Couldn't agree more. Along with being a more important trait than shooting, I think being able to attack the basket is the most important thing in winning basketball next to defense. Not only does it give you high percentage shots, it gets people into foul trouble. Getting bigs into foul trouble creates all kinds of advantages for a team with someone like Cousins. Then the great shooters (role players) that you mention are able to get their job done, due to their defenders helping against the bigs and penetration.
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- Thread starter Bricklayer
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Couldn't agree more. Along with being a more important trait than shooting, I think being able to attack the basket is the most important thing in winning basketball next to defense. Not only does it give you high percentage shots, it gets people into foul trouble. Getting bigs into foul trouble creates all kinds of advantages for a team with someone like Cousins. Then the great shooters (role players) that you mention are able to get their job done, due to their defenders helping against the bigs and penetration.
Yup. You can't be a star in the league if you only have one skill in your offensive repertoire, but Tyreke is still young and showing signs of improving off the ball and outside shooting. His ability to get to the rim is a very good base to build upon.
The Hammer
All-Star
Let's not lose perspective here.
Tyreke does not have "one skill" in his repertoire.
He's fantastic in transition, he has phenomenal handles, he get to the basket as one of the top 5 in the league, he's a good passer, good offensive rebounder for a guard, good rebounder overall, he also actually has good range at about 8-12 feet, beyond just the layups.
Basically shooting is the only skill he has yet to bring up to decent to elite levels.
It's kind of crazy how when someone is so good at something they are perceived as being one dimensional in that area.
Rookie
Starter
Well I can't accept that he is a good passer when his Assist to TO is near the bottom for a guard. Even IT as a rookie is better than him and it is one thing he should improve on.
His offensive rebound should be higher than other guard when you account for him driving to the basket more. Perimeter player isn't going to get much offensive rebound if any.
I don't know about the 8-12 ft. I usually just watch him shoot and not really see where he takes his shots. Maybe you're right but more often than not he just can't shoot the ball well and is more hesitant to do so from my perspective.
So yes, until Evans improve his passing/playmaking to reduce his Assist to TO and shooting better he is pretty close to 1 demensional offensive player, drive. Defense however he is better than any of our guard and SF too IMO. But when I was discussing about Tyreke's game I was just comparing his offense with MT, the driver vs the shooter.
His offensive rebound should be higher than other guard when you account for him driving to the basket more. Perimeter player isn't going to get much offensive rebound if any.
I don't know about the 8-12 ft. I usually just watch him shoot and not really see where he takes his shots. Maybe you're right but more often than not he just can't shoot the ball well and is more hesitant to do so from my perspective.
So yes, until Evans improve his passing/playmaking to reduce his Assist to TO and shooting better he is pretty close to 1 demensional offensive player, drive. Defense however he is better than any of our guard and SF too IMO. But when I was discussing about Tyreke's game I was just comparing his offense with MT, the driver vs the shooter.
HndsmCelt
Hall of Famer
There should not be much of a discussion about how good Evens is and how much potential he may have, rather I wonder where he is better suited the 2 or the 1. We KNOW it was a failure playing him at the 3. It seems to me that when he plays point he LESS effective than when he is at the 2. And that presents the problem. to my thinking we have 2 excellent shooting guards in in Evans and Thorton and a top PG reserve in Thomas. I don't see either Thorton or Evans being BEST used from the bench so what do we do? The two competing theories are Trade either Thorton or Evans for a a top quality PG or return Evans to the 1 and develop his game while adapting he offense to reduce turn overs and try to find other players to help innate offense.
I'd be okay with either scenario. The idea of moving Tyreke back to PG has the potential to create a very good defensive lineup if we also get a plus defender at SG with the length to guard SGs regularly. It should probably be someone who doesn't need a lot of shots. Terrence Williams could be a nice fit there, but one of them will need to become a more reliable 3-point threat.
Offensively I think he can play either position as well, so if we do manage to acquire a very good defensive PG than I'd be in favor of moving Tyreke to SG. But having that plus on-ball defender spear-heading the defense is a must for me. When you don't have that you put a lot of pressure on your help defense to make the adjustment and your bigs are likely going to find themselves out of position and in foul trouble a lot of the time.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Um...bajaden, I hate to point this out, but this thread was actually started ABOUT Tyreke.
Padrino
All-Star
what exactly are you constantly fishing for? you didn't even respond to my post when you asked the question last time in this thread: http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?45521-Discuss&p=901994&viewfull=1#post901994
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
You can quit asking that question anytime now. We've got 60 threads debating that and other Reke questions at this point. Do you think Russel Westbrook is a PG? What about Derek Fisher? Ron Harper? I think Reke might be most comortable playing the "PG in all but name" position alongside a roleplaying "PG" who's big job is to bring the ball across halfcourt, and then give it to Reke. But there have been so many title teams wiht "PGs" averaging fewer than 5 assists, and so many "scoring points" and everything inbetween that the entire question is murky at best. You would have a hard time excluding Reke from being a PG without excluding a bunch of other PGs in the process.
Now ask the question as "is PG Reke's best position" and you get right into the middle of the debates.
Hallama
Starter
All these experiments with Tyreke at the 1 and 3...I think he's a 2. Not a shooting 2, but a very good "big" guard. He played really well there for the last handful of games with Thorton out.
I think Thorton should be moved to a 6th man. Then it's just a matter of finding the right pieces at the 1 and 3 to compliment him in the starting lineup. Still would love to have AK and maybe a guy like...Billups at the PG.
Back to Brick's point - he shot very well this season, especially the second half of the season. I think the emergence of Cousins is starting to open lanes, and who better than to exploit lanes than Tyreke? He can excel in Sacramento. Just get the right pieces around him and Cousins and this team can be good quick.
I think Thorton should be moved to a 6th man. Then it's just a matter of finding the right pieces at the 1 and 3 to compliment him in the starting lineup. Still would love to have AK and maybe a guy like...Billups at the PG.
Back to Brick's point - he shot very well this season, especially the second half of the season. I think the emergence of Cousins is starting to open lanes, and who better than to exploit lanes than Tyreke? He can excel in Sacramento. Just get the right pieces around him and Cousins and this team can be good quick.
Easy there. Every team in the league has a point guard and it isn't some undefinable position. It is a simple yes or no question.
So define it in a way that allows a yes or no question. Harder than you think.
mr. moustache
Bench
"it isn't some undefinable position."
It isn't undefinable, but it's definable in so many ways to dilute whatever meaning you're trying to get out of a definition. There are a ton of starting "centers" that don't resemble what many would define as the "center" position.
No, it isn't. Should Tyreke play the 1 for the Kings? Not so hard.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
He could. Is he the best for it and is it the best use of him? Depends on who his team mates are.
I am amazed I answered as this has been the underlying theme of so many threads over the last 3 months. The use of Tyreke has been awful. Tyreke is a star and general wisdom is to build a team around your stars. With Tyreke, we are asking him to alter his game to fit the team and the joke is that we are a bottom 5 team. Are we worried that he will throw the team off its well oiled rhythm?
To address who you are interested in, the draft of Jimmer I think was an attempt to build around Tyreke. We needed a three point shooter to open up the floor for Tyreke. So far it hasn't worked but I don't think this story is over.
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Fine. Yes, if the coach starts him at point guard then he IS a point guard.
But if the coach doesn't start him at point guard then he's NOT a point guard.
That's the only simple way to answer the question. Beyond that you're into a subjective conversation about what constitutes PG play which moves it far beyond the realm of a simple yes or no question.
I've said all along that my ideal scenario would involve Tyreke playing in the backcourt with Doug Christie like player who had good size, good ballhandling and passing ability and could defend either guard spot while starting a decent ballhandler/defender at the three as well. Terrance Williams would be my pick of the current Kings but in a perfect world a guy like Kirilenko would be at that spot. In that situation I'd call Tyreke the PG because he'd defend the other team's PG but it's not an incredibly meaningful designation.
I think it's patently obvious that Tyreke is at his best when he can physically impose his will on opponents. He does that with ease when matched against opposing PGs. He does reasonably well when facing SGs. He clearly struggles when matched against SFs.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Well putting thing into perspective IT is half a year older than Reke
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Um...bajaden, I hate to point this out, but this thread was actually started ABOUT Tyreke.
Yeah, I know that, but I didn't want to throw water on the OP. It still bores me! Not that I don't agree with you. I just think its going to be a very long summer.
I've heard rumors that the OP can be very difficult if you irritate him!
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Rookie
Starter
I don't think he's a star yet and therefor I would disagree with building the team around him at this time. I think Cuz is and the team should be build around him. Cuz could probably even be an all star player next season if the team improves.
But as you also stated..the story ain't over for Tyreke. He's only 22 and can easily improve to be that star.
The Hammer
All-Star
You make horrible arguments.
You exaggerate his weaknesses and you minimize his strengths. How can you watch him shoot but not notice where he's shooting from? I'm talking about those little close range shots near the lane that aren't layups.
Also, you do know he hasn't been playing the guard position this year right? For about half the season he's been a full on shooting forward.
At this point your just grabbing at straws, mixing stats and observation however you see fit in order to fit your point. None of it really makes sense.
I'm not saying there aren't areas where Tyreke can't improve.
I also wonder how is AST/TO ratio would have been had our team at least been somewhere near the middle of the pack for shooting percentage? How many times did we see Evans successfully kick out to an open shooter, only to have that shooter miss? I know that won't change the TO side, but it'll definitely raise the AST/game.
Gary
All-Star
A lot of the shots that he kicked out were at the end of the shot clock, and were forced shots or shots in traffic. It's not all about kicking out, you need to kick it out to the right player, and make sure that player has plenty of time to get a good shot, or if it's a kick out to a spot up shooter you have to make sure there isn't someone right there in his face.
The team fg% went up 6%. That's a pretty drastic change, turnovers went down, and team assists skyrocketed along with ball movement.
Bottom line is that Evans was taking too long to get the offense going and his kick outs were VERY inconsistent and went to players who had to take contested shots, or straight up bad shots with little to no time left on the shot clock.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
That is a complete strawman. Sure it happened sometimes, Reke kicking to someone up against the clock. But we all know the majority of the misses(missed asts) we're talking about were not up against the clock, and were simply open misses. You act like the only time he passed was to people up against the clock. Completely disingenuous and not based in reality.
BTW, it happened the other way around as well. How many times did IT kick it to Cuz 20ft from the basket with 3-5 secs on the clock? How many times did Reke get the ball on the wing with 5sec or less on the clock, and had to jack up a jumper?
There is such bias in your posts regarding Reke. Based on what you're grabbing at lately, the only time Reke passed it was to guys up against the clock and had to force up garbage. Yet, he led the team is asts for the year.
Section 101
All-Star
Pot meet kettle.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
You know, even though I disagree with Gary many times regarding Reke, something I do respect from him is he at least takes the time to explain his viewpoint. Whether or not I agree with said viewpoint, I do respect the fact he takes the time to type them out.
But one-liners? Little respect for those, as they take little to no thought, and as far as I know a monkey typed it.
Not really. Note that I said offensive repertoire. I don't think he's a good offensive rebounder, not in the sense that he exceedingly stands out from anyone else (He averaged 1.0 offensive rpg this season, which is 15th among guards. Thornton is 3rd at 1.6.). In any case our team's offensive rebounding stats are naturally inflated due to the number of shots we miss. Good rebounder overall yes, but not on the offensive end. That's fine though, I don't expect guards to be great offensive rebounders - it's not required of them, and they should be staying back for defensive balance anyway.
Fantastic in transition/gets to the basket - isn't that essentially the same? Anyone in the league who is good at getting to the basket is good in transition. Tony Parker/ Derick Rose/ LBJ/ Wade etc. His skill is his ability to get to the rim, and you don't do that without good handles and speed/strength. Speed and strength also aren't offensive skills, they are athletic abilities. It's like me saying that Kyle Korver has one skill which is shooting, and you saying that's not true, he can pull up in transition, hit the 3, has good balance, follows through on his shots, can hit shots coming off of screens, is a good free throw shooter.
Also disagree with you about his shot from 8-12 ft. He may have it but he certainly doesn't show it. Most of his shot attempts are layups or shots from about 15ft out.
You should know by now that I'm a huge Tyreke supporter. Believe me, with his ability to get to the rim he'd have been an all star this season if he had any other well-developed offensive skill. As it is, he is a pretty one-dimensional player on the offensive end at the moment, but like I said is showing signs of improving his play off the ball and his outside shooting.
Gary
All-Star
How come every single offensive stat went from last place to the upper echelon from first half to the second half of the season once Evans was pulled from the PG position?
And I also said he would "consistently" do that. Not every time but he did that far too much. I am not reaching for anything. The stats prove I am right.
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