Yahoo rumor: Wolves shopping Jefferson

[Sptsjunkie]

Gasol is no longer just an average defender. He used to be but he improved his defense last season and the Lakers won it all. So Gasol is another example that makes my point. You need defense back there. And there is no comparison between Gasol and Al defensively. Even on Gasol's worst day he's still a much better defender than Big Al will ever hope to be.

So then your premise is that players can improve defensively. Gasol is a better team defender, but if you were looking to trade for a defensive big you would not trade for Gasol.

Frankly I agree with Bajaden, get Jefferson and then pair him with a big who plays D.

Or just get the team as a whole playing good team defence. As I've said before, neither Webber or Vlade were great defenders, yet our 2002 team in particular was one of the top 2-4 defensive teams in the league.

 

[beb0p]

This whole premise is off. So we don't trade for Jefferson because he can't guard the rim? What's Martin guarding? Its simple, Jefferson makes our team better now AND gives us a better trade chip if that's what we decide. The guy was traded for Kevin Garnett two years ago.

SAR is a good example, never won anything, but he was traded for Pau Gasol. Score and rebound PF's are worth more than a scoring SG.

As for the Lakers so-called "patience", this is the team that traded Caron Butler for Kwame Brown less a year after the Shaq trade.

Patience would indicate the Lakers and Detroit horded assets and sprung only when the moment was right. In reality they both gave away nothing and just sprung on opportnities when two poorly run franchises were in a position of bad leverage. Having Al Jefferson on the books instead of Kevin Martin when a golden moment like that arrives can only help our chances.

So you want Jefferson because he's a good trade chip? Al Jefferson is not the kind of player you get just to trade away, not when he comes with a $50 millions price tag.

You get Jefferson if you think he is the long term solution at PF. That's it. That's the only reason why you'd do it. Any other reason and you're not doing the franchise or the player any favor.

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[bajaden]

I understand your point, but to me the importance of offense/defense varies by positions. I know you're a baseball player so please allow me to use a baseball analogy. I think of the bigs like a shortshop - the most important attributes are defense, defense and defense. A shortstop who hit .300 with 30 HRs and commit a ton of errors is <<< than a shortstop who hit .270 with 5HRs and can field like Ozzie Smith.

At the SG position, I can tolerate great offense and so-so defense. For that reason I usually give KMart a pass. But for PF and C, I think one has to be a great defender and the other at least above average.

I think Al Jefferson has reached his ceiling (mind you, it's a pretty high ceiling), he isn't going to suddenly discover how to guard people. But I think JT still has a lot of room to grow, especially defensively. He may look like a headless chicken now but in a couple of years he could become a good defender.

So if I have to pick one guy going forward, I pick JT over Jefferson. Bigger, younger, cheaper, has better defensive potential.

Now if it's Chris Bosh or Amare, that's a different story. I think they can become good defenders under the right coach.

I understand your analogy, and to a certain degree I agree with it. At least in baseball terms. But basketball is a little different sport. A great defensive center can help compensate for a mediocre defensive PF. But a great defensive 2nd baseman can't do much to compensate for a bad defensive shortstop. But I know that it wasn't your intent to compare sports. But let me take a little futher if you will.

If your going to have the luxury of a 250 hitting, great defensive shortstop, which by the way is considered pretty good today, you can make up for it by having a 320 average 30 homerun hitting third baseman. Add in a good hitting first baseman and your fine. But put a team on the field that doesn't compensate for the weak hitting shortstop, and you have the Oakland A's.

The bottom line is, that the team with the most points at the end of the game usually wins. There are a lot of ways to get to that goal. Its just a matter of picking the best one for your team.

 

[beb0p]

So then your premise is that players can improve defensively. Gasol is a better team defender, but if you were looking to trade for a defensive big you would not trade for Gasol.

Frankly I agree with Bajaden, get Jefferson and then pair him with a big who plays D.

Or just get the team as a whole playing good team defence. As I've said before, neither Webber or Vlade were great defenders, yet our 2002 team in particular was one of the top 2-4 defensive teams in the league.

I did not say you MUST have a young Bill Russell. I said you need good to great defensive big. The key words here is "good to great." Gasol is not great, but he is good; especially when he matches up with the PFs instead of the Cs.

Webber and Divac were very good defenders. Webber doesn't always play hard on defense but when he focus on it (usually in big games) he is a fantastic defender. And I'm surprised at how underrated Divac is defensively, even by Kings fans. We never would have beaten the Mavs if it weren't for Divac's defense in that series. We were the top 2-4 defensive team precisely because we had very good defensive bigs. Swap in Al Jefferson for Webber and no one would ever remember the Kings from that era.

 

[ParniValjak]

So you want Jefferson because he's a good trade chip? Al Jefferson is not the kind of player you get just to trade away, not when he comes with a $50 millions price tag.

You get Jefferson if you think he is the long term solution at PF. That's it. That's the only reason why you'd do it. Any other reason and you're not doing the franchise or the player any favor.

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I think you missed the point entirely!

You trade for Jefferson because you think he is your long term solution at PF. If that doesn't work out as you hoped then he becomes a major trade chip that will be easy to trade because there are not many legitimate 20/10 PF with a legitimate post game in the league.

Seriously, if T-Wolves come to us and said, we give you Al Jefferson for Kevin Martin (and even if they asked for Hawes as well as Martin) we should make that move all day, every day!

He is a genuine PF, a 20/10 player, who is in the right age group AND he is not a headcase. Whats there not to like, especially since you have you superstar outside player in Tyreke and you don't expect Al to be THE man. He becomes a wingman, and a bloody good one at that.

Anyone who remotely suggests that JT is remotely in the same league as Al is wearing some seriously purple coloured glasses. Its a no contest. You instantly become a YOUNG play off team in the west that is one move away (for a solid defensive C) from contention. Jefferson is 24 or 25 and is a genuine 20/10 player who was VERY stiff not to get the All-Star gig last year.

 

[bajaden]

I did not say you MUST have a young Bill Russell. I said you need good to great defensive big. The key words here is "good to great." Gasol is not great, but he is good; especially when he matches up with the PFs instead of the Cs.

Webber and Divac were very good defenders. Webber doesn't always play hard on defense but when he focus on it (usually in big games) he is a fantastic defender. And I'm surprised at how underrated Divac is defensively, even by Kings fans. We never would have beaten the Mavs if it weren't for Divac's defense in that series. We were the top 2-4 defensive team precisely because we had very good defensive bigs. Swap in Al Jefferson for Webber and no one would ever remember the Kings from that era.

You know there would uncanny timing in bringing Jefferson here right now. Webb was 25 years old when he came to the Kings. Jefferson is 25 years old right now. Webb, although always thought of as a very good player, had never really been on a winning team. So he came with a reputation that was somewhat marred, deserved or not. Jefferson has had a similar past. He's never ever played on a good team, to the extent that somehow its marred his reputation. Most people questioned Webbers ability to fit in here in sacramento for a variety of reasons. Now most people, well some people, are questioning Jeffersons ability to fit in here. Hey, maybe its fate knocking on the door twice.

Like Jimmy Stewert said in the movie " How the west was won " when talking to the beautiful woman whose name escapes me. " Standing here talking to you is like coming face to face with a grizzley bear on a narrow ledge. There's no denying the situation."

 

[Vlade4GM]

You know there would uncanny timing in bringing Jefferson here right now. Webb was 25 years old when he came to the Kings. Jefferson is 25 years old right now. Webb, although always thought of as a very good player, had never really been on a winning team. So he came with a reputation that was somewhat marred, deserved or not. Jefferson has had a similar past. He's never ever played on a good team, to the extent that somehow its marred his reputation. Most people questioned Webbers ability to fit in here in sacramento for a variety of reasons. Now most people, well some people, are questioning Jeffersons ability to fit in here. Hey, maybe its fate knocking on the door twice.

Like Jimmy Stewert said in the movie " How the west was won " when talking to the beautiful woman whose name escapes me. " Standing here talking to you is like coming face to face with a grizzley bear on a narrow ledge. There's no denying the situation."

Why is it that every time someone compares some player available for trade to Chris Webber's trade they compare circumstances of Webber's age, team history, and not about his specific skills and how it affects a team in basketball games? It doesn't make any sense, there's no reason to believe that if you re-create the circumstances under which Webber was traded for, that you'll re-create the same result that Webber's GAME brought.

 

[Tetsujin]

You know there would uncanny timing in bringing Jefferson here right now. Webb was 25 years old when he came to the Kings. Jefferson is 25 years old right now. Webb, although always thought of as a very good player, had never really been on a winning team. So he came with a reputation that was somewhat marred, deserved or not. Jefferson has had a similar past. He's never ever played on a good team, to the extent that somehow its marred his reputation. Most people questioned Webbers ability to fit in here in sacramento for a variety of reasons. Now most people, well some people, are questioning Jeffersons ability to fit in here. Hey, maybe its fate knocking on the door twice.

Like Jimmy Stewert said in the movie " How the west was won " when talking to the beautiful woman whose name escapes me. " Standing here talking to you is like coming face to face with a grizzley bear on a narrow ledge. There's no denying the situation."

Unfortunately, like Chris Webber, Jefferson has major knee issues.

 

[beb0p]

I understand your analogy, and to a certain degree I agree with it. At least in baseball terms. But basketball is a little different sport. A great defensive center can help compensate for a mediocre defensive PF. But a great defensive 2nd baseman can't do much to compensate for a bad defensive shortstop. But I know that it wasn't your intent to compare sports. But let me take a little futher if you will.

All I have to say is that center have to be one of the best defensive big men in the league - a first/second all defensive team type of player for it to work. Otherwise, it'll be like Haywood/Jamison or Pryzbilla/Zach Randolph, not good.

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[beb0p]

I think you missed the point entirely!

You trade for Jefferson because you think he is your long term solution at PF. If that doesn't work out as you hoped then he becomes a major trade chip that will be easy to trade because there are not many legitimate 20/10 PF with a legitimate post game in the league.

Seriously, if T-Wolves come to us and said, we give you Al Jefferson for Kevin Martin (and even if they asked for Hawes as well as Martin) we should make that move all day, every day!

He is a genuine PF, a 20/10 player, who is in the right age group AND he is not a headcase. Whats there not to like, especially since you have you superstar outside player in Tyreke and you don't expect Al to be THE man. He becomes a wingman, and a bloody good one at that.

Anyone who remotely suggests that JT is remotely in the same league as Al is wearing some seriously purple coloured glasses. Its a no contest. You instantly become a YOUNG play off team in the west that is one move away (for a solid defensive C) from contention. Jefferson is 24 or 25 and is a genuine 20/10 player who was VERY stiff not to get the All-Star gig last year.

Except there is no way in hell the T-Wolves gives up Jefferson for Martin. Sure, if all it takes is a one-dimensional SG to get Jefferson I'm for it. But seriously now.

If that dreamy one-sided trade is what you're working off of, I can see why Al Jefferson is attractive. But let's come back to reality shall we? The amount of commodity it takes to get Big Al is not going to leave the Kings with much, assuming it's even possible to get him without giving up Evans (who the T-Wolves will undoubtedly asked for).

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[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Well, Jefferson is good at one aspect of Defense - Rebounding. So at least its something.

At the end of the day, a Jefferson for Martin ideal is one you have to do. A potent scoring post player is a lot more important than a potent scoring wing player. Sure, you need to fill that defensive gap, but you will need that player no matter who your starting power forward is. All the good teams have one, and Im hoping we might just find ours in the draft this year.


EDIT: After I posted this I noticed there was a new post in front of mine. Your right, I doubt it will only take Martin to get us Jefferson. That being said, I'd be willing to trade anyone aside for Tyreke and Casspi with Martin to get him. We may have to give up one of Thompson / Hawes and maybe even throw in Kenny Thomas and take back on of there bad contracts. There is a point where they may ask for too much and thats fine, whatever. I'd like to have Jefferson on this team, but other deals will come along if the asking price gets rediculous. David Kahn is a terrible GM though, so you never know.

 

[ParniValjak]

Except there is no way in hell the T-Wolves gives up Jefferson for Martin. Sure, if all it takes is a one-dimensional SG to get Jefferson I'm for it. But seriously now.

If that dreamy one-sided trade is what you're working off of, I can see why Al Jefferson is attractive. But let's come back to reality shall we? The amount of commodity it takes to get Big Al is not going to leave the Kings with much, assuming it's even possible to get him without giving up Evans (who the T-Wolves will undoubtedly asked for).

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Of course its going to cost more that Martin but no where near what you are saying it will.

I can just about guarantee that Martin+Hawes package gets a serious consideration from T-Wolves because they get their wing scorer in Martin and a C in Hawes that would actually fit Rambis' triangle offense.

Fact is that Al might well be available and he would be a very good consolation prize if you cannot get Bosh and he is not going to cost anywhere near what you are making it sound as.

As MassachusettsKingsFan suggested, there is a whole heap of assets that we can throw at T-wolves to get the trade over the line. Sure they will ask about Tyrke knowing full well that they won't get him. Just like if Cavs asked for Martin we would ask for LeBron because it doesn't hurt to ask but we all know full well that he is not getting traded.

 

[beb0p]

You know there would uncanny timing in bringing Jefferson here right now. Webb was 25 years old when he came to the Kings. Jefferson is 25 years old right now. Webb, although always thought of as a very good player, had never really been on a winning team. So he came with a reputation that was somewhat marred, deserved or not. Jefferson has had a similar past. He's never ever played on a good team, to the extent that somehow its marred his reputation. Most people questioned Webbers ability to fit in here in sacramento for a variety of reasons. Now most people, well some people, are questioning Jeffersons ability to fit in here. Hey, maybe its fate knocking on the door twice.

Webb was on several winning teams before he came to Sac. Including the Washington team that made the playoff. That team had a winning record in Webber's last season there even though they missed the playoff.

So Web had a history of winning, although not big-time winning. Jefferson has been on nothing but horrible teams. And I'm talking about horrible teams that built around him.

But unless I'm missing something, I don't believe we have a chance to get Jefferson. Big Al has been offered to the Pacers... for their franchise player no less. It follows that the T-Wolves will be asking for our franchise player in return for Jefferson.

 

[beb0p]

Of course its going to cost more that Martin but no where near what you are saying it will.

I can just about guarantee that Martin+Hawes package gets a serious consideration from T-Wolves because they get their wing scorer in Martin and a C in Hawes that would actually fit Rambis' triangle offense.

Fact is that Al might well be available and he would be a very good consolation prize if you cannot get Bosh and he is not going to cost anywhere near what you are making it sound as.

As MassachusettsKingsFan suggested, there is a whole heap of assets that we can throw at T-wolves to get the trade over the line. Sure they will ask about Tyrke knowing full well that they won't get him. Just like if Cavs asked for Martin we would ask for LeBron because it doesn't hurt to ask but we all know full well that he is not getting traded.

It's pretty obvious what the T-Wolves are looking for in return. They asked for the Pacer's best player aka franchise player. And when they were told no, the conversation stopped. Just stopped. No counter offer.

What the T-Wolves want is a franchise player, a Danny Granger calibre wing player. They're looking for someone to take the place of Jefferson as the face of the franchise, someone to build the team around. Martin and Hawes will probably get some chuckle. Unless of course, Martin elevates his game to the level of a Danny Granger. But if that happens I'd like to keep Martin.

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[Vlade4GM]

They're not going to get a franchise player for him and they do need to trade him eventually, it would be stupid not to. They're not going anywhere with that frontcourt defense.

 

[Bricklayer]

Webb was on several winning teams before he came to Sac. Including the Washington team that made the playoff. That team had a winning record in Webber's last season there even though they missed the playoff.

So Web had a history of winning, although not big-time winning. Jefferson has been on nothing but horrible teams. And I'm talking about horrible teams that built around him.

But unless I'm missing something, I don't believe we have a chance to get Jefferson. Big Al has been offered to the Pacers... for their franchise player no less. It follows that the T-Wolves will be asking for our franchise player in return for Jefferson.

Their "franchise player" is a 25ppg 3pt chucker at this point. So is Kevin. And they couldn't get Granger. Meaning that if they are interested in moving him, they have to consider the next level down. And their needs are clearly an outside shooting SG or SF. And of course we have all kinds of sweetening pieces that could make it go.

As an aside, yes, Webb was considerably better than Jefferson, or Bosh for that matter. But again that is an irrelvant argument because Al eeferson DOES NOT NEED TO CARRY THE TEAM. He just need to be a constant force inside, night in and night out. A big good enough to match with any other big any night and have a good chance of coming out on top. Reke and the kids take care of the rest.

 

[BMiller52]

Their "franchise player" is a 25ppg 3pt chucker at this point. So is Kevin. And they couldn't get Granger. Meaning that if they are interested in moving him, they have to consider the next level down. And their needs are clearly an outside shooting SG or SF. And of course we have all kinds of sweetening pieces that could make it go.

As an aside, yes, Webb was considerably better than Jefferson, or Bosh for that matter. But again that is an irrelvant argument because Al eeferson DOES NOT NEED TO CARRY THE TEAM. He just need to be a constant force inside, night in and night out. A big good enough to match with any other big any night and have a good chance of coming out on top. Reke and the kids take care of the rest.

Don't forget that Al Jeff is only 25 and Bosh is only 24. Both of those guys have plenty of time to get better.

 

[SacTownGrantFan]

Brick, for someone like you who preaches defense a lot, you sure have fondness for offensive bigs who don't play a lick of defense.

Bigs who win championships are good to great defenders: your Shaq, Ben Wallace, David Robinson, Duncan, Rasheed Wallace, Gasol, Rodman, Laimbeer, Hakeem.

Al Jefferson is just a guy who scores a lot of points, grab a lot of rebounds and don't win you a lot of games. We've seen his type of bigs before (Zach Randolph, SAR, etc). This type of bigs will make your team entertaining but they never take you to the promise land, not even when they're paired with supposedly star players.

There is a myth surrounding Al Jefferson. The myth is that he can be an average if not good defender if he is just put back at his rightful place at PF. As if coaches have never thought of it before. Fact is, Jefferson is even worse at guarding PFs than Cs. Jason Thompson, for all his flaws, at least tried to guard his man. Jefferson, for all intent and purpose, plays as if there's a clause in his contract that reduces his salary if he even attempt to put his hands up.

That's not to say I'm completely opposed to Big Al. If the Kings are going to abandon this defense thing and just go all out Phoenix stylethen I say get Jefferson and let's have some 150-145 games. But if there is a believe that defense needs to be stressed then JT is the better way to go. This has been said many times before but offense is not our problem. We desparately need a good defensive big and Al Jefferson is not that.

Kevin traded for who = Kings to the promise land? We don't exactly have a ton of trade leverage to become an elite team right now, we're building. To get to the 'promise land' would require another jackpot in the draft of a big man or such. It requires some luck. If we can trade Martin for a player equal to Hakeem, Shaq, or Duncan in their primes, please, please let me know.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

I did not say you MUST have a young Bill Russell. I said you need good to great defensive big. The key words here is "good to great." Gasol is not great, but he is good; especially when he matches up with the PFs instead of the Cs.

Webber and Divac were very good defenders. Webber doesn't always play hard on defense but when he focus on it (usually in big games) he is a fantastic defender. And I'm surprised at how underrated Divac is defensively, even by Kings fans. We never would have beaten the Mavs if it weren't for Divac's defense in that series. We were the top 2-4 defensive team precisely because we had very good defensive bigs. Swap in Al Jefferson for Webber and no one would ever remember the Kings from that era.

I don't think there's any reason to believe that Jefferson cannot be as good of a defensive players as at least Gasol, Webber and Divac. In fact he is a perfectly fine defensive PF, just a bad defensive center.

 

[beb0p]

Their "franchise player" is a 25ppg 3pt chucker at this point. So is Kevin. And they couldn't get Granger. Meaning that if they are interested in moving him, they have to consider the next level down. And their needs are clearly an outside shooting SG or SF. And of course we have all kinds of sweetening pieces that could make it go.

It does not matter what you think about Granger, all that matters is that Kevin Martin is not as good as Granger. Even your post implied you knew that.

And no, they don't have to consider the next level down. This is not a fire sale. In fact, they are under no pressure to trade Jefferson, none at all. They still have plenty of options available and plenty of time - especially entering this summer when there are going to be a lot of player movement and changing of teams dynamic.

If your "sweetening pieces" is Hawes/Casspi, don't even bother. Would you pair Kevin Love with Spencer Hawes? Honestly? Would you trade Al Jefferson for a one dimensional SG and a hustling sixth man?

As an aside, yes, Webb was considerably better than Jefferson, or Bosh for that matter. But again that is an irrelvant argument because Al eeferson DOES NOT NEED TO CARRY THE TEAM. He just need to be a constant force inside, night in and night out. A big good enough to match with any other big any night and have a good chance of coming out on top. Reke and the kids take care of the rest.

I don't disagree with you. Jefferson is not perfect but he fills a need in some area (namely post scoring). But couple of years from now, I think JT is the better all-around player compare to Jefferson - JT will be a 15-10 guy who defends, hustle, and can pass the ball; while Jefferson is a 22-10 black hole who can't spell defense. That's why I say I'd choose JT to go forward with.

 

[beb0p]

Kevin traded for who = Kings to the promise land? We don't exactly have a ton of trade leverage to become an elite team right now, we're building. To get to the 'promise land' would require another jackpot in the draft of a big man or such. It requires some luck. If we can trade Martin for a player equal to Hakeem, Shaq, or Duncan in their primes, please, please let me know.

You don't have to have Duncan/Shaq/Hakeem to win championships. Sure, nice to have them but they're not required. You can compensate in other areas, like a killer backcourt to pair with a Laimbeer/Rodman frontcourt for example.

But yes, we need another star to pair with Tyreke. Jefferson is not a star even the pro-Jefferson fans acknowledged that.

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[sdballer]

It does not matter what you think about Granger, all that matters is that Kevin Martin is not as good as Granger. Even your post implied you knew that.

And no, they don't have to consider the next level down. This is not a fire sale. In fact, they are under no pressure to trade Jefferson, none at all. They still have plenty of options available and plenty of time - especially entering this summer when there are going to be a lot of player movement and changing of teams dynamic.

If your "sweetening pieces" is Hawes/Casspi, don't even bother. Would you pair Kevin Love with Spencer Hawes? Honestly? Would you trade Al Jefferson for a one dimensional SG and a hustling sixth man?





I don't disagree with you. Jefferson is not perfect but he fills a need in some area (namely post scoring). But couple of years from now, I think JT is the better all-around player compare to Jefferson - JT will be a 15-10 guy who defends, hustle, and can pass the ball; while Jefferson is a 22-10 black hole who can't spell defense. That's why I say I'd choose JT to go forward with.

What are we basing this growth vs. lack of for Thompson and Jefferson. I don't know why people are so concerned about Al's defense in comparison to Jasons. Jason fouls too much, get's poor positioning, isn't a good weakside defender, etc. To be honest, I think they are fairly equal defenders except Al has to play out of position every night. The comparison isn't really close and the clincher for me; Al is only one year older than Thompson so it's not like Jason is some youngster with a good half decade of development ahead of him compared to Al being on the downside of his career.

 

[sdballer]

You don't have to have Duncan/Shaq/Hakeem to win championships. Sure, nice to have them but they're not required. You can compensate in other areas, like a killer backcourt to pair with a Laimbeer/Rodman frontcourt for example.

But yes, we need another star to pair with Tyreke. Jefferson is not a star even the pro-Jefferson fans acknowledged that.

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No, Jefferson is a star. He just isn't a superstar to build a team on. He's a top 10 (maybe 15) big man in the league and is just 25 years old. We need to be careful not to over and under value him.

 

[beb0p]

What are we basing this growth vs. lack of for Thompson and Jefferson. I don't know why people are so concerned about Al's defense in comparison to Jasons. Jason fouls too much, get's poor positioning, isn't a good weakside defender, etc. To be honest, I think they are fairly equal defenders except Al has to play out of position every night. The comparison isn't really close and the clincher for me; Al is only one year older than Thompson so it's not like Jason is some youngster with a good half decade of development ahead of him compared to Al being on the downside of his career.

JT is taller, bigger, longer, more athletic, better lateral mover, and a scrapper. He is also clueless as to how to maximize his physical tool. But there is no play here on who has the higher ceiling on defense. Even the pro-Jefferson fans acknowledged that we absolutely need a great defensive center next to Big Al. There is simply no room for argument here as far as I'm concerned, if you're talking about defense.

 

[beb0p]

No, Jefferson is a star. He just isn't a superstar to build a team on. He's a top 10 (maybe 15) big man in the league and is just 25 years old. We need to be careful not to over and under value him.

I'm not going to argue over the schematics of a star vs. a superstar. I don't think any two people has the same definition of what a star is and what a superstar is, and frankly it doesn't matter. Because if I understand your point then you and I are essentially in agreement on this.

 

[SacTownGrantFan]

You don't have to have Duncan/Shaq/Hakeem to win championships. Sure, nice to have them but they're not required. You can compensate in other areas, like a killer backcourt to pair with a Laimbeer/Rodman frontcourt for example.

But yes, we need another star to pair with Tyreke. Jefferson is not a star even the pro-Jefferson fans acknowledged that.

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You see, your entire premise of argument is off here. We don't have leverage to acquire a legitimate all around star in a trade. Throwing out legendary names does not make sense at all in this situation.

You are taking a realistic optimism of acquiring a pretty good player, rejecting it, and throwing in all of these legendary (or near legendary) names to defend your argument. Are you kidding me?

 

[beb0p]

You see, your entire premise of argument is off here. We don't have leverage to acquire a legitimate all around star in a trade. Throwing out legendary names does not make sense at all in this situation.

You are taking a realistic optimism of acquiring a pretty good player, rejecting it, and throwing in all of these legendary (or near legendary) names to defend your argument. Are you kidding me?

Huh???

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[Bricklayer]

I'm not going to argue over the schematics of a star vs. a superstar. I don't think any two people has the same definition of what a star is and what a superstar is, and frankly it doesn't matter. Because if I understand your point then you and I are essentially in agreement on this.

Al Jefferson is a Top 20-25 player in this league. Go ahead and deny his starhood if you would like. Its cute, but changes nothing. If you want to call top 25 players scrubs, cool. Then he's a scrub. And he's still a top 25 player, Top 5 PF. 20-10 man. That can't be semantic'ed out.

 

[beb0p]

Al Jefferson is a Top 20-25 player in this league. Go ahead and deny his starhood if you would like. Its cute, but changes nothing. If you want to call top 25 players scrubs, cool. Then he's a scrub. And he's still a top 25 player, Top 5 PF. 20-10 man. That can't be semantic'ed out.

I don't think of players in terms of top 50 or top 25 or top whatever. I think in terms of impact and fit. 20-10 doesn't mean much, it's a good stats I suppose but there are 20-10 players who don't win you anything.

I did not say I don't want Jefferson on the team. But between JT and Big Al, I prefer JT. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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[SacKings7]

I don't think of players in terms of top 50 or top 25 or top whatever. I think in terms of impact and fit. 20-10 doesn't mean much, it's a good stats I suppose but there are 20-10 players who don't win you anything.

I did not say I don't want Jefferson on the team. But between JT and Big Al, I prefer JT. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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That's cool. Some people think JT is gonna be really good someday. I'm not one of them but whatever.

I agree with you in one sense in that Al isn't a superstar. But he is IMO the best low post scorer in the game today. And having a player who can score down low is critical. I don't see how you can judge Jefferson's impact on a team, since he was young on Boston, and now Minny just plain sucks. There's always the argument that he's always been on losing teams and therefore has no impact, but...read the first sentence in this paragraph. He's not a superstar. He's not supposed to turn bad teams into good teams. I bet that he can turn an average/good team into a good/great team though