Yahoo rumor: Wolves shopping Jefferson
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DocHolliday
Starter
This may have been posted in the thread already, but Jason Ross just made a good point while covering for Grant.
Al Jeffersons' numbers for this season so far
PPG 17.8 RPG 9.30 APG 2.1 EFF + 19.81
Jason Thompsons' numbers for this season so far
PPG 14.2
RPG 8.90 APG 2.1 EFF + 17.41
And I did not realize that Jefferson has had micro-fracture surgery? And he's making about 12 mill, topping out at about 15 mill?? Is a guy with those numbers and that has had micro fracture surgery worth that much, when we pretty much have the equivalent in Jason Thompson. I mean Thompsons' numbers have to be affected by the last week, and he's just in a slump, probably the longest slump of his 1.5 year career.
Al Jeffersons' numbers for this season so far
PPG 17.8 RPG 9.30 APG 2.1 EFF + 19.81
Jason Thompsons' numbers for this season so far
PPG 14.2
RPG 8.90 APG 2.1 EFF + 17.41
And I did not realize that Jefferson has had micro-fracture surgery? And he's making about 12 mill, topping out at about 15 mill?? Is a guy with those numbers and that has had micro fracture surgery worth that much, when we pretty much have the equivalent in Jason Thompson. I mean Thompsons' numbers have to be affected by the last week, and he's just in a slump, probably the longest slump of his 1.5 year career.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
If Jason Ross even remotely suggested that JT is an equivalent for Al Jefferson, you need to call him up and tell him he's an idiot for me.
Big Al started slow coming back form the knee, has gotten stroenger every month, and is averaging 20-11 this month again, after averaging 23 and 11 last season. Last night you put him against Dwight, and its no blowout. Its not even guaranteed who comes out on top. There is a vast gulf there. Jefferson scores every night as a primary option. He is frequently doubled. He has a huge post game. Jason scores mostly garbage points. And occasional jumper, an occasional take.
The thing people often don't realize is just HOW much better top stars are then guys down a level or two who have solid numbers. A top star, a Big Al, a Tyreke, spend their entire basketball lives being doubled and game planned for. And they still put up better numbers than anybody else. Give them the attention that JT draws, and they score 30 a night. Have teams treat Tyreke the way they treat Beno -- single coverage, just guard him with your PG, and he's 30-5-5. Jefferson is >>> JT.
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bajaden
Hall of Famer
First off, Jason (Ross) was simply playing devils advocate, and I don't think he was serious about the comparison. Secondly, as much as I've been a Jason (Thompson) supporter, (its been difficult of late) Jason is no Al Jefferson. Jefferson is a solid low post player you can throw the ball to and good things ususally happen. As matter of fact, if we could aquire him without losing Jason, he would be a good role model for Jason.
I would like to point out something that occurred to me during the last game. It seems that every team is now packing the middle to keep Tyreke out of the paint. As a result, I think its making Jason's game in the post a lot more difficult. I think there's a correlation between the change in the defensive alignments and Jason's bad play. Now thats not an excuse. It means he has to adjust. If there's three players packing the middle, and one of them is Dwight Howard, I think you might want to choose another way to attack.
ParniValjak
All-Star
I am pretty sure Big Al's knee surgery was not microfracture. He tore his ACL which is different to having a micro fracture surgery.
Your chances of coming back to full strength are greater after a total knee reco than after microfracture.
Your chances of coming back to full strength are greater after a total knee reco than after microfracture.
Emma
Starter
How about,
Minnesota in:
Martin, Garcia, and Rodriguez
Sacramento in:
Ramon Sessions and Al Jefferson
Our new lineup would be:
Evans / Sessions
Greene / Udrih
Casspi / Noc
Jefferson / Thompson / Brockman
Hawes / Thompson / (Armstrong)
We save an additional 1.4 million in salary this year, sew up a very good PF for 4 years @ 12 mil each year, and Minnesota gets the wings they need. Obviously, we would have to trade or make a free agent run for a kicka** sg, but they are easier to find, and come cheaper than all star quality PF's.
Or we can shift Evans to the two and have this:
Sessions / Udrih
Evans / Greene
Casspi / Noc
Jefferson / Thompson / Brockman
Hawes / Thompson / (Armstrong)
That reminds me of the Miami Heat's set up.
Minnesota in:
Martin, Garcia, and Rodriguez
Sacramento in:
Ramon Sessions and Al Jefferson
Our new lineup would be:
Evans / Sessions
Greene / Udrih
Casspi / Noc
Jefferson / Thompson / Brockman
Hawes / Thompson / (Armstrong)
We save an additional 1.4 million in salary this year, sew up a very good PF for 4 years @ 12 mil each year, and Minnesota gets the wings they need. Obviously, we would have to trade or make a free agent run for a kicka** sg, but they are easier to find, and come cheaper than all star quality PF's.
Or we can shift Evans to the two and have this:
Sessions / Udrih
Evans / Greene
Casspi / Noc
Jefferson / Thompson / Brockman
Hawes / Thompson / (Armstrong)
That reminds me of the Miami Heat's set up.
I don't think they'd want to deal Sessions with Al Jeff. I thought they liked Sessions. Besides, I think Garcia compliments Evans pretty well if we lose Martin. I want to keep him.
ParniValjak
All-Star
Big Al had a beastly 26/26 against Houston in triple OT today. I know he has played 49 minutes in that game and it was against Houston's midget frontline but that is a beastly game in anyone's language.
DocHolliday
Starter
I just had never really looked at the guy's stat lines until now, and I'm not a fan of acquiring people that have had micro-fracture surgery. It just scares the **** out of me.
Also, Ryan as far as Kevin...if he is traded, I don't beleive it will be before the trade deadline. It would be in the off-season. It's going to take a few months to be certain if Tyreke and Martin play well together. Today is Jan. 14th. The trade deadline is Feb 18th correct?
One month would not be a fair guage in my opinion.
Also, Ryan as far as Kevin...if he is traded, I don't beleive it will be before the trade deadline. It would be in the off-season. It's going to take a few months to be certain if Tyreke and Martin play well together. Today is Jan. 14th. The trade deadline is Feb 18th correct?
One month would not be a fair guage in my opinion.
Which would clog the lane for Evans' best skill-set - SCORING AT THE RIM.
Factoring in age, injury history, contract status, potential, fit and production give me Thompson 10 times out 10 please.
Thompson isn't a star and won't be paid like one. Jefferson's not a star and is paid like one, that's recipe for disaster, especially when factor how JT FITS with this team's roster dynamics.
sidney
Starter
I don't know....look at how much Portland paid Aldridge this past summer and then compare their stats. Even solid numbers from a 6'11" PF can lead to a bloated contract. We won't be able to lock JT up for just over the MLE. He's going to cost a lot.
Emma
Starter
Okay, I see your point. I am willing to let Martin and Evans work for the remainder of the year as well. I'm starting to get really excited about seeing them play together.
What does that even mean? I like the guy, but he's definitely a work in progress. Roster dynamics? Maybe we should trade for more wing players?
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Uh yeah.
Other, of course, than being one of the ten best bigs in the whole league. He's not a SUPERstar. But that's different, and largely irrelevant since we don't need him to be. Quite obviously nobody is suggesting that we get Al Jefferson to be THE star here and lead the team. His intended role is wingman to our own home grown superstar.
The pure post game and potential for interference with Reke is one of the reasons that I prefer Bosh's inside outside abilities, but it can and has been worked around time and again in this league. In fact titles have been won with that "problem" -- think Duncan with Parker, Shaq with Wade. With careful application, its far from an insurmountable problem, and the space such a pairing creates for all the shooters on your roster is ridiculous. Bigs are already cheating over to cut off Reke's penetration because they don't respect our frontcourt guys at all, and on most nights they shouldn't. Might as well give them something to worry about in there.
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bajaden
Hall of Famer
This has been stated several times and needs to be clarified. Jefferson did not have Micro-fracture surgery. He has surgery to repair his right ACL. Which is not nearly as serious as Micro-fracture surgery.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
That's not the relevant consideration.
The ONLY time this "one month to judge" stuff would matter is if you are talking about dumping Kevin for a bag of chips...or a draft pick, or something similarly speculative. When you are talking about trading him for an equal or arguably greater star then it does not matter whetehr its 1 month, 1 day, or 1 year. Whether Kevin and Reke works isn't the relevant question then. The question would be the very real possibility Reke and star-to-be-named-later work better, and there is no way to know that except by making the trade and trying it out.
But if you've wacthed the league over the years you can certainly take a good guess which works better. Star big/star little has won and won and won and has always formed the backbone of most top teams.
I understand your point but what concerns me is that the Kings' wins have too often come despite JTs efforts or put another way, even with his screwups. That's OK, we'll take that as long JT moves to overcome those problems. He hasn't yet.
beb0p
Starter
Uh yeah.
He's not a SUPERstar. But that's different, and largely irrelevant since we don't need him to be. Quite obviously nobody is suggesting that we get Al Jefferson to be THE star here and lead the team. His intended role is wingman to our own home grown superstar.
The pure post game and potential for interference with Reke is one of the reasons that I prefer Bosh's inside outside abilities, but it can and has been worked around time and again in this league. In fact titles have been won with that "problem" -- think Duncan with Parker, Shaq with Wade. With careful application, its far from an insurmountable problem, and the space such a pairing creates for all the shooters on your roster is ridiculous. Bigs are already cheating over to cut off Reke's penetration because they don't respect our frontcourt guys at all, and on most nights they shouldn't. Might as well give them something to worry about in there.
Brick, for someone like you who preaches defense a lot, you sure have fondness for offensive bigs who don't play a lick of defense.
Bigs who win championships are good to great defenders: your Shaq, Ben Wallace, David Robinson, Duncan, Rasheed Wallace, Gasol, Rodman, Laimbeer, Hakeem.
Al Jefferson is just a guy who scores a lot of points, grab a lot of rebounds and don't win you a lot of games. We've seen his type of bigs before (Zach Randolph, SAR, etc). This type of bigs will make your team entertaining but they never take you to the promise land, not even when they're paired with supposedly star players.
There is a myth surrounding Al Jefferson. The myth is that he can be an average if not good defender if he is just put back at his rightful place at PF. As if coaches have never thought of it before. Fact is, Jefferson is even worse at guarding PFs than Cs. Jason Thompson, for all his flaws, at least tried to guard his man. Jefferson, for all intent and purpose, plays as if there's a clause in his contract that reduces his salary if he even attempt to put his hands up.
That's not to say I'm completely opposed to Big Al. If the Kings are going to abandon this defense thing and just go all out Phoenix style then I say get Jefferson and let's have some 150-145 games. But if there is a believe that defense needs to be stressed then JT is the better way to go. This has been said many times before but offense is not our problem. We desparately need a good defensive big and Al Jefferson is not that.
Widowmaker2k
Bench
I agree and disagree. I agree that we need to be thinking defense first, but our offense is far from perfect. Despite the fact that we're one of the best offensive teams in the league, we go for quarters where we can't buy a bucket, and it's cost us games. Trading Martin for Jefferson doesn't fix our defensive issues, but it does balance the offense in a style more befitting of the post season. Right now, with the exception of a few jumpers by JT and Spencer Hawes hot streaks, the majority of our offense consists of perimeter guys making threes or slashing to the hoop.
Ideally, we wan't a player that can balance the offense and be a lock down defender from the 4/5 spot, but there are only a handful of guys like that in the entire league, and none of them are going anywhere any time soon. Our only chance at one of them is to get lucky in the upcoming draft (which may just have a few of those guys in it). Other than that, we might as well try and get an offensive stud big man and put some defensive role players around him (think Gortat). You can win with team defense and defensive role players, we ourselves came damn close with Pollard (despite starting Webber and Vlade, neither of whom were known as defensive stoppers).
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
We score a lot of points but as you say we are far from perfect on that side of the ball. Adding a guy that can score in half court sets using high percentage shots is something we will need along the way.
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ParniValjak
All-Star
I like the fact how you have claimed that bigs that don't play defence don't win. May I present to you Pau Gasol who is an average low post defender and Lakers won jack **** until they got him.
Fact is NO ONE here is asking Al to be THE man. He will be a wingman to Reke, just as Gasol is a wingman to Kobe.
There is a VERY limited number of bigs that play both ways equally well and those will never become available.
If you get big Al and pair him with Reke, you have your inside outside duo and then you surround them with role players that complement them. Trade for Dalembert as your defensive C. Have Cisco as your jack of all trades master of none SG that players scrappy D, shoots the long ball and makes the extra pass. Then you have Omri or Greene at SF who all do a bit of everything to help out and you have your starting 5 that can make you contender.
Young Tim Duncan is not going to walk through that door any time soon and I can almost guarantee you that frontcourt of Jefferson and Dalembert would beat the **** out of JT and Spencer pairing any day of the week and twice on sundays and would certainly make you more of a contender all day, every day.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I think that if your looking at Jefferson to be, the be all end all, then your right. But if you just think of him as one more piece of the puzzle, with maybe another couple of peices to be added later, then its a different story completely.
I'm not a big IF person. But what if, after aquiring Jefferson, we then in the offseason, either through the draft or freeagency, aquire a defensive center to play along side of him. Or perhaps by help from the tooth fairy, Hawes suddenly bulks up and learns how to play tough defense. Thats if he's still around. Then Jefferson isn't as big a liability on the defensive side of the ball.
I think that if a player brings enough from one side of the court and is passable on the other side, then its worth the effort to compensate for his liabilites. Its really no different than trading for a great defensive player that isn't all that good offensively. Your willing to give up what offense you lose with him for the defense he brings. You just try to compensate somewhere else.
beb0p
Starter
Gasol is no longer just an average defender. He used to be but he improved his defense last season and the Lakers won it all. So Gasol is another example that makes my point. You need defense back there. And there is no comparison between Gasol and Al defensively. Even on Gasol's worst day he's still a much better defender than Big Al will ever hope to be.
JT can score 35 pts if it's Jefferson guarding him. Al/Dalembert may be a little bit better right now because of JT/Hawes' lack of experience. But in a couple of years, that may very well not be the case.
How do you know an elite big man isn't going to be available? When the Blazers were trying to trade Zach Randolph, the Lakers didn't pair up Kobe with Zach did they? The Piston didn't try to put SAR alongside Billups and Rip did they? The Lakers and Pistons were patient and was rewarded with Gasol and Rasheed, who delivered the championships. We need to do the same - patience. This rebuild is going to take time.
hammystyle
Starter
This whole premise is off. So we don't trade for Jefferson because he can't guard the rim? What's Martin guarding? Its simple, Jefferson makes our team better now AND gives us a better trade chip if that's what we decide. The guy was traded for Kevin Garnett two years ago.
SAR is a good example, never won anything, but he was traded for Pau Gasol. Score and rebound PF's are worth more than a scoring SG.
As for the Lakers so-called "patience", this is the team that traded Caron Butler for Kwame Brown less a year after the Shaq trade.
Patience would indicate the Lakers and Detroit horded assets and sprung only when the moment was right. In reality they both gave away nothing and just sprung on opportnities when two poorly run franchises were in a position of bad leverage. Having Al Jefferson on the books instead of Kevin Martin when a golden moment like that arrives can only help our chances.
TTown Kings
Bench
Ideally you still pair him with a defensive minded C. Even if we were to go after and get Al or Bosh I still think we would be looking at Defensive 5s like Emeka, Chandler etc.
the other part of that puzzle is that if we are starting Tyreke and Donte we have two very very good perimiter defenders (I'd say elite but that would show my homerism and excitement for this team) Given that fact we don't really need fantastic post defenders as much as we need guys who are good on the defensive glass and aren't matadors on their own men.
beb0p
Starter
I understand your point, but to me the importance of offense/defense varies by positions. I know you're a baseball player so please allow me to use a baseball analogy. I think of the bigs like a shortshop - the most important attributes are defense, defense and defense. A shortstop who hit .300 with 30 HRs and commit a ton of errors is <<< than a shortstop who hit .270 with 5HRs and can field like Ozzie Smith.
At the SG position, I can tolerate great offense and so-so defense. For that reason I usually give KMart a pass. But for PF and C, I think one has to be a great defender and the other at least above average.
I think Al Jefferson has reached his ceiling (mind you, it's a pretty high ceiling), he isn't going to suddenly discover how to guard people. But I think JT still has a lot of room to grow, especially defensively. He may look like a headless chicken now but in a couple of years he could become a good defender.
So if I have to pick one guy going forward, I pick JT over Jefferson. Bigger, younger, cheaper, has better defensive potential.
Now if it's Chris Bosh or Amare, that's a different story. I think they can become good defenders under the right coach.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
This of course would be the key. You need inside scoring jsut as you need defense. Your inside scoring, as well as your rebounding, would not be secure. You have your slasher. You have a pack of scrappy defensive minded shooters at the 2/3. ALL you need at that point is one last piece: the defensive center. While you ae waiting to get him, you are already quite good. You are very young, so you will get better still. And you have one solitary piece to compelte your puzzle. Few teams can say as much:
C - ?????????? (defense, rebounding)
PF/C - Jefferson (post game rebounding)
PF/C - Thompson (rebounding) (or Hawes -- post game, skills)
SF/SG - Greene (defense, slashing, shooting?)
SF/SG - Casspi (scrappy, shooting)
SF/SG - Garcia (scrappy, shooting, ballhandling)
PG/SG - Evans (slashing, defense, post up guard)
PG/SG - Udrih (shooting, ballhandling)
deeper:
SF/PF - Nocioni
PF/C - Brockman
PG - Rodriguez
I've posted that lineup before. You can't solve all of your team's needs in one move -- Hakeem is retired, and even if he were not he would nto be available. But if one of the big young elite PFs is available for the expected price you can get yourself within one move. You have to keep on the building. But there is a clear path here. One trod by many an elite team over the years. We did it once with Webb actually -- he was not a serious defender when he arrived, but the closer he got to winning the better his defense got. Who knows with Al, but I do know that he has been on one long series fo depressingly bad teams since he arrived in the league. Its a sing he can't carry you by himself. Its also opens the possibility that in a better environment, on a team going places, his effort picks up. I won't even accept any pooh poohing of that from most of you, as the exact same argument is used with Kevin all the time on here.
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