Warriors post-game discussion

[6th]

I attended my first Kings game of the season (well, pre-season) and the Kings got their first win. I will take the credit, thank you.

Had a great time.

Tyreke is gonna be something. He runs the offense soooo much better than Beno. JT was (is) a beast on the boards. I love it. Casspi all out hustles and played some pretty good defense. He just needs to slow himself down a bit. A couple of travel calls were just Casspi playing a bit out of control. Brockman didn't get much time, but he sure goes after those boards.

This could be a very fun team to watch. Overall, I was not thrilled with our bench, but the starters played well together.

 

[VF21]

Do you expect any improvement in defense this season? I honestly see the same bunch of slackers we had last season

I've heard from three different people who attended the game that they noticed a couple of things:

1. Players, including Martin, were actually playing defense.

2. The team is clearly listening to Westphal, and he is reciprocating by making sure they get the pat on the back when they do well.

I can't wait to see for myself.

GO KINGS!!!

 

[IDidntDoDat]

I've heard from three different people who attended the game that they noticed a couple of things:

1. Players, including Martin, were actually playing defense.

2. The team is clearly listening to Westphal, and he is reciprocating by making sure they get the pat on the back when they do well.

I can't wait to see for myself.

GO KINGS!!!

Wow, that's great to hear..Looks like the new coach might be for real.. I can't wait to see for myself either! Hopefully the defense will pick up, since scoring points probably won't be much of a problem with this roster

 

[Kingsguy881]

I've heard from three different people who attended the game that they noticed a couple of things:

1. Players, including Martin, were actually playing defense.

2. The team is clearly listening to Westphal, and he is reciprocating by making sure they get the pat on the back when they do well.

I can't wait to see for myself.

GO KINGS!!!

I took my son to the game tonite, and between him talking incessantly, this is what I gathered:

Beno is a wonderful backup pg. He is able to come in and give the defense a second look that at times will throw them off balance and he will be able to create. However, he can be a defensive liability. You should have seen Ellis's eyes light up when he saw Beno was on him.

Martin is Martin, we know what he can do and if he is healthy he will contribute to victories just by piling on the points at a very healthy and respectable clip. What I liked was at one point he missed an assignment and turned around to place blame and everybody else had their head down so all he could do was shrug it off and make up for it later. He was active defensively, really looking to hustle but its obvious playing offense is his favorite thing to do.

Brockman is going to make a lot of fans happy.

JT is a beast, plain and simple. Glad I drafted him, btw. He is of a different mold than Randolph, more of a traditional hustling/active pf who can face up and hit the jumper. He has the potential to pass well, him and Spence had a couple nice interior plays where they hit each other for better looks. Look for him to be extremely active but more under control, in much better positioning on the court.

Spencer will get better, he has pride and just like last year in the preseason, he got outplayed early due to some nagging injury and then stepped it up as the season wore on. He was active around the hoop in this one, using his hook and fakes regularly to a good rate of effect.

Omri is a heckuva addition to this squad. He is soon to transplant Noc with his hustle, skill, and ability. He is just GOOD, I remember somebody saying that his jumper reminded them of Marion and I would venture so far as to say his GAME reminds me of Marion. I like this kid, and VF21 might have gotten a steal in our fantasy league. Not someone who will contribute ALL the time, but he will contribute across the board and do it well, when he does.

Mason is Mason, I follow hoops via fantasy so nothing he did surprises me. He is still the same old Mason, athletic, no perimeter game to speak of. Which is probably why Casspi looked so good. Casspi can hit the jumper. 15-20 feet out, even further if he is set.

And it was really nice to see them out there with sets being ran and spacing. They looked a little ragged at times, but by watching it tells me it was more about them thinking too much and not just knowing where they needed to be. Especially JT. He is learning where he needs to be on the court and you can just see the progression in the stats.

 

[gunks]

Thanks for the firsthand account! So Omri looks good huh? I've all but given up on Greene....Could be premature, but having another young SF that actually shows something on the court doesnt hurt.


As TDOS comes to an end, I gobble up any info on our young squad all the more voraciously.

 

[Kingsguy881]

Oh yeah, forgot one thing:

Tyreke Evans. Tyreke is a rookie, lets just throw that out there. Treke is going to make mistakes, look human, that sort of thing. But when he finally decides to take over a game, there are going to be a lot of oohs and aahs from those watching him. The kid has that swag, the demeanor, the sense about him that this may be the biggest stage in basketball, but once he sets his mind to it he is going to dominate it. He has been playing possum, so to speak, so far in the preseason. He has the ability to just drive, break down the defense and either dish it or shoot it. Now so far, he has his body control down, but he is not used to the ahtletic ability of the big men patrolling the lane. That will be figured out by midseason. The other problem is his jumper, which is reliable at best, but not overwhelmingly effective. That can be worked on. You can develop a jump shot, but athletic ability and body control are much harder to. Look for Tyreke to make a SERIOUS push for ROY come pre-all star break and beyond.

 

[rainmaker]

Just got back from the game. First off, let me just say this team is completely different from last years team. They play much harder, ball movement is better, defense looks better eventhough its definately a work in progress, and the guys really seem to be buying into Westphal's system and it really appears that everyone respects the guy. Here's what my opinions are on what I saw.

Tyreke- Can get anywhere on the floor he wants. Monta's speed didn't seem to be much of a problem, he blocked 2 of his shots. Did well in the post. Sloppy with the ball in the 1st half, much better in 2nd. umper needs work but looked better than vs lakers. Most impressive thing I noticed, Tyreke can control the flow of the game, and doesn't seem to get rattled at all.

Kevin-Actually played defense. Not great, but better effort on that end than we have seen the past 2 seasons. Got to the line at will, didn't force it too much on offense, and seemed to be looking for his teammates more than usual.

Mason-Veteran presence. Played solid, didn't make mistakes. Real physical on D. CAN'T SHOOT. I like his presence on the court, and he is one of our best defenders. But am I the only one nervous about the idea of him starting? The idea of adding Tyreke as a beast of a pg next to Kevin was to stretch the defense, and Mason can almost cancel the effect Tyreke has had because he isn't a threat to do anything on offense. He can't shoot at all! Way below average. Not even a threat from 18+ ft.

JT- He's a monster. Saw that a few people here said he was a garbage/hustle player this morning. Must be the most talented garbage player I've ever seen. Seems to be improving by the week. Very impressive on the boards, hit a few jumpers, finished better inside than he has in the past, noticed improvement on defense, and showed the ability to pass(something new from him). Downside: did this against one of the least physical frontlines in the nba.

Spencer- He's trying to be more of a presence down low, but it will take time. Played within himself, nothing really stood out. Overshadowed by JT, although they play off each other real well.

Omri-This guy is our future sf. Still tentative as expected, but still looks like he belongs. Doesn't make mistakes, or force the offense. Physical on defense, doesn't seem to be intimidated at all. But I love the all-around game Omri has,and I see flashes of what he could be. I am really excited about him. I think he can contibute consistently this year. After he adds some muscles and gains some experience, he could be an absolute steal at #23.

Overall, I'm excited about this team. Jt and Hawes are maturing(Jt at a rapid rate), kevin looks healthy and seems to be recomitting himself to defense, and Tyreke could be an absolute star in a few years. But, most importantly, for the first time since adelman, this team seems to have a coach they fully support and believe in.

 

[VF21]

6th, Kingsgurl881 and rainmaker... You guys rock! Thanks for the great feedback.

Sounds like a lot of people are getting excited about this group of kids with heart and hustle.

I LOVE THIS TEAM!!!

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

Box score highlights:

Kevin Martin : 32 points (8/15 FG, 1/3 3pt, 15/15 FT), 3 assists, 2 rebounds, 1 steal, 2 TO's

Jason Thompson: 20 points (9/17 FG, 0/1 3pt, 2/3 FT), 20 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 blocks, 1 steal, 3 TO's

Tyreke Evans: 16 points (7/14, 2/3 3pt, 2/3 FT), 6 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 block, 6 TO's

Spencer Hawes: 11 points (5/12 FG, 1/3 3pt, 1/2 FT), 9 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 blocks, 3 TO's

Kenny Thomas: DNP-CD

 

[Telemachus]

Box score highlights:

Kenny Thomas: DNP-CD

Thanks! I needed a good laugh.

 

[Sac.1989]

AHHH top analysis and insights everyone, great news. Looks like the team is coming along well starting from the top with a coach who seems to have the respect of the players and a system that works. All our additions sound solid and were moving very well in the right direction

 

[Jkbiker]

Went to the game last night, was nice to see the boys win even if in pre-season. GS had a short rotation due to injurys, but PW kept the rotation to 10 and played starters at end I think for first time. most comments from the people that went to game was right on but wanted to *** a few comments:

Mason? he must still be on comeback trail besides terrible shooter I wasnt that impressed with our "lock-down defender"

GSW poor shooting, not even looking for rebounds, our turnovers is what kept score close most of the game

Stats are wrong Brockman had more than 16 sec, got some great rebounds, had fans pumped up just on those

Sean May had several nice shots, held his own against the small ballers

Spencer didnt seem together yet, several times players missed 2 or 3 right under bucket and spencer cleaned up play with a tip in, his down low post moves even against so so bigs were not falling, floated outside drained a three then missed two more from threeland. Still waiting for the real Spence to show up

Tyreke, well what hasnt been already said LOVE THIS GUY!
If he can curb the rookie turnovers, whats not to like! even shot ball from the field well

Beno had several flashes of old Beno where he would take it to the bucket for points and several nice pull up jumpers. He likes PW's system, I think he may turn out to be a nice backup

Cant say sane for Nocioni, didnt do jack last night, feelings hurt because was pushed to back up by Desmond Mason? guess I would be pissed too

Desmond on one play went up for a rebound, GS player grabed his shoulder from behind pulled him down landed flat on back HARD with a thud, and Desmond still got called for loose ball foul. OUCH sure that helped his back spasms

Really liked Omri last night, still too many rookie mistakes, but his shots were falling, great hustle, I agree with most posters that give him minutes and a season to develop and think we have a keeper!!!

Kudos to JT and Kevin for awesome game, and thanks PW for going for a win, the boys need the confidence!!

Kings Rule!!!!

 

[bajaden]

I had a friend at the game last night in the lower section. He's not a member here, so I'll relate what he told me, trying not to be redundit. Thompson was a monster. The Warriors had no one that could handle him, and that his defense was much better than last year.

A couple of Hawes fouls were on calls where my friend thought Spence had clean blocks. Just didn't get the call. Evans created a nightmare for the Warriors. They tried guarding him with five different people and ended up with Jackson on him, who finally did a pretty good job.

He thought that Beno was a mixed bag. Real bad at times, and really good at times. Evans should have once again had more assists but instead of a basket, his passes sometimes led to the foul line. Mason played solid defense, but little else. 4 of Evans 6 turnovers were unforced, meaning just rookie mistakes. He really liked Casspi and his energy, although he's erratic and got his butt chewed by Westphal for making mistakes.

All in all the thought the team played much harder than last year, and that the defense, while not perfect, had no lapses.

On a personal note. I saw a video on youtube, which I think was from NBA.com. It showed Evans posting up, I think Curry, but could be wrong. It was almost comical. There was absolutely nothing Curry could do. It was like candy from a baby. Evans is the real deal folks.

 

[Emma]

Oh, I see what's going on here. The after game analysis and chatter has been split from the game thread.

Overall, I am very glad that we have a team that has inspired so many people to contrast and compare. My sister went to the game; I can get some perspective about it from her, her being a fair weather fan and all.

 

[CruzDude]

Like the PostGame chat separate from game thread. much more objective. Progress (team wise) is something we have had difficulty seeing the past 3 years or so. Just from Laker game few days ago to this is tangible progress for the kids. It's gonna take time but every little visible piece of progress is encouraging (for a change!).

Starters seem set so now need to see who become the 6-7-8-9-10 pieces until Cisco gets back in Feb. Gonna have patience with May and hope he becomes a beast-off-the-bench type.

 

[Section 101]

I attended my first Kings game of the season (well, pre-season) and the Kings got their first win. I will take the credit, thank you.

Had a great time.

Tyreke is gonna be something. He runs the offense soooo much better than Beno. JT was (is) a beast on the boards. I love it. Casspi all out hustles and played some pretty good defense. He just needs to slow himself down a bit. A couple of travel calls were just Casspi playing a bit out of control. Brockman didn't get much time, but he sure goes after those boards.

This could be a very fun team to watch. Overall, I was not thrilled with our bench, but the starters played well together.

Sorry, but Evans doesn't run the offense better. He looked better in the first quarter with the starters when they were hitting shots. The second unit could barely hit the backboard. In the 3rd quarter Evans was pulled early and Beno came in and they went on a run.

I know people will see this as just being a hater.

Evans needs to learn not to pick up his dribble when he drives. Too many times he drives picks it up with a plan on where the ball is going. If a defender comes over he has problems finding the open man. Yes he does make some plays but they are all in front of him. Same thing when making passes in the half court offense. If the play is in front of him he makes good passes. But his periferal vision is lacking.

On the positive side his jumper has gone from fubar to fugly. Its gone from behind his head to on top of it.

 

[VF21]

Desmond on one play went up for a rebound, GS player grabed his shoulder from behind pulled him down landed flat on back HARD with a thud, and Desmond still got called for loose ball foul. OUCH sure that helped his back spasms

From what I heard, the GS player was none other than Mikki Moore.

Oh, I see what's going on here. The after game analysis and chatter has been split from the game thread.

Yep. Seems to work out better and comments don't tend to get lost in the shuffle quite so easily.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Starters seem set so now need to see who become the 6-7-8-9-10 pieces until Cisco gets back in Feb.

So you think Mason has locked down the starting spot at the three? Sounds like he hasn't been terribly impressive on the defensive end, and we know he can't shoot. I know Westphal has said he prefers Nocioni off the bench...but is there no chance for Omri to grab the starting slot?

 

[6th]

So you think Mason has locked down the starting spot at the three? Sounds like he hasn't been terribly impressive on the defensive end, and we know he can't shoot. I know Westphal has said he prefers Nocioni off the bench...but is there no chance for Omri to grab the starting slot?

Omri is still learning. As was mentioned by someone, Coach chewed him out a couple of times. Having said that, if Omri keeps learning and settles in, I can see him as a starter (just later in the season). I think that the starters are set, but only for now.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

So you think Mason has locked down the starting spot at the three? Sounds like he hasn't been terribly impressive on the defensive end, and we know he can't shoot. I know Westphal has said he prefers Nocioni off the bench...but is there no chance for Omri to grab the starting slot?

My comments are based purely off box scores and recaps .. so keep that in mind.

But I think Omri can still grab that starting spot. His production statistically has been better than Mason almost everywhere. Defense is hard to track with a box score, but I see Omri getting some blocks and steals, so who really knows.

One big step last game was that Omri was in there in crunch time. He came out with about 2 mins to go in the fourth when we we up by 10, but he was in there early in the fourth when we started to slowly pull away. It was strange though because he was in there with Mason, JT, Martin, and Evans. So who knows whats going on with Hawes.

Westphals rotations thus far have been rediculously different game to game. So I wouldnt say Mason starting is a lock, especially if he continues to do nothing tangible out there. Personally, I hope the ' trying how players play together ' phase slowly goes away so we can really set ourself up for the season, because right now im not sure if we've figured anything out.

 

[bajaden]

I know people will see this as just being a hater.

No, I just think you come from a different prespective. Most people on this fourm are pretty knowledgable basketball fans. We all know the problems with the team. We all know that Evans is a work in progress where playing the point is concerned. So were looking for overall progress.

I'm sure that someone can and probably will look at Thompson's 20/20 5 assist night, and find something wrong to point out. Hopefully only Westphal! But most of us are trying to look at the big picture and see whats good about the team compared to last year. I can't really comment on last nights game. I wan't there and it wasn't televised. So I relied on a friend. And he's a pretty knowledgable guy that really knows basketball. So I trust him. And to be honest, I didn't post some of the negatives he pointed out. I figured why not just have a day of positives for a change.

All I'll say is this. My friend played point guard in college. He wasn't as thrilled with Beno's play as you were. But he did say he had some good moments in the second half.

 

[Merdiesel]

Just got back from the game. First off, let me just say this team is completely different from last years team. They play much harder, ball movement is better, defense looks better eventhough its definately a work in progress, and the guys really seem to be buying into Westphal's system and it really appears that everyone respects the guy. Here's what my opinions are on what I saw.

Tyreke- Can get anywhere on the floor he wants. Monta's speed didn't seem to be much of a problem, he blocked 2 of his shots. Did well in the post. Sloppy with the ball in the 1st half, much better in 2nd. umper needs work but looked better than vs lakers. Most impressive thing I noticed, Tyreke can control the flow of the game, and doesn't seem to get rattled at all.

Kevin-Actually played defense. Not great, but better effort on that end than we have seen the past 2 seasons. Got to the line at will, didn't force it too much on offense, and seemed to be looking for his teammates more than usual.

Mason-Veteran presence. Played solid, didn't make mistakes. Real physical on D. CAN'T SHOOT. I like his presence on the court, and he is one of our best defenders. But am I the only one nervous about the idea of him starting? The idea of adding Tyreke as a beast of a pg next to Kevin was to stretch the defense, and Mason can almost cancel the effect Tyreke has had because he isn't a threat to do anything on offense. He can't shoot at all! Way below average. Not even a threat from 18+ ft.

JT- He's a monster. Saw that a few people here said he was a garbage/hustle player this morning. Must be the most talented garbage player I've ever seen. Seems to be improving by the week. Very impressive on the boards, hit a few jumpers, finished better inside than he has in the past, noticed improvement on defense, and showed the ability to pass(something new from him). Downside: did this against one of the least physical frontlines in the nba.

Spencer- He's trying to be more of a presence down low, but it will take time. Played within himself, nothing really stood out. Overshadowed by JT, although they play off each other real well.

Omri-This guy is our future sf. Still tentative as expected, but still looks like he belongs. Doesn't make mistakes, or force the offense. Physical on defense, doesn't seem to be intimidated at all. But I love the all-around game Omri has,and I see flashes of what he could be. I am really excited about him. I think he can contibute consistently this year. After he adds some muscles and gains some experience, he could be an absolute steal at #23.

Overall, I'm excited about this team. Jt and Hawes are maturing(Jt at a rapid rate), kevin looks healthy and seems to be recomitting himself to defense, and Tyreke could be an absolute star in a few years. But, most importantly, for the first time since adelman, this team seems to have a coach they fully support and believe in.

Everything you guys are saying really gets me pumped but that statement right there is by far the most important. GO KINGS!!!!

 

[Section 101]

No, I just think you come from a different prespective. Most people on this fourm are pretty knowledgable basketball fans. We all know the problems with the team. We all know that Evans is a work in progress where playing the point is concerned. So were looking for overall progress.

I'm sure that someone can and probably will look at Thompson's 20/20 5 assist night, and find something wrong to point out. Hopefully only Westphal! But most of us are trying to look at the big picture and see whats good about the team compared to last year. I can't really comment on last nights game. I wan't there and it wasn't televised. So I relied on a friend. And he's a pretty knowledgable guy that really knows basketball. So I trust him. And to be honest, I didn't post some of the negatives he pointed out. I figured why not just have a day of positives for a change.

All I'll say is this. My friend played point guard in college. He wasn't as thrilled with Beno's play as you were. But he did say he had some good moments in the second half.

And like I said. I in the 2nd quarter beno was playing with the 2nd unit and they all looked horrible. Beno looked much better in the 3rd quarter with the starters. Look at the +/-. The starters were all over +10 while the bench was all over -10. All the starters came back in at the 7 min mark in the 2nd quarter after the bench lost the 15 pt lead.

All I'm saying is you have to look at the context to say one is running the team better. Ya, it looks better when you have Martin and JT making baskets vs the bench missing everything.

I thought Greene did a decent job too. He was playing some D and didn't force any shots. He looked more comfortable out there. He also wasn't just standing in he corner. He was moving and setting screens.

 

[VF21]

And like I said. I in the 2nd quarter beno was playing with the 2nd unit and they all looked horrible. Beno looked much better in the 3rd quarter with the starters. Look at the +/-. The starters were all over +10 while the bench was all over -10. All the starters came back in at the 7 min mark in the 2nd quarter after the bench lost the 15 pt lead.

All I'm saying is you have to look at the context to say one is running the team better. Ya, it looks better when you have Martin and JT making baskets vs the bench missing everything.

I thought Greene did a decent job too. He was playing some D and didn't force any shots. He looked more comfortable out there. He also wasn't just standing in he corner. He was moving and setting screens.

I just finished reading a good piece about Greene in this morning's Bee. It basically said he's working hard on his shot selection, which has been the reason he's been yanked from games at times. He's actually learning that good defense can lead to offensive opportunities...

 

[kennadog]

I was there last night. Nice to see our young guys get a win. And shut up the Warriors' fans. (There were a few in the house.) Evans is 20 yo and a rookie and learning to play the point. I still thought there was just a better feel to the offense when he was out there. He is just so calm and confident. He is honestly amazing. Impressive moves to the basket and he made a great pass to JT, driving under the basket passing around the defender's back to a JT headed to the basket for a dunk.

I think Beno is playing harder than last year and he has said he likes Westphal's system. I just don't trust Beno yet. We've been fooled by him before.

The whole team had too many turnovers. Hopefully its only a young team's growing pains. Great rebounding and some great blocks, but its not like the Warriors are really tall or strong. I still liked the effort.

I liked Omri's effort. I thought he played pretty good defense on Jackson a couple of times. He certainly wasn't intimidated. He's said that back in Isreal they don't have access to the kind of equipment and training available here. With that advantage available to him now, I think he can become a very solid player. Apparently he's an extremely hard worker.

I'm not going to let myself get carried away. We're still going to see more losses than wins this year, but I'm encouraged that we are going in the right direction.

Monta Ellis had a really fugly game last night.

 

[DoDiGaG0]

I like the Omri/Marion compression.

However, he reminds me more of AK47

 

[bajaden]

And like I said. I in the 2nd quarter beno was playing with the 2nd unit and they all looked horrible. Beno looked much better in the 3rd quarter with the starters. Look at the +/-. The starters were all over +10 while the bench was all over -10. All the starters came back in at the 7 min mark in the 2nd quarter after the bench lost the 15 pt lead.

All I'm saying is you have to look at the context to say one is running the team better. Ya, it looks better when you have Martin and JT making baskets vs the bench missing everything.

I thought Greene did a decent job too. He was playing some D and didn't force any shots. He looked more comfortable out there. He also wasn't just standing in he corner. He was moving and setting screens.

Look, I'm not trying to nic pick you, but this is what you said, and I don't see anything about Beno looking horrible. Just that he came in and the team went on a run. Which implies that he was superior to Evans overall.

Sorry, but Evans doesn't run the offense better. He looked better in the first quarter with the starters when they were hitting shots. The second unit could barely hit the backboard. In the 3rd quarter Evans was pulled early and Beno came in and they went on a run.

Anyway, thats where I got confused, and made the comment from my friend that he wasn't as thrilled as you were with Beno. Sorry for the confusion..

 

[fnordius]

JT- He's a monster. Saw that a few people here said he was a garbage/hustle player this morning. Must be the most talented garbage player I've ever seen.

Nobody here has called him a "garbage player," ever. (I Googled it thoroughly, just to be sure.) I, along with another poster or two, have commented that he's an excellent "garbageman." I also referred to Justin Williams, whose image I used as my avatar here for maybe a year and a half, and whose jersey I sometimes wear, as a "garbageman."

Being a team's garbageman is a very important role. It means, basically, that you're staying close to the basket, taking the garbage shots that your teammates jack up, and converting them. Justin wasn't a terrifically skilled player with a massive basketball IQ, but, as I pointed out in my earlier post, he helped the team much more than his abilities might lead one to guess, just because he stayed in the paint, getting in the way of opposing bigs and "taking out the garbage" chucked by other players. Unless everybody on your team shoots 100%, you want a garbageman.

With the possible exception of shot blocking, JT is a much better player than Justin was, but he's still our garbageman, because it's a big's job, and Hawes seems too interested in shooting 3s to be around the paint enough. That's why JT has such good offensive rebounding stats. He's being a great garbageman, and we really needed one.

Hope that clarifies things.

 

[Bricklayer]

And just to clarify the clarify, I am hardly backing off of JT as garbageman because he had a big game against the Warriors of all teams. In fact a garbageman is precisely one of the sorts of players that kill the Warriors and their smallball. You CAN overwhelm them inside with nothing more than hustle and energy while they throw SFs and guards at you on defense.

And yet there is still a titanic gulk between that player and an Amare, Boozer, Duncan whoever type, who you can stop the game, walk the ball up, and throw it to them 1 on 1 vs. their man (in fact often 1 on 2 vs. the double team) and expect them to be able to score as a key factor in your set offense. Or better yet, to draw that double team and bend the other team's defense.

Garbage guys are key players as bigs. In fact ideally you'd want just about every big on your team who was not a star to be at least partly a garbage guy. Stay inside, stay active, hustle for boards and garbage hoops. But with very rare exceptions (Big Ben, Rodman et al) they are not stars themselves. And the ones who are stars are all league defenders -- the real key to whether Jason is going to be a very useful roleplaying big for a long time, or a guy with uses that you need to cover for in other ways (the David Lee track pretty much).

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

And just to clarify the clarify, I am hardly backing off of JT as garbageman because he had a big game against the Warriors of all teams. In fact a garbageman is precisely one of the sorts of players that kill the Warriors and their smallball. You CAN overwhelm them inside with nothing more than hustle and energy while they throw SFs and guards at you on defense.

And yet there is still a titanic gulk between that player and an Amare, Boozer, Duncan whoever type, who you can stop the game, walk the ball up, and throw it to them 1 on 1 vs. their man (in fact often 1 on 2 vs. the double team) and expect them to be able to score as a key factor in your set offense. Or better yet, to draw that double team and bend the other team's defense.

Garbage guys are key players as bigs. In fact ideally you'd want just about every big on your team who was not a star to be at least partly a garbage guy. Stay inside, stay active, hustle for boards and garbage hoops. But with very rare exceptions (Big Ben, Rodman et al) they are not stars themselves. And the ones who are stars are all league defenders -- the real key to whether Jason is going to be a very useful roleplaying big for a long time, or a guy with uses that you need to cover for in other ways (the David Lee track pretty much).

I seriously doubt the discreteness of NBA bigs by class to just the Duncan/Amare/Howard class and the garbage/hustle player class. There is an in between ground, and I can honestly see Jason fitting in there quite nicely. He does a lot of things you want from your hustle players (rebound, stay in the paint) but he's also got a great knack for drawing contact, has shown a much softer touch around the rim ever since the end of the Summer League (and even a nice post move or two), and he's pretty consistent with the spot up jumper. Not to mention he's a good passer for a big guy.

JT may never be a guy you can throw it to and expect him to score, but that doesn't mean he can't be a deadly off the ball weapon, especially with the chemistry he's developing with Tyreke. I'm talking about the Marion/David West type of player who play well off of teammates, who aren't consistent one on one scorers but still give opposing defenses headaches because they hit precisely in the chink of the defense's armor. Very valuable indeed.

Something like 17/11/3 isn't out of a prime JT's reach.