Fire Geoff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Thread starter TheJoker
- Start date
talk about overpaying. thanks Geoff for letting Bonzi walk and then replacing him with John Salmons, btw i would not give someone a chance who dogged the Raptors and the Suns he seems to be a pot-head. 
I listened to the interview and he also said the following:
1) They still had money to spend to bring in an additional player.
2) They had made "multiple" offers to Bonzi that were rejected by his agent.
3) That rebounding is a weakness that will be addressed through a trade or additonal "moves" prior to the season.
1) They still had money to spend to bring in an additional player.
2) They had made "multiple" offers to Bonzi that were rejected by his agent.
3) That rebounding is a weakness that will be addressed through a trade or additonal "moves" prior to the season.
1. Hello? It was Toronto. I think location might have had something to do with Salmons' decision to opt for Sacramento instead.
2. He didn't say he used it all.
3. My daughter didn't hear that part so I don't know if he said it or not.
This isn't anywhere near the disaster some people are painting it as, IMHO.
And I can't help but think some of you are overlooking one possible consideration. It might have been that Geoff couldn't do a sign and trade for Bonzi because no one else was willing to pay what Bonzi was demanding. I think the jury may still be out on the future for Bonzi Wells. He might end up sitting next to Latrell Sprewell.
2. He didn't say he used it all.
3. My daughter didn't hear that part so I don't know if he said it or not.
This isn't anywhere near the disaster some people are painting it as, IMHO.
And I can't help but think some of you are overlooking one possible consideration. It might have been that Geoff couldn't do a sign and trade for Bonzi because no one else was willing to pay what Bonzi was demanding. I think the jury may still be out on the future for Bonzi Wells. He might end up sitting next to Latrell Sprewell.
I don't think $5M a year is very much in this league, anymore. Yeah, it's the MLE, but the MLE is use or lose. If you think he is worth $5M this year, why wouldn't he be worth $5M for the next 4 years as well? I just don't think it's a bad deal, particularly when it is only $2M more, aggregate, than what Toronto is offering. The same Toronto that now has Bryan Colangelo at the helm.
Wow, interesting to see how much everyone knows about Salmons impending failure.
Interesting how Bryan Coangelo and Geoff Petrie (2 of the best minds in basketball) have both wiffed so badly this offseason on Salmons.
Afterall, the fans always use the best perspective. We've made a number of great predictions:
- I remember how badly we screwed up letting Tony Delk go, that guy had a great playoff series. Instead we signed an inconsistent, selfish PG who had already been let go by two teams in two years named Bobby Jackson.
- I remember how we wiffed in the draft, getting a Serbian shooter who we could only watch on grainy footage and who didn't even know how to bend his new Kings cap instead of NCAA tournament legend John Wallace.
- We really screwed up spending 10 million a year on Vlade Divac. Webber, Peja, Williams, etc. gave us enough offense, what we needed was defence and rookie sensation Michael Stewart gave us plenty of that and for much cheaper.
- Trading Bonzi was a mistake, BJax was the heart of the team and Bonzi feuded with his coaches in Portland and Vancouver.
This list actually goes on for awhile. A lot of people have criticized a lot of Petrie moves. Yet somehow after being an elite team, we have avoided the 10 year playoff drought that most teams have after their elite period and are rebuilding while still making the playoffs. Give Petrie his due and some trust. Realize that Bryan frickin Coangelo was after this player before we signed him. He's young, plays good D, can score, pass, and is a solid rebounder.
Nothing personal to anyone here, but I'm going with Petrie on this one.
Interesting how Bryan Coangelo and Geoff Petrie (2 of the best minds in basketball) have both wiffed so badly this offseason on Salmons.
Afterall, the fans always use the best perspective. We've made a number of great predictions:
- I remember how badly we screwed up letting Tony Delk go, that guy had a great playoff series. Instead we signed an inconsistent, selfish PG who had already been let go by two teams in two years named Bobby Jackson.
- I remember how we wiffed in the draft, getting a Serbian shooter who we could only watch on grainy footage and who didn't even know how to bend his new Kings cap instead of NCAA tournament legend John Wallace.
- We really screwed up spending 10 million a year on Vlade Divac. Webber, Peja, Williams, etc. gave us enough offense, what we needed was defence and rookie sensation Michael Stewart gave us plenty of that and for much cheaper.
- Trading Bonzi was a mistake, BJax was the heart of the team and Bonzi feuded with his coaches in Portland and Vancouver.
This list actually goes on for awhile. A lot of people have criticized a lot of Petrie moves. Yet somehow after being an elite team, we have avoided the 10 year playoff drought that most teams have after their elite period and are rebuilding while still making the playoffs. Give Petrie his due and some trust. Realize that Bryan frickin Coangelo was after this player before we signed him. He's young, plays good D, can score, pass, and is a solid rebounder.
Nothing personal to anyone here, but I'm going with Petrie on this one.
Ever been to Toronto? Only if Salmons is afraid of Canadiens.
But not the point. No matter how afraid of Canadiens he is, John Salmons, scrub deluxe, did NOT just leave millions upon millions of $$ on the table to go become a King. The contract is surely in the neighborhood.
NBA.com - The Sacramento Kings signed free agent guard John Salmons to a multi-year contract, it was announced by Kings’ President of Basketball Operations Geoff Petrie. The deal is speculated to use the Kings full mid-level exception
John Salmons himself is not a disaster. He's not good or bad enough to be a disaser. His contract however can be PARt fo a disaster, and the whole situation gets reduced to this:
1) you lose Bonzi
2) you are unable to use Bonzi in an S&T to bring back talent
3) you overpay for Salmons
4) because of all fo the above you also do not have any money to sign a free agent big man
Now add that all up, and if that's not disaster, then it is pretty darn close to worst case scenario.
But not the point. No matter how afraid of Canadiens he is, John Salmons, scrub deluxe, did NOT just leave millions upon millions of $$ on the table to go become a King. The contract is surely in the neighborhood.
NBA.com - The Sacramento Kings signed free agent guard John Salmons to a multi-year contract, it was announced by Kings’ President of Basketball Operations Geoff Petrie. The deal is speculated to use the Kings full mid-level exception
John Salmons himself is not a disaster. He's not good or bad enough to be a disaser. His contract however can be PARt fo a disaster, and the whole situation gets reduced to this:
1) you lose Bonzi
2) you are unable to use Bonzi in an S&T to bring back talent
3) you overpay for Salmons
4) because of all fo the above you also do not have any money to sign a free agent big man
Now add that all up, and if that's not disaster, then it is pretty darn close to worst case scenario.
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Im still kind of speechless, but Im not heading for my local cliff to take the leap just yet.
However, John Salmons isn't exactly to much of as spring chicken...He's gonna be 27 this year.
He has career averages of 5/2/2.
Maybe if he was like 23/24 we could hope for a poor mans Borris Diaw, but at 27 how much more improving can there be?
Lets play compare...
Numbers...
Trevor Ariza --- 22 years old...5pts, 4rebs, 1ast
John Salmons --- 26 years old...7pts, 3rebs, 3 ast
Cost...
Trevor Ariza --- Not exactly a line of teams offering the full MLE.
John Salmons --- 5 mil/year
Im not jumping off the cliff, but that doesnt change the fact that the signing is not smart...While Im ranting, I'll make my list...
Here's who I would rather have before John Salmons...
Jared Jefferies
Trevor Ariza
Jumaine Jones
Qyntel Woods
DeShawn Stevenson
Fred Jones
Matt Barnes
And Im done.
However, John Salmons isn't exactly to much of as spring chicken...He's gonna be 27 this year.
He has career averages of 5/2/2.
Maybe if he was like 23/24 we could hope for a poor mans Borris Diaw, but at 27 how much more improving can there be?
Lets play compare...
Numbers...
Trevor Ariza --- 22 years old...5pts, 4rebs, 1ast
John Salmons --- 26 years old...7pts, 3rebs, 3 ast
Cost...
Trevor Ariza --- Not exactly a line of teams offering the full MLE.
John Salmons --- 5 mil/year
Im not jumping off the cliff, but that doesnt change the fact that the signing is not smart...While Im ranting, I'll make my list...
Here's who I would rather have before John Salmons...
Jared Jefferies
Trevor Ariza
Jumaine Jones
Qyntel Woods
DeShawn Stevenson
Fred Jones
Matt Barnes
And Im done.
Is Toronto even remotely looking at a playoff scenario?
Sorry, Bricklayer, but I'm not buying your argument. AND, for the record, I was told - and posted somewhere - that the Kings did NOT use the full exception.
I'm not going to panic; I'm not going to call for Petrie's head; I'm not going to try and outguess him without having all the facts.
What I am going to do is wait and see what else happens.
Sorry, Bricklayer, but I'm not buying your argument. AND, for the record, I was told - and posted somewhere - that the Kings did NOT use the full exception.
I'm not going to panic; I'm not going to call for Petrie's head; I'm not going to try and outguess him without having all the facts.
What I am going to do is wait and see what else happens.
Exactly my take on this. I'm not upset about Salmons in particular...and losing Bonzi is something I can live with. But to overpay (edit: I'll wait to see if we used the full MLE) for a player who really doesn't fill any particular need instead of addressing the one true need you DO have is simply crazy. ANY of the available free-agent bigs would have been way better than this.
Ok, I'll take your word on the money, but don't act like he's more of a know entity than BJx. Jackson had played more seasons and had more consistent minutes. Salmons had played three years and been jerked around in Philly. Anyway, those GMs in Toronto and Phoenix aren't exactly slouches, so there must be something to him. It's not as if we lured Salmons away from the Warriors and Hawks!
I've been more fired up about other moves in the past, but I'm not totally down on GP or the Kings for this one. On the brite side. Brian Colangelo was after this guy and GP got him. That's two of the best basketball minds in the league and I think they are both very good judges of talent. We'll see.
This is a salient point, and I don't understand why people are trying to compare this to the Jackson acquisition on based on this alone. Jackson played major minutes his rookie season, and averaged 11.6 points in 30.0 minutes. After that, he got significantly reduced minutes playing in Minnesota, and his numbers dropped appreciably, but you could still make the case that he hadn't proven himself: after all, he'd only had one good year, playing for a bottom-feeding Denver team, and then averaged 5.9 points in about 16 minutes for a playoff team.
Salmons, on the other hand, is most definitely a known commodity. He was a "chalupa squad" player in his rookie season, and then became a rotation player for Phila. And, as a rotation player, he averaged 5.9 points in twenty-one and a half minutes! To paraphrase Uncle Lew, there's a big **** difference between putting up six points in 16 minutes and putting up 6 points in 22 minutes.
Whereas there was some question about Jackson, we've pretty much seen what Salmons is capable of. This isn't a Kevin Martin "just give him playing time, and you'll see what he can really do" situation; this guy's had playing time. He's not that good, and he's not likely to get much better.
Salmons, on the other hand, is most definitely a known commodity. He was a "chalupa squad" player in his rookie season, and then became a rotation player for Phila. And, as a rotation player, he averaged 5.9 points in twenty-one and a half minutes! To paraphrase Uncle Lew, there's a big **** difference between putting up six points in 16 minutes and putting up 6 points in 22 minutes.
Whereas there was some question about Jackson, we've pretty much seen what Salmons is capable of. This isn't a Kevin Martin "just give him playing time, and you'll see what he can really do" situation; this guy's had playing time. He's not that good, and he's not likely to get much better.
Vince Carter didn't like it in Canada. It wasn't his home country and he missed being back in the USA.
I did a quick new CBA check and some calcs, and it appears that VF21 is correct.
If the deal is indeed $25 mil over 5 years, that is less than the full MLE.
The full MLE would start at a salary of $5.215 million and earn 8% raises. That comes to $30.6 million total, if my engineering skills haven't left me.
A starting salary of $4.0 million and 8% raises would result in a total 5-year contract of $23.5 million.
So it looks like Salmons got most of the MLE, not all of it.
I did a quick new CBA check and some calcs, and it appears that VF21 is correct.
If the deal is indeed $25 mil over 5 years, that is less than the full MLE.
The full MLE would start at a salary of $5.215 million and earn 8% raises. That comes to $30.6 million total, if my engineering skills haven't left me.
A starting salary of $4.0 million and 8% raises would result in a total 5-year contract of $23.5 million.
So it looks like Salmons got most of the MLE, not all of it.
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Minutes in Phill the last three years:
03-04 20.8 24 starts
04-05 17.1 8 starts
05-06 25.1 24 starts
Thsi is neither an unknown entity, nor a guy crying out for minutes. Its...John Salmons. 5pts 2reb 2ast John Salmons. In major minutes.
Just for comparison, these are Eddie House's numbers last year:
17.5min 9.8ppg 1.6reb 1.8ast
And career: 7.3ppg 1.6reb 1.7ast
MLE for House anybody? Anybody?
That's a terrible comparison. Philly plays more of a slow it down game whereas Phoenix is the epitome of a running team, put Salmons on the Suns and his stats would be significantly higher.
Also, i wouldn't call him a known quantity. He's only played 3 years and is just now entering his prime years. There's no way that BJ was less of a known quantity. They were drafted with similar picks (23 v 26), were approximatley the same age and similar accomplishments. Now I'm not saying that Salmons' game or results will be identical to BJ, but I think that GM's like Petrie and Coangelo are good judges of talent and know there is potential that can be tapped.
And if the signing is for 5 million, it really isn't that far off what BJ was signed for when you consider that the salary cap has gone up nearly 20 million since then and the MLE is worth more as well.
Also, i wouldn't call him a known quantity. He's only played 3 years and is just now entering his prime years. There's no way that BJ was less of a known quantity. They were drafted with similar picks (23 v 26), were approximatley the same age and similar accomplishments. Now I'm not saying that Salmons' game or results will be identical to BJ, but I think that GM's like Petrie and Coangelo are good judges of talent and know there is potential that can be tapped.
And if the signing is for 5 million, it really isn't that far off what BJ was signed for when you consider that the salary cap has gone up nearly 20 million since then and the MLE is worth more as well.