Pretty much what I thought. I guess my point is that the league isn't really $300 million in the red and it's obvious to everyone. Doesn't mean that we don't need BRI and system changes. We do and I side with the owners on it but I think they can make do with 52% BRI, revenue sharing, stronger lux tax penalties and limiting of exceptions to the cap and lux tax.
The Lockout has arrived.
- Thread starter rainmaker
- Start date
its been awhile since i visited these parts, and even longer since i spoke up. but in considering the lockout in all of its scope to this point, i have to say that i am utterly bewildered by the lack of vision on both sides of the argument...
this isn't 1998. its not a prosperous time, but its not an ignorant time, either. you can't pull the wool over people's eyes very easily anymore. we live in the iphone age. we are clued in to the events of the lockout 24/7. last year's "decision" notwithstanding, there has never in the history of the nba been a more active offseason than the offseason that the league isn't having at the moment, if you catch my meaning. every nba fan is tuned into LEAGUE news, not just TEAM news, because there's not much team news to go around. we are ALL watching. we know--almost instantaneously--when bargaining sessions break down. and we know--almost instantaneously--what the causes of those breakdowns are. but the parties involved don't seem game to acknowledge these facts. the nba's efforts at PR during this lockout have been underwhelming at their best and pathetic at their worst. if an agreement is not reached in time to play out the majority of the season, it could conceivably take the nba decades to restore itself to the status it's managed to acquire. the nfl is still america's league, last time i checked. it will not be unseated. and baseball has weathered every steroid scandal the meatheads could throw at it. and the nba's answer to that competition, to the highest ratings it has experienced in years, is to cancel training camp, then the preseason, then the first two weeks of the regular season, with more cancellations to follow? THAT is their strategy?? are you kidding me?!
and how dare any of them even mention the word "fan" in the same breath as the rhetoric that typically houses their poor excuses for argument. all over the country (and the globe, for that matter), people are saying "i'm mad as hell and i'm not gonna take it anymore!!" why does the nba think its so special, that it can promote a legacy of greed and get away with it in 2011, in this wretched climate? ultimately, i don't care how much good the league thinks its doing for the long term solvency of the game. the owners' and players' inability to conceive of their own age is the greatest misstep of all. of course, hope is not lost that they could turn this thing around and salvage most of the '11-'12 season. doing so would repair much of the damage already done, because it would represent the league's understanding that, while the owners control their franchises, the fans line their pockets. however, every single time the owners or the players reiterate their resolve in not backing down, they reiterate their lack of respect for their fanbase. its an absolute slap in the face. while wearing brass knuckles. if crotchety, ineffectual politicians are waking up to the reality of the new social media age, to the reality that the people are always watching, you'd think that the nba, a generally PR-savvy group, would have figured it out by now, as well. what a buncha idiots. just find the middle and sign the damn thing...
edit: and the president echoes my sentiments...
this isn't 1998. its not a prosperous time, but its not an ignorant time, either. you can't pull the wool over people's eyes very easily anymore. we live in the iphone age. we are clued in to the events of the lockout 24/7. last year's "decision" notwithstanding, there has never in the history of the nba been a more active offseason than the offseason that the league isn't having at the moment, if you catch my meaning. every nba fan is tuned into LEAGUE news, not just TEAM news, because there's not much team news to go around. we are ALL watching. we know--almost instantaneously--when bargaining sessions break down. and we know--almost instantaneously--what the causes of those breakdowns are. but the parties involved don't seem game to acknowledge these facts. the nba's efforts at PR during this lockout have been underwhelming at their best and pathetic at their worst. if an agreement is not reached in time to play out the majority of the season, it could conceivably take the nba decades to restore itself to the status it's managed to acquire. the nfl is still america's league, last time i checked. it will not be unseated. and baseball has weathered every steroid scandal the meatheads could throw at it. and the nba's answer to that competition, to the highest ratings it has experienced in years, is to cancel training camp, then the preseason, then the first two weeks of the regular season, with more cancellations to follow? THAT is their strategy?? are you kidding me?!
and how dare any of them even mention the word "fan" in the same breath as the rhetoric that typically houses their poor excuses for argument. all over the country (and the globe, for that matter), people are saying "i'm mad as hell and i'm not gonna take it anymore!!" why does the nba think its so special, that it can promote a legacy of greed and get away with it in 2011, in this wretched climate? ultimately, i don't care how much good the league thinks its doing for the long term solvency of the game. the owners' and players' inability to conceive of their own age is the greatest misstep of all. of course, hope is not lost that they could turn this thing around and salvage most of the '11-'12 season. doing so would repair much of the damage already done, because it would represent the league's understanding that, while the owners control their franchises, the fans line their pockets. however, every single time the owners or the players reiterate their resolve in not backing down, they reiterate their lack of respect for their fanbase. its an absolute slap in the face. while wearing brass knuckles. if crotchety, ineffectual politicians are waking up to the reality of the new social media age, to the reality that the people are always watching, you'd think that the nba, a generally PR-savvy group, would have figured it out by now, as well. what a buncha idiots. just find the middle and sign the damn thing...
edit: and the president echoes my sentiments...
Last edited:
So if you were an owner you'd take losses and just continue running your little New Orleans Hornets (soon to be starless because your one star player will take a 7mil paycut to go play in New York with his buddies) with no chance of ever winning a championship? And oh, the NBPA wants shorter rookie deals now so that star rookie/young players can get a contract that better reflects their talent sooner. Ok, so 3 years of whatever star rookie you draft, and then they're off to join a bigger market. But you know, let's just sign the damn thing because hey at least the fans get basketball right?
exactly right. there is no league without the fans who support it. it is not the time or the place for the discussion that the nba is currently having, not when the american people are on the ground in places like oakland, being tear gassed despite the fact that their protest is overwhelmingly peaceful. it is unacceptable for an institution like the nba to bicker over how to split a multi-billion dollar pot in light of such a tense and strained economic climate. it was unacceptable in '98-'99, when the economy was healthy. its MUCH more unacceptable now. i'm just waiting for the Occupy the National Basketball Association movement to spring up...
in my opinion, you negotiate a short term deal somewhere near the middle and attempt the knockout lockout later, when you don't run the risk of alienating your entire fanbase and eliminating all of the national goodwill you've worked so hard to build in the last decade. however, the owners want to force the players' hand now because the owners know that they will not be able to get the deal they really want in an improved economic climate (should the economy arrive at an upswing anytime soon). its the very definition of greed. and it WILL damage the nba. it WILL turn fans away. do you recall the empty arenas of '10-'11, a season that was met with unprecedented media coverage? it WILL get worse...
i have ZERO sympathy for the owners. there is a massive list of massively idiotic contracts that NONE of them are willing to take responsibility for. there are clear problems with the system, but these shouldn't be insurmountable problems. parity is an illusion, and the owners are asinine to think that a modestly popular league like the nba, with all of its 30 teams, will be competitive across the board. there SHOULD be bottom feeders. there SHOULD be defections. if dwight howard leaves orlando, the magic's ownership SHOULD regret signing rashard lewis to that heinous contract, only to trade it for the even-more-heinous contract of gilbert arenas. i think collusion amongst superstars is potentially damaging to the game, so there SHOULD be measures in place to incentivize the act of sticking with your current team. but you can't force a player to remain where he does not want to remain...
regardless, these are not insurmountable problems. they're not lockout-justifiable problems. the owners are just claiming that they are, because they've behaved badly with too much money. that's on THEM. they should not be rewarded for utter irresponsibility. they should not be bailed out. once again, i'm just waiting for a group to Occupy the NBA...
edit: this article by tom haberstroh illustrates my points much more effectively:
The Payroll and Competitive Balance Myth
in my opinion, you negotiate a short term deal somewhere near the middle and attempt the knockout lockout later, when you don't run the risk of alienating your entire fanbase and eliminating all of the national goodwill you've worked so hard to build in the last decade. however, the owners want to force the players' hand now because the owners know that they will not be able to get the deal they really want in an improved economic climate (should the economy arrive at an upswing anytime soon). its the very definition of greed. and it WILL damage the nba. it WILL turn fans away. do you recall the empty arenas of '10-'11, a season that was met with unprecedented media coverage? it WILL get worse...
i have ZERO sympathy for the owners. there is a massive list of massively idiotic contracts that NONE of them are willing to take responsibility for. there are clear problems with the system, but these shouldn't be insurmountable problems. parity is an illusion, and the owners are asinine to think that a modestly popular league like the nba, with all of its 30 teams, will be competitive across the board. there SHOULD be bottom feeders. there SHOULD be defections. if dwight howard leaves orlando, the magic's ownership SHOULD regret signing rashard lewis to that heinous contract, only to trade it for the even-more-heinous contract of gilbert arenas. i think collusion amongst superstars is potentially damaging to the game, so there SHOULD be measures in place to incentivize the act of sticking with your current team. but you can't force a player to remain where he does not want to remain...
regardless, these are not insurmountable problems. they're not lockout-justifiable problems. the owners are just claiming that they are, because they've behaved badly with too much money. that's on THEM. they should not be rewarded for utter irresponsibility. they should not be bailed out. once again, i'm just waiting for a group to Occupy the NBA...
edit: this article by tom haberstroh illustrates my points much more effectively:
The Payroll and Competitive Balance Myth
Last edited:
Sounds promising, but not getting my hopes up again just yet.
http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216195/Inching_Closer_To_Ending_Lockout
http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216195/Inching_Closer_To_Ending_Lockout
Apperently a bunch (including Lebron, Paul and Melo) of the players have pulled out of the international tour at the last second. There seems to be a lot of optimism right now. Although Wojnarowski is saying there really isn't a connection between that and the belief that a deal may be on the horizon.
Last edited:
First off, let me say that I could care less what our president thinks on the issue. I'd advise him to pay attention to the real issues facing our country and leave games to others. Secondly, there is the fantasy world, and there is reality. And the reality is that the current CBA is at an end and a new one is needed. Reality is also that the players in this debate, meaning both sides, live in an entirely different world than we do. So to expect them to respond in a way that Joe Blow off the street would, is pure fantasy.
Is is good PR? Probably not, but you can't blame both sides for trying to get the best deal for themselves. Each side believes its right! I'm always amused when people say that two opposing parties should compromise. Just how in the world do you compromise what you believe to be right. Compromise to one party means the other party caves. Not going to happen! Thus you get the current situation, which I for one expected. If you didn't expect it, then your living in a fantasy world. So I'm not angry. Disappointed yes. Anxious yes. Even impatient to some extent. But not angry. I get angry over things I could have controlled, and didn't. I get angry when people are rude, or worse, oblivious to their rudeness. But I don't get angry over two sides fighting for what they believe is their fair share. Especially when the agreement they sign will in most likelyhood affect the rest of their careers.
In the end, one side will have more leverage than the other. One side will have had a better plan on how to acheive its end game, while appearing to compromise. And that side will win! The trick is to do so without the other side losing face. In the end, both side will leave the table smilling, but only one side will have won.
Is is good PR? Probably not, but you can't blame both sides for trying to get the best deal for themselves. Each side believes its right! I'm always amused when people say that two opposing parties should compromise. Just how in the world do you compromise what you believe to be right. Compromise to one party means the other party caves. Not going to happen! Thus you get the current situation, which I for one expected. If you didn't expect it, then your living in a fantasy world. So I'm not angry. Disappointed yes. Anxious yes. Even impatient to some extent. But not angry. I get angry over things I could have controlled, and didn't. I get angry when people are rude, or worse, oblivious to their rudeness. But I don't get angry over two sides fighting for what they believe is their fair share. Especially when the agreement they sign will in most likelyhood affect the rest of their careers.
In the end, one side will have more leverage than the other. One side will have had a better plan on how to acheive its end game, while appearing to compromise. And that side will win! The trick is to do so without the other side losing face. In the end, both side will leave the table smilling, but only one side will have won.
According to Grant, it sounds like they are still talking about trying to do the whole 82-game schedule. Also some similar discussion here:
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/32871/82-games-may-be-too-many
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/32871/82-games-may-be-too-many
From watching the Stern presser last night, I didn't get the impression that the NBA was going to push really hard to get 82 games in. It sounded more like Stern didn't want to take the possibility of 82 games off of the table, but that (presuming an agreement is reached) we would get as many games as practicable.
Looks like they are done for the night and will pick it up again tomorrow.
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7157736/nba-lockout-sides-wrap-talks-night-meet-again-friday
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7157736/nba-lockout-sides-wrap-talks-night-meet-again-friday
Yah it's looking nice though!!
NBA, players on cusp of agreement
NEW YORK – The NBA and Players Association have moved to the cusp of ending the four-month old lockout, and there’s strong belief on both sides that a Friday bargaining session could culminate with the framework of an agreement to preserve most, if not all, of a full season.
“It’s moved to a very good place,” one source briefed on Thursday’s 7½-hour bargaining session told Yahoo! Sports. “There’s a strong expectation [within the negotiations] that hands will shake [Friday].”
Negotiations will resume at 10:30 a.m. ET Friday with talks expected to quickly progress to the proposed revenue split between the league’s owners and players. Both sides sounded optimistic they could soon settle the major issues separating them from a new collective bargaining agreement. MORE.....
NBA, players on cusp of agreement
NEW YORK – The NBA and Players Association have moved to the cusp of ending the four-month old lockout, and there’s strong belief on both sides that a Friday bargaining session could culminate with the framework of an agreement to preserve most, if not all, of a full season.
“It’s moved to a very good place,” one source briefed on Thursday’s 7½-hour bargaining session told Yahoo! Sports. “There’s a strong expectation [within the negotiations] that hands will shake [Friday].”
Negotiations will resume at 10:30 a.m. ET Friday with talks expected to quickly progress to the proposed revenue split between the league’s owners and players. Both sides sounded optimistic they could soon settle the major issues separating them from a new collective bargaining agreement. MORE.....
Just when it looked like things were getting done, talks stalled again over the f*****g BRI split. Owners still want 50/50 players still won't go under 52/48. Ughhhhh! I don't know who to blame, i hate them both right now! http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2011/10/28/its-go-time-in-nba-talks/#
players lose about $200mil for every two weeks permanently lost here. Let's put that in perspective:
Last season the players got $2.1 billion for the season, at 57% of the basketball related income. A little quick math (2,100,000,000/ 57) tells you that means that every 1% of that BRI was worth 37mil to them. They are now fighting over 2% (the difference between 50 and 52). 2% x 37mil = 74mil. So that means that if the players holding out for 52 costs them 2 weeks of the season at roughly $200mil, its going to take them 3 years to earn that back even if they somehow do get the owners to give them 52% (and that's not happening). If the lockout costs a month worth of games it would take them 6 years to earn back what they have already lost. If it costs them any more than that they absolutely lose hundreds of millions with of chance of offset.
And the thig is the owners aren't going to give them 52. Never were. Especially aren't going to now. So the players are basically lining themselves up to be shot now by being either stubborn, deluded, or both. They'e going to lose $200mil dollars here in the next few days, and its NOT coming back. The owners aren't going to give them that 52. And its only going to get worse and worse the longer it goes on. $400mil gone. $600mil gone. By January its at nearly $1 BILLION gone and not coming back to the players. For pride? For 2%? Insanity.
Last season the players got $2.1 billion for the season, at 57% of the basketball related income. A little quick math (2,100,000,000/ 57) tells you that means that every 1% of that BRI was worth 37mil to them. They are now fighting over 2% (the difference between 50 and 52). 2% x 37mil = 74mil. So that means that if the players holding out for 52 costs them 2 weeks of the season at roughly $200mil, its going to take them 3 years to earn that back even if they somehow do get the owners to give them 52% (and that's not happening). If the lockout costs a month worth of games it would take them 6 years to earn back what they have already lost. If it costs them any more than that they absolutely lose hundreds of millions with of chance of offset.
And the thig is the owners aren't going to give them 52. Never were. Especially aren't going to now. So the players are basically lining themselves up to be shot now by being either stubborn, deluded, or both. They'e going to lose $200mil dollars here in the next few days, and its NOT coming back. The owners aren't going to give them that 52. And its only going to get worse and worse the longer it goes on. $400mil gone. $600mil gone. By January its at nearly $1 BILLION gone and not coming back to the players. For pride? For 2%? Insanity.
Dammit!!! I wonder who's not agreeing to this crap.. GET IT DONE!
I still think they will meet over the weekend or Monday at the latest and hopefully get this done.
Agree to what Brick said as well.. They are losing a LOT of money by letting games go.. I have a feeling that someone will tell the idiot players that if they continue down this road of "being ignorant" then no matter what deal they get it's still going to turn out worse for them in the long run.
I still think they will meet over the weekend or Monday at the latest and hopefully get this done.
Agree to what Brick said as well.. They are losing a LOT of money by letting games go.. I have a feeling that someone will tell the idiot players that if they continue down this road of "being ignorant" then no matter what deal they get it's still going to turn out worse for them in the long run.
Last edited:
I fear it's only going to get worse from here. Stern is now saying the league will harden it's position to make up for additional lost games. Billy Hunter, Derek Fisher, and the rest of the union are f*****g morons. Don't they know they can't win this thing? Today was probably the best offer they were ever going to get and they walked out! They're going to look like such colossal idiots when they inevitably end up settling for even less weeks or months down the road. Too bad they'll already have f****d the season by then.
Last edited:
I couldn't have said it any better! And, their problem is, the next offer will be worse than the last. The owners are also losing revenue, and they're going to do everything possible to recoup as much as they can in future offers. In essense, the loss to the players could ultimately be even worse than whats projected now. I just don't get it!!