Back-up point guards

#31
Well last year when the Kings drafted Doubey the word was that they thought he could be converted to play PG. Unfortunatly there were not a lot of min for him anywhere much less at PG so it is still not clear if he can run the point. Of course with a whole new coaching staff it's anyones guess how much and where Doubey will play. Personally I would like to see him ge some long looks at PG during the season to see what he can do.

ditto on that.. we didn't spend a 1st round pick on him for nothing. the guy obviously has some talent otherwise petrie would not pick him in the 1st round. i'd like to see him get some spot minutes at pg and also swinging to some undersized backcourt ala jackson/bibby.
 

6th

Homer Fan Since 1985
#32
I have not been keeping up with the salary situation in any detail. So, I was wondering whether we could throw a little at Boykins if nobody else picks him up by training camp. He is still sitting at home without a contract with anyone, isn't he?
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#34
I have not been keeping up with the salary situation in any detail. So, I was wondering whether we could throw a little at Boykins if nobody else picks him up by training camp. He is still sitting at home without a contract with anyone, isn't he?
While Boykins is sitting home, we're going to have at least two or three viable candidates in training camp to consider at the 1. I really do NOT want to see us add any more aging players to our already AARP-eligible vets.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#35
I'm not particularly enamored with any of the back-up point guards that we have under contract, but I don't think that we should make an offer to Boykins: he's good at what he does, but what he does is not be a point guard. He's an energy guy/scorer. And, frankly, we already have a guy that does what he does under contract, playing his position. What would signing Boykins achieve other than taking time away from Douby?
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#36
I'm not particularly enamored with any of the back-up point guards that we have under contract, but I don't think that we should make an offer to Boykins: he's good at what he does, but what he does is not be a point guard. He's an energy guy/scorer. And, frankly, we already have a guy that does what he does under contract, playing his position. What would signing Boykins achieve other than taking time away from Douby?
With Bibby openly on the block at least part of the time, and no clear backup point guard, I think the guys who show up to training camp even halfway capable of playing the point would be very wise to pull out all the stops and leave it all on the court.

We just might find a diamond in the rough. Mustafa Shakur intrigues me for some reason.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#37
Several people have mentioned Douby as a possible back up pt guard. There have not been many 2 guards that have converted to the pt with much success. Its not impossibe, but I believe that somewhere along the line someone, whether it be in high school or college, would notice that you had the skills to play the pt. Its not fair on my part to judge Douby just yet. But, he has not shown me anything to make me believe he can be a pt guard. Its a very instinctive position. I would liken it to being a running back in football. You can have two guys with the same speed and size, but one will be great and the other is a bust. You either have it, or you don't. Don't get me wrong. Practice does make perfect, or least makes you better. But if you don't have it, you'll never be great.

At this point, I don't think Douby has it. He may prove me wrong, and I hope he does. But I'll be surprised.
 
#38
We just might find a diamond in the rough. Mustafa Shakur intrigues me for some reason.
I agree and I hope so, but this guy has a LONG way to go at the next level - to show he can handle BIG TIME pressure and shoot the rock.

Shakur was supposed to lead UofA to the promised land, but he never did. After a decent if not exceeding expectations freshman year his sophomore campaign was a jinx and his junior year worse. As a senior, his confidence seemed shot and he quickly found himself in Coach Lute Olson's dog house. The guy has lots of talent, but is just way to streaky a shooter and seemed like a deer in the headlights when real pressure got applied to him by top PAC 10 point guards of which he was not one.

This article from The Arizona Daily Wildcat is one of the best I've ever seen on Mustafa Shakur - who he is and who he is not. It appeared at the beginning of his BIG FLOP as a senior, guaranteeing he was nowhere to be seen on NBA draft night.

The 'Chosen One' leads Arizona

Senior point guard not feeling pressure, feels comfortable with teammates

By: Roman Veytsman

Posted: 11/16/06

First came a girl, then a boy, then three more girls. And then came the Chosen One. Mustafa Shakur's father wanted just one more son.

He named him Mustafa, meaning the "Chosen One" in Arabic.

"I'm very proud of that," Shakur said. "It's something big for your parents to name you that and really believe in you in that way."

The baby of the family, Shakur did indeed become the chosen point guard of his class, ranked No. 1 by some experts ahead of New Orleans Hornets point guard Chris Paul coming out of high school. A McDonald's All-American after spending two years at Friends Central High School, where he averaged 26.8 points and 6.8 assists per game, Shakur chose Arizona over North Carolina State.

But with the Chosen One label - a name Shakur wears proudly, sometimes with the words on a T-shirt - and being the nation's No. 4 prospect overall came much additional pressure.

It's pressure Shakur said he doesn't feel.

"I thought it would be hard coming in here," he said. "I thought Will Bynum would be here, so I felt like I would have to battle every day, so I kind of anticipated that it would be hard coming in here with all the expectations and people from the past, but it's only going to make me better, so I look at it that way."

Shakur would be only the fourth point guard at Arizona to start the majority of his freshman year. Since he stepped on the floor for the first time and scored 14 points against NAU, Shakur has never missed a game as a Wildcat.

He has come back from that experience and taken it as a positive one. There is no chip on his shoulder like some guys might have. From the day he stepped back on campus, he has been about the University of Arizona and our team.


- Lute Olson, UA head coach

But statistically, it has been a roller-coaster ride. His scoring, field-goal percentage, 3-point percentage and free-throw percentage took a dip during his sophomore season, a year when the Wildcats reached the Elite Eight on the shoulders of seniors Channing Frye and Salim Stoudamire.

Shakur never appeared happy, saying the team chemistry this year was "60 to 70 percent" better than that team. But despite having to defer to his teammates and not being the scoring guard he was pronounced to be, Shakur still didn't feel the pressure.

Shakur file
  • Nation's top point guard prospect in 2003, ahead of New Orleans Hornets guard Chris Paul.
  • Started all but two games for Arizona the past three years.
  • Arizona is 40-10 (.800) when he gets five or more assists, entering the season.
  • Naismith Award preseason watch list 2005-06 and 06-07.
  • Withdrew name from NBA Draft after originally declaring without hiring an agent.
"I don't really pay attention to it because when you do well you get praise, when you do bad, you don't get the accolades," said Shakur, who described himself as his own biggest critic. "That's just the way it is, the way of the world."

Shakur, who UA head coach Lute Olson described as "the hardest-working kid we've ever had in the program," made the gym his haven, working religiously on his jump shot, trying to perfect his unorthodox form.

But his shooting failed to develop, once again dipping in his junior year from 3-point range, this time to just 33.3 percent. With this year's club featuring shooters Chase Budinger, Marcus Williams and Jawann McClellan on the wings, Shakur has focused on other parts of his game.

"The thing that I've tried to get across to Mustafa for the past couple years is that if an NBA team is going to go out and get a shooter, they will find a better shooter," Olson said. "What will get him in the league is his defense and his work ethic. He has great quickness, but he has to be in that leadership role all the time. He has done a great job coming back. He is a team guy."

Although he won't talk about it, his strained relationship with last year's senior guard Chris Rodgers and an inability to be the most complete leader he could be took a toll on Shakur personally.

"I'm not going to go in the house and cry about it, but of course it's hard," Shakur said. "It makes it so much more fun when you can just come to practice and it's just basketball, it's not all the thousand things that you guys saw and heard that went on, it's just basketball."

Living with upperclassmen McClellan and Kirk Walters, Shakur has finally found a team on and off the court with which he can share his wisdom.

"I think he's been vocal, and he's really matured as a player," Walters said. "He's really come along and figured out his game that can really help us, with penetrating and knowing when to penetrate and when to take the shots. I think he's really come along a lot further from last year to this year than any other year."

Shakur's likely successor at Arizona, freshman point guard Nic Wise, has also had a more comfortable Shakur in his ear, as the two players battle each other every day in practice.

"He's been the main reason I've been playing well, because he's taking me under his wing a lot and he's helping me since he's been here for four years," Wise said.

And Shakur is grateful that he has finally found a group of players who will listen.

"It's way easier to be vocal when you have a team full of guys that are willing to listen and respect you and guys who are willing to learn," Shakur said. "It makes it easy for you to be vocal because you know they're going to listen and understand what you're talking about."

In last season's NCAA Tournament, Shakur played in his hometown of Philadelphia in front of friends and family and went off, averaging 19 points and seven assists in two games, including a 21-point, 4-for-4 3-point field goal performance in a loss against the hometown, No. 1-seeded Villanova squad.

Shakur parlayed that performance into declaring for the NBA Draft, but after a long and hard thought process, he decided to return for his senior season.

"He has come back from that experience and taken it as a positive one," Olson said. "There is no chip on his shoulder like some guys might have. From the day he stepped back on campus, he has been about the University of Arizona and our team."

As he stood on the McKale Center floor during media day in October, Shakur - who was all smiles - was asked what this year will mean to him.

Stone-faced, Shakur looked straight ahead and said, "It's going to mean everything to me because this is the year where we win it all." © Copyright 2007 Arizona Daily Wildcat

http://media.wildcat.arizona.edu/me...de/The-chosen.One.Leads.Arizona-2460722.shtml
 
#39
As I was saying in another thread, Salmons is a solid player. His ability to play 3 positions and defend at 3 positions makes him a nice guy to have. A similar player to Cisco.
Salmons is a good player, and I'm sure Coach will like his versatility. But I think his ability to fill in as a PG is limited to certain situations, e.g. where his lack of quickness won't hurt you. He's not really slow; he's just not quick. I remember Musselman had Salmons at PG early in the season and when the other team put the pressure on, Salmons didn't seem to have what it takes.

I'd actually like to see an experiment before the regular season begins in which Artest plays the starting PG, and Bibby and Hawes are the first two off the bench. If he can find/bring the appropriate attitude, Bibby might renew his career as an instant-offense 6th man where his poor defense won't hurt his team quite as much. And if Artest is given the role of chief ball handler, protector and distributor, he might be more inclined to let the better shooters on the team do most of the shooting. Well, I'm not putting any money on the outcome of this experiment, but I'd still like to try it out when there's so little to lose.
 
#40
Several people have mentioned Douby as a possible back up pt guard. There have not been many 2 guards that have converted to the pt with much success. Its not impossibe, but I believe that somewhere along the line someone, whether it be in high school or college, would notice that you had the skills to play the pt. Its not fair on my part to judge Douby just yet. But, he has not shown me anything to make me believe he can be a pt guard. Its a very instinctive position. I would liken it to being a running back in football. You can have two guys with the same speed and size, but one will be great and the other is a bust. You either have it, or you don't. Don't get me wrong. Practice does make perfect, or least makes you better. But if you don't have it, you'll never be great.

At this point, I don't think Douby has it. He may prove me wrong, and I hope he does. But I'll be surprised.
Douby played point guard full time in his sophmore season at Rutgers (he was an off-the-bench combo guard in his freshman season). I believe Douby developed into such a good scorer by his junior season and couple with Rutgers' utter lack of offensive punch from other positions that he was moved to SG.

Douby is still more of a natural two-guard. But he did have a good assists to TO ration (2:1) as a PG. He is never going to be a big assist guy, but I think he has the potential to be a good offensive PG.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#41
We just might find a diamond in the rough. Mustafa Shakur intrigues me for some reason.
He needs to make shots. Greene needs to make shots. Given the options of Shakur, Greene or Douby as potential players to back up Bibby, I'll take Douby because he can knock down a shot.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#42
He needs to make shots. Greene needs to make shots. Given the options of Shakur, Greene or Douby as potential players to back up Bibby, I'll take Douby because he can knock down a shot.
Knocking down shots is nice, but its only determinative in H.O.R.S.E. If you can't run a team, you have no right being out there as a PG no matter how well you shoot.

I am certinaly not willing to annoint Shakur as anything at this point -- he was a shaky college player, and had a rep as a bit of a headcase. But he at least looked like a real PG in summer league. Quincy has never looked like anything but a short scrawny OG to this point. Likely because that's what he is.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#43
Knocking down shots is nice, but its only determinative in H.O.R.S.E. If you can't run a team, you have no right being out there as a PG no matter how well you shoot.

I am certinaly not willing to annoint Shakur as anything at this point -- he was a shaky college player, and had a rep as a bit of a headcase. But he at least looked like a real PG in summer league. Quincy has never looked like anything but a short scrawny OG to this point. Likely because that's what he is.
You mean let someone run the point where the defense doesn't have to guard the guys outside game and gets to sag down on defense to create more problems for our offense. No thanks. I'd rather see Douby on the floor and then run our offense through Cisco or Artest. One thing that I do know is that Douby has a better chance of developing into a guy who can run the point than Shakur has a chance of sticking in the league if he can't hit a shot.
 
#44
Douby as PG, hmmm.

So far, he has managed 1.7 assists and 1.7 TO per 40 NBA minutes. That's third-lowest assists per minute for anyone on our roster (Justin Williams and Mikki Moore are lower), and an assist/TO ratio comparable to SAR (2.2:2.3 per 40). Not very encouraging.

His 3-point percentage is 24.0, lower than anybody who is not considered a PF or C. His FG percentage, 38.1, is the lowest on the team. He is also in last place for rebounds and blocks per 40. The brightest points in his rookie year was that his steals per 40 and his FT % were about average.

I keep hoping, but I haven't seen anything yet.
 
A

AriesMar27

Guest
#45
i suggested in another thread trading salmons and douby to orlando for arroyo and reddick... there would be no need to keep greene or shakur and it would free up minutes for garcia...

arroyo would be a great back up for bibby, reddick would back up martin and garcia would be behind artest...

bibby/arroyo
martin/reddick
artest/garcia
reef/thomas/williams
miller/moore/hawes

doesnt fix our frontcourt problems.... unless we trade reef and douby instead of salmons....
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#46
Douby as PG, hmmm.

So far, he has managed 1.7 assists and 1.7 TO per 40 NBA minutes. That's third-lowest assists per minute for anyone on our roster (Justin Williams and Mikki Moore are lower), and an assist/TO ratio comparable to SAR (2.2:2.3 per 40). Not very encouraging.

His 3-point percentage is 24.0, lower than anybody who is not considered a PF or C. His FG percentage, 38.1, is the lowest on the team. He is also in last place for rebounds and blocks per 40. The brightest points in his rookie year was that his steals per 40 and his FT % were about average.

I keep hoping, but I haven't seen anything yet.
Douby played 362 TOTAL minutes last year. 1/3 of those minutes were in the last 4 games, meaning he sat on the bench all year. Those stats you mentioned are worthless because the sample size is so small. He was drafted on the basis of being able to score. Call him a tweener, it doesn't matter. Throw away your positional labels. Call him the backup SG and Cisco the PG if that works better for people. The point being that a backcourt of Cisco and Douby is much, much better than a backcourt of Shakur and Cisco.

I see Douby as more Bobby Jackson than anything. What I mean by that is that Bobby was also called a backup PG but in reality, he's just one of 5 guys on the court playing ball. He wasn't a creator. He was a shooter, hard-nosed defender and rebounder from the guard spot. This is what Douby needs to model his game after. Douby/Cisco needs to be Christie/Jackson and Bibby/Douby needs to be Bibby/Jackson in short spurts. He will not be a pure PG. He will be a guy that will score and play the passing lanes. He has a good shot and he can penetrate and get to the foul line. Does his FG% bear this out? No, but if you look at Kevin Martin's stats from his 1st year, they are virtually the same thing in slightly more minutes. He's turned out ok hasn't he?

While I'm at it, Mike Bibby isn't or hasn't exactly been a playmaker in the "pure" PG John Stockton-model. He's had a pretty good career. He HAS been a PG who could run the pick and roll and pick and pop with CWebb and Miller and others. Douby at the very least needs to be able to do this....otherwise Cisco has to run this and Douby can spot up. The Kings best teams have the ones where all the guys pass the ball well and they put as many shooters on the floor as possible. Thats the NBA today. Players need to be able to hit their shots. Having a player on the floor who can't shoot at all just creates opportunities for the defense to leave guys open and double-team or to take more risks playing the passing lanes and leaving that non-shooter open.

The thing that hurt Douby the most last year was Mussleman was trying to save his job, therefore, Muss went with the vets. Now if he got more playing time, it doesn't mean that he would have flourished but at least he would have more experience under his belt. If anything, the Greene and Shakur invites, IMO, are there in case Douby doesn't come to camp ready to go. One of those guys will be kept on as the last guy on the roster in case Bibby is traded.
 
#47
I am from Arizona and a big fan of Mustafa Shakur. I believe he has the potential to be a solid pg.

I have been watching all the games of his senior season. He averaged about 6.0 assits, 12 points and 4 rebounds per game. He's never been a headcase in the team and always works very hard.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#48
I've seen very little of him but what I did see, as I said above, intrigued me. I noticed he seems to have a pretty good sense for what's going on around him (court vision). Is he more of a pure point guard? Will he be able to distribute the ball first and shoot second if necessary?
 
#49
I am from Arizona and a big fan of Mustafa Shakur. I believe he has the potential to be a solid pg.

I have been watching all the games of his senior season. He averaged about 6.0 assits, 12 points and 4 rebounds per game. He's never been a headcase in the team and always works very hard.
I don't know if Shakur's a head case or not, but Coach Lute Olson called him out numerous times as he was continuously outclassed and dominated by top PAC 10 point guards in big pressure games. Apparently, the coaches words had no affect or got into his head the wrong way as Mustafa was showing signs of being horribly overrated as a junior and by his senior year it was confirmed - and most everyone in Tucson knew it.

I like his talent overall, but he's still a BIG question mark at the NBA level. I'd give him about a 20% chance of making the Kings roster this season. Once he goes off to the developmental league and refines what he has and finally gets a decent jumper, maybe he'll land somewhere in the NBA in a year or two. Then again, maybe not.
 
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VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#50
One thing to keep in mind - if he's been invited to camp, Petrie has seen something in him he wants to get a closer look at. Who knows? Shakur could be the next Justin Williams.

:)
 
#52
He is a pass-first pg and finished his college career 3rd in assits.

Mustafa's biggest weakness is his jump shot. But at the 1st half of his senior season, he shot more than 50% in the mid-range. He did shoot terribly in summer league, but I don't think his shooting is that bad.

When he entered U of Arizona, he was ranked as a top PG. He didn't live up to that high expectation. But I can see his improvement in his last year in Tucson. He was the best PG before we played Oregon and Arizona had a 12-1 run. Mustafa hurted his ankle during our home game to Washington. Since we did't have a reliable back-up pg, he played some poor games with the injury.

Coach Olson said Mustafa is the hardest-working player in the team. Mustafa's teammate and roomate Jawaan McClellan once told me that he played the game so well because of Mustafa's cooking. Mustafa always tells him not go for junky food and eat healthy. He is a very nice and polite person.

As a pg, he might be too quiet. He was not a verbal leader and sometimes looked passively. But he is working on it,too. I was in Vegas during the summer league. Mustafa was very happy to be with his teammates in Kings.

I was so dissapointed that he was not drafted this year. He is my favorite player in Wildcats coz I know he is very unselfish and always wants a win. I hope he can do well in the training camp.
 
#53
Mustafa's teammate and roomate Jawaan McClellan once told me that he played the game so well because of Mustafa's cooking. Mustafa always tells him not go for junky food and eat healthy. He is a very nice and polite person.


This begs for a little joke. If Mustafa can't make the NBA maybe he has a career in store as a personal NBA chef for one of the leagues mega-stars. C-Webb had one. I understand he paid his cook something like $50,000 annual just to prepare gourmet meals at his Granite Bay estate when he was in town.

Nice new posts and welcome babycat. I visited Tucson a lot in the late 70's and all through the 80's when my sister lived there. She was and is a huge Wildcat fan and I got sucked in a bit.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#54
He is a pass-first pg and finished his college career 3rd in assits.

Mustafa's biggest weakness is his jump shot. But at the 1st half of his senior season, he shot more than 50% in the mid-range. He did shoot terribly in summer league, but I don't think his shooting is that bad.

When he entered U of Arizona, he was ranked as a top PG. He didn't live up to that high expectation. But I can see his improvement in his last year in Tucson. He was the best PG before we played Oregon and Arizona had a 12-1 run. Mustafa hurted his ankle during our home game to Washington. Since we did't have a reliable back-up pg, he played some poor games with the injury.

Coach Olson said Mustafa is the hardest-working player in the team. Mustafa's teammate and roomate Jawaan McClellan once told me that he played the game so well because of Mustafa's cooking. Mustafa always tells him not go for junky food and eat healthy. He is a very nice and polite person.

As a pg, he might be too quiet. He was not a verbal leader and sometimes looked passively. But he is working on it,too. I was in Vegas during the summer league. Mustafa was very happy to be with his teammates in Kings.

I was so dissapointed that he was not drafted this year. He is my favorite player in Wildcats coz I know he is very unselfish and always wants a win. I hope he can do well in the training camp.
Thanks for the info on Shakur. As far as him being too quiet, it's not a problem for the Kings. We're used to Bibby, someone who has never really been called an effective leader on the court and whose main focus off the court is clipping his cuticles.

I'll be watching Mustafa closely. I know Petrie saw something that intrigued him and I still have quite a bit of faith in his ability to spot untapped talent.

And I'll second what PurpleHaze said. WELCOME TO KINGSFANS.COM!!
 
#55
Thank you PurpleHaze,VF21 and all Kingsfan!

I will try to make a trip to Las Cruces for King's preseason game. I've never been to Sacramento. If Mustafa can make the team, I hope I can go there to support him.