Current Team Discussion and Possible Trades
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Keep scrolling down after my post your commenting on. Those two pieces would be attractive pieces for Sac to target for Cousins but that's not all it would take obviously.
Think about what I was commenting on. Do you think Gay is worth the third overall pick a month ago? Throw in a nice your PG with potential like Rozier? Can you honetly say that would be good value for the Celtics?
Think about what I was commenting on. Do you think Gay is worth the third overall pick a month ago? Throw in a nice your PG with potential like Rozier? Can you honetly say that would be good value for the Celtics?
Hey, this is rumored to be a three team deal. The Celtics get Griffin, who will make them very tough and aggressive team immediately. Gay goes to the Clippers and can contribute significantly immediately. The Clippers do not have a SF. I believe the Clippers also have in mind a big splash next year (because they missed Durant at least for one year), so they get rid of some cap ballast. So somebody has to come to Sactown. In my opinon it will likely be a PG, but from where? It's also a possibility that both teams send a PG to the Kings. We also do not know if there are fillers involved this. In any case, it will be extremely interesting to see how this unfolds.
You know I don't think Rudy has as much value as this board is claiming, but you don't have to overrate those Celtics assets either.
Without sending most of their key players away the Celtics don't have the assets to trade for Cousins now.
And with us likely missing the playoffs again, Ainge can afford to wait until Cousins loyalty finally crumbles.
Without sending most of their key players away the Celtics don't have the assets to trade for Cousins now.
And with us likely missing the playoffs again, Ainge can afford to wait until Cousins loyalty finally crumbles.
The Celtics have nothing I'd want for Cousins even if I wanted the Kings to trade him.
Brown was one of my least favorite prospects in the draft, Horford doesn't help a team trying to rebuild, there's no guarantee that Brooklyn is as bad next year as they were this year so that draft pick may or may not be top five next season which leaves guys like IT, Crowder, Bradley, Smart etc who are all nice players but not foundational pieces.
Brown was one of my least favorite prospects in the draft, Horford doesn't help a team trying to rebuild, there's no guarantee that Brooklyn is as bad next year as they were this year so that draft pick may or may not be top five next season which leaves guys like IT, Crowder, Bradley, Smart etc who are all nice players but not foundational pieces.
I'm still struggling to see why the Clippers would trade Blake Griffin for the pieces they get in return. A healthy Griffin with Chris Paul, DeAndre Jordan, JJ Reddick and whoever they start at SF will give them the best chance to "upset" the Warriors. I can't see Rudy Gay and a new PF giving them a better chance.
Even if they get a couple of first round picks, they'd have to be high picks to make them worthwhile. The only one likely is Boston, but if Boston surprise people and make the play offs as an 8th seed, or finish with one of the best lottery win-loss records, the value of that pick diminishes. And if they get the Celtics that will be a late first round pick. So draft pick wise it doesn't really benefit them unless Brooklyn land a top three pick and one of those talents are special. 2017 is a deep class, but would one top three pick in 2017 give them a chance at a title in 2018? I'm not convinced, and that could also reduce their chances of keeping Chris Paul.
I don't see how trading Griffin benefits them. I really don't...
Even if they get a couple of first round picks, they'd have to be high picks to make them worthwhile. The only one likely is Boston, but if Boston surprise people and make the play offs as an 8th seed, or finish with one of the best lottery win-loss records, the value of that pick diminishes. And if they get the Celtics that will be a late first round pick. So draft pick wise it doesn't really benefit them unless Brooklyn land a top three pick and one of those talents are special. 2017 is a deep class, but would one top three pick in 2017 give them a chance at a title in 2018? I'm not convinced, and that could also reduce their chances of keeping Chris Paul.
I don't see how trading Griffin benefits them. I really don't...
It only works if we get someone of equal value to Rudy Gay. If the player (or players) we get in return can't equal his contribution, then we potentially lose out. Plus, this team is built to compete for the play offs, and with Cousins having two years left on his deal, we need to make positive moves to make this roster as competitive as it can be. So if the return for Rudy is lacklustre, we'd be better off keeping him and running the risk he walks in free agency; rather than taking on players who may not contribute as much, and could potentially be contracted beyond this season and hurt us cap wise - since if Rudy walks, we'll have money to spend.
No Bradley is not a PG, at least if you require your PG to run the team. He has improved quite a bit in the pick&roll, but he uses it more to get his own shot off. Bradley is one of the best defensive guards in this league, able to defend PG's and SG's despite his size.
Besides the Celtics have some great assets we should count ourselves lucky to get our hands on when trading Rudy - Crowder is a stud, Smart is still developing on offense, but I would put him in the Top 5-10, when it comes to defense and he actually defends anyone when asked to do so - from PG to PF. Plays with a lot of fire, hustle and physicality also. Rozier, Hunter are guys I would expect to be rotation players in the future.
From my point of view Boston is the ideal trade partner for the Kings, because they have the defensive pieces we need.
Sadly Boston doesn't need Rudy Gay, when they keep Crowder. Or at least I would think so, but with their problems on the offensive end in the Playoffs one might debate that.
Besides the Celtics have some great assets we should count ourselves lucky to get our hands on when trading Rudy - Crowder is a stud, Smart is still developing on offense, but I would put him in the Top 5-10, when it comes to defense and he actually defends anyone when asked to do so - from PG to PF. Plays with a lot of fire, hustle and physicality also. Rozier, Hunter are guys I would expect to be rotation players in the future.
From my point of view Boston is the ideal trade partner for the Kings, because they have the defensive pieces we need.
Sadly Boston doesn't need Rudy Gay, when they keep Crowder. Or at least I would think so, but with their problems on the offensive end in the Playoffs one might debate that.
Brooklyn missed on most of their upper tier FA signings. They added Lin, but lost Young. I don't think they will be good next year.
The Celtics have every important player locked until the end of 2017/18 on mostly cost efficient deals. They have a great coach and a great defensive core. They can easily aim for the Playoffs without adding another high impact player, but it won't be enough to beat the Cavs.
If Ainge doesn't find a high impact player now in a favourable trade for the Celtics, why shouldn't he wait half a season until teams get desperate? He doesn't need to go all out now.
We on the other hand are forced to come out strong, or our team chemistry will once again be a problem. We have not the most balanced roster and we most likely don't have the talent to be a lock for the Playoffs.
I don't want to trade Cousins. I want this guy to retire as a King after he has won a championship.
But if we don't win enough games next season, I can see things turn ugly quick and I can imagine Ainge waiting for just that to happen to make an offer for Cousins.
The Celtics have every important player locked until the end of 2017/18 on mostly cost efficient deals. They have a great coach and a great defensive core. They can easily aim for the Playoffs without adding another high impact player, but it won't be enough to beat the Cavs.
If Ainge doesn't find a high impact player now in a favourable trade for the Celtics, why shouldn't he wait half a season until teams get desperate? He doesn't need to go all out now.
We on the other hand are forced to come out strong, or our team chemistry will once again be a problem. We have not the most balanced roster and we most likely don't have the talent to be a lock for the Playoffs.
I don't want to trade Cousins. I want this guy to retire as a King after he has won a championship.
But if we don't win enough games next season, I can see things turn ugly quick and I can imagine Ainge waiting for just that to happen to make an offer for Cousins.
I think what you're describing (keeping Rudy and either trying to re-sign him or someone else with his cap space) might have more upside (i.e., keeping Rudy who is a good player; signing some high quality free agent), but it is also riskier because you can lose Rudy and end up losing out on high-quality free-agents. So it might be better, depending on your risk tolerance, to not make a trade for a lesser player. But, for a person more risk averse, mitigating that damage might be the better scenario.
Don't get me wrong, I am not against us trading Rudy Gay as long as we get someone who can contribute to this team going forwards. I have seen Kings players walk in free agency that we could have got draft picks or talent for if we had traded them before the deadline. So I can totally understand some fans wanting to get something in return for Rudy Gay rather than lose him for nothing. But the problem with trading Rudy Gay under those circumstances is that we would be setting a precedence for any player on this roster, with value and an expiring contract, that we would be looking to cash in on them because we don't believe we can retain them in free agency. I mean, if we are getting twitchy over Rudy Gay heading for the exit, what happens this time next year when DeMarcus Cousins has one year left on his deal?
I know some fans have a firm belief that Cousins will sign a contract extension and play his entire career with the Kings, but losing Cousins for nothing would be significantly worse than losing Rudy Gay for nothing because there is very little chance we could sign a player of Cousins' calibre in free agency. Therefore, if we are trying to minimise risk, then the next player on the trading block after Rudy Gay will be DeMarcus Cousins...
At the end of the day there is always going to be a risk that unrestricted free agents are going to leave, but we can't live in fear of that, or let it dictate roster moves unless we are getting something or someone in return that is going to make us better (either short term or long term). If we aren't getting equal value for someone like Rudy Gay, then there is no point in trading him unless Rudy Gay states he wants out. If he wants out, then that potentially forces us to make a trade. However, if he is happy to stay (which he apparently is according to some), and Joerger thinks he is an important piece of the puzzle, then we should keep him and take the risk of losing him for nothing in free agency. Just like we will with DeMarcus Cousins because we aren't going to trade Boogie unless he states he wants out. So unless we get a fair return for Rudy Gay, we might as well keep him considering we are trying to make the play offs.
I know some fans have a firm belief that Cousins will sign a contract extension and play his entire career with the Kings, but losing Cousins for nothing would be significantly worse than losing Rudy Gay for nothing because there is very little chance we could sign a player of Cousins' calibre in free agency. Therefore, if we are trying to minimise risk, then the next player on the trading block after Rudy Gay will be DeMarcus Cousins...
At the end of the day there is always going to be a risk that unrestricted free agents are going to leave, but we can't live in fear of that, or let it dictate roster moves unless we are getting something or someone in return that is going to make us better (either short term or long term). If we aren't getting equal value for someone like Rudy Gay, then there is no point in trading him unless Rudy Gay states he wants out. If he wants out, then that potentially forces us to make a trade. However, if he is happy to stay (which he apparently is according to some), and Joerger thinks he is an important piece of the puzzle, then we should keep him and take the risk of losing him for nothing in free agency. Just like we will with DeMarcus Cousins because we aren't going to trade Boogie unless he states he wants out. So unless we get a fair return for Rudy Gay, we might as well keep him considering we are trying to make the play offs.
The Grizzlies qualified for the play offs in 2010-11 and 2011-12, both seasons Rudy Gay was on the roster. They then traded him part way into the 2012-13 season mainly for monetary reasons. They didn't trade Rudy Gay because he was an issue on their team, they traded him to save themselves money. Ok, they finished that season they traded him with 56 wins and lost in the conference finals, and they have remained a competitive team in the western conference thereafter. But there is no doubt in my mind that Rudy Gay could have been a big factor in that team if they had kept hold of him because he is better than his replacements: Tayshaun Prince, Tony Allen and Jeff Green.
As for the Raptors, yes, they have got better since he left. They traded him during the 2013-14 season after Rudy Gay played only eighteen games, and they went on to win a total of 48 games and make the play offs. Since then they have won 49 games in 2014-15, and 56 games in 2015-16. But that has also been tied to the emergence of Kyle Lowrey and DeMar DeRozan as an all star backcourt. In this instance having someone like Rudy Gay around was probably counter productive because of how much Lowrey and DeRozan want the ball, so they did the right thing trading him, but the Grizzlies did take a hit at SF when Rudy Gay left and perhaps could have benefited from keeping a near 20 ppg player to support their team.
Will trading Rudy Gay help us? Perhaps, but we need to make sure we get a player in return that is going to make an impact. We also have to make sure we don't get fleeced in a trade. There is no doubt that Rudy Gay is a streaky player and has a number of flaws, but he can be effective in the right system. We aren't in a position to give up on talent like Rudy Gay without getting fair value in return, and if we don't get fair value, we won't improve because we don't have a big three to fall back on like the Grizzlies (Conley, Randolph, Gasol) or an emerging all star back court to carry team like the Raptors (Lowrey, DeRozan). What we have is an all star center, some solid veteran players, and some young talent. As great as Cousins is he can't do it alone, and as flawed as Gay is, he is as good a supporting cast member as any we've put on court with Cousins since he came here. And unless we can get fair value for him, there's no point in trading him.
As for the Raptors, yes, they have got better since he left. They traded him during the 2013-14 season after Rudy Gay played only eighteen games, and they went on to win a total of 48 games and make the play offs. Since then they have won 49 games in 2014-15, and 56 games in 2015-16. But that has also been tied to the emergence of Kyle Lowrey and DeMar DeRozan as an all star backcourt. In this instance having someone like Rudy Gay around was probably counter productive because of how much Lowrey and DeRozan want the ball, so they did the right thing trading him, but the Grizzlies did take a hit at SF when Rudy Gay left and perhaps could have benefited from keeping a near 20 ppg player to support their team.
Will trading Rudy Gay help us? Perhaps, but we need to make sure we get a player in return that is going to make an impact. We also have to make sure we don't get fleeced in a trade. There is no doubt that Rudy Gay is a streaky player and has a number of flaws, but he can be effective in the right system. We aren't in a position to give up on talent like Rudy Gay without getting fair value in return, and if we don't get fair value, we won't improve because we don't have a big three to fall back on like the Grizzlies (Conley, Randolph, Gasol) or an emerging all star back court to carry team like the Raptors (Lowrey, DeRozan). What we have is an all star center, some solid veteran players, and some young talent. As great as Cousins is he can't do it alone, and as flawed as Gay is, he is as good a supporting cast member as any we've put on court with Cousins since he came here. And unless we can get fair value for him, there's no point in trading him.
Clippers would have to believe their run without Blake last year was real and that there might be some locker room issues that we aren't aware of. At any rate, something like:
Boston gets: Blake Griffin
Boston trades: Marcus Smart, Jaylen Brown, BK Pick, Amir Johnson, Terry Rozier
Sacto gets: Marcus Smart, Amir Johnson
Sacto trades: Rudy Gay, Ben McLemore.
Clippers trade: Blake Griffin
Clippers get: Rudy Gay, Jaylen Brown, BK pick, Ben McLemore, Terry Rozier
I think this works money wise after doing the quick math, but this is what I imagine a 3-team swap would like. Or some iteration of this.
Clipps get a poor man's version of Blake and some quality rebuilding pieces for a star they might not even want.
Boston gets there star for the exact pieces they want to trade and get to keep their core
For us, we actually get 2 starter upgrades. Amir Johnson is on a 1 year deal, but he's a really, really good 2-way role player. Also lets us develop WCS off the bench further and not be forced into relying on him for 30+ MPG. Boogie, Amir, WCS, Koufos is some serious length and rim protection for 48 minutes.
And while turning the keys over to a player like Smart is certainly a risk, it's the kind of potential we have to bank on. Smart is already an incredibly good defensive player and brings a fire on the court that I think Boogie would like playing with. We'd also fully transition into being a straight nasty defensive team with incredibly good length and depth at every position. Smart and Amir were two big reasons for the Celtics defensive success last season. Adding them to the additions we've already made would turn us from the soft/lazy team we were last year into a team that could very easily be a top 10 defensive team under Joerger.
Boston gets: Blake Griffin
Boston trades: Marcus Smart, Jaylen Brown, BK Pick, Amir Johnson, Terry Rozier
Sacto gets: Marcus Smart, Amir Johnson
Sacto trades: Rudy Gay, Ben McLemore.
Clippers trade: Blake Griffin
Clippers get: Rudy Gay, Jaylen Brown, BK pick, Ben McLemore, Terry Rozier
I think this works money wise after doing the quick math, but this is what I imagine a 3-team swap would like. Or some iteration of this.
Clipps get a poor man's version of Blake and some quality rebuilding pieces for a star they might not even want.
Boston gets there star for the exact pieces they want to trade and get to keep their core
For us, we actually get 2 starter upgrades. Amir Johnson is on a 1 year deal, but he's a really, really good 2-way role player. Also lets us develop WCS off the bench further and not be forced into relying on him for 30+ MPG. Boogie, Amir, WCS, Koufos is some serious length and rim protection for 48 minutes.
And while turning the keys over to a player like Smart is certainly a risk, it's the kind of potential we have to bank on. Smart is already an incredibly good defensive player and brings a fire on the court that I think Boogie would like playing with. We'd also fully transition into being a straight nasty defensive team with incredibly good length and depth at every position. Smart and Amir were two big reasons for the Celtics defensive success last season. Adding them to the additions we've already made would turn us from the soft/lazy team we were last year into a team that could very easily be a top 10 defensive team under Joerger.
Quick analysis of our team as it stands right mow:
c - 5, 2, -
PF- 2, 1
SF- 4, 2
SG- 3, 2, 1
PG- 3, 1, -
Scale- 1-5, 5 is best, 3 is decent starter.
Players:
Cuz, KK
WCS, Skal
Gay, Casspi
DC, IC
If this is a fair analysis and scale, we should look for a least a 3 for each position and, say, a total of 5 for the starter and a back up at each position.
Greatest need, at PF. Next greatest, PG.
So what should Vlade do?
c - 5, 2, -
PF- 2, 1
SF- 4, 2
SG- 3, 2, 1
PG- 3, 1, -
Scale- 1-5, 5 is best, 3 is decent starter.
Players:
Cuz, KK
WCS, Skal
Gay, Casspi
DC, IC
If this is a fair analysis and scale, we should look for a least a 3 for each position and, say, a total of 5 for the starter and a back up at each position.
Greatest need, at PF. Next greatest, PG.
So what should Vlade do?
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