Bowen plays dirty , Gets Carter ejected...

what about doug christie? can i search the archives and find any messages where you call christie a dirty player? bowen may have accidently kicked wally, but doug definitely punched out mr. vanessa.

Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms.
 
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The real problem here is the refs. If one player is going to play provocateur, that's fine until he starts risking injury to the other guy. But he should NEVER get the benefit of the refs as well. If he dishes it out, then he should have to take it and more in return. Cost of doing business. If a ref is going to let that crap go on all game then he has absolutely no business getting involved in the least bit until the other guy hauls off and actually smacks Bowen.
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Call it both ways though. When Kobe, TMac, Vince push off, pull the defender off balance or clear out, which they get a near total pass on now, call the foul. When the screener moves to pick off the defender or holds the defender trying to get around the screen call the foul. You talk like the 'dirty" play is only coming from one side. Bowen, trying to play defense takes as many or more knocks as he gives. Goes for any good perimeter defender, maybe why so few are willing to do it.
 
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JSin said:
I'm sure you think him stepping under Carter last year was just coincidence...right?
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definition of coincidence
  • The condition of occupying the same place in space; as, the coincidence of circles, surfaces, etc.
  • The condition or fact of happening at the same time; as, the coincidence of the deaths of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson.
  • Exact correspondence in nature, character, result, circumstances, etc.; concurrence; agreement.
i'm not sure what you mean, but i think we need another incident to compare it with. i.e. who injured dave ramer, lewis lloyd, steve nash, sidney moncrief, donyell marshall, joe kliene, isiah thomas, and david robinson
 
striker said:
Bricklayer do you view Miller as a dirty palyer?
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No, although he has moments. But basically he's a scrapper. And there is a big difference.

And here is the difference -- Brad is NOT in control of the situation. He bangs, and wrestles and scraps in a desperate battle for control, but he premeditates NOTHING. There is no dirt there. No intent. No high elbows (a habit he quit at some point) no mysterious feet under a jumpshooter, few hard fouls sending people to the floor (with the exception of the temper control periods). There is no method, just effort. He may commit fouls while flailing about, but every single one of them comes from him chasing the ball. He rarely dishes out unnecessary extrracrricular punishment.

Now a dirty player -- the WHOLE art of being a dirty player is NOT committing fouls, and of making your fouls harder than they have to be when you do. Of getting in extra unwhistled abuse at every opportunity. Of provoking and harassing as a tactic, of taking actions directly related to harassing and distracting your target rather than of playing the game. And at its extreme of threatening your target with actual injury. THAT is what Bowen does. And its not what Brad does. Brad hustles and flails. Bowen is premeditated. HUGE gulf.

Deke is dirty (elbows), Bowen is dirty, Fortson is dirty, Artest is dirty, Harpring is dirty, Bell is dirty, Patterson is dirty, Najera is dirty. Malone was dirty. Shaq is dirty when he swings that big elbow right into your jaw. All of those players and more don't play the ball, they play the man and attempt to intimidate, and in some cases threaten injury to, the player they are guarding in an attempt to throw him off his game and gain an advantage.
 
And here is the difference -- Brad is NOT in control of the situation. He bangs, and wrestles and scraps in a desperate battle for control, but he premeditates NOTHING. There is no dirt there. No intent. No high elbows (a habit he quit at some point) no mysterious feet under a jumpshooter, few hard fouls sending people to the floor (with the exception of the temper control periods). There is no method, just effort. He may commit fouls while flailing about, but every single one of them comes from him chasing the ball. He rarely dishes out unnecessary extrracrricular punishment.
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what do you think shaq says about that?

Deke is dirty (elbows), Bowen is dirty, Fortson is dirty, Artest is dirty, Harpring is dirty, Bell is dirty, Patterson is dirty, Najera is dirty. Malone was dirty. Shaq is dirty when he swings that big elbow right into your jaw. All of those players and more don't play the ball, they play the man and attempt to intimidate, and in some cases threaten injury to, the player they are guarding in an attempt to throw him off his game and gain an advantage.
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that's a huge list, but no kings on it. has there ever been a king that was a dirty player?
 
Dave McNulla said:
what do you think shaq says about that?

that's a huge list, but no kings on it. has there ever been a king that was a dirty player?
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yes.

And when you're talking about a team that has always fought the soft label is it any surprise we don't have anyone on the list right now? Our brain trust is allergic to overly physical play.

recent Kings who could be dirty:
-- TMass
-- Vernon Maxwell
-- possibly Vlade depending on how you want to define it (in the same way Manu is dirty -- flopping, not dangerous to the other side, but its a variety of cheating and also meant to distract the other player)

-- O.P. was a dirty player from an earlier era.
-- Antoine Carr would get dirty too
-- in the very early days we had a thug named Mark Olberding

Here and there, there and here. But there is a reason that for most of the Sacramento era the Kings have been assocaited with finesse/softness. Eras typified by Reggie Theus, Wayman Tisdale, Peja/Webber, and very few defensive stoppers along the way.

P.S. And in that game where Shaq tried to kill Brad, Shaq was at LEAST as upset at Charles Oakley's antics as he was at Brad's (and Oakley of course was dirty).
 
Spurs use to be soft too then we got "dirty" and won some championships. I guess I'll take "diryt".

I'll still think Brad fits the "dirty" bill and if you posted whose "dirty" in the NBA on some forums Brad would get a few shout outs. Bruce would be near tops. Fine with me.

Your statement above was very self-conflicting. On the one hand you said dirty players are subtle and then you mentioned Fortson, Deke, Artest (in his early years), Patterson. These guys are not subtle. Bowen may stay right at the speed limited maybe a little over at times. He'll try to get in an offensive players head and he's excellent at it. Thanks for that and I think will keep him. All the prissy fans crying "Bruce is so bad and dangerous", well in a multi-year career show me the blood.
 
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striker said:
Spurs use to be soft too then we got "dirty" and won some championships. I guess I'll take "diryt".

I'll still think Brad fits the "dirty" bill and if you posted whose "dirty" in the NBA on some forums Brad would get a few shout outs. Bruce would be near tops. Fine with me.

Your statement above was very self-conflicting. On the one hand you said dirty players are subtle and then you mentioned Fortson, Deke, Artest (in his early years), Patterson. These guys are not subtle. Bowen may stay right at the speed limited maybe a little over at times. He'll try to get in an offensive players head and he's excellent at it. Thanks for that and I think will keep him. All the prissy fans crying "Bruce is so bad and dangerous", well in a multi-year career show me the blood.
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You, and well the occasional fellow Spurs fan, might be the only people on the planet that think that Bruce Lee Bowen is subtlely dirty.

Furthermore, I said nothing at all about dirty players being "subtle". In fact most of them are just like Bowen -- hack and foul on every single play and the refs won't call all of them, or even a fraction of them. If you establish a constant stream of abuse as the norm, then the refs are unlikely to call any of it at all until you step it up even another notch. I know this tactic. I've used it myself. But the dirty player IS willing to take it up another notch. Oh, let's say place their foot underneath somebody on a jumpshot, throw an elbow, run under them on a layup or dunk, or perhaps even leap through the air and kick them in the face. Hey, anything to get the other guy thinking right?
 
striker said:
What Bowen does most is constantly touch players, chest, arm, stomach. Offensive players, particularly the prima donnas hate to be crowded, touched. It irritates them and they react. B
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Every sport needs to protect it's skilled players, who, BTW, are the guys fans pay money to see. If you allow the subtle clutching and grabbing of the fastest hockey players, the best wide receivers and the most talented perimeter shooters, you end up with journeymen like Bowen neutralizing superstars and levelling the playing field. And I won't pay to watch it.

Having scrubs injure superstars with dirty play is not a viable survival strategy for a pro league.

If the league doesn't start policing this stuff, maybe every team will need an enforcer like the 1970's NHL. Bruce Bowen, on your way to an acrobatic layup...allow me to introduce Mr. Fortson.
 
I think Bowen is the master of "brinksmanship". he plays along the edges of acceptable play most of the time. he acts like a decent citizen. Then, he acts irresponsibly when necessary to win. he is not the least bit concerned about ending someone's career. he may act concerned when the opposing player is writhing on the floor in pain, but it is an act that he feels is necessary to avoid official sanction.

I reiterate that Popovic expects some his players to behave this way.

Bruce Bowen falls into the group with Massenburg, Fortson, Madsen, Najera, Harpring, Malone, and probably Horry. There are others. I don't think Adelman and Petrie would tollerate a player that has so little concern for the well-being of other players. It isn't their style.
 
i still can't believe we are putting Brad in the same category as DF and Bruce Bowen...he's absolutely nothing of the kind...a tough guy but certainly not dirty
 
In fact most of them are just like Bowen -- hack and foul on every single play and the refs won't call all of them, or even a fraction of them.
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The only response I can make is that you must have never watched a game that Bowen's played in and formed an opinion by reading some of the more exagerrated message board posts.
 
Dave McNulla said:
he's not dirty, he plays defense. defense may be boring to many fans, but it's what keeps us from having to watch 1,231 all star games /season.
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please! that's the most biased statement i've heard on these forums ever. every player in the league has complained about bowen at some point. i will give bowen credit though... he plays so dirty that it makes people want to kick his a** and then they get thrown out of the game.

bowen's a jacka**
 
brad miller aint a dirty player. he is a loose cannon at times though. i would like to see him beat shaq down!
 
Bricklayer said:
P.S. And in that game where Shaq tried to kill Brad, Shaq was at LEAST as upset at Charles Oakley's antics as he was at Brad's (and Oakley of course was dirty).
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Much moreso. Miller was fouling Shaq around the arms, which is legal until the point that a ref deems it unecessarily forceful. Oakley, otoh, was jupming into his chest with his elbow extended and was hitting him on the head.

And the Spurs fans have done a good job trying to project Bowen's dirtiness onto Brad Miller. They usually pull this trick when Bowen's done something naughty.
 
Dear Spurs Fans,

Go to any team's board and you'll see that most of them think that Bowen is a dirty player. It is only you guys not thinking like that.

You keep saying that Bowen is in all defense team five times. Well, VC is an ALL STAR for 6 times. There is a reason for that. When he is on, he is unstoppable. Well, only if you injure him.

Have you ever realized that this topic is discussed over and over again? And why do you think this happens? How come this stuff keeps happening to Bowen? Ray called him dirty, because when he was trying to get up after he fell down, Bowen came and pushed him back. I told this on your board as well. There was no ball, nothing around. This was shown on Seattle's local channel several times. I was also at that game. But you guys prefered to put "whiny" label on Ray, rather than thinking your "greatest defender" can be dirty.

Oh, yeah... He was never ejected. But come to think of it, the greatest players of all time got ejected from the game and that does not mean that they were not the best. Likewise, not being ejected does not mean that you are not a dirty player or an SOB.

If I think like you guys, Fortson should not be a thug. He is just playing physical!!! And if he pushes Duncan, elbows him every now and then, or flops when he faces him, I should be saying he is smart, right??

To me, if you're defending Bowen, you have no right to say anything negative to any other player.
 
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you guys and all your we hate grabbing and holding takes. bruce gets between his man and the basket, and he's no different than doug christie. i never heard a king fan complain about him.
 
Dave McNulla said:
you guys and all your we hate grabbing and holding takes. bruce gets between his man and the basket, and he's no different than doug christie. i never heard a king fan complain about him.
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DC wasn't a dirty player like Bowen, and it is annoying that you are trying to compare the two. Bowen has the rep league-wide, Christie does not.
 
Dave.... the reality of events are mounting against you. The goaltendings and Bowen undercutting Carter.. again.

Bowen gets between his man and their ribcage, not just the basket. If he's such a great natural defender then why was Carter torching him? He can't play legit shutdown D so he tries to take Carter out.
 
Sorry Dave, but your Spurs bias is REALLY obvious. Bowen is a DIRTY-PLAYER. A punk.

And I really cant wait until one day someone just goes off on him. (preferably Peja :D)
 
android king can i get the vince carter/bowen thing you pasted it dont work for some reason.
 
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