Discuss

[The_Jamal]

Wait, are you saying you'd trade Tyreke Evans for Andre Iguodala straight up? Iggy's not a bad player, but that's exactly the kind of garbage trade that will make you famous.

For a top 3 pick? In this draft? Maybe. If it was number one. I would not trade Evans for the rights to MKG. You would?

I would absolutely trade Tyreke for Iggy and thank the heavens I got him. He's a top 5 defender in the NBA of any position, he's a fantastic ball-handler/passer, he's a strong rebounder, and he's willing team player. This doesn't necessarily mean I keep Thornton, but I for sure move forward with Iggy and Cousins as my cornerstone franchise players.

It depends on what PF I could pair with MKG. Assuming I'd have a chance at Davis/Drummond/Robinson/Jones, I would be willing to deal Reke for that pick in a heartbeat to have a chance at a such a talented froncourt.

 

[ParniValjak]

Agreed. Who says a team doesn't offer us a top 3 pick for him? Or Andre Iggy straight up?

The fact remains that Tyreke has not become the player we've expected him to be after his 3rd season. You can have or create all the excuses for the world for him, but it does not change that fact. No one's suggesting we deal him for scraps. But if Portland calls and offers a top 10 pick+rights to Batum? I have no problem shopping anyone on a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 6 years outside of Cousins.

The problem is that we, as in Kingsfans.com fans, are NOTORIOUSLY bad at over-estimating our talent and placing unrealistic expectations on them. First Kevin Martin was the second coming of Kobe. Then Jason Thompson 20/12/4/2 replacement for Chris Webber. Spencer Hawes was the next Vlade with a potent post game and Evans was a mini LeBron. All of those have been and continue to be unrealistic expectations.

Now if we are being real and evaluating Evans as a talented stat stuffing guard able to play multiple positions and having the ability to defender multiple positions then he is still around the mark. As you have outlined in your thread, Tyreke's offensive game (except for the jump shot) has improved. He is much better off the ball not than he was 2 years ago or even last year. That is an improvement. His jumpshot is a work in progress and it is something that DOES take time. Its very rare for a player to come in with a completely potent jumpshot after one season.

With all his flaws, as he is right now in a team utilizing his talents, Evans is a 20/5/5 type player and those guys are extremely valuable. Would I trade him for Iggy?! No because I believe Evans will get better and he is younger. Would I trade him for Batum and pick 10?! Again No and this is coming from a BIG Batum fan. Batum is an all-star on a good team level player. Lets call it a Peja type (yes I know games are very different but its that level of player) while Tyreke can be a Brandan Roy level player, in other words a perennial all-star. They guy is ELITE at the thing he does best (dribble penetration) and with a respectable jump shot, he is a perennial all-star. Again this also requires a coach capable of creating an offense to utilise Tyreke's and DeMarcus' talent at the same time. But Batum and pick 10 does not do it for me. When you say pick 10 I look at the recent list of players picked at 10 in the draft and I come across names such as Jimmer Fredette and Spencer Hawes.

From Portland's perspective, they take that deal every day. As much as they love Batum, they get their Roy replacement to play with Aldridge and they are back in it. It would be one of the dumbest moves that franchise would make if it traded Tyreke. I am pretty sure in saying that even David Kahn would not be THAT stupid.

 

[Bricklayer]

I would absolutely trade Tyreke for Iggy and thank the heavens I got him. He's a top 5 defender in the NBA of any position, he's a fantastic ball-handler/passer, he's a strong rebounder, and he's willing team player. This doesn't necessarily mean I keep Thornton, but I for sure move forward with Iggy and Cousins as my cornerstone franchise players.

It depends on what PF I could pair with MKG. Assuming I'd have a chance at Davis/Drummond/Robinson/Jones, I would be willing to deal Reke for that pick in a heartbeat to have a chance at a such a talented froncourt.

Iggy is a very good roleplayer. He's not remotely worth what Evans could be. And you can't risk that. Especially for a guy heavily relaint on his athleticism who is heading into his 8th? year. Iggy could be the third guy beside a Shaq and Kobe level duo. He could be the 4th, the ace roleplayer, the Rondo next to 3 HOFs. But you can't go trading the guys higher up the food chain to get him because he just will never be that #2 or #3 guy (unless you have two guys so good they don't need a full #3, and even Miami and OKC don't).

Ever looked at his statline btw? He went 12.4pps (.454) 6.1reb 5.5ast 1.7stl 0.5blk. You know who that looks a hell of a lot like? That's right. Its Reke with more defense but less offense. And 6 years older.

 

[The_Jamal]

Iggy is a very good roleplayer. He's not remotely worth what Evans could be. And you can't risk that. Especially for a guy heavily relaint on his athleticism who is heading into his 8th? year. Iggy could be the third guy beside a Shaq and Kobe level duo. He could be the 4th, the ace roleplayer, the Rondo next to 3 HOFs. But you can't go trading the guys higher up the food chain to get him because he just will never be that #2 or #3 guy (unless you have two guys so good they don't need a full #3, and even Miami and OKC don't).

Ever looked at his statline btw? He went 12.4pps (.454) 6.1reb 5.5ast 1.7stl 0.5blk. You know who that looks a hell of a lot like? That's right. Its Reke with more defense but less offense. And 6 years older.

lol

Im not going to even start if you don't understand what Iggy's strength's are. He's a top 5 defensive player in basketball (4th on my list behind LeBron, Howard, and Chandler) that is a jack of all trades offensive star that doesn't demand shots. He's literally the perfect #2 option to another star player

 

[rainmaker]

Brought it up in another thread. I like Iggy a lot. Trade rumors resurfaced a month or so ago. Why? Because Philly wants more of a player they can go to at the end or got buckets when the need. Iggy is great, as a role player. He's not someone who will carry your team. Reke has that potential, and that's why you don't trade a potential game changer, and someone who can carry a team at times, for a very good role player. Brick said it well.^^

Now if we don't get a top 2 pick, and I tend to believe only Davis/MKG can step in and really help us right away, maybe Robinson can, but given that, if we get a pick in the 3-7 range, I highly consider packaging that with MT for Iggy. Why try Reke before MT or a different package, which leaves us with the undersized back court? MT/Turner on the wings, plus the pick whom they can develop off the bench without as much pressure as a top pick would feel here, might be pretty enticing for them. Turner is really starting to come around and reports out of Philly suggest he's their future, not Iggy, and they'd like to do it sooner than later. MT also gives them a clutch player, which they sorely need. And we can pair Iggy/Reke on the wings.

 

[The_Jamal]

Brought it up in another thread. I like Iggy a lot. Trade rumors resurfaced a month or so ago. Why? Because Philly wants more of a player they can go to at the end or got buckets when the need. Iggy is great, as a role player. He's not someone who will carry your team. Reke has that potential, and that's why you don't trade a potential game changer, and someone who can carry a team at times, for a very good role player. Brick said it well.^^

Now if we don't get a top 2 pick, and I tend to believe only Davis/MKG can step in and really help us right away, maybe Robinson can, but given that, if we get a pick in the 3-7 range, I highly consider packaging that with MT for Iggy. Why try Reke before MT or a different package, which leaves us with the undersized back court? MT/Turner on the wings, plus the pick whom they can develop off the bench without as much pressure as a top pick would feel here, might be pretty enticing for them. Turner is really starting to come around and reports out of Philly suggest he's their future, not Iggy, and they'd like to do it sooner than later. MT also gives them a clutch player, which they sorely need. And we can pair Iggy/Reke on the wings.

Reke/Iggy would be a terrible idea on the wings. We'd have no spacing whatsoever in the starting lineup outside of IT

 

[mr. moustache]

Agreed. Who says a team doesn't offer us a top 3 pick for him? Or Andre Iggy straight up?

The fact remains that Tyreke has not become the player we've expected him to be after his 3rd season. You can have or create all the excuses for the world for him, but it does not change that fact. No one's suggesting we deal him for scraps. But if Portland calls and offers a top 10 pick+rights to Batum? I have no problem shopping anyone on a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 6 years outside of Cousins.

Philly and Doug Collins would be THRILLED to trade Iggy for Evans.

 

[mr. moustache]

Ever looked at his statline btw? He went 12.4pps (.454) 6.1reb 5.5ast 1.7stl 0.5blk. You know who that looks a hell of a lot like?

"You know who that looks a hell of a lot like?"

Terrance Willams

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

I wonder if our team's propensity for fast break points this year (2nd in the league) may be pulling Evans' percentages up a bit. I've looked, but have been unable to find any by-player fast break point stats.

 

[Mal]

Why don't you use Thomas' starting numbers to compare? That .406 from three sure looks better than Evans .202. But, you know, statistics lie.

37 37 31.6 0.477 0.406 0.841


Turnovers? Thomas had a total of 8 turnovers in the last nine games...vs. 54 assists...

Evans 32 assists 18 turnovers. (Total turnovers..Evans is 13th and in turnovers per game.)


So, based on the numbers, Evans point per possession are in the bottom half of the league, and his points allowed are also in the bottom half of the league. At least he's consistent.

One thing you're numbers made clear, Cousins shooting numbers are really bad for a center. He should be over 50%

 

[Big Cuz 15]

"You know who that looks a hell of a lot like?"

Terrance Willams

that's not a bad comparison.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Just to be clear with what I would expect in a package for Tyreke Evans, there have been a total of two potential deals we heard about that I would be interested in.

The first is the Rajon Rondo thing. I'd still go after that one even with Thomas on the roster.

The second deal was that weird Tony Parker rumor that came out two trade deadlines ago.

That's my asking price. If no one comes to the table I'll be more than happy to return with Evans.

 

[ESP47]

I watched most of the games this year and I can't recall thinking that Tyreke was the problem very often. Normally it was a mixture of everyone on the team leaving the other team wide open for 3's, or it was completely doing away with the offense to play 1 on 1 in important situations. Sometimes I'd look at the box score and Cousins would have 18 reb, Thompson has 10 reb and yet we've been out rebounded by the other team. Tyreke normally gets his, IT is adequate for his position. The problem is we're getting no production from our SF's. Then you have Thornton who randomly gets in there and pulls down monster rebounds and put backs. Yet this only seems to happen in the 4th quarter for some reason. I wonder why? Lack of effort maybe?

It would be a shame to trade Tyreke unless it was legitimately for a better player...which I doubt will happen. We'll probably trade him for some soft point scoring SF and set the team another 5 years behind.

Tyreke needs to just do what he does best. If he can't shoot then drive. I'd rather see him drive into 3 guys and throw up a crazy lay up than stand flat footed and shoot a wide open 18 footer. He could be a 14pt/50% FG player if he'd just stop shooting outside shots. There are plenty of productive players that can't shoot out there. Tyreke can obviously rebound, pass and play decent defense so he doesn't have to rely on having a shot to be productive.

 

[pshn80]

easy. let's set aside the possibility of any potential acquisition this offseason, including draft picks, and let's account for the re-signing of jason thompson and terrence williams. you start this unit:

PG isaiah thomas
SG tyreke evans
SF terrence williams
PF jason thompson
C demarcus cousins

6th marcus thornton

I like your version. Mine would be a little different. Trade Thornton for value, any value. Starter and backup as follows:

Thomas/Fredette
Evams/Williams
Outlaw/Honeycutt
Thompson/Hayes
Cousins/Whiteside

Salmons back up 1,2 and 3

If we get something decent from the draft or trade adjust accordingly. Can't lose. But it all depends on moving Thornton along to another team.

 

[gunks]

I think the Kings are looking to trade Reke because the Magoofs dont have the $$$ to retain both him and Cousins. It would be a smart thing to get some value for him rather than have him walk.


Totally sucks to have broke owners.

 

[Rookie]

First Tyreke driving ability is awesome and I like it. However his shooting % comparison isn't really valid IMO. When compare to the rest, most of his shot is with him driving to the basket (lay ups) and not actually shooting. It's really hard to compare unless you think score is score and doesn't matter the difference between driving and shooting. I on the other hand think there is a difference because driving require the ball in your hand a lot longer than shooting and more of a one man offense. (More energy use as well) Hense he require the ball in his hands more often than anyone else to be effective. Without tyreke being able to shoot, to be honest I wouldn't use him as a second option. Yes I said it, I rather go with MT at this time as the starting SG, not Evans. His offense is more well rounded and harder to stop IMO.

Can you imagine how effective he would be in the playoff without any shooting ability? Even if he's able to do it, he will have to work twice as hard and that wouldn't be good in a 7 series stretch where defense is twice as tough as regular season.

I have no problem with putting him along with MT at this time regarding to trade just because of his potential. If he doesn't have that I would take MT over him easily.

Cuz is the only untouchable one on this team.

 

[ESP47]

I like your version. Mine would be a little different. Trade Thornton for value, any value. Starter and backup as follows:

Thomas/Fredette
Evams/Williams
Outlaw/Honeycutt
Thompson/Hayes
Cousins/Whiteside

Salmons back up 1,2 and 3

If we get something decent from the draft or trade adjust accordingly. Can't lose. But it all depends on moving Thornton along to another team.

Outlaw and Honeycutt as our two main SF's? We'd almost guarantee ourselves a top 3 pick next year.

 

[BMiller52]

Can I just say, as someone who would be OK trading Tyreke Evans, no one advocating we trade him for garbage. I want to see the offer before I say yes or no.

And I am only ok with trading Tyreke Evans because I'm also ok with trading Isaiah Thomas, Marcus Thornton, or Jimmer Fredette. My only untouchable is DeMarcus Cousins. The Kings only untouchable should be DeMarcus Cousins.

I agree with this

 

[The_Jamal]

"You know who that looks a hell of a lot like?"

Terrance Willams

Depsite that whole being a top 5 defender thing. Otherwise, sure

 

[Bricklayer]

First Tyreke driving ability is awesome and I like it. However his shooting % comparison isn't really valid IMO. When compare to the rest, most of his shot is with him driving to the basket (lay ups) and not actually shooting. It's really hard to compare unless you think score is score and doesn't matter the difference between driving and shooting. I on the other hand think there is a difference because driving require the ball in your hand a lot longer than shooting and more of a one man offense. (More energy use as well) Hense he require the ball in his hands more often than anyone else to be effective. Without tyreke being able to shoot, to be honest I wouldn't use him as a second option. Yes I said it, I rather go with MT at this time as the starting SG, not Evans. His offense is more well rounded and harder to stop IMO.

Can you imagine how effective he would be in the playoff without any shooting ability? Even if he's able to do it, he will have to work twice as hard and that wouldn't be good in a 7 series stretch where defense is twice as tough as regular season.

I have no problem with putting him along with MT at this time regarding to trade just because of his potential. If he doesn't have that I would take MT over him easily.

Cuz is the only untouchable one on this team.

You've got that flipped around. Many Kings fans do. As a general rule being able to attack the basket is considered the far MORE important trait than shooting. In fact rarely are a team's great palyers, the guys who make it go, the team's best outside sohoters. The great shooters are the roleplayers you put around the great players, Durant and to a lesser degree Kobe aside.

 

[Spike]

Totally sucks to have broke owners.

This. Owners not operating on the cheap would hire a better coach to maximize the talents of the team. Owners not operating on the cheap would then not have to worry about the issue, because 2 max players isn't going to break the bank. It isn't even going to put us over the cap. On a related note, isn't the cap floor going to rise noticeably over the next few years? The owners will have to spend.

 

[origkds]

Indeed, because as is well known the NBA has a no layups rule, for which they will give you a technical foul on a second offense.

Lol

 

[Sptsjunkie]

lol

Im not going to even start if you don't understand what Iggy's strength's are. He's a top 5 defensive player in basketball (4th on my list behind LeBron, Howard, and Chandler) that is a jack of all trades offensive star that doesn't demand shots. He's literally the perfect #2 option to another star player

What's the confusion? That's pretty much what Brick said. Although, Brick and I disagree about him being a #2. I think he could be a number 3. However, look at pretty much any championship team and tell me what #2 player you are replacing with Iggy.

I think Brick's overall point though is that we have a young team. Iggy is 28 and relies heavily on his athleticism, so if you are trading Evans for him, he needs to be able to step in and make the Kings a contender today otherwise there is no point. And I think we would all agree, Iggy simply wouldn't do that. Hence, you have to stick with Evans. At least Evans has the potential to be a star, whether he reaches it or not.

 

[Rookie]

You've got that flipped around. Many Kings fans do. As a general rule being able to attack the basket is considered the far MORE important trait than shooting. In fact rarely are a team's great palyers, the guys who make it go, the team's best outside sohoters. The great shooters are the roleplayers you put around the great players, Durant and to a lesser degree Kobe aside.

I'm still not sure about this. Most great players, beside PF/C, can shoot the ball extraordinary well, hands in the face type of shooting. I think their driving ability is good as well, which Tyreke can match if not better. I think to be great you need both. However a player that can shoot exceptionally well can be easily fit with almost any system in the NBA. But a player that can only drive is hard to fit unless you're planning to build around that driving ability. In that regard I think shooting out weight the drive but to be great you need both.

What Evans got going for him is that driving to the basket the way he can is much harder to learn (not sure if you can even learn it) compare to shooting. The question is and one that I'm losing patience on is can he learn it.

 

[The Hammer]

I'm still not sure about this. Most great players, beside PF/C, can shoot the ball extraordinary well, hands in the face type of shooting. I think their driving ability is good as well, which Tyreke can match if not better. I think to be great you need both. However a player that can shoot exceptionally well can be easily fit with almost any system in the NBA. But a player that can only drive is hard to fit unless you're planning to build around that driving ability. In that regard I think shooting out weight the drive but to be great you need both.

What Evans got going for him is that driving to the basket the way he can is much harder to learn (not sure if you can even learn it) compare to shooting. The question is and one that I'm losing patience on is can he learn it.

How are you going to get shooters open if you don't have anybody to drive and break down the defense? You can have 3 Kyle Korvers on your team but if you don't have a Rose they'll never get open. And even the "hand in your face" shots that Kobe makes don't have nearly the high percentage that someone like Evans has at the rim. And even the fact that he can get those off depends on the fact that the defender has to give him at least some space or else Kobe drive right by him every time. When Korver's gaured one on one, you rarely see him going for the fadaway, cause likely he can't even get it off because his defender is RIGHT on him. The only guy in the history of basketball who has been able to overcome that is Dirk Nowitzki. A true oddity. He's a 7 foot shooter with a high release, and even then he has to fade away (and stick a knee out) because his defender is always right up on him.

Shooters may appear to be more useful and versatile, but that's just it... they're what you use to compliment a major slashing threat like Evans. You're still putting the cart before the horse. The question you should be asking is, if you eliminated Evans' outside shots, what would be his FG%? Insanely high for a guard is what.

Baketball is a team sport. Certain things depend on certain other things. The two most important things both have to do with shooting the ball from close range: a big man with post skills, and a slashing guard who can break down the defense and either get to the rim himself or disrupt the defense enough to get other guys open (at the rim or a kick out). No pure shooter ever disrupted the defense. They can stretch the defense, but they can't break it. Take a look at some old vintage basketball film, before the game was full of great slashers. What you see there is a bunch of guys not able to get open, basically. I'll throw in another exception: a superb passing team can get guys open. But that also is extremely rare. The Carill offense is designed for this. Coaching at Princeton, he could never recruit top notch talent (slashers) so he devised his system of backdoor cuts, passing options, high post passers seeing over the defense, 5 shooters on the floor, etc... basically a whole series of elaborate (yes effective) strategies to make up for the fact he didn't have elite slashers. Carrill would have given his right arm for a player like that. It makes everything a whole bunch easier.

Bottom line: the driving skill is more important, the shooting skill is either fulfilled by role players or is a good addition to a guard's game who can drive.

 

[ESP47]

Look at the Kings in their heyday. The starting lineup didn't have a guy who could break down the defense. The only guy that was really any good at it was Bobby Jackson and it's not like we got better when he got on the floor. We have plenty of adequate passers on the team to run a more elaborate offense. The fact is that we rarely run screens, backdoor cuts, pick n rolls and or anything of the sort. It's all drive and kick. That's not what you want out of your offense. If Hayes has the ball in the high post and you have Tyreke and Thornton cutting to the hoop, that leaves Thompson on the wing and Donte at the 3pt line. More often than not we kick it out to Donte to shoot a 23% 3 point shot. Why isn't our athletic 6'10" SF Donte cutting to the hoop with our 3 pt shooter Thornton standing behind the line?

When we do try and run a pick n roll, the timing is never even close, so the PG runs up to the screen and then turns right back around and goes against the screen. Now he's still covered in the same position but there's only 12 seconds on the shot clock. When teams run it on us, our players have to switch off and now you've got a mismatch that's going to get exploited.

 

[JB_kings]

You've got that flipped around. Many Kings fans do. As a general rule being able to attack the basket is considered the far MORE important trait than shooting. In fact rarely are a team's great palyers, the guys who make it go, the team's best outside sohoters. The great shooters are the roleplayers you put around the great players, Durant and to a lesser degree Kobe aside.

Agree with the desired trait of being able to drive more important. But it's also very important that Reke develop a mid range game so that he can punish a defense that sags off him to defend against the drive. The better defensive teams do that and they are all playoff teams. No getting around it, Tyreke is good, but he needs that added dimension to his game to be a great offensive player.

 

[Rookie]

Bottom line: the driving skill is more important, the shooting skill is either fulfilled by role players or is a good addition to a guard's game who can drive.

Driving and breaking down D to create shot and then pass it to an open man is a great talent. I'm not sure if I can say that Evans mastered that yet. I don't see much of that during Evans playing at the PG position.

So basically you rather have Evans as he is right now over MT? I'm not asking about Evans with potential but what he is right now. Because by your statement, Evans who already mastered the drive so therefor we can build the whole team around him. Sorry but I can't agree with that.

Don't get me wrong, I was very high on Evans with his ability to drive in his first year, hoping for him to do exactly what you're stating. Break down the defense and pass to the open man. It was when the PG position was debated. However through the year, I don't see him improving in any of what I thought he could be capable of.

Bottom line for me: 1 dimensional driving ability < 1 dimensional shooting ability

ESP47: Regard to the heyday, Bobby is good at support..if you think his driving ability is going to carry the team to where they were, that I disagree. the team would still be a threat without Bobby. I think they would be more hurtful losing Peja.

 

[Tyndel]

Just to be clear with what I would expect in a package for Tyreke Evans, there have been a total of two potential deals we heard about that I would be interested in.

The first is the Rajon Rondo thing. I'd still go after that one even with Thomas on the roster.

The second deal was that weird Tony Parker rumor that came out two trade deadlines ago.

That's my asking price. If no one comes to the table I'll be more than happy to return with Evans.

I would laugh at the first post about Rondos inability to shoot from outside and the Freethrow line at least Reke is making a little progress.

 

[uolj]

Driving and breaking down D to create shot and then pass it to an open man is a great talent. I'm not sure if I can say that Evans mastered that yet. I don't see much of that during Evans playing at the PG position.

Where do all his assists come from?

So basically you rather have Evans as he is right now over MT? I'm not asking about Evans with potential but what he is right now. Because by your statement, Evans who already mastered the drive so therefor we can build the whole team around him. Sorry but I can't agree with that.

I think you'd be in the minority. Thornton scored two more points per 36 minutes than Evans. But Evans had more rebounds, way more assists (and one more turnover), and to most people's eyes better defense.

Bottom line for me: 1 dimensional driving ability < 1 dimensional shooting ability

Setting aside the question of whether Evans is one dimensional, can you name 1 dimensional shooters who have been stars in the league or led the team to anything? What about people with the ability to score by driving to the basket?

Basically, I just don't get where you're coming from. I see tons of good shooters who don't do much else and are effectively role-players. I don't see any that are stars without also having the ability to drive or otherwise create shots for themselves and others. That's the part that Evans already has, that's the part that the elite driving skill gets you. His passing skills might not be perfect, but he still gets assists whether he's at PG, SG or SF because of his ability to drive. A great shooter spaces the floor but doesn't do much else to help his teammates.