Kobe
- Thread starter Bricklayer
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Go and read all your posts in this thread, importantly the initial ones, plus read Geoff's post in this thread on page 6 closely. Regarding Jordan and Kobe , read my posts again.
I did argue with you about Kobe > Jordan to show how your arguments about belittling Kobe could be easily said about any player.
Interestingly Geoff asked a very good question, who do you think was responsible for leading the kings past the first round in 2001. Chris Webber, Vlade Divac ? So if it was Chris, is Chris better than Kobe.
But I like your energy though, you are up against pretty much everyone on this board, even hard code laker haters are not taking your line, but you continue to fight for it. What I would I would have liked more is taking your line and sticking with it and not try to wiggle out of it.
Afterall its about opinion and perception in a team game, where maybe you throw in a little stat to prove your point but those stats dont mean a thing. I can easily argue that Pippen was the reason why the bulls won all those rings and I can show stats to show that pipp > mj.
Another question is if you think he is top 20, is he 20 or 19 or 8, what is the ranking. Would love to hear from you the other players whom you have above him.
I did argue with you about Kobe > Jordan to show how your arguments about belittling Kobe could be easily said about any player.
Interestingly Geoff asked a very good question, who do you think was responsible for leading the kings past the first round in 2001. Chris Webber, Vlade Divac ? So if it was Chris, is Chris better than Kobe.
But I like your energy though, you are up against pretty much everyone on this board, even hard code laker haters are not taking your line, but you continue to fight for it. What I would I would have liked more is taking your line and sticking with it and not try to wiggle out of it.
Afterall its about opinion and perception in a team game, where maybe you throw in a little stat to prove your point but those stats dont mean a thing. I can easily argue that Pippen was the reason why the bulls won all those rings and I can show stats to show that pipp > mj.
Another question is if you think he is top 20, is he 20 or 19 or 8, what is the ranking. Would love to hear from you the other players whom you have above him.
Wilt, Russel, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Oscar, MJ are the no brainers.
Hakeem, Admiral, Shaq, Baylor, West, Havlicek, Mailman, Barkley, Zeke, KG, Dr. J, Moses, Barry, Duncan, and a handful of others up there in that range too.
Kobe's legacy, or lack thereof, is going to center around whether he can ever prove himself a winner. And no, playing second fiddle to the most dominant force in the game at the time doesn' answer that question. Especially since he largely chased said dominent force out of town and hasn't made it out of the first round since. The talent is unmistakable, but talent alone is not enough.
Hakeem, Admiral, Shaq, Baylor, West, Havlicek, Mailman, Barkley, Zeke, KG, Dr. J, Moses, Barry, Duncan, and a handful of others up there in that range too.
Kobe's legacy, or lack thereof, is going to center around whether he can ever prove himself a winner. And no, playing second fiddle to the most dominant force in the game at the time doesn' answer that question. Especially since he largely chased said dominent force out of town and hasn't made it out of the first round since. The talent is unmistakable, but talent alone is not enough.
Two things:
Kobe doesn't save energy. It almost seems like he doesn't have to. He never tires, never takes a night off. Which makes him a superior player to Tracy McGrady. This takes me back to this game, 3/15/2004, when Kobe outplayed McGrady down the stretch and proved to me - once and for all - that he's the better player. One of the most impressive performances I've ever seen from any player.
Secondly, I don't understand how the Lakers roster, without Kobe, is better than the Rockets roster without McGrady (and Yao, for most of the season). Remember, most of the first two months of the season saw the Lakers winning 60% of their games, iirc. It wasn't until they got hit with a rash of injuries that their record fell off and their play plummeted. I just don't see the Lakers as having a more talented roster than the Rockets. Houston has smarter players, a more developed roster with more chemistry, and more playoff experience.
Kobe doesn't save energy. It almost seems like he doesn't have to. He never tires, never takes a night off. Which makes him a superior player to Tracy McGrady. This takes me back to this game, 3/15/2004, when Kobe outplayed McGrady down the stretch and proved to me - once and for all - that he's the better player. One of the most impressive performances I've ever seen from any player.
Secondly, I don't understand how the Lakers roster, without Kobe, is better than the Rockets roster without McGrady (and Yao, for most of the season). Remember, most of the first two months of the season saw the Lakers winning 60% of their games, iirc. It wasn't until they got hit with a rash of injuries that their record fell off and their play plummeted. I just don't see the Lakers as having a more talented roster than the Rockets. Houston has smarter players, a more developed roster with more chemistry, and more playoff experience.
not to mention that in a game 7 kobe only had 2 points in the second half... TWO!!! i dont care how u disect it or what u try to come up with to validate such a pathetic performance no great player or legend especially jordan magic or bird ever had that kind of performance when their teams needed them most... kobes just a great scorer who benifited from playing with the most dominant big man ever, won his 3 rings, and now is just another great scorer to continuously get bounced out of the playoffs al a dominique wilkins.
Do you also know of the rule changes that have happened between then and now, it was a lot easier then to dominate as a individual atleast during MJs days and teams can run plays to utilize individual brilliance. You cannot double a player without the ball or even atleast have people shadowing a person and it was called illegal defense.
Remember the 5th game between lakers and sacto in 2000, the lakers ran plays in the beginning to highlight how the kings were sending webb closer to shaq to double him by leaving his man even before shaq got the ball, two illegal defense calls and the game was never close after that.
After the rule change, you can see the dip in shaqs output, he is also hampered by his own likeness for crispy cremes but the change in rules helped other teams with defensive strategies that is very helpful if shaqs team doesnt have multiple three point threats.
Lakers in that game were pathetic in the second half and I personally thought that kobe was trying to send a message by not taking any shot, but after watching the game again I dont blame him that much cos the suns were sending three players at him every time he touched the ball. The other laker scrubs like smush couldnt hit any shot and looked like a deer in front a headlight. Combine that with the suns scoring spree where when they are hot they can just chase away a team with their scoring got their offense going and it wasnt a close game in the second at all. In fact I think the lakers got outcoached to some extent as well where the suns defense picked the lakers a lot and knew where the ball was going even before it was there and the lakers didnt adjust even after halftime.
Phil came out and said that it was his game plan and that he didnt want kobe to force things or didnt run plays specifically for kobe like he is doing now. You can chose to not believe PJ but thats upto you.
Remember the 5th game between lakers and sacto in 2000, the lakers ran plays in the beginning to highlight how the kings were sending webb closer to shaq to double him by leaving his man even before shaq got the ball, two illegal defense calls and the game was never close after that.
After the rule change, you can see the dip in shaqs output, he is also hampered by his own likeness for crispy cremes but the change in rules helped other teams with defensive strategies that is very helpful if shaqs team doesnt have multiple three point threats.
Lakers in that game were pathetic in the second half and I personally thought that kobe was trying to send a message by not taking any shot, but after watching the game again I dont blame him that much cos the suns were sending three players at him every time he touched the ball. The other laker scrubs like smush couldnt hit any shot and looked like a deer in front a headlight. Combine that with the suns scoring spree where when they are hot they can just chase away a team with their scoring got their offense going and it wasnt a close game in the second at all. In fact I think the lakers got outcoached to some extent as well where the suns defense picked the lakers a lot and knew where the ball was going even before it was there and the lakers didnt adjust even after halftime.
Phil came out and said that it was his game plan and that he didnt want kobe to force things or didnt run plays specifically for kobe like he is doing now. You can chose to not believe PJ but thats upto you.
what are you talking about??? rules nowadays????? huh???? how about that in MJ's days there was NO handcheck rule where as now u cant even be touched by the palm of the hand without a foul being called.... if jordan played with todays rules he'd average 40+ a game but knowing jordan he would still get rings on top of that, not scoring titles and first round busts like kobe.
LOL, have you heard of Jordans rules, no one was allowed to touch MJ, rule or not. How many fouls are they calling nowadays for defenders riding on kobe on defense, he doesnt get as many calls as bronze or dwhistle.
If Jordan played in todays game for the lakers he will have similar first round exits just like kobe has had, even if you discount the fact that kobe was a very big reason why the lakers won 3 rings. I find that funny you discount those three rings but I will go along with that.
MJ did not win rings until he got a solid team with pippen playing alongside him and a group of veterans/ role players / defenders. He was a first round bust and in fact sweeping bust for a long time before he got anywhere.
Thats the problem, on one hand you will all discount the fact the kobe was equally important in the title run for the lakers as shaq was. But when it comes to comparison with MJ you would go back to the 11 year veteran argument.
Jordan needed a team with which he had to mesh with and it took the bulls 6 years to get that team together and play the season without major injuries, until then his team was swept or almost swept in the playoffs.
I dont doubt his greatness but I dont hold him at a pedestal like many of you do either, I think he was nba'a manufacturing of a mega mega superstar, whereas he was definitely a mega superstar. Some of his MVP trophies many people including me have a problem with, for instance the mvp trophy for 88 where the team just cracked 50 wins and lost to the pistons in 5 games (4-1). It was not like his team was filled with rookies or he had made the rookies superstars (some of the criteria used nowadays for MVPs ). Pippen didnt make it to an all star game till 89. It will be like the lakers getting to the 50 win mark this year and kobe getting the MVP, i think you would have a problem with that.
At the same time I know that there were bogus mvp trophies given to people at the wrong time as well, Malone deserved one but not for the year he got it. Probably that year it was MJs due, it kinda evens out maybe, but thats up in the air for debate.
Jordan needed a team with which he had to mesh with and it took the bulls 6 years to get that team together and play the season without major injuries, until then his team was swept or almost swept in the playoffs.
I dont doubt his greatness but I dont hold him at a pedestal like many of you do either, I think he was nba'a manufacturing of a mega mega superstar, whereas he was definitely a mega superstar. Some of his MVP trophies many people including me have a problem with, for instance the mvp trophy for 88 where the team just cracked 50 wins and lost to the pistons in 5 games (4-1). It was not like his team was filled with rookies or he had made the rookies superstars (some of the criteria used nowadays for MVPs ). Pippen didnt make it to an all star game till 89. It will be like the lakers getting to the 50 win mark this year and kobe getting the MVP, i think you would have a problem with that.
At the same time I know that there were bogus mvp trophies given to people at the wrong time as well, Malone deserved one but not for the year he got it. Probably that year it was MJs due, it kinda evens out maybe, but thats up in the air for debate.
Well, for arguably the best player ever, I don't think it's absurd that he has 5 MVP awards. And don't forget that the MVP is voted on before the playoffs begin, so getting swept in the first round has no bearing on whether you're the MVP or not. But, as you said, it all evens out. Jordan should have definitely won in '97, but they had mercy on the rest of the League and gave it to Malone, since Jordan won in '96.
Page 2 garbage...Kobe is better then MJ
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070326&sportCat=nba
Putting Kobe in perspective
By Jemele Hill
Page 2
Kobe Bryant is better than Michael Jordan.
Not more successful.
Hasn't had a bigger economic impact.
Hasn't won more MVPs.
Hasn't won more titles.
But he's a better player.
Kobe can do everything Michael did, and even a few things Michael couldn't do.
Kobe is just as good a defender. His killer instinct is just as pronounced. He can shoot, finish and explode. And just like Jordan, the more he's pissed off, the more unstoppable he is.
At the very least, Kobe's scoring spree over the last week should put to rest any lingering doubts that he's the best player in the NBA. Yes, better than Steve Nash, who is the best point guard, but not the lethal force that Kobe is. Yes, better than Dwyane Wade, who is certainly closer to the Kobe-Jordan level than LeBron James, but D-Wade's game is not as polished as Kobe's.
Kobe's streak of four straight 50-points-plus games is something none of those players can do, and it's something that hasn't been done since Wilt Chamberlain, who had an NBA-record seven straight 50-point games. Truthfully, Kobe should have tacked another 50 on Golden State on Sunday night.
Of course, the idea that Kobe is better than Jordan -- or even the best player in this league -- is as repugnant to some folks as a rectal exam. Even though Kobe has proven himself under pressure countless times, he gets the A-Rod treatment.
Kobe can't please anyone. And it doesn't help that most people suffer from revisionist history when it comes to Jordan, forgetting that he was just as poor a teammate and a ball hog and that he ran off coach Doug Collins like Kobe ran off Phil Jackson the first time.
In fact, you could argue that Jordan was even worse. Far as we know, Kobe hasn't jacked up any of his teammates the way Jordan punched out Steve Kerr and Will Perdue at practice.
Kobe will never be forgiven for Shaq's departure, but you're delusional if you think Jordan wouldn't have had any ego issues playing alongside a player with Shaq's star power.
The best-player argument shouldn't be determined by personal dislike. But if you want to take it there, fine. Jordan was hardly the ideal husband, but only the tabloids were brave enough to venture into his personal life. And what about those gambling issues? If Jordan's life had been covered like Kobe's, we would have an entirely different opinion of His Airness.
Besides a different level of media scrutiny, there was definitely a difference in the level of competition during Jordan's heyday compared to now.
Yesterday's NBA player certainly was more fundamentally sound, but there's no question that today's player is bigger, stronger and faster. When Jordan played, he was a singular force that could not be equaled. Jordan was guarded by the likes of John Starks and Joe Dumars, who were fine players but weren't nearly as skilled or physically imposing as LeBron, D-Wade, Tracy McGrady or even Vince Carter.
The NBA is tougher now.
Kobe, like Michael, is surrounded with mediocre to below-average talent, and Phoenix, Dallas and San Antonio are all better than the Utah, Portland and the Charles Barkley-led Phoenix team that Michael met in the NBA Finals.
Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson and Patrick Ewing will be among the best centers ever, but none of them affected the league the way Shaq and Tim Duncan have. There are two two-time MVPs in Kobe's own conference (Duncan, Nash), which is a problem Jordan never faced during his championship runs. Seven-footers weren't launching 3s back then. Magic Johnson and the Lakers were on a downward spiral, and the Pistons were on their last legs. It was Michael and everyone else. That's not the case for Kobe.
The shame of it is that Kobe might finish his career without a MVP, even though his ability can be compared only to that of Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain. All this time we've been looking for a player who is better than Jordan, but most of us can't get beyond whether we like or dislike Kobe as a person to recognize his contributions to the game.
Ultimately the MVP award will go to either Nash or Dirk Nowitzki, who are deserving this season, but neither are as good as Kobe. Dallas and Phoenix are strong enough to make the playoffs without their stars. The Lakers, however, are a lottery team without Kobe.
Now that's a valuable player.
Jemele Hill, a Page 2 columnist and writer for ESPN The Magazine, can be reached at jemeleespn@gmail.com.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070326&sportCat=nba
Putting Kobe in perspective
By Jemele Hill
Page 2
Kobe Bryant is better than Michael Jordan.
Not more successful.
Hasn't had a bigger economic impact.
Hasn't won more MVPs.
Hasn't won more titles.
But he's a better player.
Kobe can do everything Michael did, and even a few things Michael couldn't do.
Kobe is just as good a defender. His killer instinct is just as pronounced. He can shoot, finish and explode. And just like Jordan, the more he's pissed off, the more unstoppable he is.
At the very least, Kobe's scoring spree over the last week should put to rest any lingering doubts that he's the best player in the NBA. Yes, better than Steve Nash, who is the best point guard, but not the lethal force that Kobe is. Yes, better than Dwyane Wade, who is certainly closer to the Kobe-Jordan level than LeBron James, but D-Wade's game is not as polished as Kobe's.
Kobe's streak of four straight 50-points-plus games is something none of those players can do, and it's something that hasn't been done since Wilt Chamberlain, who had an NBA-record seven straight 50-point games. Truthfully, Kobe should have tacked another 50 on Golden State on Sunday night.
Of course, the idea that Kobe is better than Jordan -- or even the best player in this league -- is as repugnant to some folks as a rectal exam. Even though Kobe has proven himself under pressure countless times, he gets the A-Rod treatment.
Kobe can't please anyone. And it doesn't help that most people suffer from revisionist history when it comes to Jordan, forgetting that he was just as poor a teammate and a ball hog and that he ran off coach Doug Collins like Kobe ran off Phil Jackson the first time.
In fact, you could argue that Jordan was even worse. Far as we know, Kobe hasn't jacked up any of his teammates the way Jordan punched out Steve Kerr and Will Perdue at practice.
Kobe will never be forgiven for Shaq's departure, but you're delusional if you think Jordan wouldn't have had any ego issues playing alongside a player with Shaq's star power.
The best-player argument shouldn't be determined by personal dislike. But if you want to take it there, fine. Jordan was hardly the ideal husband, but only the tabloids were brave enough to venture into his personal life. And what about those gambling issues? If Jordan's life had been covered like Kobe's, we would have an entirely different opinion of His Airness.
Besides a different level of media scrutiny, there was definitely a difference in the level of competition during Jordan's heyday compared to now.
Yesterday's NBA player certainly was more fundamentally sound, but there's no question that today's player is bigger, stronger and faster. When Jordan played, he was a singular force that could not be equaled. Jordan was guarded by the likes of John Starks and Joe Dumars, who were fine players but weren't nearly as skilled or physically imposing as LeBron, D-Wade, Tracy McGrady or even Vince Carter.
The NBA is tougher now.
Kobe, like Michael, is surrounded with mediocre to below-average talent, and Phoenix, Dallas and San Antonio are all better than the Utah, Portland and the Charles Barkley-led Phoenix team that Michael met in the NBA Finals.
Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson and Patrick Ewing will be among the best centers ever, but none of them affected the league the way Shaq and Tim Duncan have. There are two two-time MVPs in Kobe's own conference (Duncan, Nash), which is a problem Jordan never faced during his championship runs. Seven-footers weren't launching 3s back then. Magic Johnson and the Lakers were on a downward spiral, and the Pistons were on their last legs. It was Michael and everyone else. That's not the case for Kobe.
The shame of it is that Kobe might finish his career without a MVP, even though his ability can be compared only to that of Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain. All this time we've been looking for a player who is better than Jordan, but most of us can't get beyond whether we like or dislike Kobe as a person to recognize his contributions to the game.
Ultimately the MVP award will go to either Nash or Dirk Nowitzki, who are deserving this season, but neither are as good as Kobe. Dallas and Phoenix are strong enough to make the playoffs without their stars. The Lakers, however, are a lottery team without Kobe.
Now that's a valuable player.
Jemele Hill, a Page 2 columnist and writer for ESPN The Magazine, can be reached at jemeleespn@gmail.com.
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worst article ive EVER read in my life... who the f*** wrote that??? i dont wanna click on it again just to find out cause that article was digusting...... he says that phoenix and dallas and whatnot are better than utah and phoenix in the 90's??? what the hell is he/she smoking?? omg i feel like barfing... and he says centers back then werent shhoting 3's like nowadays??? no man, the robinsons and olojawons and ewings of the 90's just dominated the interior of the game... how is having your center shooting 3's a positive trait??? yeah brad miller shooting threes has really made the suns and heat and mavs and spurs pee their pants in their sleep, huh? what an idiot... i cant believe i read that s***
and people always forget that in the last, uh i dont know million years, the bulls were the only team to win a championship playing their game outside-in not inside-out... the only exception could be the pistons of the 80's but they had plenty of bangers inside
and people always forget that in the last, uh i dont know million years, the bulls were the only team to win a championship playing their game outside-in not inside-out... the only exception could be the pistons of the 80's but they had plenty of bangers inside
This is an aside from the article, but have any of you read "The Jordan Rules"? Some of the info on MJ sounds eerily similar to Kobe. Compared to Kobe, MJ got one helluva gigantic historical pass. He's every bit as sour an individual as you perceive Bryant.
Funniest part so far was MJ's nickname for Krause: "Crumbs" -- because he always walked up w/ crumbs on his shirt from whatever he was eating. From there Mike lead daily fat joke roasts whenever Krause walked by.
Funniest part so far was MJ's nickname for Krause: "Crumbs" -- because he always walked up w/ crumbs on his shirt from whatever he was eating. From there Mike lead daily fat joke roasts whenever Krause walked by.
Oh hardly. That's just the Lakers homerness coming out.
One of the great separating features with Jordan was exactly his ability to hang out with the guys in the locker room. He was intensely competitive, he could be an *******, but at the end of the day he was also the guy making the jokes, the guy setting up poker nights, the guy leading expeditions to the clubs etc. He was never aloof from his own teammates. He may not in any true since have been nice, but he right with them as the alpha dog. Doing what they did, intimately involved in leading them. Until the Washington years, there was never a huge wall between MJs locker and the rest of the team's.
Kobe's sour little puss is actually much closer to Pippen's personality than Jordan's. And at a certian point that is just what it is. Some people have a knack for leading and interracting with people. Some people do not.
One of the great separating features with Jordan was exactly his ability to hang out with the guys in the locker room. He was intensely competitive, he could be an *******, but at the end of the day he was also the guy making the jokes, the guy setting up poker nights, the guy leading expeditions to the clubs etc. He was never aloof from his own teammates. He may not in any true since have been nice, but he right with them as the alpha dog. Doing what they did, intimately involved in leading them. Until the Washington years, there was never a huge wall between MJs locker and the rest of the team's.
Kobe's sour little puss is actually much closer to Pippen's personality than Jordan's. And at a certian point that is just what it is. Some people have a knack for leading and interracting with people. Some people do not.
From today's Bee (the first part of the article is posted in the Kings Rap forum)
http://www.sacbee.com/351/story/144580.html
Marty Mac's World: Why Kobe's the MVP
By Martin McNeal - Bee Columnist
Last Updated 6:26 am PDT Tuesday, March 27, 2007
Surely after watching all of his talents, most Kings fans recognize how dominant Los Angeles Lakers guard Kobe Bryant has been and can be. The dude is the best thing going in the NBA, and hopefully, those four consecutive 50-pointers and more last week will serve as a reminder to all.
Bryant has displayed a few of his flaws as the years have passed. And who among us hasn't? But when it comes to doing what he wants when he wants on a basketball court, regardless of who else is on the floor with him, Bryant is at the top.
And like Phoenix's Amare Stoudemire, Bryant has bounced back from offseason knee surgery to dominate. Stoudamire's surgery was far more serious, but both players struggled early in the season to show the explosiveness that helps make them special.
It's easy to look at the records of Dallas and Dirk Nowitzki and Phoenix and Steve Nash and say they should be the clear-cut candidates for the MVP award. Consider the long, injury-caused absences of Lamar Odom and Luke Walton this season, then think and how much better the Lakers' record might be.
Either Nowitzki or Nash likely will be the MVP, but which player would you take in a lottery for a game this season or any of the next five?
http://www.sacbee.com/351/story/144580.html
Marty Mac's World: Why Kobe's the MVP
By Martin McNeal - Bee Columnist
Last Updated 6:26 am PDT Tuesday, March 27, 2007
Surely after watching all of his talents, most Kings fans recognize how dominant Los Angeles Lakers guard Kobe Bryant has been and can be. The dude is the best thing going in the NBA, and hopefully, those four consecutive 50-pointers and more last week will serve as a reminder to all.
Bryant has displayed a few of his flaws as the years have passed. And who among us hasn't? But when it comes to doing what he wants when he wants on a basketball court, regardless of who else is on the floor with him, Bryant is at the top.
And like Phoenix's Amare Stoudemire, Bryant has bounced back from offseason knee surgery to dominate. Stoudamire's surgery was far more serious, but both players struggled early in the season to show the explosiveness that helps make them special.
It's easy to look at the records of Dallas and Dirk Nowitzki and Phoenix and Steve Nash and say they should be the clear-cut candidates for the MVP award. Consider the long, injury-caused absences of Lamar Odom and Luke Walton this season, then think and how much better the Lakers' record might be.
Either Nowitzki or Nash likely will be the MVP, but which player would you take in a lottery for a game this season or any of the next five?
Again Marty's clumsiness as a columnist. Making an amateur error and confusing BP (Best Player) with MVP. He should know better after all those years on the beat.
The MVP has always been handed out to the player making the most difference on ana elite team. I worded it that way on purpose, because you pretty much have to fulfill all of that. Its not given to the best player int he league. Its not even necessarily given to the best player on an elite team. Its given to the player on an elite team (let's say Top 5 team) most responsible for hem being where they are.
And whatever, you can say well it should be a different standard, but that's the standard it has always been. And so no, Kobe will once again not be MVP. He needs to get the Lakers up around 55+ wins in order for that to happen, same as all the previous MVPs.
The MVP has always been handed out to the player making the most difference on ana elite team. I worded it that way on purpose, because you pretty much have to fulfill all of that. Its not given to the best player int he league. Its not even necessarily given to the best player on an elite team. Its given to the player on an elite team (let's say Top 5 team) most responsible for hem being where they are.
And whatever, you can say well it should be a different standard, but that's the standard it has always been. And so no, Kobe will once again not be MVP. He needs to get the Lakers up around 55+ wins in order for that to happen, same as all the previous MVPs.
We're going to agree to disagree here. I wouldn't put "called Kwame a F. F. or a F. B." every day on Kobe's resume. If Kobe did half the things attributed to MJ in this book, he'd be lambasted. As a result, Jordan got a pass. And I don't consider that book to be full of fibs. I've seen Steve Kerr discuss they day they kicked MJ out of practice for punching him in a snoot over calls not going his way. I've seen Bill Cartwright discuss how MJ was riding him so hard that he threatened to fight him.
Kobe's degree of aloofness can't really be measured outside of what he and his teammates admit. They have admitted to doing things together -- however that's supposed to translate out on the court. I don't think aloofness is a differentiation between good leader and bad leader. If there was a differentiation, it's that MJ's lesser teammates were afraid of him. Kobe's aren't (and that point is clear). MJ had to build up that rep. Collins couldn't handle him in TWO separate stints, which shows how he tests people just like Kobe, if not worse. MJ and Kobe are MUCH more similar than Pippen and Kobe. Pippen has a TANGIBLE track record of being a poor leader. Kobe doesn't have much other than the supposition that he and not Jerry Buss "ran Shaq out".
Kobe's degree of aloofness can't really be measured outside of what he and his teammates admit. They have admitted to doing things together -- however that's supposed to translate out on the court. I don't think aloofness is a differentiation between good leader and bad leader. If there was a differentiation, it's that MJ's lesser teammates were afraid of him. Kobe's aren't (and that point is clear). MJ had to build up that rep. Collins couldn't handle him in TWO separate stints, which shows how he tests people just like Kobe, if not worse. MJ and Kobe are MUCH more similar than Pippen and Kobe. Pippen has a TANGIBLE track record of being a poor leader. Kobe doesn't have much other than the supposition that he and not Jerry Buss "ran Shaq out".
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