Martin: All-star material?
- Thread starter Fresno King
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Even if we assume that Kevin's a better ballplayer than Nash or Bryant (which is, I think, a stretch), he's not going to make it any time soon, because the All Star Team is like being elected class president. It's not the same as being skilled. If he were exactly as good as Kobe, we could expect Kobe to win, because LA has 10 times the voters that Sac does. And if you want to displace Yao Ming before he retires, you'd better be Wilt Chamberlain. Well... or another Chinese guy!
Give him a few years.
Give him a few years.
Well, I didn't ask if I sounded like a homer. I think from a stand-alone perspective, Kmart is better than Deron Williams. It sounds like its hard for you to make the connection because Deron is a star PG and Kevin is a star SG. Deron may shoot 52%, but he is turnover prone. He has a 2.71 assist-TO average which isn't very good when you are talking about a star point guard. After watching him, he doesn't like to push the pace that much, and when things get stagnant he likes to force things. His 2.71 assist-TO ratio ranks him with guys like Raymond Felton, Jamaal Tinsley, Kirk Hinrich, and Rafer Alston all of which Kevin is better than. So you can't necessarily say Deron is a better basketball player than those guys. He is only a better shooter.
It's not Kevin's job to hand out assists, its his job to score, and he is probably one of the top ten guys in the league at getting buckets in a hurry. Its Deron's job to take care of the ball, and at over 3 turnovers a game, he isn't doing the greatest of jobs. His assist average is stellar, but put him on a team like Seattle and no one is discussing him. Put Kevin on a team like Seattle, and his averages will rise and rise.
In terms of team success, sure Deron has accomplished more. In terms of game control, Deron has an edge. In terms of a defenses focus, Kmart takes the cake, and I think there lies the slightest sliver that separates the two.
It's not Kevin's job to hand out assists, its his job to score, and he is probably one of the top ten guys in the league at getting buckets in a hurry. Its Deron's job to take care of the ball, and at over 3 turnovers a game, he isn't doing the greatest of jobs. His assist average is stellar, but put him on a team like Seattle and no one is discussing him. Put Kevin on a team like Seattle, and his averages will rise and rise.
In terms of team success, sure Deron has accomplished more. In terms of game control, Deron has an edge. In terms of a defenses focus, Kmart takes the cake, and I think there lies the slightest sliver that separates the two.
Glad someone else said this because I totally agree with you.. We are talking better player. Like I said above that PGs mean more to the team than a SG. Does not make K-Mart any lesser of a player. Skill wise he is as good as Williams. It's just that Williams is in the position (Either PG, or big man PF/C which mean the most to teams) that matters most on his team. How bad would the Kings be if we didn't get Beno? But is Beno All-Star caliber? Nope, but he matters to this team more than K-Mart because he runs the offense. Who is the better player though? K-Mart by far. That's what I am talking about, and not to put words in Venoms mouth, I think that's what he is getting at too.
Believe me, if K-Mart was as skilled as he is now, and was a 6'4 PG rather than a 6'7 SG he would be names with a lot of elite PGs in the league. Rather than putting him up against all the point guards because of how the All-Star voting is let's put him against all the other SGs in the west. K-Mart is on the team to score, and he is one of the best in the league at that. That's what SGs do.
You and I are pretty much on the same page. Someone a while back said Brandon Roy is for sure better than Kevin. That simply isn't true. He is a key cog in a team is over-achieving, but Kevin is quicker, smarter, and a better shooter. And Rudy Gay is nice, but you can't compare what he is doing with what Kevin is doing. Rudy Gay is doing what JR Smith would be doing if he were on the Grizzlies.
As far as the Deron thing goes, I've said my piece. I will say though if Kevin did shrink, he'd play a lot like Devin Harris or TJ Ford. That is, faster than everybody else in the gym.
As far as the Deron thing goes, I've said my piece. I will say though if Kevin did shrink, he'd play a lot like Devin Harris or TJ Ford. That is, faster than everybody else in the gym.
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Ok. How about I say it is more then defense then. I am a Kings fan just like you, but I see 10 other guards more deserving, injury or no. At this moment he is a very good scorer. That, for me, doesnt equate to an all-star. I believe that he will work his way there one day, but it is a bit premature now.
This subject comes up every year, either about Bibby or BJax when he had that killer year in 2002-03. Although I WISH the All Star game were about the best players (like it was back in the day), it's vote for your FAVORITE player, not the best player.
I don't know how many people out there list K Mart as one of their favorite players. Maybe in a few years.
I don't know how many people out there list K Mart as one of their favorite players. Maybe in a few years.
I don't think being an All-Star has anything to do with defense. Steve Nash has been how many years in a row now? Same thing with Dirk.
That having been said, I voted yes to the question, because I do think that Kevin is all-star material. However, if the question were "will he be an All-Star anytime soon", my answer would be no. As has been detailed so far in this thread already, there are too many good guards, some young, some established, in the Western conference, that are better/get more attention than Kevin.
So while 25ppg on 46% shooting is, in my opinion, all-star worthy, I don't think he'll be voted in by the fans unless he adds 6+ rebounds, 5+ assists and 2+ steals to that stat line, because of the competition at his position in the Western conference.
That having been said, I voted yes to the question, because I do think that Kevin is all-star material. However, if the question were "will he be an All-Star anytime soon", my answer would be no. As has been detailed so far in this thread already, there are too many good guards, some young, some established, in the Western conference, that are better/get more attention than Kevin.
So while 25ppg on 46% shooting is, in my opinion, all-star worthy, I don't think he'll be voted in by the fans unless he adds 6+ rebounds, 5+ assists and 2+ steals to that stat line, because of the competition at his position in the Western conference.
Those are the very things he does not do. Those are the things that seperate the perennial All Stars from guys who are just scorers (and that is a perjorative -- scoring minus the rest is for the tourists).
Kevin has a different mix, but he is basically the same player as Glen Rice, Michael Redd, Rashard Lewis, Peja, Corey Maggette, Richard Jefferson etc. The one dimensional guy who's game is centered around his own scoring, nothing else. Most of those guys have all made All Star games, Kevin should too one day. But they are borderline types. All flash types, but not straw that stir the drink types. There is a gulf between what they contribute to their teams, and what the 6reb 5ast etc. guys contribute to their teams. Their participation in an All Star game or lack thereof is highly dependent on their team's fortunes, whereas the guys who fill up the stat sheet and control the game can become perennial guys almost regardless of record.
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That I rather doubt, and just so I can explain, its not particularly because of a question of Kevin's overall talent, but rather of how his game is structured. One of Kevin's biggest weaknesses is ballhandling. One of his biggest strengths is off the ball movement. Neither suggests a player who is going to be able, or willing to basically run the team for any significant stretches. He is a finisher, not a creater. I remember we had the same discussion about Peja once, and it was the same problem. Kevin is obviously much much quicker than Peja, which would open the door. But his game and strengths are no more suited to consistently catching the ball on the wing in the face of pressure and setting up teammates than were Peja's. Not so much a lack of willingness as it flying in the face of the structure of his game.
In any case, if he never does, nobody should be terribly disappointed. Very few can do that stuff. It will be no particular failure on his part if he does not.
Yea i would have to agree with most of those points.
He has shown good flashes of passing every now and then & ballhandling is the type of thing that anyone can improve. IMO its either you have the vision on the court or you dont and kevin does have the vision. The question is does he really have the determination to become that complete player?
I wouldnt neccesarilly be dissapointed if Martin never averages 5 + asts because that may throw off his offensive game, I like him in the mold of Scorer/Slasher with 2 or 3 asts (the right passes) on the side.
I would rather him work on his defense then work on his passing at this point in his career.
He has shown good flashes of passing every now and then & ballhandling is the type of thing that anyone can improve. IMO its either you have the vision on the court or you dont and kevin does have the vision. The question is does he really have the determination to become that complete player?
I wouldnt neccesarilly be dissapointed if Martin never averages 5 + asts because that may throw off his offensive game, I like him in the mold of Scorer/Slasher with 2 or 3 asts (the right passes) on the side.
I would rather him work on his defense then work on his passing at this point in his career.
Reggie Miller averaged 18, 3, and 3 and made 5 all star games. Now, we may have to settle for Rip Hamilton, but his #'s are almost the same, too. Kevin just needs to get the passing up a little bit, and he can be right there. Obviously, Miller's greatness came from his leadership and clutch play, but then again, what did we see from Kevin last night?
Please don't try to compare what Keivn last night to the team on the 14 game losing streak to what Reggie Miller did over his career.
Pretty please.
As an aside, Reggie was horribly overrated...until crunchtime. And Reggie Miller himself, Hall of Famer, was only a sporadic All Star. He was never an annual guy. Why? Because he was just a scorer (and even so when he was young and scoring 24 he was averaging 3-4 assists a year, so less one dimensional than Kevin). His All Star fortunes were dependent on his team being good (and the resulting chance for playoff heroics), and then on the luck of who was having a good year on other teams. Rip Hamilton is the same way -- if Rip plays on Milwaulkee there is no way he's ever sniffed an All Star game.
Even if he was All-Star material, I would hope that he would not get the honor, at least for several more years. I want him to play with an edge, a chip on his shoulder, and something to prove night in and night out. You give him an All-Star slot now and he'd rest on his laurels for a year, and maybe longer. In my opinion, the only thing stopping him from being great is his mental/emotional outlook. Once he finally has the eye of the tiger, then there won't even be an argument about whether he should be an All-Star or not - it will be a given.
I actually don't think we're that far apart here. Kevin's only had one playoff series so far (and that was coming off the bench) and even then he had a clutch play. Sure, he's no Reggie, but more and more instances like last night and you can start to hope.
And of course it all comes down to being on a good enough team. Since when is that ever in dispute?
And of course it all comes down to being on a good enough team. Since when is that ever in dispute?
Well, if you are a true annual All Star, a truly great player, it almost does not matter. KG is there every year. So is Kobe. Wade will go this year despite the record. Its highly unlikely Kevin will ever be that level player. So his All Star fate we always be determined by his team's fortunes. Until we win, he is just a good numbers on bad team guy. Its a different tier.
For the same reasons Brick detailed in his post, I doubt the assists ever get that high, and they don't necessarily need to be. Kevin Martin is not LeBron James or Jason Kidd; his strength is getting himself points, not setting his teammates up.
I would actually expect his rebounding to be higher than his assists for most of his career, since he's an athletic guy. And he has some grittiness to his game, where he'll actually put forth the effort and battle down there. He's not soft, but he's never going to be a 7 rebound/game player. I expect him to be a 4-5/game type player, as he matures and gets stronger.
I would actually expect his rebounding to be higher than his assists for most of his career, since he's an athletic guy. And he has some grittiness to his game, where he'll actually put forth the effort and battle down there. He's not soft, but he's never going to be a 7 rebound/game player. I expect him to be a 4-5/game type player, as he matures and gets stronger.