Current Team Discussion and Possible Trades

[CelticsFan]

Since CelticsFan responded already and didn't refute your interpretation of his post I guess I misinterpreted it. I took his post as Gay for the 3rd pick not necessarily for Brown letting the Kings chose whomever they wanted. To me, the third pick before the pick was made was worth Gay, after the fact then ?

whozit here is the article someone posted on this site that I was referencing

http://www.sportsrageous.com/nba/nb...en-brown-and-terry-rozier-for-rudy-gay/35099/

 

[whozit]

My guess is that the asking price for the third pick wasn't Rudy Gay and #8 or I think that deal would've been done and Kris Dunn would be a King.

If that was the deal I would've jumped on it. But Gay for Jaylen Brown? I don't know that I'd be interested. Partly because (even as a Cal alum) I'm not high on Brown but maybe more importantly because his game (at least right now) doesn't mesh with Cousins' at all.

Since we're talking hypothetically because we really don't know, if Gay AND the 8th weren't enough then Vlade was correct and the price was too high. Gay AND the 8th before the draft probably fair. Now that we know what happened , not so sure.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

No, and I've said that already. But you're focusing on something that has a very low likelihood of happening which makes your point...well...pointless.

Well, there you have it; we can't even agree over what we're disagreeing over.

 

[twslam07]

Well, there you have it; we can't even agree over what we're disagreeing over.

If you want to play semantics and focus on the fact that Smart can in fact accept the qualifying offer and leave in 3 years, that's fine. There is the possibility. That's never been in question. But the fact that you're bringing up a possibility with such a low probability is not only a waste of my time but a waste to everyone else's time who has read our little discussion.

We began this conversation as you wanting to know what my justification was that Gay is not worth Smart? I gave my reply and you decide to push the conversation away from that discussion and focus on something that has such a low probability of happening. To me, it's really a "who cares?" type of comment. I suggest you take a step back every once awhile to understand the big picture. It makes for more interesting discussion (to me), but then again, you like being nit-picky and playing semantics so maybe it's just a difference in personality.

 

[whozit]

whozit here is the article someone posted on this site that I was referencing

http://www.sportsrageous.com/nba/nb...en-brown-and-terry-rozier-for-rudy-gay/35099/

The headlines on that article is misleading. I don't think I read anywhere in the body of that article that Celtics were actually willing to trade both Brown and Rozier for Gay, just that they had plenty of assets to trade which just happened to include those players along with others. I personally don't think Ainge after playing hardball during the draft is going to turn around and do what the headline suggested and essentially cave.

 

[funkykingston]

Since we're talking hypothetically because we really don't know, if Gay AND the 8th weren't enough then Vlade was correct and the price was too high. Gay AND the 8th before the draft probably fair. Now that we know what happened , not so sure.

That's why I'd love to know what the asking price for the #3 was.

 

[dude12]

With no points to back up your claim...well done

What points need to be made? Your stance is that Brown, because he was picked 3rd, is more valuable than Rudy Gay. He's not to a team that is contending right now. Where a guy is picked can only go so far but if I'm Boston, I'm absolutely playing the "Brown is the 3rd pick in the draft" card.

Irregardless, my beef was with a Celtic fan who brought up Cousins into that scenario.....which is also overvaluing youth for a certified star.

 

[CelticsFan]

What points need to be made? Your stance is that Brown, because he was picked 3rd, is more valuable than Rudy Gay. He's not to a team that is contending right now. Where a guy is picked can only go so far but if I'm Boston, I'm absolutely playing the "Brown is the 3rd pick in the draft" card.

Irregardless, my beef was with a Celtic fan who brought up Cousins into that scenario.....which is also overvaluing youth for a certified star.

I'm an open minded guy, dude what do you think the Kings could get in a Cousins trade? Do you think he will be traded for mid level vets, young players and picks or established all star players? My point with you is if the Kings entertain trades for Cousins it's to start fresh. Brown and Rozier would be a good starting point

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

If you want to play semantics and focus on the fact that Smart can in fact accept the qualifying offer and leave in 3 years, that's fine. There is the possibility. That's never been in question. But the fact that you're bringing up a possibility with such a low probability is not only a waste of my time but a waste to everyone else's time who has read our little discussion.

We began this conversation as you wanting to know what my justification was that Gay is not worth Smart? I gave my reply and you decide to push the conversation away from that discussion and focus on something that has such a low probability of happening. To me, it's really a "who cares?" type of comment. I suggest you take a step back every once awhile to understand the big picture. It makes for more interesting discussion (to me), but then again, you like being nit-picky and playing semantics so maybe it's just a difference in personality.

I am not "playing semantics." I interjected myself in this discussion because you held up a tautology as if it were an axiom, and when I asked you to support your thesis, your defense was founded in claims that may or may not be true.

 

[whozit]

I'm an open minded guy, dude what do you think the Kings could get in a Cousins trade? Do you think he will be traded for mid level vets, young players and picks or established all star players? My point with you is if the Kings entertain trades for Cousins it's to start fresh. Brown and Rozier would be a good starting point

Several aren't getting that you have already stated that those would not be enough. I don't want to trade Cousins but the way the team is constructed there will be plenty of open spots available if needed next year (17-18 season). Vlade has shown the ability to go to plan B if needed and do it quickly. I don't think plan A involves trading him but plan B or C?

 

[dude12]

I'm an open minded guy, dude what do you think the Kings could get in a Cousins trade? Do you think he will be traded for mid level vets, young players and picks or established all star players? My point with you is if the Kings entertain trades for Cousins it's to start fresh. Brown and Rozier would be a good starting point

Seriously, it goes back to my previous comment, overvaluation of youth....in your starting point here especially because some youth are different such as Kris Dunn, Simmons, etc. Jaylen Brown IMO was a reach at 3, Rozier is not a starting point in a Cousins trade. This is why I said your looking through green tinted lenses.

Someone said it best pages ago, the Celtics do not have the youth assets in a Cousins trade....except maybe the Nets picks. If they had picked Dunn, then that is different. I personally think the Celtics have missed on that pick of Brown. Maybe not a bust, probably not a bust, but I think he's going to disappoint.

Back to Brown and Rozier as a starting point for Cousins..... that's crazy.

 

[twslam07]

I am not "playing semantics." I interjected myself in this discussion because you held up a tautology as if it were an axiom, and when I asked you to support your thesis, your defense was founded in claims that may or may not be true.

That's a very manipulative way to phrase it to say the least...

 

[CelticsFan]

Seriously, it goes back to my previous comment, overvaluation of youth....in your starting point here especially because some youth are different such as Kris Dunn, Simmons, etc. Jaylen Brown IMO was a reach at 3, Rozier is not a starting point in a Cousins trade. This is why I said your looking through green tinted lenses.

Someone said it best pages ago, the Celtics do not have the youth assets in a Cousins trade....except maybe the Nets picks. If they had picked Dunn, then that is different. I personally think the Celtics have missed on that pick of Brown. Maybe not a bust, probably not a bust, but I think he's going to disappoint.

Back to Brown and Rozier as a starting point for Cousins..... that's crazy.

Fair enough we can agree to disagree. Brown and Rozier have no value as far as your concerned.

 

[twslam07]

What points need to be made? Your stance is that Brown, because he was picked 3rd, is more valuable than Rudy Gay. He's not to a team that is contending right now. Where a guy is picked can only go so far but if I'm Boston, I'm absolutely playing the "Brown is the 3rd pick in the draft" card.

Irregardless, my beef was with a Celtic fan who brought up Cousins into that scenario.....which is also overvaluing youth for a certified star.

Where did I say that because he was picked 3rd it makes him more valuable than Gay? The player & potential of Brown is what makes him more valuable than Gay.

I've stated before that we win value in that trade, but we potentially lose value overall as a team because it's a step towards pushing Boogie out the door. That's why I have said it's not the trade we should be making, but it's certainly not a good looking trade value wise for the Celtics.

 

[dude12]

Fair enough we can agree to disagree. Brown and Rozier have no value as far as your concerned.

Hahahaha.....if that's how you comprehended my post then cool.

 

[funkykingston]

What points need

to be made? Your stance is that Brown, because he was picked 3rd, is more valuable than Rudy Gay. He's not to a team that is contending right now. Where a guy is picked can only go so far but if I'm Boston, I'm absolutely playing the "Brown is the 3rd pick in the draft" card.

Irregardless, my beef was with a Celtic fan who brought up Cousins into that scenario.....which is also overvaluing youth for a certified star.

To that point the Warriors definitely thought Billy Owens (and the #3 pick it took to get him) was worth more than Mitch Richmond. They turned out to be very wrong. Rudy Gay isn't a star player. He's not a great two way player. He's 30 years old and while signed to a very reasonable deal given the salary cap jump, he's only signed for a single season. So while he has value, it's hard to pin down exactly what that value is.

Jaylen Brown has promise and potential as the #3 pick. In time he could be a better player or a worse player than Gay. He could be a player who isn't as good but who has a much longer shelf life. He could be a star. He could be a bust. That's

I'm an open minded guy, dude what do you think the Kings could get in a Cousins trade? Do you think he will be traded for mid level vets, young players and picks or established all star players? My point with you is if the Kings entertain trades for Cousins it's to start fresh. Brown and Rozier would be a good starting point

The time to trade Cousins to the Celtics would have been before the draft, when they could choose which player they wanted at #3 and before free agency so they could change which players they would have targeted.

What would I have asked for?
#3, Brooklyn's pick next year and a pair of players. I'd ask for Bradley and Crowder, Ainge would probably offer Rozier and Olynyk. I'd settle for Bradley and Olynyk and probably ask for either #16 OR #23.

Then you still look to deal Gay, McLemore and Koufos. Play the young kids lots of minutes and likely end up with a top 10 pick next year meaning they'd keep it as well as Brooklyn's that would also be a likely top 10 pick.

Rebuilds are a risky thing, but if the Kings decided to pull the plug on the Cousins experiment that's they way they'd have to go. But there's zero reason to trade him now. The right window was just before the draft.

 

[Bricklayer]

My point with you is if the Kings entertain trades for Cousins it's to start fresh. Brown and Rozier would be a good starting point

No they really wouldn't.

Those are insects compared to Cousins. If you are trading him for Top 5 picks the entire and only point is that you are hoping against hope to somehow draft another major star. Its a foolish hope, but its one that is entirely foreclosed if you trade him for roleplayers. Nor has a player of Cousins' stature been traded for roleplayers in memory. The last one who was traded netted Andrew Wiggins, + friends. Hence trading Cousins for a Ben Simmons led package would have been more in line with common practice, not that that would have been wise either.

 

[funkykingston]

No they really wouldn't.

Those are insects compared to Cousins. If you are trading him for Top 5 picks the entire and only point is that you are hoping against hope to somehow draft another major star. Its a foolish hope, but its one that is entirely foreclosed if you trade him for roleplayers. Nor has a player of Cousins' stature been traded for roleplayers in memory. The last one who was traded netted Andrew Wiggins, + friends. Hence trading Cousins for a Ben Simmons led package would have been more in line with common practice, not that that would have been wise either.

I would've considered a Boogie/Simmons trade. He'll likely be a stud but the issue of course is that you have to shape your whole roster around his strengths and weaknesses. That and Philly wouldn't trade for Cousins given that they have to hope Embiid finally pans out and that it would devalue Okafor even further. And had Boston gotten the #1 pick I think they would have just tried to see if Simmons could be the star they've been waiting for. He would fit fairly nicely with their roster actually.

But on the larger point, yes - Boston no longer really has an attractive package for Cousins. In dealing him you'd at least want a shot at a young player or draft pick that could eventually turn into the level of player (or greater) that Cousins is now. I've watched enough of Jaylen Brown that I seriously doubt he's that guy. And I like a lot of Boston's players (Smart, Crowder, Thomas, Bradley) but they are the types of players you put AROUND a star, not building blocks in a rebuild.

 

[CelticsFan]

But on the larger point, yes - Boston no longer really has an attractive package for Cousins. In dealing him you'd at least want a shot at a young player or draft pick that could eventually turn into the level of player (or greater) that Cousins is now. I've watched enough of Jaylen Brown that I seriously doubt he's that guy. And I like a lot of Boston's players (Smart, Crowder, Thomas, Bradley) but they are the types of players you put AROUND a star, not building blocks in a rebuild.

Do you think the Nets will have a bad team next year? Next year supposedly the draft is loaded. Celtics own Brooklyn's 2017 ans 2018 pick

 

[pdxKingsFan]

That doesn't change the calculus for the Celtics, though.

If the Celtics wouldn't trade #3 for Rudy Gay, and the Celtics drafted Brown at #3, then the Celtics won't trade Brown for Gay.

Or, if #3 > Gay, and Brown = #3, then Brown > Gay, no? For the Celtics, at least.

Would the Celtics trade the #1 pick if they had it for Blake Griffin? (my guess = yes). Would the Clippers do this deal? Probably not. Which is why we're even in the equation here.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

That's a very manipulative way to phrase it to say the least...

Mileage varies on that, but it's accurate, either way.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Do you think the Nets will have a bad team next year? Next year supposedly the draft is loaded. Celtics own Brooklyn's 2017 ans 2018 pick

Doesn't that violate the collective bargaining agreement?

 

[funkykingston]

Do you think the Nets will have a bad team next year? Next year supposedly the draft is loaded. Celtics own Brooklyn's 2017 ans 2018 pick

The Nets will likely be terrible again. Joe Johnson and Thad Young are gone and Lopez was uncharacteristically healthy last season but Lin is a solid addition and I have a ton of respect for Atkinson as a coach. But in all likelihood they are a bottom five team. So sure, that's not a bad piece to deal for but there's a lot of uncertainty attached to it in terms of what pick it actually ends up being, which guys declare for the draft and how good they actually end up looking. On paper I like this draft, but on paper Skal Labissiere was the consensus #2 prospect going into last season.

So while I'd ask for that piece, that couldn't be the main attraction.

There's no scenario where the Kings trade Cousins and are competitive within a season or two. At least there shouldn't be because it would likely mean hopping on a treadmill of mediocrity. You'd want a complete rebuild.

Cousins for #3, the Nets pick next year and a couple other pieces (Bradley and #16?) would have been a decent start.

Then the Kings still have to trade Gay and probably Koufos as well. I like WCS but I'd look at dealing him too since his value diminishes if he's no longer next to a dominant big man in Cousins.

You take Dunn and Chriss at #3 and #8 and then say, Papagiannis at #16 (not my pick but who I think Vlade would take) and Luwawu or Richardson at #22.

Dunn/Collison
Bradley/Luwawu or Richardson
Casspi
Chriss
Papagiannis

and whoever you could get in free agency and in trade for Gay, McLemore, Koufos and WCS.

You let that team be awful next year and then you have two top 10 picks (the Kings own which might have to be swapped with Philadelphia and the Nets) and you take two more swings at getting a star player.

The next season the team is likely better but still not good and you have one more lottery pick in 2018 to try for another star or c0-star player and then Philadelphia gets the 2019 pick outright.

THAT would have been the way to approach an offseason in which you trade Cousins. Trading him now - after already drafting players, signing free agents and trying to build a team to compete with Boogie on the roster would be stupid.

 

[funkykingston]

Doesn't that violate the collective bargaining agreement?

No, because it's actually a pick swap. Boston has the right to swap picks with Brooklyn in next year's draft.

It violates the CBA to completely trade away consecutive 1st round picks but you can trade one away one year and then have a pick swap in place the next year because you're still in possession of a 1st round pick a year after trading one away.

That Nets trade for Pierce, Garnett and Terry is one of the very worst in recent memory. Not only does Boston have a pick swap in 2017 but they also still get Brooklyn's 2018 pick outright. Wow.

 

[NoBonus]

Let me say 3 things:
1. It is clear that the Celtics have no problem stirring the media pot just for the sake of stirring it; how many Demarcus Cousins to Boston articles have we seen? Knowing that, I really doubt any of this Boston/Clipper/Kings trade is going to actually happen or was ever going to happen.

2. The Kings still need a bench or starting PG and none of the Kings free agent moves have addressed the situation. This leads us to speculate there is still a move to be made; but what is the hold-up? Most of the noteworthy free agents are signed... Are we waiting for summer league to wrap up?

3. Rudy Gay being traded seems like rubbish. The only person that said he wanted to leave Sac was a historically terrible journalist. The guy who walks in front of my office screaming at passing cars has more credibility.

So the question becomes: When does Ben McLemore get traded for a PG? The Kings already have his replacement at the SG.

 

[funkykingston]

Let me say 3 things:
1. It is clear that the Celtics have no problem stirring the media pot just for the sake of stirring it; how many Demarcus Cousins to Boston articles have we seen? Knowing that, I really doubt any of this Boston/Clipper/Kings trade is going to actually happen or was ever going to happen.

2. The Kings still need a bench or starting PG and none of the Kings free agent moves have addressed the situation. This leads us to speculate there is still a move to be made; but what is the hold-up? Most of the noteworthy free agents are signed... Are we waiting for summer league to wrap up?

3. Rudy Gay being traded seems like rubbish. The only person that said he wanted to leave Sac was a historically terrible journalist. The guy who walks in front of my office screaming at passing cars has more credibility.

So the question becomes: When does Ben McLemore get traded for a PG? The Kings already have his replacement at the SG.

Carmichael Dave and Jason Jones have backed up Aileen's claim that Rudy has been unhappy and wants out though they refuted her assertion that he asked for a trade or that he'd be a problem if still on the roster to start the season

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

That Nets trade for Pierce, Garnett and Terry is one of the very worst in recent memory. Not only does Boston have a pick swap in 2017 but they also still get Brooklyn's 2018 pick outright. Wow.

How was Billy King not keelhauled for making that deal?

 

[upinsmoke]

How was Billy King not keelhauled for making that deal?

Blame the owner.

 

[King Baller]

I feel like I'm reading in the twilight zone lmao...
- Rudy Gay is worth more than the number 3 overall pick in this years draft?! - Really?! - Just from a logical stand point when it comes to value in NBA trades, in what world is Rudy Gay worth a top 3 pick in any draft. (Dont answer with your opinion of jaylen brown)

Overvaluation of youth? Rozier averaged 1 pt. 1 RB. 1 ast. Jaylen Brown hasn't played a min in the nba. Lol
- So you guys wouldn't trade Rudy Gay for Ben Simmons? Or Brandon Ingram? Because u know, they've never scored a point or played a min in the NBA.

And I swear, with some ppls reactions, you would think there would be no more franchise if Demarcus Cousins gets traded.

See the thing is you are asking us to disregard the actual player (Brown) while giving high value to the 3rd pick in the draft. Trading Gay for Brown right now is full of risk. Brown may not turn out to be a starting level NBA player while we know Rudy already is. Now if the 3rd pick was before the actual draft and Dunn was still on the table I could agree with you. Brown was a reach by the Celtics at the 3rd pick IMO and some others on this board. Dunn on the other hand will be starting by mid-season IMO.

 

[kingwin]

See the thing is you are asking us to disregard the actual player (Brown) while giving high value to the 3rd pick in the draft. Trading Gay for Brown right now is full of risk. Brown may not turn out to be a starting level NBA player while we know Rudy already is. Now if the 3rd pick was before the actual draft and Dunn was still on the table I could agree with you. Brown was a reach by the Celtics at the 3rd pick IMO and some others on this board. Dunn on the other hand will be starting by mid-season IMO.

-I'm telling you to disregard the player because who the player is, is irrelevant - no one drafted 3rd overall would be traded for Rudy Gay. Hell, papagiannis could have been drafted 3rd overall and they wouldn't trade him for Rudy Gay now.
- This is not me or you evaluating whether jaylen brown will be a good player.
- This is not an argument of whether jaylen brown is a better player than Rudy Gay today, tomorrow or 3 years for now.
- This is not me or you saying whether we would trade Rudy Gay for jaylen brown.
- This is not me saying I want the Kings to trade for jaylen brown.
-This is me saying - in the NBA - the value of any player That was just drafted 3rd overall would not be traded for Rudy Gay this year.