Boogie & Rudy's Excellent Adventure

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I knew that Spain was going to be hard to beat but, looking at how they're working Brazil right now... man...

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

No he's not. He can't dominate defenders 1 on 1 the way Cuz can, or a lot of other bigs like Al Jefferson for that matter. And he gets eaten alive by most big man in the paint on defense because he is so weak and skinny right now. Unless he blocks their shot, because he is quite good at that.

He's also basically a power forward playing out of position. He doesn't really have any business guarding, or being guarded by, NBA centers, which is probably why New Orleans went and got Asik. I would say that he's arguably the best two-way big in the NBA right now; there's no offensive big who's as good as he is defensively, and vice versa. Cousins, by comparison, is probably only the second-best offensive big in the league. Which is not a slight on Cousins.

And, the fact of the matter is, Cousins had to play his way onto the team. Davis' spot was his to turn down. Of course he's going to get more shine.

 

[swisshh]

If you don't think that Cousins is getting love from the broadcasters, you're just looking for reasons to have beef. Cousins has been getting more love than any player on Team USA who's not a starter and, frankly, more than two of the starters. Please don't try and equate "not getting praised as much as Anthony Davis" with "not getting his due."

I think fans may be complaining about Fran who still tows the problem child perspective on Cousins. To be fair to Fran, he's been horrible all around in commentating so far. Like Hubie Brown on Xanax. .

 

[Bricklayer]

You guys have Cuz blinders, AD is the best big in the league right now, and he's oy getting better

Is he? I think he might be eventually. But even now when I watch him I this tournament...he's built for this style of junky play, but he is not doing a lot of his own work. That remains the difference, and this sort of tournament will cover it up, even reward it. But he's mostly just being a finisher. The guard creates, he moves, dunk. That's very handy. Its also glorified Tyson Chandler.

Now Davis can do more than that, and he gets a flash here or there, but that's all he's going to get in this tournament, same as Cousins. The real test will be once these guys are back with their teams, and Davis now will have a perfect frontcourt pairing to get him away from big centers. Then we'll see if he's taken any steps as a goto guy. Because last year, still as a very young player, what he did could be taken away by a good defensive team. He thrived in spaces, on mistakes. He didn't overwhelm you man on man. He was not a guy who was going to consistently beat you if you and the defense were set. He was a guy who consistently took advantage of your mistakes. I should also note BTW he had a mysterious lack of defensive impact on his team given the big steal/block numbers. There's a ton of potential obviously, but people have been in a mad rush to crown him king while he's still a finesse player without a distinct offensive game or goto moves.

 

[Chubbs]

If you don't think that Cousins is getting love from the broadcasters, you're just looking for reasons to have beef. Cousins has been getting more love than any player on Team USA who's not a starter and, frankly, more than two of the starters. Please don't try and equate "not getting praised as much as Anthony Davis" with "not getting his due."

Yeah, and here's the thing. Guys with all around talent like Davis come around once every 50 years. In other words, he's one of a kind. Bill Russell with a jump shot. Guys like boogie every 15-20 years. Being less than Davis is by no means a bad thing. It's like Patrick Ewing vs Hakeem. Ewing ain't bad, but Hakeem is once in a lifetime. Davis is that. He'll be hitting 3s consistently at some point and it just won't be fair. Just watch. He's a guard in the body of long limbed super athlete. It's Tim Duncan with more mobility and slightly less girth (at age 21, mind you).

Sure, he can't just back down guys and dominate them physically. I love boogie, but Davis is just more special. Maybe not as a center, but as a ridiculous stretch 4. That's more super high praise for AD than a knock on boogie. I've seen few guys with the upside Davis has. Hyperbole? Maybe. But that's the feeling around the league as well. And paired with Asik? He's going to be unbelievable as a help defender. Just unreal.

Is he there yet? No. 21 years old. Let's remember that.

Both Boogie and AD are great. It doesn't have to one or the other.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I never said that Cousins is not getting any love from the broadcasters. He has received more praise in the past few weeks than the previous seasons combined. I am well aware of that thanks. My main point, and only point that I was trying to make, is that everyone views Davis as an up and coming superstar. When I said "not getting his due," I was referring to that. Why is Cousins not looked at as an up and coming superstar? I don't have "beef" with anyone nor am I looking to stir up a hornets nest. When I referenced the stats, I was merely trying to say it can't be statistical, because Cousins is right there with Davis on many criteria. Perhaps now with the national exposure, the views will change more.

Roger that. We're not working from the same definition of "getting his due." Fair enough.

 

[dude12]

I don't agree that Davis is an all around talent that comes around once every 50 years. I don't think he's that type of once in a generation player at all. And you did say that he's not there yet, but he's not going to be a Bill Russell defensively, will never ever be close to Hakeem...he just doesn't have the physical quicks for that. I'm just saying the hype machine on him doesn't need to go overboard for him.

 

[swisshh]

Davis v Boogie

I love Davis and Boogie. Yes, they're different players, but that's what bugs me about the extra attention Davis gets.

Some part of the AD hype train is based upon the fact that he fits the guard-centric style the league has been running with. Davis won't be much of a post player for years if ever. He exists with ball dominant guards quite easily. He gets his offense through lobs and putbacks. You can kick out to him as his outside jumper continues to improve. That's all fine, but I don't like seeing that particular style glorified because I don't want post play to disappear from the game. Despite what the press says, an NBA without good post play is an overall weaker product. The subtext of the Boogie v Davis debate is the interior center vs the stretch big. It's post play vs glorified role player.

 

[randymoss1881]

Isn't Davis an overrated defender as it is? And yes the top 5 talk with him is annoying Boogie doesn't even get top 10 talk. What gets me is people act like Boogie can't get better if he can become a plus defender he will always be better than AD and will be a top 5 player.

 

[Bricklayer]

See here's the thing, potential aside, you would be hardpressed to launch a statistical argument how Davis was better DEFENSIVELY than Boogie last year at anything except shotblocking:

Cousins 30.5 DRb% 2.4 Stl% 3.2 Blk% 101 Drtg 3.8 DefWS -3.7 DefOn/Off
A.Davis 23.3 DRb% 2.0 Stl% 6.7 Blk% 104 Drtg 3.2 DefWS -0.5 DefOn/Off

*lower Drtg is better (they really should not be compared like that cross team however). Bigger negative numbed is better on/off.

 

[bajaden]

I have been following Europen Basketball for longer than the NBA. I watch two euroleague games per week, adriatic league games, plus any serbian league/cup (about to watch Serbia vs Iran) and they certainly are a lot more stingy with assists. Jumpshots and single dribbles/escape dribbles are definitely not counted as an assist and haven't been for the last 25 odd years I have been following european basketball.

Is he? I think he might be eventually. But even now when I watch him I this tournament...he's built for this style of junky play, but he is not doing a lot of his own work. That remains the difference, and this sort of tournament will cover it up, even reward it. But he's mostly just being a finisher. The guard creates, he moves, dunk. That's very handy. Its also glorified Tyson Chandler.

Now Davis can do more than that, and he gets a flash here or there, but that's all he's going to get in this tournament, same as Cousins. The real test will be once these guys are back with their teams, and Davis now will have a perfect frontcourt pairing to get him away from big centers. Then we'll see if he's taken any steps as a goto guy. Because last year, still as a very young player, what he did could be taken away by a good defensive team. He thrived in spaces, on mistakes. He didn't overwhelm you man on man. He was not a guy who was going to consistently beat you if you and the defense were set. He was a guy who consistently took advantage of your mistakes. I should also note BTW he had a mysterious lack of defensive impact on his team given the big steal/block numbers. There's a ton of potential obviously, but people have been in a mad rush to crown him king while he's still a finesse player without a distinct offensive game or goto moves.

Yeah, I tend to agree with you on this one. I can certainly see the potential there. If he can refine some of his offensive skills, especially in the post, he could end up being the best PF in the league, and maybe the best big man in the league. Hard to compare Cousins and Davis because they're two entirely different players. Cousins grew up a big man, while Davis was a PG early on in highschool. So they both developed different skill sets. Of course defensively Davis is in a league of his own, especially if he's not asked to guard guys like Boogie down low. Now my dream would be to have Davis playing along side Cousins. It would be the best frontcourt in the league. And, we might actually make the playoffs.

 

[Henkel]

I don't like the notion that Davis, even at this early point in his development, is a glorified Tyson Chandler. It's a bad comparison and not the best way to point out that he doesn't have the most developed post game. His post game and body are developing, which shouldn't be confused with a deficiency. He already has a reliable hook shot with either hand that is damn close to unblockable due to his length and his footwork sure looks a lot better than it did just a few years ago at UK. Not to mention his perimeter skills, probably the most intriguing part of his offensive game, which separates him in a big way from just another athletic finisher. Lastly pointing out that he's great running the floor and finishing in pick and rolls isn't something that should be used minimize other aspects of his game.

 

[upinsmoke]

A. Davis is no center at least not how I interpret the position. He's undoubtedly skilled on both sides of the ball but his coaches hide him against true bigs. Davis makes his money in the open court icing the cake off guard penetration. On defense he's a energy guy who hustles to get blocks on the weakside then runs the floor. what I disagree with is the KG/Duncan comparison those guys came into the league on another level imo. Honest opinion give me Cousins any day.

 

[kennadog]

I just think Davis is a better fit for the way Coach K wants team USA to play. It just isn't a team designed to show off what Boogie does best. So I don't think Boogie will get will get the kudos Davis is getting. I don't think that makes Davis a better center at all, if all its based on is Team USA play. At least until we play a team(s) with real big guys.

 

[Chubbs]

I didn't mean to say he'll be like Hakeem at all. But that he's unique in that same way. Only one Hakeem, only one AD. You can't say that about even Michael Jordan, cause you point to Oscar or Dr. J.

Over a 10 game stretch in march, AD averaged 30 points, 13.5 rebounds, and three blocks per game on 55 percent shooting while turning 21 in that stretch.

I can't think of many big men that run the floor like guards. Let's not overlook that like it's a negative.

There will never be another Hakeem and there will never be another AD. Book it now. But Davis can learn a post game. You can't teach his otherworldly athleticism.

Who is better now, AD or Boogie? Who cares? As fans of basketball, enjoy the ride.

 

[VF21]

I just think Davis is a better fit for the way Coach K wants team USA to play. It just isn't a team designed to show off what Boogie does best. So I don't think Boogie will get will get the kudos Davis is getting. I don't think that makes Davis a better center at all, if all its based on is Team USA play. At least until we play a team(s) with real big guys.

And you know, I can live with that ... and I'm sure Boogie can. He's representing his country on the world's biggest stage. You can see it in his face that it means everything to him. He's part of TeamUSA, and the lessons he learns will help him be a better team leader for the Kings.

 

[swisshh]

I think Embiid is much more like Hakeem than Anythony Davis is, bu that's why it will be interesting to see how the league reacts to Embiid's low post stylings.


I agree that Davis fits what Coach K is doing better than anyone. I do wonder what will happen if teams continue to switch in zones like Turkey did. You want to attack that by dropping it to your big at the high post, and both Davis and Boogie can help you there. Will the guards do that though?

 

[Tetsujin]

Yeah, and here's the thing. Guys with all around talent like Davis come around once every 50 years. In other words, he's one of a kind. Bill Russell with a jump shot. Guys like boogie every 15-20 years. Being less than Davis is by no means a bad thing. It's like Patrick Ewing vs Hakeem. Ewing ain't bad, but Hakeem is once in a lifetime. Davis is that. He'll be hitting 3s consistently at some point and it just won't be fair. Just watch. He's a guard in the body of long limbed super athlete. It's Tim Duncan with more mobility and slightly less girth (at age 21, mind you).

Sure, he can't just back down guys and dominate them physically. I love boogie, but Davis is just more special. Maybe not as a center, but as a ridiculous stretch 4. That's more super high praise for AD than a knock on boogie. I've seen few guys with the upside Davis has. Hyperbole? Maybe. But that's the feeling around the league as well. And paired with Asik? He's going to be unbelievable as a help defender. Just unreal.

Is he there yet? No. 21 years old. Let's remember that.

Both Boogie and AD are great. It doesn't have to one or the other.

Woah woah woah. Slow down a bit there. AD's put up impressive numbers but Bill Russell is pretty much the greatest defender of all time. Saying "Davis is like Bill Russell with a jumpshot" is like saying Lebron James is Oscar Robinson with less hair. Different players, different eras, different league.

 

[Bricklayer]

I think Embiid is much more like Hakeem than Anythony Davis is, bu that's why it will be interesting to see how the league reacts to Embiid's low post stylings.


I agree that Davis fits what Coach K is doing better than anyone. I do wonder what will happen if teams continue to switch in zones like Turkey did. You want to attack that by dropping it to your big at the high post, and both Davis and Boogie can help you there. Will the guards do that though?

I think for the time being Davis's comparison remains KG, although there were notable differences there centering around KG being probably the #2 passing/ballhandling PF of his era (to Webb) and Davis's guard skills apparently being more scoring guard than point guard, because he doesn't create much. On the other hand Davis is an even more dynamic athlete, and he's a bigger shotblocker than KG was. Nonetheless that looks like an obvious place to start with comparisons, and with both strengths and potential limitations. KG eventually became maybe the greatest stat stuffing PF of all time, filled up absolutely every column...but his lack of true goto ability always haunted him and kept him from mounting a serious charge at greatest PF of all time. Everybody always loves guys who score the easy baskets, but its the tough points, the tough baskets against set defenses keyed on stopping you and you beat them anyway, that are the true championship and greatness separators. Right now Davis still plays offense a bit like Amare used to play offense rather than the way Hakeem or Duncan or Shaq or the other championship bigs played offense. He doesn't impose his will. BUT...he's also just 21 and coming into his third season. Lots of time. just like I say, people are getting ahead of themselves. Well...a little bit. Even if he's "just" KG it means he's probably Top 25 all time as a low end. That's pretty good.

Agree about Team USA's use of its bigs. Thought what really started turning us around on offense vs. Turkey was when our stickyfingered egomaniacal guards (including the best offensive player in the league and the best overall player in the league spparently) actually quit going one on one and actually started making those extra dump passes to the bigs. That actually started happening a smattering of times in Boogie's 2nd quarter stint, but not consistently. then after half there was a distinct break as I'm sure the coaches had a few gentle suggestions.

 

[gunks]

If you're hating on AD, you're a Cousins homer.... Dude is a freaking talent. Can give you a 10 block triple double any given night.

That said, he has an ceiling on offense. Cousins does not....

So yeah, AD is rad, and a franchise player for sure...I'm not going to knock him, or hate on him, or try to downplay who he is as a player. I'm happy for Pelican fans.

When you match them up head to head, Boogie crushes Davis every time....So why be mad?

 

[The Hammer]

If you're hating on AD, you're a Cousins homer.... Dude is a freaking talent. Can give you a 10 block triple double any given night.

That said, he has an ceiling on offense. Cousins does not....

So yeah, AD is rad, and a franchise player for sure...I'm not going to knock him, or hate on him, or try to downplay who he is as a player. I'm happy for Pelican fans.

When you match them up head to head, Boogie crushes Davis every time....So why be mad?

I do like this debate.

So let's take a poll.

If you're starting a franchise, and you can pick either AD or Cuz to center your franchise around... who do you pick? And why?

(Let's say they're both at their current age and skill level)

 

[KingMilz]

If you're hating on AD, you're a Cousins homer.... Dude is a freaking talent. Can give you a 10 block triple double any given night.

That said, he has an ceiling on offense. Cousins does not....

So yeah, AD is rad, and a franchise player for sure...I'm not going to knock him, or hate on him, or try to downplay who he is as a player. I'm happy for Pelican fans.

When you match them up head to head, Boogie crushes Davis every time....So why be mad?

They never match up head to head cause the Pelicans would rather let Austin Rivers guard Cousins than Davis, while Cousins easily stays in front of Davis most the time. I always find it embarrassing when the best big on the other team is crapping on your team and your to afraid to put your best defender on him. I think Davis is a great player but man he's getting a bit overrated, putback dunks/alleys and wide open jumpers just don't do it for me and never will.

 

[Bricklayer]

They never match up head to head cause the Pelicans would rather let Austin Rivers guard Cousins than Davis, while Cousins easily stays in front of Davis most the time. I always find it embarrassing when the best big on the other team is crapping on your team and your to afraid to put your best defender on him. I think Davis is a great player but man he's getting a bit overrated, putback dunks/alleys and wide open jumpers just don't do it for me and never will.

JT really helped last year. Its why there is still some ? to getting rid of him for me. Certain critical matchups, Davis, Love etc. JT was really effective.

 

[Tetsujin]

The lack of basketball talent in most of the world is perfectly exemplified by Faried constantly putting up superstar stats in FIBA play. A solid player but certainly not the superstar the rest of the world is making him appear to be.

 

[Tetsujin]

I know we've said this numerous times before but Team USA's backcourt defense is atrocious.

 

[Tetsujin]

You can turn the game off now, Miles Plumlee is in.

 

[Chubbs]

A more athletic KG is pretty good everyone. Why knock it? It's just petty.

Russell with a jump shot may go too far. I just meant he can protect the rim like Bill Russell, yet hit jumpers as well. Davis definitely doesn't have Russell or boogie's nose for rebounds.

Ultimately, Cousins and Davis are different types of players. It took boogie till his 4th year to get to 20/10 and Davis did it at age 20 with a very limited offensive game. Put backs, one dribble put up a shot, fast breaks. Pure athleticism offensively. Really everywhere. He's still learning, that Davis kid.

Boogie has a few years on him and 50 lbs. He should crush him heads up. Davis was a teenager two years ago and is still too skinny (although he's as big as Bill Russell ever was). If Davis gets to 235-240, god help us all. But really, it's comparing different positions.

Start comparing Davis/Boogie during season 2 statistically and one comes out WAY ahead. And it's not our guy. And to be quite honest, Davis year 2 was better than the only other guy at age 20 who I can find that compared. That's Lebron James. James year 2 PER was 25.7, Davis was 26.5. When Boogie was 21 he was a disaster at Team USA practices. Davis starts and anchors the team at 21. KG didn't reach the statistical heights Davis did last season until he was 26. Kobe? Has had one season better PER-wise than Davis did last year in his entire career. Shaq as a rookie at age 20 put up a 22.9 PER. 28.5 at 21. Can Davis match that? I wouldn't bet against it.

This is why the hype is so high. Unless you think 21 year old Davis is about to get worse. The only question with Davis is durability. But statistically at age 20 last season he kinda rewrote the book.

I love boogie. He's special. But there are hall of fame tiers. Cousins is higher than say a Richmond type player. But Davis can reach the top level, with the oscars and Jordan's and Russell's.

Enough of my Davis fanboy stuff. . This is a king's board dammit. Blasphemy to suggest their might be other great players in the nba.

 

[upinsmoke]

JT really helped last year. Its why there is still some ? to getting rid of him for me. Certain critical matchups, Davis, Love etc. JT was really effective.

This is true he does a good job of chasing those type of players around the perimeter but even with that I would prefer to deal him. Simply has to many deficiencies in his game. That said I think he would fit right in backing up Drummond and Monroe because he could sub in at the 4 & 5 relatively effectively. C'mon PDA I have bee refreshing KF & STR all summer long waiting for a real trade to go down.

 

[Tetsujin]

A more athletic KG is pretty good everyone. Why knock it? It's just petty.

Russell with a jump shot may go too far. I just meant he can protect the rim like Bill Russell, yet hit jumpers as well. Davis definitely doesn't have Russell or boogie's nose for rebounds.

Ultimately, Cousins and Davis are different types of players. It took boogie till his 4th year to get to 20/10 and Davis did it at age 20 with a very limited offensive game. Put backs, one dribble put up a shot, fast breaks. Pure athleticism offensively. Really everywhere. He's still learning, that Davis kid.

Boogie has a few years on him and 50 lbs. He should crush him heads up. Davis was a teenager two years ago and is still too skinny (although he's as big as Bill Russell ever was). If Davis gets to 235-240, god help us all. But really, it's comparing different positions.

Start comparing Davis/Boogie during season 2 statistically and one comes out WAY ahead. And it's not our guy. And to be quite honest, Davis year 2 was better than the only other guy at age 20 who I can find that compared. That's Lebron James. James year 2 PER was 25.7, Davis was 26.5. When Boogie was 21 he was a disaster at Team USA practices. Davis starts and anchors the team at 21. KG didn't reach the statistical heights Davis did last season until he was 26. Kobe? Has had one season better PER-wise than Davis did last year in his entire career. Shaq as a rookie at age 20 put up a 22.9 PER. 28.5 at 21. Can Davis match that? I wouldn't bet against it.

This is why the hype is so high. Unless you think 21 year old Davis is about to get worse. The only question with Davis is durability. But statistically at age 20 last season he kinda rewrote the book.

I love boogie. He's special. But there are hall of fame tiers. Cousins is higher than say a Richmond type player. But Davis can reach the top level, with the oscars and Jordan's and Russell's.

Enough of my Davis fanboy stuff. . This is a king's board dammit. Blasphemy to suggest their might be other great players in the nba.

Aaaand you've lost me once again. Coming into the league, KG was an athletic freak of nature (sorta his generation's Giannis) and started out as a SF/SG. Davis is plenty athletic but you're once again saying something that is debatable at best.

No one is debating the fact that Davis is good but that doesn't give folks carte blanche to throw out the most ridiculous comparisons possible.

And with that all said, it's rather obvious that Mason Plumlee is Bill Walton with better durability.

 

[Chicken Chaser]

USA vs. New Zealand? What'd I miss? What'd I miss?