Eric Paschall/Vlade’s drafting

tyguy said:
You draft big men for defense, that’s where the vast majority of them show their value. It was beyond foolish to draft a big man with a top pick without a defensive pedigree when there was a big wing with an elite offensive skill set available.
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This is why I wanted to trade down and take Wendell Carter if Doncic wasn't available. I knew Bagley was going to be able to score but teams with poor defensive big men aren't successful very often. You create a situation defensively like we had with Cousins. The Warriors have the unicorn of all unicorns in Draymond, which is why they've been so successful. He allows them to play a plethora of different lineups out there where we are shoe horned into playing Bagley at the 4 unless he improves his defense a ton.
 
ESP47 said:
This is why I wanted to trade down and take Wendell Carter if Doncic wasn't available. I knew Bagley was going to be able to score but teams with poor defensive big men aren't successful very often. You create a situation defensively like we had with Cousins. The Warriors have the unicorn of all unicorns in Draymond, which is why they've been so successful. He allows them to play a plethora of different lineups out there where we are shoe horned into playing Bagley at the 4 unless he improves his defense a ton.
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Do you consider Jokic a good defender?
 
LPKingsFan said:
He could have gone Collins at 15 and OG at 20, but I’m not sure this is a healthy or helpful exercise.
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Not trying to do a single draft. Their were other options at SF and center/PF. I picked them because the played the same positions as the players we drafted. But I would agree you need to look at the body of work in total. So far, and the books not completely closed, it is hard to say it’s trending in a positive direction.
 
Gguod said:
Bad drafting is a good way to remain bad. This franchise is a good example on that.

First of all IMO Willy didnt "fit a need". Our franchise player was a center. I dont see how our need was a center with zero outside game.

There was also a long discussion on our 2nd round picks last draft. At the time it looked very bad, at this moment it looks very bad and it will probably be very bad in the future too. A popular argument was that 2nd round picks doesnt matter. Its a bad argument because its an opportunity to find cost controlled contributors (that are also trade assets). Its certainly bad if you constantly miss on them or trade them for money (that just goes to the owners pockets). When your team trades them for money, fans should almost always be furious.
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Paschall a perfect example already 6 games into his career. He won't be this good and the scoring won't stay this efficient, but he has all the makings of a future long-term NBA rotational player, with potential to be more (as he's shown early this year).

Vlade's had enough time to where I think we can adequately evaluate his drafting prowess. The amount of misses is just staggering:

WCS-6th pick (Didn't resign after rookie deal)
Papagiannias- 13th pick (Gone after 1.5 years)
Trading out of 10 (Zach Collins, Mitchell available) for:
Justin Jackson-15th pick (gone after 1.5 years)
Harry Giles- 20th pick (more than likely gone after 3 years.)
Malachi Richardison-22nd pick (gone after 1.5 years)
Skal Labissiere-28th pick (gone after 2.5 years)
Frank Mason-34th pick (gone after 2 years)
Lost the 14th pick in the 2018 draft for cap space.
Lost 2 spots of draft equity in the 2017 draft going from 3 to 5 due to a pick swap for cap space.
Gave up 8 spots of equity in this year's 2nd round for cash.

Hits:
DeAaron Fox
Traded 37 in 2018 for 2 future 2nds (one became Justin James, other is Miami's 2021 2nd)

Up for debate:
Marvin Bagley (with the obvious caveat that Luka is well on his way to being an MVP-caliber player and he didn't get any additional value like the Hawks did for passing on him).

Can't evaluate:
2019 class

I mean yikes. Hard to believe you'd find a worse drafting record in the past 4 seasons than that. 5 first round picks didn't play out their rookie deal, we didn't resign the 6th overall pick after his rookie deal, traded away another first for cap space. What's a little staggering and frankly unacceptable looking back at this is we've basically invested nothing in the 2nd round trying to find good, cheap, cost-controlled rotational players.
 
Why is it that a faction of KINGS fans always have to start and pile on in threads like this?

Now Vlade is an idiot for not taking Eric Paschall? SMH.

If everyone knew the dude would be good, he wouldn't have lasted until selection 41.

The continued revisionist history that goes on around here is beyond maddening. Anyone can look at any draft in history and identify the players that were missed or that their team should have drafted. It's not hard.

Unfortunately these franchises and GM's have to make a decision w/o the benefit of knowing how it's all going to work out! That's much, much harder. When they hit, they look smart. When they don't, they look incompetent.

I mean, it'd be like being at a roulette table and your friend bets all his $$$ on his favorite #32 and once it lands on #17 you say "you should have bet on 17!". SMH.

FWIW, a dozen NBA teams passed on Paschall multiple times. Including the San Antonio Spurs. Even Golden State passed on him 1st time around. They could have had him at #28 instead of Jordan Poole. Philly passed on him 3x.

Are they all idiots too?

Every single year we have to deal with this revisionist nonsense.
 
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I’m not going to slam Vlade for not taking Paschal. I will slam him for taking New JJ, who’s pick, when in the crapshoot second round, shocked the panel into dumbfounded silence, had no video ready if I recall, and they only said “.... uhhh, he likes to dance.” Before moving on to something that mattered.
 
SLAB said:
I’m not going to slam Vlade for not taking Paschal. I will slam him for taking New JJ, who’s pick, when in the crapshoot second round, shocked the panel into dumbfounded silence, had no video ready if I recall, and they only said “.... uhhh, he likes to dance.” Before moving on to something that mattered.
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Blame him for Papagiannis too. And the Philly trade. And the pick that must not be named.

Even if you remove all the hindsight picks, his drafting is still really, really, really, really, really bad.
 
Kingster said:
It's interesting to me that so many point out defensive deficiencies of Bagley, while strangely the discussion of Doncic's defense is the sound of one hand clapping. I wonder why? Bagley at least has the athleticism to be a very good defender in the future. But Doncic? Is he the model of the two-way player? I know. You can see the inner Kawhi in there somewhere. I can see how people might be jumping on the Doncic Dallas bandwagon after beating those noteworthy teams like the Wizards, Pelicans, Cavaliers and Magic and achieving second place in the West. After they play the next two games, the Knicks and the Grizzlies, possibly producing a 7-2 record, pandemonium could break out in Doncic Dallas land. Banners will be unfurled. Trumpets will blare. Twitter will explode. Championship here we come!:D It's a long season, folks. Those who bash Bagley as a means to vent their frustration about missing out on the Second Coming should give it a rest. At least until we're in the latter half of the 82 game season.
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Doncic is posting 26/10/9. You live with it if he can't play defense. Also, as big wing who can play multiple positions, he's easier to hide. If your big is abysmal at defense, your entire team is gonna get lit up inside. There's a reason players like Kanter, as a 20/10er, could never make it off the bench of multiple teams.

But I'll concede you two points! It is way too early to make anything of the records (and screw rooting for the Mavs - ick).

And I do agree that bashing Bagley solves nothing. That's why I bash Vlade. ;)

We'll see what happens when Bags gets back. I'm actually rooting for him to shut up my (justified/obnoxious) whining about the pick. I'm a Kings fan first and foremost. Just a LITTLE bit irked lately.
 
gunks said:
Doncic is posting 26/10/9. You live with it if he can't play defense. Also, as big wing who can play multiple positions, he's easier to hide. If your big is abysmal at defense, your entire team is gonna get lit up inside. There's a reason players like Kanter, as a 20/10er, could never make it off the bench of multiple teams.

But I'll concede you two points! It is way too early to make anything of the records (and screw rooting for the Mavs - ick).

And I do agree that bashing Bagley solves nothing. That's why I bash Vlade. ;)

We'll see what happens when Bags gets back. I'm actually rooting for him to shut up my (justified/obnoxious) whining about the pick. I'm a Kings fan first and foremost. Just a LITTLE bit irked lately.
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kids averaging 26-9-7 since last all star break I don’t wanna hear about his defense. Like you said as long as he’s not a big or a small PG like Young or IT he can be hidden.
 
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Honestly I can’t blame Vlade for too much outside of Luka which by itself is a fireable offense.
Besides that all this talk is mostly 20/20 Vision he did a decent job especially grabbing Fox hell I was one of the guys who wanted to package 5 and 10 for Fultz. That would’ve been a fatal to our rebuild as would Phoenix taking Fox ahead of us forcing us to take Jackson
 
The Effort Police said:
Blame him for Papagiannis too. And the Philly trade. And the pick that must not be named.

Even if you remove all the hindsight picks, his drafting is still really, really, really, really, really bad.
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Nonsense. GMing is really hard. You and I couldn't come close to the performance of missing on 6 1st round picks, passing on Luka, trading a 1st round pick for cap space. Show some respect.
 
Joshoua said:
Honestly I can’t blame Vlade for too much outside of Luka which by itself is a fireable offense.
Besides that all this talk is mostly 20/20 Vision he did a decent job especially grabbing Fox hell I was one of the guys who wanted to package 5 and 10 for Fultz. That would’ve been a fatal to our rebuild as would Phoenix taking Fox ahead of us forcing us to take Jackson
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you and I have gotten into it over the L-word pick multiple times but I appreciate your intellectual honesty.

Things look obvious now but before last season’s draft there was talk about this being the year with four “can’t miss” prospects worthy of being the 1st overall pick with Trae also being worthy of discussion as the best pound for pound pick of the class.

Before the internet, people would have been more willing to wait a bit before having these discussions but now everything is either the best thing ever or pure garbage that needs to be set ablaze.
Is Luka currently winning the race? Definitely. But the NBA draft isn’t a 40 yard sprint. Even if Luka winds up as the best player in his class, that doesn’t mean the Kings necessarily lost the draft in the same way that winning silver at the Olympics doesn’t mean you suck.

Also the people getting worked up about passing on Paschall should probably keep in mind that Kevin Martin was kept off our playoff roster his rookie season, De’Aaron looked bad for long stretches of his rookie season, and it once seemed like we won the J-Will draft because the two HoFers drafted after him didn’t look great to start their careers. The draft isn’t just a crapshoot, it’s also chicken farming and some eggs develop into strong roosters while others wither and never hatch.
 
Tetsujin said:
you and I have gotten into it over the L-word pick multiple times but I appreciate your intellectual honesty.

Things look obvious now but before last season’s draft there was talk about this being the year with four “can’t miss” prospects worthy of being the 1st overall pick with Trae also being worthy of discussion as the best pound for pound pick of the class.

Before the internet, people would have been more willing to wait a bit before having these discussions but now everything is either the best thing ever or pure garbage that needs to be set ablaze.
Is Luka currently winning the race? Definitely. But the NBA draft isn’t a 40 yard sprint. Even if Luka winds up as the best player in his class, that doesn’t mean the Kings necessarily lost the draft in the same way that winning silver at the Olympics doesn’t mean you suck.

Also the people getting worked up about passing on Paschall should probably keep in mind that Kevin Martin was kept off our playoff roster his rookie season, De’Aaron looked bad for long stretches of his rookie season, and it once seemed like we won the J-Will draft because the two HoFers drafted after him didn’t look great to start their careers. The draft isn’t just a crapshoot, it’s also chicken farming and some eggs develop into strong roosters while others wither and never hatch.
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As the OP I would say getting worked up is a stretch. But people I know in the league laughed when we drafted James almost as much as PappaG. Too be fair, as I have said in every post, it’s too soon for a final judgement but looking at the 16 and 17 picks is fair game and the 18-19 picks can be used as some context.

At this point, it’s pretty hard to say Vlade has delivered any kind of average not to mention above average results.
 
Joshoua said:
kids averaging 26-9-7 since last all star break I don’t wanna hear about his defense. Like you said as long as he’s not a big or a small PG like Young or IT he can be hidden.
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While I like Luka more than Bagley, I will wait for both to play in the PO, before the final judgment. You might hide bad defender in the regular season and 1st round of PO, but against elite teams, a bad defender will be exposed.
 
SLAB said:
I will slam him for taking New JJ, who’s pick, when in the crapshoot second round, shocked the panel into dumbfounded silence, had no video ready if I recall, and they only said “.... uhhh, he likes to dance.” Before moving on to something that mattered.
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Honest question, if in a couple seasons new JJ develops into a good player, will you consider not prejudging players / draft selections this soon into a career?

Joshoua said:
Honestly I can’t blame Vlade for too much outside of Luka which by itself is a fireable offense.
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Yeah, I'm done having patience with that decision. It's only been 1 full season and a handful of games, but with MB3's latest 6 week injury and #77's continued superb play even after an off-season of opponents scouting against him -- I've officially reverted back to my original stance.

I just hope MB3 can put this injury crap behind him and develop into some type of impact player to help mitigate the damage at least a little bit.

But truth is the KINGS don't have a player on the roster they can hand the ball to down the stretch and realistically expect him to rescue them. #77 would have been that player for them.

Merely having good players for the first 46 minutes isn't enough. They need a player that can carry the final 2 -- especially if they ever reach the postseason.
 
The_Jamal said:
I mean yikes. Hard to believe you'd find a worse drafting record in the past 4 seasons than that. 5 first round picks didn't play out their rookie deal, we didn't resign the 6th overall pick after his rookie deal, traded away another first for cap space. What's a little staggering and frankly unacceptable looking back at this is we've basically invested nothing in the 2nd round trying to find good, cheap, cost-controlled rotational players.
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Charlotte and Orlando’s drafts haven’t been stellar. And that’s just 2 off the top of my head
 
dude12 said:
Keyboard coaches now moving to being keyboard GM’s. Always an entertaining read.
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How long has it been since the Kings have even sniffed the playoffs? And do the playoffs look within reach with this team? Blows my mind that some here act incredulous that people would dare question the job vlade is doing........like we are questioning Masai Ujiri. We aren't talking about a team that is on the verge of something big here. This team has been stepping on their **** going on what, a decade and a half, and I feel pretty confidently saying that that isn't gonna change anytime soon.

Id trust some here at KF to do a better job than vlade has done up to now.
 
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sactowndog said:
Anyone else notice how well he is playing and the Warriors drafted him after the Kings picked Justin James. The jury may still be out on Vlade’s draft and develop acumen but right now it’s hard to say it’s looking good.

2016 WCS. Off the team
2017. Pappa G, Richardson, Skal. (All off team)
2018. Fox, Jackson (over Anunoby), Giles (over Collins)
2019 Bagley (over Luka)
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The biggest mistake wasn't Luca, It was taking Giles and Justin Jackson over Donovan Mitchell.
 
gunks said:
I agree that you can't blame him on WCS, he was (seemingly) BPA and fit a need.

Fox was a no brainer. One could argue Vlade lucked out and he "fell" to us.

Vlade has pretty much blown every other pick. Last year's being the most egregious **** up.
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What about the Papa pick lol
 
King Baller said:
Are you guys seriously going back through every draft using 20/20 hindsight to judge Vlade's picks?

This could be done with every GM who ever worked in the NBA:) Except Rod Thorn who was the GM of the Bulls when MJ was drafted.
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Most NBA teams were not terrible every single season with the only reward being a top ten pick. In our situation you cannot afford major screwups over and over in the draft. Vlade's chance to build this franchise was on the draft
 
KingsFanNSouth said:
The biggest mistake wasn't Luca, It was taking Giles and Justin Jackson over Donovan Mitchell.
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Or a number of other potential impact players: both Collins, Anunoby, Bam, Kuzma, Allen, Deerrick White. The problem with wasting those picks is so many other good options were available.
 
sactowndog said:
Or a number of other potential impact players: both Collins, Anunoby, Bam, Kuzma, Allen, Deerrick White. The problem with wasting those picks is so many other good options were available.
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Correct, I just mention Donovan Mitchell because as of right now I don't feel like we have a star player who can take over a game, like he can. Wasting picks is what Vlade does best. How about the Papa pick? Geez what a joke
 
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