2015 Draft Prospects:
- Thread starter bajaden
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I think Towns would probably be the best compliment to Cousins in this draft. However, it's very unlikely we are going to be in a position to grab him (as you mentioned).
I only see 3 other bigs in the top 10 that could be targets for Cousins running mate: Cauley-Stein, Turner, & Porzingis. Unfortunately, all of them have their faults.
Baja - Which one would you take for the Kings? I think I would opt for Turner as I think if we play good team defense, it can negate some of the athleticism mismatches. Not to mention Turner's length and size could help him recover when beat.
I only see 3 other bigs in the top 10 that could be targets for Cousins running mate: Cauley-Stein, Turner, & Porzingis. Unfortunately, all of them have their faults.
- Cauley-Stein - isn't a great shooter. In fact, a pretty poor shooter. Where do you put him on the offensive side of the ball when Cousins is working down low? It will make it a lot easier for defenses to help on Cousins with the 2nd big man defender already so deep in the paint.
- Turner - is he mobile enough to guard PFs? I know Memphis has had a lot of success with Randolph & Gasol and neither of them are considered quick for the PF position. Would a Turner/Cousins frontline be able to manage against quicker PFs?
- Porzingis - very soft, needs to work on strength, isn't a solid rebounder, and is he more of a SF? He has the athleticism, shooting, & shotblocking that we would be looking for. I just question his ability to bang down low and compete for boards.
Baja - Which one would you take for the Kings? I think I would opt for Turner as I think if we play good team defense, it can negate some of the athleticism mismatches. Not to mention Turner's length and size could help him recover when beat.
Cauley-Stein is my first choice after Towns as far as bigs go. What he brings to the table defensively more than over shadows any deficiencies he might have on the offensive side of the ball. Having said that, Stein is a far better offensive player today than he was his freshman year. I'm not going to make a case that he's now a great offensive player, but that he's now respectable. He has developed a 15 to 18 foot jumpshot, that if left unguarded, he's pretty consistent with. No he doesn't take it very often, but then he's on a team loaded with very good offensive players. His post game is light years ahead of where it was as a freshman. While I don't think he'll ever be looked at as an offensive weapon, I do think he'll get better. That aside, I think he's quite capable of scoring 10 or so points a game on hustle alone. There aren't many bigs in the NBA that will be able to outrun him. He's a terrific athlete. One stat that bodes well for the future is the improvement in his free throw percentage. He shot a miserable 37% from the line his freshman year, and this year he's shooting 60.5%. Still not great, but much closer to respectable.
After Stein, next on my big man list is Turner, and perhaps I should have Porzingis there. Problem is all I've seen of him is youtube stuff, which is nice, but it doesn't show him in real game time. By that I mean when you watching a player in a real game you can watch him off the ball. You can get a good idea of how he hustles, blocks out, sets picks, etc. So simply because I don't know enough about him to be fair, I have Turner, who I've seen play at least 10 times ahead of him. So take that for what its worth. I like Turner, and I think he's more than athletic enough to guard NBA PF's. Will there be some that give him trouble? Of course, but in a team concept he will be fine. My problem with Turner is that he spends too much time living on the perimeter on offense. Now that may be by design. I don't know. He's a better offensive player than Cauley-Stein and has a nice stroke on his jumper. Although he's only shooting around 30% from the three, I don't think there's any doubt he'll get better. He's a very good shotblocker, and a decent rebounder. I think he's at around 9 boards per 36.
So why not Turner over Stein? Stein is the overall better defender. Turner is a good rim protector, and can guard both Centers and PF's. Cauley-Stein can guard all five positions. His lateral quickness, anticipation, and length make it difficult for anyone to get past him on the perimeter, including quick PG's. You don't find 7 footers capable of that very often. I think Stein will go somewhere between 5 and 8, which would mean there's a chance he'll be there for us if we stay close to where we are right now. I think Turner will go somewhere between 8 and 12, so the odds of him being there are almost assured. Of course if we end up picking 9th or 10th, there may be another player we're more interested in because of his having a higher ceiling.
I forgot to add that recently Turner had a sort of break out game against Texas Tech with 25 points, 12 boards and 3 blocks. Why I liked the game was that he took 13 shots, and only 3 of them were 3pt'ers. Everything else was at the basket, or midrange. It shows how effective he can be.
After Stein, next on my big man list is Turner, and perhaps I should have Porzingis there. Problem is all I've seen of him is youtube stuff, which is nice, but it doesn't show him in real game time. By that I mean when you watching a player in a real game you can watch him off the ball. You can get a good idea of how he hustles, blocks out, sets picks, etc. So simply because I don't know enough about him to be fair, I have Turner, who I've seen play at least 10 times ahead of him. So take that for what its worth. I like Turner, and I think he's more than athletic enough to guard NBA PF's. Will there be some that give him trouble? Of course, but in a team concept he will be fine. My problem with Turner is that he spends too much time living on the perimeter on offense. Now that may be by design. I don't know. He's a better offensive player than Cauley-Stein and has a nice stroke on his jumper. Although he's only shooting around 30% from the three, I don't think there's any doubt he'll get better. He's a very good shotblocker, and a decent rebounder. I think he's at around 9 boards per 36.
So why not Turner over Stein? Stein is the overall better defender. Turner is a good rim protector, and can guard both Centers and PF's. Cauley-Stein can guard all five positions. His lateral quickness, anticipation, and length make it difficult for anyone to get past him on the perimeter, including quick PG's. You don't find 7 footers capable of that very often. I think Stein will go somewhere between 5 and 8, which would mean there's a chance he'll be there for us if we stay close to where we are right now. I think Turner will go somewhere between 8 and 12, so the odds of him being there are almost assured. Of course if we end up picking 9th or 10th, there may be another player we're more interested in because of his having a higher ceiling.
I forgot to add that recently Turner had a sort of break out game against Texas Tech with 25 points, 12 boards and 3 blocks. Why I liked the game was that he took 13 shots, and only 3 of them were 3pt'ers. Everything else was at the basket, or midrange. It shows how effective he can be.
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I really, really like both Stein and Towns. Give me either and I'd be ecstatic, both are pretty much perfect fits next to DeMarcus. WCS is an absolute freak athletically, how anyone can have that mobility at that size is insane. People know he's athletic, but I really think people don't know just how athletic he is. He'll instantly be one of the most athletic players in the entire NBA when he gets there, and you can quote me on that. I might even prefer him over Towns just because I think WCS is guaranteed to be one of the best big defenders in the league. Though Towns also has that same potential with the foundation of a low post game. Towns is a much better athlete than people give him credit for, though he's not quite on Stein's level.
I'm really disappointed I didn't get to see more college ball this year. Hopefully I can make up for it with March Madness coming up.
I'm really disappointed I didn't get to see more college ball this year. Hopefully I can make up for it with March Madness coming up.
Yeah I love what Cauley-Stein brings defensively, and I definitely think he's going to be a force in this league on that side of the ball. But similar to DeAndre Jordan, I'm worried how a player like that would fit into an offensive scheme that features a big man who operates on the block. I would prefer to go defense over offense if it comes down to it, but when there's a player like Turner who I can see seamlessly fitting into the Kings system on both the defensive and offensive side of the ball, it makes me stop and think.
I think Cauley-Stein can be a similar player to D. Jordan and that would be an excellent front court going forward (Cousins/D. Jordan), but Turner seems to have more of that 'Ibaka' potential without as much athleticism (Shooter, good defender, good rebounder, good shotblocker, can guard 4s and 5s, etc.). To me Ibaka, is as close as you can get to a perfect compliment to Cousins, and when I look at Stein and Turner, I see Turner having a better chance at becoming that type of player simply because he has more of those attributes (particularly on the offensive side of the ball).
If Cauley-Stein can develop somewhat of a jumper, he would easily be the pick because of his defensive potential (and if he did have a jumper, we probably wouldn't even be in a position to draft him).
Like you mentioned, he has improved his FT% by a lot this year, but that's not translating into floor spacing in real time. I understand he has plenty of time to get better and work on his game, and maybe a jump shot comes with time. Is there anything in his stroke that leads you to believe he couldn't be a consistent threat from midrange in the next couple of years?
I think Cauley-Stein can be a similar player to D. Jordan and that would be an excellent front court going forward (Cousins/D. Jordan), but Turner seems to have more of that 'Ibaka' potential without as much athleticism (Shooter, good defender, good rebounder, good shotblocker, can guard 4s and 5s, etc.). To me Ibaka, is as close as you can get to a perfect compliment to Cousins, and when I look at Stein and Turner, I see Turner having a better chance at becoming that type of player simply because he has more of those attributes (particularly on the offensive side of the ball).
If Cauley-Stein can develop somewhat of a jumper, he would easily be the pick because of his defensive potential (and if he did have a jumper, we probably wouldn't even be in a position to draft him).
Like you mentioned, he has improved his FT% by a lot this year, but that's not translating into floor spacing in real time. I understand he has plenty of time to get better and work on his game, and maybe a jump shot comes with time. Is there anything in his stroke that leads you to believe he couldn't be a consistent threat from midrange in the next couple of years?
Dime Dropper, your just the guy I was looking for. I would like your imput on Mario Hezonja. I've only seen him in one game, and of course a bunch of highlight films. He looks like a terrific athlete from what I've seen, and very skilled. He didn't play a lot of minutes in the game I watched, so that was a bit of a disappointment. Anyway, you always have excellent insights on the European players, and he looks like someone that the Kings would have to consider because of his versatility. Whats your take?
Well, the fact that he's demonstrated a mid-range jumper is enough for me. Look, with all the shooters that Kentucky has, how often do you think Cauley-Stein's number is going to get called? You seldom see him take that jumper, and on the occasion he does, it's usually because the clock is down to a couple of ticks, and he happens to have the ball in his hands. They'd much rather to to Town at 15 feet than Stein, and even he's a 3rd or 4th choice. Calapari likes to play his bigs near or under the basket. As a result, you don't get much of a chance to see them put the ball on the floor, or shoot from beyond 8 feet. But, as proven by Cousins, it doesn't mean they can't.
Let me put it this way. If Cauley-Stein started taking 15 foot jumpers on a regular basis, whether he made them or not, he'd be watching the game from the bench. Now I'm not saying that Stein is a hidden jump shooting gem. All I'm saying is that he does have a jumpshot. Actually, it looks more like a set shot, which is OK because usually he only takes it when no one is guarding him. And that's the point your trying to make. Will someone guard him in the NBA? I think he can become good enough to say yes. But I might add, that Cousins doesn't always play under or near the basket, and Cauley-Stein is excellent at cutting to the weak side of the basket if his man leaves him to double down. So Cuz would also get his fair share of assists as a result.
One final thing, and I don't want you to think I don't like Turner, but Turner will never have the defensive impact that Cauley-Stein will have. There's just no comparison athletically. Cauley-Stein impacts the game with his defensive presence more than any player in college, and I believe he'll do the same in the NBA. He's a guy that you don't care if scores a point. He's the best pick and roll defender in all of college in my opinion. A lot of shot blocking big's never leave the basket area in college. Thabeet was one of those. And those guy always struggle when they arrive in the NBA. Some are able to adapt, and some never do. Whiteside is one that adapted. That's the beauty of Cauley-Stein. He defends on the perimeter all the time, and still gets back to the basket to defend it. Anthony Davis is another that defended beautifully away from the basket. What they both have in common is terrific athleticism, and both come from the same program.
Let me put it this way. If Cauley-Stein started taking 15 foot jumpers on a regular basis, whether he made them or not, he'd be watching the game from the bench. Now I'm not saying that Stein is a hidden jump shooting gem. All I'm saying is that he does have a jumpshot. Actually, it looks more like a set shot, which is OK because usually he only takes it when no one is guarding him. And that's the point your trying to make. Will someone guard him in the NBA? I think he can become good enough to say yes. But I might add, that Cousins doesn't always play under or near the basket, and Cauley-Stein is excellent at cutting to the weak side of the basket if his man leaves him to double down. So Cuz would also get his fair share of assists as a result.
One final thing, and I don't want you to think I don't like Turner, but Turner will never have the defensive impact that Cauley-Stein will have. There's just no comparison athletically. Cauley-Stein impacts the game with his defensive presence more than any player in college, and I believe he'll do the same in the NBA. He's a guy that you don't care if scores a point. He's the best pick and roll defender in all of college in my opinion. A lot of shot blocking big's never leave the basket area in college. Thabeet was one of those. And those guy always struggle when they arrive in the NBA. Some are able to adapt, and some never do. Whiteside is one that adapted. That's the beauty of Cauley-Stein. He defends on the perimeter all the time, and still gets back to the basket to defend it. Anthony Davis is another that defended beautifully away from the basket. What they both have in common is terrific athleticism, and both come from the same program.
I'll give my opinion about him tomorrow when I'm not after having work drinks, but unfortunately I haven't seen him as much as Euro prospects in years gone by. I have seen him a fair amount though, and probably more than some of my US based friends. I like Mario but not sure I'd necessarily like him for us given that we've drafted two SGs in the last two years and I think Ben is coming around. Anyway, more on this tomorrow. I have no worries about Mario, just not sure how good he can be.
Also, I'm in total agreement with you about WCS and Towns. Both of them are top of my list, love them. Russell is my favourite guard and he could be great, but I'm taking either of the two big guys ahead of him at this point. Keep in mind I've seen far less college ball than I'd like to have at this point.
Also, I'm in total agreement with you about WCS and Towns. Both of them are top of my list, love them. Russell is my favourite guard and he could be great, but I'm taking either of the two big guys ahead of him at this point. Keep in mind I've seen far less college ball than I'd like to have at this point.
Another power forward I'm really interested in (if we draft in the 8-10 range) is Kevon Looney. He's 6'9 and has a rare combination of shooting and rebounding ability. Not a shot-blocker but should be mobile enough to guard quicker PFs and is able to put the ball on the floor or shoot of the dribble.
I like the idea of a frontcourt rotation of Cuz/JT/Looney.. If you want to play big go with Cuz and Jt, if you want to spread the floor and create more driving lanes go with Cuz and Looney. As of right now I'm liking him even more than Porzingis/Tuner because of his rebounding/toughness.
Stats-Edit: Draftexpress has him listed as 6'9.5 with shoes in 2013. He's currently shooting a 40.5 3P% at 1.4 3s per game and gets 10 rebounds in 31.8 min. per game.
I like the idea of a frontcourt rotation of Cuz/JT/Looney.. If you want to play big go with Cuz and Jt, if you want to spread the floor and create more driving lanes go with Cuz and Looney. As of right now I'm liking him even more than Porzingis/Tuner because of his rebounding/toughness.
Stats-Edit: Draftexpress has him listed as 6'9.5 with shoes in 2013. He's currently shooting a 40.5 3P% at 1.4 3s per game and gets 10 rebounds in 31.8 min. per game.
Here's the thing about WCS's offense. We don't really know if he actually has a jumper. It's a crap shoot right now. When he gets a chance to hit them, he does, but those are on limited sample sizes. To make your argument weaker, WCS is a borderline .60% ft shooter this year. That implies that he is not a good shooter. His offense should be a huge question mark. A lot of people complain about floor spacing with JT, but WCS wouldn't be any better. However, he is the ultimate fit on defense.
His offense will raise some flags because it's a huge weakness of his. No real post game nor perimeter shooting. He has a small hook shot, but most of his scoring will come from putbacks.
If only we could somehow combine WCS and Kaminsjy into one player..
His offense will raise some flags because it's a huge weakness of his. No real post game nor perimeter shooting. He has a small hook shot, but most of his scoring will come from putbacks.
If only we could somehow combine WCS and Kaminsjy into one player..
No longer a fan of Turner as I believe he'll have to succeed as a true 5 due to a lack of mobility, but: Looney is small, shoots much worse inside the arc (.594 vs .696 at the rim, .273 vs .430 on 2pt jumpers, .636 vs .832 on FTs) and relies too much on inside scoring, that he won't reproduce in the NBA with his frame. Percentages on college 3s, when it's only 1-1,5 attempts per game, are irrelevant, see Williams, Derrick. Despite spending a lot of time on the outside Turner has much more FTs.
WCS is actually rather perfect fit for ball dominant starting 5 as he moves well off the ball, including rolling to the basket. With Ben becoming a bigger part of the offense there's just no shots for a PF, and with Boogie spending a lot of time in the post all the screening work must come from PF spot, so having a guy who knows how to roll efficiently might be a better quality than shooting ability, which usually means compromise with defense.
WCS is actually rather perfect fit for ball dominant starting 5 as he moves well off the ball, including rolling to the basket. With Ben becoming a bigger part of the offense there's just no shots for a PF, and with Boogie spending a lot of time in the post all the screening work must come from PF spot, so having a guy who knows how to roll efficiently might be a better quality than shooting ability, which usually means compromise with defense.
I wasn't making an argument, I was giving an opinion. I already discussed his freethrow shooting, which has improved from 38% shooting. Kentucky runs the very offense the Kings are trying to learn. They space the floor very well, and Cauley-Stein is on that team. It's not that big a deal and to make it a big deal is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Using the spacing analysis, Bill Russell couldn't play on our team. However, I like your idea of combining Stein and Kaminsky into one player. I don't know if you saw Kaminsky play his freshman year, but he was downright terrible. And he only shot 50% from the freethrow line. He wasn't much better overall his sophmore year. Players do get better if they work hard, and Cauley-Stein is a hard worker.
Who cares about his offense! This franchise has over-valued offense enough already. He'll get 10 points a game alone from pick and rolls, put-backs and out-running his man down the court. Anything else is just gravy. He's going to be one of the best defenders in the NBA, you don't pass on that because he doesn't have a jumper.
Would you take DeAndre Jordan with a 6-9 pick? Cause I sure as hell would, and I think WCS's IQ is way higher and he's going to be a better player.
Would you take DeAndre Jordan with a 6-9 pick? Cause I sure as hell would, and I think WCS's IQ is way higher and he's going to be a better player.
But that's the problem. We don't have any PGs that can actually run a PnR or give their big men easy dunks n layups n alley oops. No offense to Collison, but he's absolutely terrible at creating shots for his big men.
Cousins is a great offensive player and I worry about the spacing. Teams will knowingly leave WCS to double team Cuz. Cuz can bardly find JT, but again JT is always just standing there. Have to think about how he'll effect offense.
Cousins is a great offensive player and I worry about the spacing. Teams will knowingly leave WCS to double team Cuz. Cuz can bardly find JT, but again JT is always just standing there. Have to think about how he'll effect offense.
I'm sorry but if Cauley Stein is on the board when Sacramento picks I am taking him, no questions asked. He can be your defensive anchor for the next decade and you make it work with him. The Kings need to start drafting defense, not offense every single year. Albeit the Kings can use offense because they have been terrible and now have a offensive minded coach, but case in point I'm taking Stein no questions asked if we are fortunate enough to be able to draft him.
Assuming that your right about out PG's, then the problem is PG, not drafting Cauley-Stein. If we have a problem at PG, the fix that problem. That's like saying I don't want to buy this great sports car because I don't have anyone that can drive it. You buy the sports car, and you find a different driver. It's time for this team to stop being reactive, and start being proactive. When the Thunder drafted Ibaka, he couldn't shoot a lick from the outside. Now he can! If you going to look at every player from the negative side, your going to miss out on a lot of very good players. I look at what a player can do, and then decide if what he can do out weighs what he can't do, and if there's potential for him to improve in his weak areas. Cauley-Stein may not at the present be able to do all the things one would like offensively, but he understands the offense, and believe it or not, that's huge. Example: Thabeet couldn't do the things you wanted offensively, but he never understood the offense. He had no feel for it, so he always looked like he was lost. Not to mention he had big problems playing away from the basket defensively. If Cuz is posting up on the left baseline, you won't see Cauley-Stein wandering aimlessly around the key like Evans does, hoping for a putback. He understands spacing.
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I like Myles Turner, but I have him behind Cauley-Stein and Towns. I don't share the opinion that he's not a good athlete. I think his athleticism is fine, but he's not near the athlete that Cauley-Stein is, and he's just not as skilled as Towns is. who is also a better athlete. I also don't like the way he tends to live on the perimeter on offense. I'd like to see him mixing it up in the post a little more, because frankly, he's a pretty good post player. I may be nit picking, and it may be by design. Texas is playing today by the way for anyone that wants to take a peek at Turner, as is Kentucky who is playing Arkansas. The Kentucky/Arkansas matchup should be a good one with Bobby Portis banging bodies with Towns and Cauley-Stein. By the way, Portis is another one of my favorites. True blue collar player that shows up to play every game. Doesn't have the leaping ability that some others have, but he can defend in the post. He gave Julius Randle fits last season.
Kentucky/Arkansas is playing on CBS at 1 pm pacific, or in ten minutes. Texas is playing on ESPN at 2 pm pacific.
Kentucky/Arkansas is playing on CBS at 1 pm pacific, or in ten minutes. Texas is playing on ESPN at 2 pm pacific.
Well to be honest, I've only seen him play 4 times. Two of those were games early in the schedule, and he only played 4 or 5 minutes in each of those games. He wasn't even noticeable. Recently I saw him against Michigan St. and Ohio St. I thought he played well in the Mich St. game, but that he struggled in the Ohio St. game. Judging from his increase in minutes, it's safe to assume he's earning more minutes. I would be shocked if he doesn't return for his sophmore year. Bottom line is that I really don't have a big enough sample size to give a solid opinion.
Note: Bear in mind, I wasn't watching these games to watch him. My focus was on DeAngelo Russell, Chris LeVert, Branden Dawson etc.
Note: Bear in mind, I wasn't watching these games to watch him. My focus was on DeAngelo Russell, Chris LeVert, Branden Dawson etc.
Just don't let him post.
http://basketball.realgm.com/analys...-And-The-Two-Way-College-Basketball-Superstar
If I were the GM of the Kings and they won the lottery I'd be looking at Russell and Towns (who I like as 1a and 1b) but also Mudiay who I personally have not watched play.
But I think the best move would be to draft Okafor/Towns/Russell/Mudiay for a team a few slots back and get WCS AND a veteran player.
Cauley-Stein is going to be in a position to contribute right away and picking up another good role player would be icing on the cake.
But I think the best move would be to draft Okafor/Towns/Russell/Mudiay for a team a few slots back and get WCS AND a veteran player.
Cauley-Stein is going to be in a position to contribute right away and picking up another good role player would be icing on the cake.
I get where your coming from, and it's certainly something to consider. But I really, really like Karl Towns. The idea of letting go of him and trading down is extremely painful. He has all star written all over him, and, he's a really good defensive player. A lot would depend on just who that veteran player is.
So I was actually looking at the teams that would be in the range to select WCS and trade him to the Kings (again, assuming Sacramento won the lottery) and there's not a lot of enticing options. I suppose Lawson for Landry and change but that's not my favorite move, especially if giving up Collison. Elfrid Payton? A nice piece but would Orlando trade him to move up a few spots? Oladipo would be off limits. The Sixers, Knicks and Lakers don't really have anything I would want.
So I'm not sure I'd trade down either.
So I'm not sure I'd trade down either.