Grades v. Hornets 11/29/09

So, same vein as last time: When Kevin comes back, what do you do with Sergio?

  • Beno backs up Reke (12min), Sergio out of rotation

    Votes: 8 9.2%
  • Sergio backs up Reke (12min), Beno out of rotation

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Beno backs up Kevin (12min), Sergio backs up Reke (12min), no Donte/Casspi SG min

    Votes: 30 34.5%
  • Trade Beno, Sergio backs up Reke

    Votes: 20 23.0%
  • Trade Kevin, Beno (or Donte) starts at SG, Sergio backs up Reke

    Votes: 28 32.2%

  • Total voters
    87
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Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#1
Boxscore

Nocioni ( C+ ) -- got off to the invisible start and made it to the first TV timeout (i.e halfway through the first quarter) with no stats of any kind. But finally hit a three off a dropoff pass from Reke, and thereafter was an occasional participant on offense, popping up for a spotup three or drive every few minutes. Got moved to smallball PF against West when we initially took out Kenny, but wasn't able to get much done defensively inside, and never showed much on the boards. When I checked the boxscore at the end of this one I was surprised to see how many points/min Noc scored tonight, because while he contributed, this was not really an impact game for him and I don't think he saw the floor in the 4th as we won it.

Thomas ( C- ) -- got the emergency start with Spencer out, and if that isn't an emergency sign that we need a third big I don't know what is. Got lit up by West in the early going, and not surprisingly could not find a role on offense. Tried to work as a passer in the 2nd and but was off target hitting guys out of stride and eventually turned it over. Not much on the glass tonight either, although it should be noted that West isd pathetically soft in that aspect himself and did not hurt us (the Hornets' PF grabbed all of 2 in 40 min). KT's lack of offense was allowing the Hornets to really load up on doubles on Reke and letting them just stand shotblockers in the paint to stop the drive, so Westphal finally went another way with us fading in the third.

Thompson ( A- ) -- the last of our true bigs, and maybe what Jason really needs is to get knocked on his *** every few games because in the wake of the big fall Friday night this was his best outing in several weeks. Got off to the active start to this one and in the early going his contributions were largely the return of his hyper garbaeman game. But also dropped a classic post move turnaround jumper in the 2nd, and wrapped up a strong first half wiht 16pts 8rebs (the second night in a row one of our bigs has dropped 16pts 8rebs in the first half against somebody). Different story after half, as Okafor came on strong and got the better of it, dominating the interior on both ends. While Jason held up his end statistically, he never was terribly effective defenisvely, and it really was 2 big games (Okafor and West) vs. Jason's one. Recovered a bit in the 4th and was active again down the stretch. May have just been tired, as as our only big over 6'7" tonight he went almost the entire way.

Greene ( B+ ) -- relatively short minutes tonight, but I have to tell you a) much better than the stats; and b) I really like what I am seeing in Donte even playing what I would consider to be out of position. There was some quick shooting early, but was also doing a nice job of creating for teammates and swung the ball willingly and rapidly whenever he was out there. Actually think our ball movement may have been better with Donte than it was with the two PGs off the bench. Showed nice defensive versatility as well, not only handling the SG duties, but doing a nice job holding off Okafor on a switch, and then blocking him out for the board off the miss. At his size showing hints he could be one of those really unique defenders able to matchup anywhere from SG to C. Derrick McKey could do that. A young Horry. Rodman (don't you dare take that comparison any further). If he can just keep his focus the potential there is tremendous. Not as effective after half and eventually left the game in favor of Beno/Sergio, but on this night I think it was really more about Reke finally struggling in a game and needing another ballhandler than it was about Donte himself.

Evans ( C- ) -- the Hornets made the conscious decision tonight to limit Reke, and they succeeded. But in the process they made things easier for other Kings all over the court and we sent them home with a loss. Works for me. The offgame is almost a relief in some ways, as if Reke kept scoring 20pts every single night a) he was going to go down as one of the best rookies of the last 20 years, and b) that 20pt night was eventually going to become a C or C+ on the Reke scale. So anyway, got off to a slow start, and already you could see the Hornets loading the paint against him. Had some early problems losing control of the ball and getting it stripped -- not sure what that was, just seemed "off". Never did get on the boards tonight either, and just in general did not seem as in command of the game as he has been. Despite the struggles his first two hoops were real highlight reel beauties of the drive. Started several two pass and an open three sequences reading doubles and finding where one Hornet player was having to cover two guys. But also got impatient with the packed in defenses and tried to force things that were not there. Showed some real defenisve intimidation in the 2nd quarter with a flying knee to the head of an unfortunate player that would have made Bruce Bowen proud. Unfortunately the victim was Beno and he was knocked to the floor stunned, and with his family in the stands too. Reke better hope daddy doesn't own a gun... Started off the third trying to post and take advntage of the huge size advantage, but both Hornets bigs were blatantly cheating off of KT and Jason and there was no path to the hoop. That strategy hasn't been as effective recently, and again it wasn't efficient tonight. We may need to draw up a better scheme to get those extra defenders out of the lane, because all its doing rihgt now is clogging up the offense. Finally started to get into a little rhythm at the end of the 3rd, but picked up an offensive foul and then fouled Devin Brown at the buzzer to prevent the leakout layup at the close of the quarter. Finally found a bit of an answer by hitting several midrange jumpers in the 4th -- and the development of that shot will clearly be the one that sets him free from these kind of defensive tactics, same way it did for Kobe. despite being moderately more effective in the 4th, never really did get that healthy rhythm down, and was largely playing off the ball late while Beno/Sergio ran things. In fact tonight for the first time we saw a three guard Sergio/Beno/Reke lineup that often had him effectively playing SF. Given the wasteland that is New Orelans' backcourt without Paul/Peja, it was a tactic wihtout any serious drawbacks. Would not want to see it against the Lakers though. :eek:
 
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#2
You know, these sort of lineup problems are not the worst sort to have. I have no clue what to do when Martin comes back.

Edit: I voted for trade Kevin. We need Okafor!
 
#3
Even with KMart back, the team needs the PG skills of Beno and Sergio. You don't have an issue until Cisco is back. Sure, Kevin will take minutes from others, but unless Tyreke suddenly becomes a PG, Sergio and Beno play by necessity.
 
#7
Another option:

Trade Kevin, move Reke to the 2, Start Beno at the point and have Sergio back him up. Kevin along with Nocioni might be able to score us something really good up front.

Gotta say, I love how Westfall gives minutes to the players who are earning them in the game, and the players don't seem to have a problem with it. Like JT said, they get the ball to the guy with the hot hand. We've had Donte, Tyreke, Beno, Hawes, and JT all be the guy that carries us on a given night, and not have a problem deferring when someone else is playing well.
 
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VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#8
I think the poll is skewed, considering Casspi has primarily been playing at the 3 anyway. But you know what? I don't have much of a problem at this point. We have, for the first time in a very long time, a bench that doesn't totally suck like a Hoover when the starters are out.

I'm going to enjoy every single minute of it and let Petrie and Co. figure out what to do when Martin and Garcia get back.
 
A

AriesMar27

Guest
#9
Another option:

Trade Kevin, move Reke to the 2, Start Beno at the point and have Sergio back him up. Kevin along with Nocioni might be able to score us something really good up front.

Gotta say, I love how Westfall gives minutes to the players who are earning them in the game, and the players don't seem to have a problem with it. Like JT said, they get the ball to the guy with the hot hand. We've had Donte, Tyreke, Beno, Hawes, and JT all be the guy that carries us on a given night, and not have a problem deferring when someone else is playing well.
you mean like my martin/nocioni for tmac trade that i made right after we drafted evans?
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#10
you mean like my martin/nocioni for tmac trade that i made right after we drafted evans?
No, I believe he said Martin/Nocioni for something good. Tracy McGrady is NOT what a rebuilding team needs and, quite frankly, he's so injury-prone anyway he'd probably trip on the tarmac at Sac. International and suffer a career-ending mishap as he got off the plane
 
#11
you mean like my martin/nocioni for tmac trade that i made right after we drafted evans?
Absolutely not. T-Mac is old and broken down. We need a solid young frontcourt building block. I'm talking about using Martin/Noc to get Brook Lopez, Al Horford, Joakim Noah, Marc Gasol, Emeka Okafor, etc. Maybe even try to go up a tier from here, although it will be pretty much impossible to pry the likes of a Howard or an Odom from their team, even with Kevin involved. If we get the right guy, our team is set for years to come.
 
#12
Aries trade idea I believe is to clear cap space. But I still don't like it. Don't wanna trade two valuable players just for cap space. I think we can get more than that for those two.
 

6th

Homer Fan Since 1985
#13
Back to the grades.......Once again, I would like an A for myself. I went to the game. They still have won every game that I have attended this year. I'm 5 for 5. I'll take some of the credit. Thank You! :p
 
K

Kingsguy881

Guest
#14
Aries trade idea I believe is to clear cap space. But I still don't like it. Don't wanna trade two valuable players just for cap space. I think we can get more than that for those two.
Actually I think it is just a 'loaded' idea, to be more precise.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#16
Back to the grades.......Once again, I would like an A for myself. I went to the game. They still have won every game that I have attended this year. I'm 5 for 5. I'll take some of the credit. Thank You! :p
I still think we should start a pool to buy you season tickets. :D
 
A

AriesMar27

Guest
#17
Aries trade idea I believe is to clear cap space. But I still don't like it. Don't wanna trade two valuable players just for cap space. I think we can get more than that for those two.
yeah... its the 20 million dollar expiring contract... if he plays for a few games thats great but its just the money that i want and to free up playing time for the young players. with martin and nocioni gone it would free up minutes for sergio, greene and casspi. we would still have garcia who can back up evans, sergio and beno can take care of pg so that leaves greene and casspi to handle sf... whats not to love about that trade? especially since tmac is not playing... we paid thomas 20 million over the last 3 years to sit on the bench. why not pay tmac to sit for 5 months... we would have 28 million in expiring contracts coming off of the books.... we could actually try to sign a free agent or 2 with that money and develop our young players at the same time.
 

CruzDude

Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
#18
When Kevin gets back that presents the kind of problems that Coaches love and Petri can help deal with. Garcia coming back a bit later is less an issue as he has experience over the kids and can play the 1, 2 or 3. But with Beno/Sergio, doubt the 1 falls to Cisco this year....or next.

Tyreke needs all of this year to learn the NBA game and the other team defenses and how to kick-out. But he needs big minutes. However, having never played more than 38 games in a year, he will "hit the wall" sometime in February or March and need his minutes reduced. So Tyreke is the starting 2 therefore Martin has to go to the 3 which means the defensive use of Noce, Casspi and Greene drops.

But Greene is really breaking out this year based on the past 5-6 games. Getting all those minutes now and demonstrating his new found ability will not sit well at all if he slips down the bench.

So somewhere in all this IMHO we need a trade in the 3-4 weeks after Martin then Cisco get back to 98%. A trade for a defender/shot blocker for the 5.
 
#19
I say give Sergio an A. He played 24 minutes and scored 24 points. I really like the way Sergio and Beno run the offense. Tyreke just takes too long. When he gets the ball, everyone just stands around. However, when Sergio or Beno push the ball up the court, players are moving to the basket. There's more ball movement when those 2 are the PGs. I know its going to take time for Tyreke, but man, with Sergio and Beno there is so much more ball movement and is just so fun to watch.
 
#20
I think the poll is skewed, considering Casspi has primarily been playing at the 3 anyway. But you know what? I don't have much of a problem at this point. We have, for the first time in a very long time, a bench that doesn't totally suck like a Hoover when the starters are out.

I'm going to enjoy every single minute of it and let Petrie and Co. figure out what to do when Martin and Garcia get back.



VF21- I'm with you.
 
A

AriesMar27

Guest
#21
Absolutely not. T-Mac is old and broken down. We need a solid young frontcourt building block. I'm talking about using Martin/Noc to get Brook Lopez, Al Horford, Joakim Noah, Marc Gasol, Emeka Okafor, etc. Maybe even try to go up a tier from here, although it will be pretty much impossible to pry the likes of a Howard or an Odom from their team, even with Kevin involved. If we get the right guy, our team is set for years to come.
with the capspace we could trade for one of those players... especially okafor. the hornets would make that deal in a heartbeat, okafors 5 yr deal for cash? are you serious? brook and al arent available neither is noah...

think about how much capspace we would have with tmacs 21 million and thomas' 7.5 million... the only player that we would have to resign is sergio and add any drafted players. 20 million is a lot of money to throw at a player... maybe bosh wouldnt mind playing with evans if he were making just as much here as he would with the raptors...
 
#22
Do we have the best bench in the league? I don't watch every other team on a nightly basis but I think we do... mabye not "talent wise" but in terms of production I'm not sure if it gets any better.
 
#23
when kevin gets back..

the thing about westphal is he plays players based on the matchups. Thats why some nights donte gets 32 minutes and other nights he only gets 12.
And this style of coaching seems to be working very effectively.

I can see Kevins minutes dropping if he isnt playing defense, I dont think Westphal will be scared to take him out of the game.. if hes playing poor.
And put Sergio/Beno/Casspi/Donte in depending on the matchup.

IMO we play martin too much anyways, with the talent we have now we could play martin 27-32 minutes a game and still win games.
 
L

LWP777

Guest
#24
Martin is going to help a lot. You saw tonight that the Hornets jammed up the middle to stop Tyreke and they decided to let other players beat them. We have some adequate shooters right now but they aren't sharpshooters. With Kevin back (and even Francisco) it's going to open up the middle a lot because they can't let Kevin spot up uncontested on the wings.
 
#25
Beno had another good game. The thing is that next year he's basically tied with Nocioni as the 2nd highest payed player on our team.
We all lamented the fact that Geoff waited too long to trade Bibby and Miller and that had he traded them earlier we might have received a lot more value for them. (I understand that the Bibby trade was financially motivated and from that standpoint it was a success, but bear with me...)

Beno may be able to keep this up for another 60+ games, or he may slowly decline, or he may get injured and have it hamper his season. All I know is that Sergio can bring some of the things which Beno brings, but at a far lower cost.

Coming into the season I felt that the only way we'd ever be able to trade Beno would be to package him up with a good player (Kevin/JT/Hawes, ect.), but now with the way he's playing it looks as if we might actually be able to trade him and get good value. (Important piece to bring in a big man, expirings, or picks)

As to why Beno is playing better, I think there are three primary reasons:

1.) He's healthy. (Don't know how long it will last, but would rather trade him before something happens.)
2.) He's got Tyreke to basically soften up the other team, which relieves pressure from him and makes it easier for him to get into his flow.
3.) He's got a good coach in Westphal who is letting him play to his strengths and not his weaknesses. From a mental/confidence area I think this is crucial for Beno.

So it's my opinion that there are a lot of players we'd be able to bring to our team who would benefit from Tyreke and Westphal and play the same role as Beno but for a far more reasonable contract.

If we have the opportunity to trade Beno for something that makes sense, then we should do it.

Just because I'm in favor of trading Beno doesn't mean that I'm against trading Kevin. Thing is, unlike Beno, Kevin could be the primary trading piece to bring back in a star-type player. If we have the opportunity then I say we pull the trigger even if we haven't had the opportunity to see Tyreke and Kevin play a lot together. But unless we're able to bring in a star player, I'd rather wait to trade Kevin to see how well he can play with Tyreke.

---------------------------

But if I had control of the team right now I would consider my assets for trading to be:
1.) Nocioni (Great player for championship contender)
2.) Beno (Showing to be a very good PG and could help a team desparate for one)
3.) KT's expiring
4.) Potentially Kevin if the right offer came along or I felt I could get something which would better help with championship aspirations.
Note: Ultimately I think that Garcia is a bit of a better fit with this young team, so I'd prefer to move Nocioni rather than Garcia, however, if a trade was available and the team wanted Garcia over Nocioni, I'd have no problems interchanging them.

------

Assuming the above assets I would consider my priorities to be:
1.) Get a big man. (Either a star [meaning Kevin's included], or a young defensive-minded center to grow with the rest of the young team)
2.) Clear up space for Donte and Casspi. (I really think that if Donte continues to mature he could be our starting SF. He's got the athletic ability and the skills. His man-defense, shotblocking, passing, and shot-selection has been superb the last few games.)
3.) Get out from under the long contracts of players who aren't considered part of our young core, with the hopes of either getting young talent, expirings, or picks.

-----

I think we have a great young core, and I want this year to be used to maximize their time together in developing chemistry. It's all quite exciting.
 
#27
the thing about westphal is he plays players based on the matchups. Thats why some nights donte gets 32 minutes and other nights he only gets 12.
And this style of coaching seems to be working very effectively.

I can see Kevins minutes dropping if he isnt playing defense, I dont think Westphal will be scared to take him out of the game.. if hes playing poor.
And put Sergio/Beno/Casspi/Donte in depending on the matchup.


IMO we play martin too much anyways, with the talent we have now we could play martin 27-32 minutes a game and still win games.
I think this is what needs to happen. We can't treat Kevin like he is the man just based on the fact that he can score... we need to treat him like the rest of our players. Obviously we want him to get a consistent 25-35 minutes a game to keep him happy, but we shouldn't play him an entire game based on the fact that he can score. If Hawes or Thompson isn't working out in a particular game Westphal doesn't hesitate to put in KT, Brockman, or Greene. The same should go for Kevin Martin. Just do what works basically. So far Westphal has proven to be great at matching up to other teams, which him as the coach having more options available will just make us that much better.
 
#28
This team is better without that softie, spencer hawes.
Like I said in the post above... the more options available the better we are with Westphals coaching style. So I would have to disagree with this statement. However, in a style where we are FORCED to play Hawes 30-35 minutes every single night, even when he is sucking it up, you could have an argument.
 
#29
So we play great without Garcia, Martin, and Hawes. Only one game without Hawes, but the plot of our Kings' franchise continues to thicken....

Right? Hopefully I am not alone on this one..
 
#30
So we play great without Garcia, Martin, and Hawes. Only one game without Hawes, but the plot of our Kings' franchise continues to thicken....

Right? Hopefully I am not alone on this one..
While the team has certainly been playing well let us not forget that the teams we've won against aren't exactly good teams, save for the Jazz probably.

NO was missing paul and peja. Missing paul basically.
 
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