A Decade of Picks. Good Riddance

#31
Like you, I didn't like it the time (wanted an actual PG), nor do I like it in retrospect, but this thread's only about the last decade, so it's kind of outside of scope.
I get it......but Beverly and Rubio are still playing at a high level. Not to mention Curry will come back most likely and continue to be an All Star.
 
#32
This is fair. But I hope that you can understand that there are other options between that and "burying your head in the sand"? Rooting for the team in the present doesn't require a fan to continue to be mad about the past.
Oh I agree there's middle ground, but some people here seem to think that the current level of criticism, which is justified IMO, is beyond the pale and that people who want change are somehow not fans of the team. That's what I was commenting on. Those people who point out issues aren't part of the problem of creating a toxic pessimism. The reality since 2001 has done that.

I don't agree with this. To borrow an expression, some people have the ability to find beauty in the little things. Without getting too off-topic, I can't imagine that my ancestors could have survived in America, if this were not possible... If anything, I find it incredulous how much crossover there is between people who advocate strongly for moving on from events that had (and continue to have) catastrophic real life effects on real people, and those who can't let go of anything when it comes to something as trivial as sports. Like, it's frightening how much of those two circles overlap on the Venn diagram.
I'm more than willing to "forget the past" as soon as the present isn't a repeat of it. Look at the warriors. They sucked until they did not. It doesn't mean the real hardcore fans of the team thought "maybe, just maybe next year will be our year". They likely had little hope of that level of success until success happened. They drafted All-Stars and won championships. That is what changes people's minds. "Winning cures all woes" or something to that effect. So I will drop the past (just as I have in 2001) as soon as I can pick something else up.

To add onto that, I had that feeling last year. The team was on the upswing. They surprised a lot of people. They started winning. They were in the playoff hunt. THAT changed people's minds. Demarcus "who"? Sneaky Pete "who"? All the crap we dealt with the last few years was ignored because Fox was lighting it up and the Kings were staring at a low seed spot. It is this dumpster fire of a season following up that invigorating season is what totally let the air out of the fanbase, and I believe that to be primarily due to a new coach and system rather than just injuries.

It is extremely challenging to watch other teams go through an entire rebuild cycle and back into the playoffs within the time the Kings have tried to reach .500 (and failed).
 
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Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#33
You mean moving on like you did? Which is to just quit being a fan of the team?
That's just where my path led me. I will stipulate that it's disappointing that you think the only path to moving on from your frustration is to stop rooting for the team.

I did so, in part, because the tribalism aspect that binds most fans to their teams is something that I never had in the first place. Bottom line is that the "name on the front" never really meant that much to me, so "divorcing" myself from the team after being disatisfied with how I saw some of the players I liked being treated was a lot easier than it would be for someone for whom being "from Sac" was part of their identity. I don't think that you have to quit the team in order to move on, but processing the sort of bad management by the franchise is kind of like going through the five stages of grief, and I can't walk anybody else through that.
 
#34
There was a big uproar about Jimmer.

Tyreke is a different case because he was dominant. You can't blame anyone for that pick because it looked to be the right pick at that spot. Hindsight is always 20/20 but at the time there weren't a ton of complaints because he looked like a jump shot away from being James Harden with defense.
Turned out Jimmer's skills did not translate to the NBA. Tyreke was one dimensional and always a charge away from foul trouble. Until the NBA figured him out it was a thing of beauty to watch him drive the lanes. I did see him figure out the shooting much later on, even hitting the 3 his last couple of seasons. But My point is Rubio and Beverly are still contributing at a significant level.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
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#35
Oh I agree there's middle ground, but some people here seem to think that the current level of criticism, which is justified IMO, is beyond the pale and that people who want change are somehow not fans of the team. That's what I was commenting on. Those people who point out issues aren't part of the problem of creating a toxic pessimism...
That's how you look at it. The way they look at it is, they acknowledge what has gone wrong, but they also want to enjoy the good that there is to find, and then there are a bunch of people who are very loudly, and very aggressively, more or less demanding, "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE!"


I'm more than willing to "forget the past" as soon as the present isn't a repeat of it. Look at the warriors. They sucked until they did not. It doesn't mean the real hardcore fans of the team thought "maybe, just maybe next year will be our year". They likely had little hope of that level of success until success happened...

... It is extremely challenging to watch other teams go through an entire rebuild cycle and back into the playoffs within the time the Kings have tried to reach .500 (and failed).
Did you ever consider the possibility that your fan experience might be better if you weren't looking at it through the filter of comparing what you have to what "the Joneses" have?
 
#36
That's how you look at it. The way they look at it is, they acknowledge what has gone wrong, but they also want to enjoy the good that there is to find, and then there are a bunch of people who are very loudly, and very aggressively, more or less demanding, "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE!"
All of them acknowledge what has gone wrong? That's not true. There are a vocal set of posters on here that seem to refuse that anything has gone wrong and question the fandom of anybody who dares question or besmirch the organization. Of course as you mentioned the opposite is also true.

In any event, what do you care? You've made it known you are not a fan of the team anymore. Now you're in here sticking up for the perpetual optimist fans when you cut bait. And yes I know you'll now spin that into two paragraphs of weird rationalizing......but the bottom line is you were a fan of the team and the bad decisions of the team (such as failing Cousins and then trading him) made you no longer a fan of the team.
 
#37
That's how you look at it. The way they look at it is, they acknowledge what has gone wrong, but they also want to enjoy the good that there is to find, and then there are a bunch of people who are very loudly, and very aggressively, more or less demanding, "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE!"
Thats not true. People who criticize current FO dont question other peoples fandom, age or intelligence. They dont tell anyone to stop liking something. However there is stuff liked this said to them that criticize this franchise:

Some people on here are behaving like absolute children, and the reaction to me making a logical point during this hysteria is a sign that people are really just looking to satisfy an emotional need for a scapegoat.
I did. Because I'm a Kings fan and like being optimistic. You sound like a child who didn't get what he wanted for Christmas
No, there arent anyone telling people "stop liking this", however there are posts like those above and people calling other posters "trolls" for criticizing something this franchise did wrong.
 
#39
So, the difficulty is that it isn't something that happened, has ended, and there's potential to move onward. It is something that has happened, and is ongoing. It is continuous. It is the disease of incompetence. So, we want to move on, but we recognize that in order to do so, it requires competence. How likely is it that this front office and the franchise does that without a leadership change? That's the question. So yes, there has been things in the past that have happened and that's water under the bridge. However, if there's still the same troll under the bridge, perhaps we need to deal with that before being able to move on.

In order to look forward to something (aka hope), there's the element of anticipating a change from the past and status quo. So when the past keeps repeating itself and nothing is changing, I don't think acknowledging it is somehow a viewpoint that is always in the rear view mirror. It is looking into the future and seeing no reason to expect a different future than the past, at least without significant changes. So I'd ultimately ask the Kings to give us a reason to hope, because this last decade has all but spent the reserves of many fans.

As for me, I don't expect a different future unless that change happens, and I believe that change must include getting competent leadership in the front office.
Aptly said.
 
#40
Did you ever consider the possibility that your fan experience might be better if you weren't looking at it through the filter of comparing what you have to what "the Joneses" have?
1. No, because this is directly competitive sport. The concept is to compete against other teams. The idea of "opponents" aka "The Joneses" is inherent. If you don't like considering the competition, perhaps gymnastics or figure skating is more your style. When you compete directly against another athlete or team of athletes, competition is going to be in the mix.

2. Even if we were to somehow remove the idea of the opposing teams, are you asking me to enjoy the product that we've had? I enjoy a loss if the team executes and puts in effort in a respectable way and just gets out-performed. That's an entertaining game to many, albeit disappointing to a degree. But this team and these past several years have only had one season to get excited about, and that isn't this season. So yeah, I can enjoy a basketball game when it looks like a Division 2 team couldn't come in an put up a fight against the Kings.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
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#41
All of them acknowledge what has gone wrong? That's not true. There are a vocal set of posters on here that seem to refuse that anything has gone wrong and question the fandom of anybody who dares question or besmirch the organization.
I think that it is closer to true than it is untrue. The problem, from my perspective, is that you have decided that there are only a select number of key phrases that people can use to express that they acknowledge what has gone wrong, and if people don't use those phrases, then to you it's "proof" that they are blind to everything that's happened. Like, if a poster doesn't open each post with a disclaimer of "Yes, the team sucks, but..." then they "refuse" to acknowledge that anything has gone wrong.

In any event, what do you care? You've made it known you are not a fan of the team anymore. Now you're in here sticking up for the perpetual optimist fans when you cut bait. And yes I know you'll now spin that into two paragraphs of weird rationalizing....
I don't need to spin ****. The explanation is simple: KingsFans.com is my online "home," whether I'm a fan of the team or not. I care about what's happening on this message board a lot more than I've ever cared about what's happening with the team. I've got twenty years of equity into this place, and what goes on (and how it goes on) around here matters to me.

And, as a matter of pure self-interest, I come down on the "side," for lack of a more accurate way to describe it, of a level of discourse that make my job as a mod easier.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
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#42
Thats not true. People who criticize current FO dont question other peoples fandom, age or intelligence. They dont tell anyone to stop liking something. However there is stuff liked this said to them that criticize this franchise:

If you think that posts like
I love how, somehow, fans who recognize what the franchise does and is doing are somehow at fault. So if we all bury our heads in the sand, then we can be happy? That's the definition of "ignorance is bliss". So I suppose you are right. If we just ignore everything, there won't be anything to complain about!
don't count as questioning other people's fandom or intelligence, then you and I are working from two very different definitions of the word "question."
 
#43
Turned out Jimmer's skills did not translate to the NBA. Tyreke was one dimensional and always a charge away from foul trouble. Until the NBA figured him out it was a thing of beauty to watch him drive the lanes. I did see him figure out the shooting much later on, even hitting the 3 his last couple of seasons. But My point is Rubio and Beverly are still contributing at a significant level.
Yeah I'm just saying there's a difference in taking what looks to be the right guy in the right spot and it not working out.....and taking a player like Jimmer when there are a handful of obvious selections that are much better than him.

I can forgive a GM for picking Tyreke but not for picking Jimmer or Stauskas or Papa G or Bagley over Doncic.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#45
1. No, because this is directly competitive sport. The concept is to compete against other teams. The idea of "opponents" aka "The Joneses" is inherent. If you don't like considering the competition, perhaps gymnastics or figure skating is more your style. When you compete directly against another athlete or team of athletes, competition is going to be in the mix.
But you're not the one competing. You're not required to consume the product in a way that makes winning or losing essential to your entertainment. That's just the way you've chosen.

2. Even if we were to somehow remove the idea of the opposing teams...
How the hell did you get that out of what I said?


... are you asking me to enjoy the product that we've had?
All I'm asking you to do is consider that there is more than one way to be the fan of a team, and that some people, who have found ways to be fans that are different from the way you've chosen, aren't having the difficulty enjoying rooting for the team that you appear to be having.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#46
Yeah I'm just saying there's a difference in taking what looks to be the right guy in the right spot and it not working out.....and taking a player like Jimmer when there are a handful of obvious selections that are much better than him.

I can forgive a GM for picking Tyreke but not for picking Jimmer or Stauskas or Papa G or Bagley over Doncic.
I said it before, and I'l die on this hill: a healthy Tyreke Evans was the fourth-best player in the 2009 NBA Draft, and the Kings got him with the fourth pick. The fact that the second-best player in the draft went three picks later is unfortunate, but that pick was far from terrible.
 
#47
No, my point was about how another person behaves either irresponsibly or incomepently consistently over time. And over time of this repeated behavior, hope that person will change and become responsible and competent diminishes. The reason I used that example is that many in the fanbase are losing hope and faith in Vlade and this front office, because of consistent mismanagement and incompetence in their responsibility to improve the team. So, as fans of the team, we want the Kings to succeed, but no longer believe that can happen under this leadership team.
I understood your point. My point was that if you're absolutely fed up and there is no way out of this short of firing a guy who just got a 4 year extension, then what are discussing? It's a dead end topic.

I've been a New Orleans Saints fan my whole life. That franchise was in way worse shape before they turned it around. So maybe I'm not as pessimistic and hopeless as others.

There are different perspectives on the situation and that doesn't make someone ignorant to what is happening. My specific perspective on the draft is that until this organization can show me they can develop a pick, put him in a position to succeed or even wait it out for him to reach his potential, then it doesn't really matter who we pick. So I root for the development of who we have.
 
#48
Yeah I'm just saying there's a difference in taking what looks to be the right guy in the right spot and it not working out.....and taking a player like Jimmer when there are a handful of obvious selections that are much better than him.

I can forgive a GM for picking Tyreke but not for picking Jimmer or Stauskas or Papa G or Bagley over Doncic.
I think I get what you are saying. But IMO it is all "hindsight is 20/20" after the draft. I mean in the Tyreke draft I wanted Rubio, but Curry turned out better. In the Peja draft I wanted John Wallace, GP was right that time. In that draft Steve Nash went after Peja:) Kobe was picked 13th!

How do you know who "the right guy" is? Was Kawhi the obvious selection over Jimmer? After Jimmer was chosen it went Klay Thompson, Alec Burks, the Morris twins, then Kawhi! Then Jimmy Butler went 30th and IT was the 60th pick! Seems like a crap shoot to me:/
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
#49
No, there arent anyone telling people "stop liking this", however there are posts like those above and people calling other posters "trolls" for criticizing something this franchise did wrong.
I can tell you that it is far less the criticism of the franchise that those people are pushing back against as the fact that a handful of posters have that criticism on 24/7 repeat. We get it. We know you're upset. We don't need you to tell us 75,000 times.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#50
I understood your point. My point was that if you're absolutely fed up and there is no way out of this short of firing a guy who just got a 4 year extension, then what are discussing? It's a dead end topic.
... And then there's this. A big part of the disconnect is that, to so many of the dissatisfied fans, there is no such thing as a dead end topic. And those fans tend to be the most aggressive towards other fans.
 
#51
If you think that posts like

don't count as questioning other people's fandom or intelligence, then you and I are working from two very different definitions of the word "question."
At no point did I question other people's intelligence or fandom. In fact, I was responding to (without quotes), previous comments that indicate that critical fans are somehow not real fans, or somehow are responsible for a climate of unjustified negativity.
 
#52
But you're not the one competing. You're not required to consume the product in a way that makes winning or losing essential to your entertainment. That's just the way you've chosen.

As do most fans. Some fans watch because they like the sport. These fans are in a very small minority. Some fans like a player. Some fans just like to bet. Some fans play fantasy sports. There's a lot of reasons why people watch, but the vast majority of fans support a player and/or team. The idea that we must watch NBA basketball in a vacuum where we shouldn't evaluate the competition or pay attention to what other front offices do because it isn't how you enjoy the sport is somewhat obtuse.

How the hell did you get that out of what I said?
Because you were responding to criticizm about the team by making some comments about not considering what other teams do in the league and not comparing them. So the only logical point that I could surmise on your part is that we should all just drop caring about teams and enjoy basketball for the love of the game. That simply isn't how most sports fans operate. And if we did, that lead me to my last point about the actual quality of play being garbage, so even if we had no support of a specific squad/team/club, the product isn't entertaining.


All I'm asking you to do is consider that there is more than one way to be the fan of a team,
I never said there wasn't. I'm responding to people who think criticizing the current front office somehow makes me not a fan of the Kings.


and that some people, who have found ways to be fans that are different from the way you've chosen, aren't having the difficulty enjoying rooting for the team that you appear to be having.
I don't really know what you're addressing here, because I've made no such commentary on this topic. I really don't care how you enjoy basketball. I've been discussing critics of the critics.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#53
At no point did I question other people's intelligence or fandom. In fact, I was responding to (without quotes), previous comments that indicate that critical fans are somehow not real fans, or somehow are responsible for a climate of unjustified negativity.
As I said to @Gguod, if you don't think that suggesting that fans have to " bury their heads in the sand" in order to find things to be happy about doesn't count as questioning their intelligence, then you and I don't agree on what the standard for "questioning someone's intelligence" is.
 
#54
I understood your point. My point was that if you're absolutely fed up and there is no way out of this short of firing a guy who just got a 4 year extension, then what are discussing? It's a dead end topic.
I didn't. This thread was made by a moderator after a single line questioning the fanbase about supporting Vlade. The only reason this is getting discussed is people are disagreeing on how good/bad Vlade has been, and this seems to be the bulk of the conversation.

I've been a New Orleans Saints fan my whole life. That franchise was in way worse shape before they turned it around. So maybe I'm not as pessimistic and hopeless as others.
I'm not saying the Kings will never have a winning record under Vlade. I'm simply saying that there's no "light at the end of the tunnel" as yet. There was last season, and then the coach got fired (seems to be a pattern there). So yeah, you could see a turn around with this team, and I could be wrong. But in the end, they have to prove it, and that requires time. At this point, I've just run out of patience with Vlade's FO so I'm not going to swallow my displeasure at the decisions being made and product on the floor until things turn around.

There are different perspectives on the situation and that doesn't make someone ignorant to what is happening.
I disagree. If somebody says Vlade has been a great GM and has average/above average draft history, they are ignorant. Ignorance isn't an insult, its an observation. If somebody thinks Bagley WILL BE an all star, that's ignorance. Call it blind faith, but it is still rooted in ignorance. He very well may, one day, end up at that level, but it is by no means a certainty. So I fully acknolwedge people will disagree with opinions, but those statements that people have made are not based on anything but a fandom-based optimism. And that's great if they have it, but it doesn't keep others from pointing out their rose colored glasses.

My specific perspective on the draft is that until this organization can show me they can develop a pick, put him in a position to succeed or even wait it out for him to reach his potential, then it doesn't really matter who we pick. So I root for the development of who we have.
I've expressed the same sentiment and agree 100%.
 
#55
As I said to @Gguod, if you don't think that suggesting that fans have to " bury their heads in the sand" in order to find things to be happy about doesn't count as questioning their intelligence, then you and I don't agree on what the standard for "questioning someone's intelligence" is.
You're not considering the context of that comment.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#56
"And if your friends most fans jumped off a bridge..."

The idea that we must watch NBA basketball in a vacuum where we shouldn't evaluate the competition or pay attention to what other front offices do because it isn't how you enjoy the sport is somewhat obtuse.
I continue to be perplexed at the notion that this is what you're getting out of what I am saying, and I don't think that I'm the one being obtuse here. I am not saying that you should change the way you consume sports-as-entertainment to reflect the way that I do, because it works for me. I am saying that you should consider changing the way you consume sports-as-entertainment, because the way that you've chosen to consume sports-as-entertainment is not working for you. You've as much as said so. Or do you think that being perpetually unhappy is the point of rooting for the Kings?

Because you were responding to criticizm about the team by making some comments about not considering what other teams do in the league and not comparing them.
You extrapolated "opposing teams is an idea that needs to be removed from sports" out of a comment that was saying that fans might enjoy sports better if they didn't measure their teams progress by what other teams are doing? How?

... So the only logical point that I could surmise on your part is that we should all just drop caring about teams and enjoy basketball for the love of the game.
That... is not a logical conclusion to what I said.

I never said there wasn't. I'm responding to people who think criticizing the current front office somehow makes me not a fan of the Kings.
I mean, okay, I guess? Your mileage obviously varies, but that's not how I read those remarks. I don't think criticizing the front office makes you not a fan of the Kings, but if all you do is criticize... To me, it's like when somebody talks about how much they like turkey when Thanksgiving comes around, but when I ask them if they eat turkey any other time of the year, they say no. If you only eat turkey once a year, are you sure you like turkey? If the only time you talk about the Kings is when you're being critical of their bad decisions, are you sure you like the Kings? 'Cause maybe what you really like is just the idea of rooting for a winning team, but you don't want to switch to a winning team, because you've been sold on the idea that there's nothing worse in sports fandom than 'bandwagon jumping"?

I don't really know what you're addressing here...
I am addressing this:
1. No, because this is directly competitive sport. The concept is to compete against other teams. The idea of "opponents" aka "The Joneses" is inherent.


... because I've made no such commentary on this topic. I really don't care how you enjoy basketball. I've been discussing critics of the critics.
Which, I guess, means I have been discussing the critics of the critics of the critics.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#58
I didn't. This thread was made by a moderator after a single line questioning the fanbase about supporting Vlade. The only reason this is getting discussed is people are disagreeing on how good/bad Vlade has been, and this seems to be the bulk of the conversation.
This thread was not created by a moderator.
 
#59
I disagree. If somebody says Vlade has been a great GM and has average/above average draft history, they are ignorant. Ignorance isn't an insult, its an observation. If somebody thinks Bagley WILL BE an all star, that's ignorance. Call it blind faith, but it is still rooted in ignorance. He very well may, one day, end up at that level, but it is by no means a certainty.
If someone says Vlade is a great GM, that is indeed an opinion. How they measure greatness is their business. We're not dealing with the laws of physics.

Saying Bagley will be an all star is also an opinion. It does not have to be prefaced with "IMHO" to make it so. The fact that you agree, or have to hedge your bet that it may end up happening, supports that it's not an ignorant opinion.

At this point, I've just run out of patience with Vlade's FO so I'm not going to swallow my displeasure at the decisions being made and product on the floor until things turn around.
Nor should you swallow your displeasure. Just realize that not everyone has reached that point. New players, new coach and new system. There was always the chance the team wouldn't improve. Just ask the Vegas odds makers. Add in injuries and it totally makes sense we're in this situation. I was never a believer in the team that was winning games with back to back 35 ft shots.
 
#60
I get it......but Beverly and Rubio are still playing at a high level. Not to mention Curry will come back most likely and continue to be an All Star.
True. Still, that leaves us beating the dead horse that is the Maloofs, and I'm not sure what that accomplishes at this point.