Better franchise cornerstone: Fox, or Doncic? (Split from Doncic - performance thread)
- Thread starter rainmaker
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Doncic is the obvious answer. He looks like a generational talent. Fox has superstar potential, but Doncic looks like he could be an all time great.
At the end of the day though it's irrelevant because they weren't even part of the same draft so debating Fox v. Doncic might as well be the same as discussing Lebron v. Jordan.
At the end of the day though it's irrelevant because they weren't even part of the same draft so debating Fox v. Doncic might as well be the same as discussing Lebron v. Jordan.
If you would stop and actually think about the question, minus all the other stuff in the thread, I think it is a legitimate one. We had Fox, and could have drafted Doncic, but perhaps didn't because we thought Doncic would take away from Fox as our cornerstone. It's far from a hypothetical situation, and is likely a scenario that the FO did think about, and that will impact our franchise for better or worse for many years to come.
People see the name Doncic and immediately get all defensive.
People see the name Doncic and immediately get all defensive.
People get defensive because Doncic is looking like an incredible player, and it's difficult to accept that we passed on drafting him. Every night when Bagley is on the floor I'm hoping he posts monster numbers because it makes me feel better about skipping out on Doncic. It's the same thing when I look at Dallas box scores, I hope to see poor shooting numbers from Doncic.
The go to response everyone has when discussing Doncic is that Bagley is a better fit. While I can agree with that, I also still realize we may have missed out on a generational talent, better fit or not.
So for me personally, I'm just tired of Doncic discussion in general. Bagley may well turn into an absolute stud, but if most people are being honest with themselves, it's fairly obvious he is not going to be better than Doncic.
And this is not a knock on Bagley. As a Kings fan, I obviously want him to turn into an amazing player. But that doesn't mean I can't not regret passing on Doncic.
So to put it simply, at the end of the day I'm simply tired of talking about any Doncic vs anyone. Because we know how blindingly bright his future is, and we also know that he's not on our team when he could have been.
So whether it's Doncic vs. Fox, Doncic vs. Bagley, Doncic vs. anyone... at the end of the day we have who we have.
The go to response everyone has when discussing Doncic is that Bagley is a better fit. While I can agree with that, I also still realize we may have missed out on a generational talent, better fit or not.
So for me personally, I'm just tired of Doncic discussion in general. Bagley may well turn into an absolute stud, but if most people are being honest with themselves, it's fairly obvious he is not going to be better than Doncic.
And this is not a knock on Bagley. As a Kings fan, I obviously want him to turn into an amazing player. But that doesn't mean I can't not regret passing on Doncic.
So to put it simply, at the end of the day I'm simply tired of talking about any Doncic vs anyone. Because we know how blindingly bright his future is, and we also know that he's not on our team when he could have been.
So whether it's Doncic vs. Fox, Doncic vs. Bagley, Doncic vs. anyone... at the end of the day we have who we have.
Doncic is an incredible player but those already putting him in the hall of fame, or even saying Fox vs. Doncic is already a one way street I think are being short sighted. Everything is based on "you rarely see rookies put up these numbers". Throwing Tyreke out, because apparently that ruffles too many feathers, I think it might be more fair to compare Doncic to second or third year players trajectories because he already has multiple years of pro experience.
Also, and I think it's fair, you have to consider that if Doncic was a King, playing for Joerger, he'd be seeing less minutes and be getting yanked constantly for lack of effort on the defensive end. We'd be discussing firing Joerger a lot more seriously, possibly to the detriment of everyone, on top of making decisions about who needs to be shipped out to better complement Doncic/make room (because of the yanking), etc...
Also, and I think it's fair, you have to consider that if Doncic was a King, playing for Joerger, he'd be seeing less minutes and be getting yanked constantly for lack of effort on the defensive end. We'd be discussing firing Joerger a lot more seriously, possibly to the detriment of everyone, on top of making decisions about who needs to be shipped out to better complement Doncic/make room (because of the yanking), etc...
I don’t really think that was the rationale of the front office. As far as hampering Fox goes, that’s something that popped up among fans and talking heads when it became clear Doncic was hampering Dennis Smith Jr.
I think they believed Bagley had better upside and that Doncic had a ceiling that he’s already near. Perhaps that could have been read from Joergers comments earlier in the year but it was also a well known reason anybody was a bit apprehensive. They also haven’t been proven wrong yet but I know it’s no fun to wait and see how it plays out when we want to speak with such authority and absolutes now.
Personally, I liked Doncic and wanted him draft night because we didn’t have a SF and they were hyping Harry to the moon. Before the draft I was fighting off people underselling him based on euro baller stereotypes but I really don’t view him and never did view him as this “generational talent”. He is far from the perfect prospect and there must be some reason his euro coach passed on him and mr east euro b-ball himself Vlade passed on him. I doubt it was easy but I’m sure everybody knew he’d win rookie of the year so I doubt anybody is kicking themselves over this season.
I’m sure he’ll be anointed as franchise player for years to come but a lot of players are anointed that without being the best player on a great team. Obviously, he can turn out that good but I think people are kinda overhyping him right now. He has clunkers as well and there are some things that give me pause about him. Conditioning. Speed. Ball dominance. Etc. Also, he may very well be closer to the ceiling than the floor. I don’t really see how that is discounted so easily because there isn’t much rawness, some but not like a Bagley, to his game. Maybe wait to see that play out before we scoff at that notion.
It’s not like Kings fans haven’t seen a guy have a rookie season that put him in company with LeBron James and Michael Jordan rookie seasons and then turn out to barely be one of the 10 best players from his draft.
As for the actual question. I think the Kings envision a 10 deep team that thrives on ball movement and balance. A team that doesn’t have all its eggs in one basket. I think Fox is considered essential and the general of that but it doesn’t necessarily mean they expect him to be THE guy and I think it’s very likely they view Bagley as a future superstar type guy. They wouldn’t have passed on the safe pick that would spare them immediate ridicule in Doncic if they viewed Bagley as merely “a fit”. They think Bagley is going to be a killer and I can see why they thought that. The pieces are all there.
I think they believed Bagley had better upside and that Doncic had a ceiling that he’s already near. Perhaps that could have been read from Joergers comments earlier in the year but it was also a well known reason anybody was a bit apprehensive. They also haven’t been proven wrong yet but I know it’s no fun to wait and see how it plays out when we want to speak with such authority and absolutes now.
Personally, I liked Doncic and wanted him draft night because we didn’t have a SF and they were hyping Harry to the moon. Before the draft I was fighting off people underselling him based on euro baller stereotypes but I really don’t view him and never did view him as this “generational talent”. He is far from the perfect prospect and there must be some reason his euro coach passed on him and mr east euro b-ball himself Vlade passed on him. I doubt it was easy but I’m sure everybody knew he’d win rookie of the year so I doubt anybody is kicking themselves over this season.
I’m sure he’ll be anointed as franchise player for years to come but a lot of players are anointed that without being the best player on a great team. Obviously, he can turn out that good but I think people are kinda overhyping him right now. He has clunkers as well and there are some things that give me pause about him. Conditioning. Speed. Ball dominance. Etc. Also, he may very well be closer to the ceiling than the floor. I don’t really see how that is discounted so easily because there isn’t much rawness, some but not like a Bagley, to his game. Maybe wait to see that play out before we scoff at that notion.
It’s not like Kings fans haven’t seen a guy have a rookie season that put him in company with LeBron James and Michael Jordan rookie seasons and then turn out to barely be one of the 10 best players from his draft.
As for the actual question. I think the Kings envision a 10 deep team that thrives on ball movement and balance. A team that doesn’t have all its eggs in one basket. I think Fox is considered essential and the general of that but it doesn’t necessarily mean they expect him to be THE guy and I think it’s very likely they view Bagley as a future superstar type guy. They wouldn’t have passed on the safe pick that would spare them immediate ridicule in Doncic if they viewed Bagley as merely “a fit”. They think Bagley is going to be a killer and I can see why they thought that. The pieces are all there.
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I agree with everything you said, except that it is a given that Doncic will wind up being the better player in the end.
While it is obvious Luka is a great talent, we don't know what Bagley's finished product will be.
Big men take at least 3 years to reach their full potential. If you looked at DMC's rookie year, you would think he would be a very good player, but you wouldn't think he would had developed into one of the most dominant big men of his era. Bagley has a ton of growing to do as a player and what we see now, won't be the finished player in 3-4 years. Wing players tend to hit the ground running in today's NBA and Doncic is no different.
While it is clear that Doncic is special, don't judge Bagley by the small sample size we see now as a rookie coming off the bench. We will need to wait 3-4 years to truly see who is the better player.
While it is obvious Luka is a great talent, we don't know what Bagley's finished product will be.
Big men take at least 3 years to reach their full potential. If you looked at DMC's rookie year, you would think he would be a very good player, but you wouldn't think he would had developed into one of the most dominant big men of his era. Bagley has a ton of growing to do as a player and what we see now, won't be the finished player in 3-4 years. Wing players tend to hit the ground running in today's NBA and Doncic is no different.
While it is clear that Doncic is special, don't judge Bagley by the small sample size we see now as a rookie coming off the bench. We will need to wait 3-4 years to truly see who is the better player.
For me it's not even a discussion. Doncic is light years ahead of Fox already. I have seen most the the Mavs games this year on League Pass.
His court vision, IQ, Plays amazing with or without the ball, incredible instincts, is a sniper, Can shoot from every single angle on the court, he makes the players around him better, and will put the team on his back . Not for a qtr of 2, but 48 minutes. Think about the fact he's 19.
It's flat out ridiculous. Barring injury, this kid will go to a decade of All Star games and is a transcendental player.
I like Fox and he's definitely made a huge jump from last year. Not discounting his development. Fox has had a fantastic year. Doncic has far less talent around him and he's better than Fox right now.
The FO passing on Doncic was the worst gaff in Kings history and it's not even close.
His court vision, IQ, Plays amazing with or without the ball, incredible instincts, is a sniper, Can shoot from every single angle on the court, he makes the players around him better, and will put the team on his back . Not for a qtr of 2, but 48 minutes. Think about the fact he's 19.
It's flat out ridiculous. Barring injury, this kid will go to a decade of All Star games and is a transcendental player.
I like Fox and he's definitely made a huge jump from last year. Not discounting his development. Fox has had a fantastic year. Doncic has far less talent around him and he's better than Fox right now.
The FO passing on Doncic was the worst gaff in Kings history and it's not even close.
I read a lot of posters on realgm and this is a realgm type post. The over the top narrative, phrases like "light years ahead", "worst gaff in Kings history and it's not even close", "puts the team in his back for 48 minutes (I wasnt aware he played the full game, sweet)", it's all so realgm. I dont have an account at realgm but I'll figure out which poster this is. Just gotta check the Mavs board I guess.
Anyway. I cant even believe we are having this discussion.
Yeah, we could have drafted Doncic, traded Fox for Lonzo Ball and then both Laker fans would be happy and Doncic fans would be happy. And I would puke.
Anyway. I cant even believe we are having this discussion.
Yeah, we could have drafted Doncic, traded Fox for Lonzo Ball and then both Laker fans would be happy and Doncic fans would be happy. And I would puke.
It's all silly because we didn't pass Doncic then draft Fox. We already had Fox.
When you draft players that make other players redundant or may not fit in the team goals (which we were going for pace, Dallas runs a very half court game); then you have to also move pieces. And the return value we'd get on Buddy, Bogs, and even Fox if we had to trade him before he broke out this season would not be high. It is questionable if moving any of those pieces would make up for the talent differential between Doncic and Bagley multiplied by the differential of Doncic over Bogs, the player he would most likely replace.
When you draft players that make other players redundant or may not fit in the team goals (which we were going for pace, Dallas runs a very half court game); then you have to also move pieces. And the return value we'd get on Buddy, Bogs, and even Fox if we had to trade him before he broke out this season would not be high. It is questionable if moving any of those pieces would make up for the talent differential between Doncic and Bagley multiplied by the differential of Doncic over Bogs, the player he would most likely replace.
The Mavs were barely worse than the Kings last year, and arguably were better than us but also better at tanking. At the very least, the two teams are similarly stocked with talent based on WL performance.
So why hasn’t the high IQ wonderboy who makes his teammates better... well, ACTUALLY made his teammates better? They are still barely worse than the Kings. Why is that?
I don’t care about having the buzziest rookie of the season with the gaudiest stats. I care that the Fox led Kings are better than the Doncic led Mavs. That’s all I care about and that will be all I care about.
Oh yeah I forgot, it is because Sac has loaded up with Shumpert, Beli, Yogi and Giles, making the comparison unfair right?
So why hasn’t the high IQ wonderboy who makes his teammates better... well, ACTUALLY made his teammates better? They are still barely worse than the Kings. Why is that?
I don’t care about having the buzziest rookie of the season with the gaudiest stats. I care that the Fox led Kings are better than the Doncic led Mavs. That’s all I care about and that will be all I care about.
Oh yeah I forgot, it is because Sac has loaded up with Shumpert, Beli, Yogi and Giles, making the comparison unfair right?
The Kings are better because a) Joeger switched his scheme from what was arguably one of the worst schemes of the whole league last year. B) because Fox took a huge leap. Last year he was one of the worst RPM guys in the whole league, now he is a legitimate ball handling creator and we all know that the value provided by your primary ball handling creator has a pretty big correlation on your success as a team. C) Part of the scheme thing but we are playing more lineups that have four shooters, it almost automatically makes your offense better.
Dallas was 24-58 last year, thats .292 basketball. Now they are 22-27, thats .449 basketball. I would say that it looks like a pretty significant improvement. Its also extremely rare that rookie ball handling creators contribute to winning. Fox is a prime example on that. Your whole argument that Luka doesnt make his team better doesnt seem to have any basis whatsover. They were winning 29% percent of their games last year, now Luka as a rookie is their primary ball handling creator, without any one of their players taking any significant leaps they are winning 45% of their games. If you want some stats, Luka has 2.27 RPM, 3,7 BPM and 2,2 VORP aka per eye test, per traditional stats and per advanced metrics he contributes to winning and makes his team better (again, very rare for a rookie playing his role/position)
This is the thing that I personally dont like that much in this conversation. Feeling the need to trash a player or downplay his incredible performance as a rookie just because its more convinient than accepting that passing on him was most likely a mistake. Luka can be great now and Bagley can become great without those two things contradicting each other. Based on the things we've seen, the historical data we know, its most likely the case that Luka should've been our pick. It is what it is but that doesnt change just because it doesnt feel great as a fan.
Dallas was 24-58 last year, thats .292 basketball. Now they are 22-27, thats .449 basketball. I would say that it looks like a pretty significant improvement. Its also extremely rare that rookie ball handling creators contribute to winning. Fox is a prime example on that. Your whole argument that Luka doesnt make his team better doesnt seem to have any basis whatsover. They were winning 29% percent of their games last year, now Luka as a rookie is their primary ball handling creator, without any one of their players taking any significant leaps they are winning 45% of their games. If you want some stats, Luka has 2.27 RPM, 3,7 BPM and 2,2 VORP aka per eye test, per traditional stats and per advanced metrics he contributes to winning and makes his team better (again, very rare for a rookie playing his role/position)
This is the thing that I personally dont like that much in this conversation. Feeling the need to trash a player or downplay his incredible performance as a rookie just because its more convinient than accepting that passing on him was most likely a mistake. Luka can be great now and Bagley can become great without those two things contradicting each other. Based on the things we've seen, the historical data we know, its most likely the case that Luka should've been our pick. It is what it is but that doesnt change just because it doesnt feel great as a fan.
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