Would you trade #6 for Rubio or Kidd Gilchrist?

[swisshh]

At this point, Rubio's injuries concern me. Healthy Rubio? Sure. But he gets hurt a lot.

MKG is a great defender. My question is where does he fit in? Does he become SF with Rudy as PF? He doesn't shoot and the team's lack of shooting threats is a real concern.

I like both players, but I like how WCS kinda fits a need. A PG upgrade is always good, but DC fit very well. There was never was quite the right guy at PF, despite JT's great defensive outings vs elite PFs.

 

[Letsgokings13]

No thanks, not for the 6th pick.

 

[Telemachus]

He doesn't have a huge frame (closer to Bosh than Jordan), has no offensive game, and didn't display enough raw talent and potential to be a likely lottery pick after two years of college (not a monster red-flag itself but worth considering.) It feels like we'd be using the 6th pick in the draft to take rookie Chris Anderson. That fills a need ... but if we are passing on a player that could be an All-Star in 3-4 years, I'm not sure that's prudent.

Actually, Willie cauley-stein was projected as a lottery pick after both his freshman and sophomore year.

 

[hrdboild]

Actually, Willie cauley-stein was projected as a lottery pick after both his freshman and sophomore year.

This is true, but some of that was based on potential. If you see an athletic 7 footer under 20 who can walk and chew gum at the same time, somebody will give him a shot in the lottery. After three years in college though you're more finished product than potential. I agree with Larry David on this one -- I don't think he's progressed to the point where I'm going to pass on a kid with All-Star potential for him but I'll consider him later in the lottery over long shot projects or other roleplayers.

 

[Telemachus]

This is true, but some of that was based on potential. If you see an athletic 7 footer under 20 who can walk and chew gum at the same time, somebody will give him a shot in the lottery. After three years in college though you're more finished product than potential. I agree with Larry David on this one -- I don't think he's progressed to the point where I'm going to pass on a kid with All-Star potential for him but I'll consider him later in the lottery over long shot projects or other roleplayers.

I think you need to reread what Larry David wrote. He said that cauley-stein did not show enough potential to be a lottery pick until after his third year

 

[hrdboild]

I think you need to reread what Larry David wrote. He said that cauley-stein did not show enough potential to be a lottery pick until after his third year

Fair enough You're right, I did mis-read that a bit. He would have been a late lottery pick last year and probably should be a late lottery pick again this year. I think he'll go higher than that though, maybe as high as #4 to New York. If he can put together all of his physical tools and play 30-35 high level minutes every game he might even be worth it, I just don't have a good feeling about him.

 

[rainmaker]

You want to turn around the defensive culture, you have to quit talking about it and start acquiring top defenders. You want to turn around the defensive culture QUICKLY, you need to start acquiring top defenders who have already proven they can be top defenders at the NBA level and fill out your rotation with them.

And I'm fine with doing that, hence me constantly saying we should go after R Lopez/Asik/Wright/Koufas as well as Afflalo/Matthews.

MKG is just a poor fit. Can defend but our spacing will go to ****. Rubio I'd consider, but I'm not moving the 6th pick for him. Our starting 5 wasn't a big enough of an issue to waste the 6th pick on either of these two. If we're going to upgrade the 2, then really upgrade the 2. MKG upgrades one side of the ball while being horrible on the other. Rubio is an upgrade over DC in some respects, but his atrocious shooting and injury history don't make it a clear enough upgrade to burn the upside of WCS/Mudiay on.

The #6 for Jrue Holiday or Beldsoe would have me more interested and willing. I'd much prefer their fit and you still get the defense.

 

[sdballer]

And I'm fine with doing that, hence me constantly saying we should go after R Lopez/Asik/Wright/Koufas as well as Afflalo/Matthews.

MKG is just a poor fit. Can defend but our spacing will go to ****. Rubio I'd consider, but I'm not moving the 6th pick for him. Our starting 5 wasn't a big enough of an issue to waste the 6th pick on either of these two. If we're going to upgrade the 2, then really upgrade the 2. MKG upgrades one side of the ball while being horrible on the other. Rubio is an upgrade over DC in some respects, but his atrocious shooting and injury history don't make it a clear enough upgrade to burn the upside of WCS/Mudiay on.

The #6 for Jrue Holiday or Beldsoe would have me more interested and willing. I'd much prefer their fit and you still get the defense.

You're worried about Rubio's injuries but would like Holiday? I wouldn't mind him but with his injury issues, I wouldn't touch him with the #6.

 

[rainmaker]

You're worried about Rubio's injuries but would like Holiday? I wouldn't mind him but with his injury issues, I wouldn't touch him with the #6.

No, rather I like Jrue's style of play and potential fit next to Cuz a fair amount more than Rubio's, so if I was going to take a chance on one of the two with a history of injury issues with the #6, I'd lean towards Jrue.

 

[Gilles]

And I'm fine with doing that, hence me constantly saying we should go after R Lopez/Asik/Wright/Koufas as well as Afflalo/Matthews.

MKG is just a poor fit. Can defend but our spacing will go to ****. Rubio I'd consider, but I'm not moving the 6th pick for him. Our starting 5 wasn't a big enough of an issue to waste the 6th pick on either of these two. If we're going to upgrade the 2, then really upgrade the 2. MKG upgrades one side of the ball while being horrible on the other. Rubio is an upgrade over DC in some respects, but his atrocious shooting and injury history don't make it a clear enough upgrade to burn the upside of WCS/Mudiay on.

The #6 for Jrue Holiday or Beldsoe would have me more interested and willing. I'd much prefer their fit and you still get the defense.

Lillard-Matthews-Batum-Aldridge-Lopez - 1222 poss - 0.980 PPP against
Lillard-Afflalo-Batum-Aldridge-Lopez - 689 poss - 1.125 PPP against

The real difference in defensive ability is likely not as pronounced, but that chasm is huge.

 

[KingsFanGER]

MKG is still only 21 years old and his shot looked quite a bit different from his first years in the league. This ugly twitch with the elbow while reaching the top of his release is almost gone. At least that is how it looked in the few games I actually watched the Hornets this season. So maybe there is still some hope, that he can develop a jumpshot and the kid is a heck of a player in almost every other aspect of the game.
Would be a huge gamble, but it's not like most rookies turn out to be the player they are made by scouts or experts publishing youtube videos. The draft is always a bit of a gamble too.
Every year there are people that claim some prospects have the ceiling of guys like Ginobili, DRose or even Lebron and every year it turns out, that most players are just rookies and struggle in their first years in the league.
Thats why I'm not so worried about, who the Kings draft, but more about what happens after they drafted a player. Very few players got drafted and turned out the be stars right away. Most players are made into stars, by constantly working on their game. And this is an area, where the Kings completely failed for more than a decade.
So taking a player, who has already proven, that he has a niche in this league, might be worth a closer look.
Rubio and MKG might be guys, that would help our defense. If I would be asked to make the choice I would go after Smart though.
Smarts jumpshot doesn't look broken, he played a lot of SG for the Celtics, but has really good court vision and he may be the best rookie perimeter defender I ever saw, because his defense is not about his athletic ability but about his basketball IQ. Usually it takes guys lots of time to defend like that in the NBA. Smart did it in his first season. Quite impressive...
I doubt the Celtics would give up on him for the #6, but if they would, I would consider it a steal.
Heady player, scrappy, aggressive and with a competetive mindset - I would love him on our roster. The thought of a player close to Tony Allen in a few years, but with a good enough jumpshot to keep his defender busy waters my mouth.

 

[Bricklayer]

Lillard-Matthews-Batum-Aldridge-Lopez - 1222 poss - 0.980 PPP against
Lillard-Afflalo-Batum-Aldridge-Lopez - 689 poss - 1.125 PPP against

The real difference in defensive ability is likely not as pronounced, but that chasm is huge.

The thing about the Afflalo proposals, including mine, is that they really aren't for the player that played last year. I know people don't like to hear that Ben sucked, but he mostly did. That's significant because Afflalo had similar numbers last year..

Afflalo proposals are all based on the idea that we might be getting the Afflalo of a few years back when he played for Karl in Denver. That's also why he might come -- after such a disastrously mediocre year to have in a contract year, he might see reuniting with George as a way to renew his career and rediscover his edge. Because in the early Karl years, rightly or wrongly he had a rep as a defender, and after the poor year its possible we might be able to get him for cheap. That's why in one of my proposals I thought we might be able to snag both he and Koufos in one free agent haul. Both guys with Karl connections who might want to come, and Affalo may have played himself down to no more than an MLE type contract while sexier names of the moment get paid.

Of course the risk is that at age 29/30 he's just an aging vet who's lost his edge and won't be getting it back. But the young Karl Afflalo could help us, and since we in fact have the same George Karl as a coach it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility he could bring it back out.

I'd still be a lot more excited about Matthews of course, except, achilles and all that.

 

[Gilles]

Afflalo hasn't even looked like he was trying on D, since turning up in Orlando. And Arron never was that hot in Denver defensively either - Iggy replacing Afflalo made Nuggets massively better on that end. I don't think, he's anything more than average defender at this point.

Looks like the outcome of a surgery on Achilles rupture is binary: either it's a complete success (most occasions) or back on the table you go (small percentage). It also seems like most of the damage comes in the form of reduced jumping ability, which had minor influence on Matthews' playing style up to this point anyway: % of FG taken at the rim was dropping consistently year after year and last season it was less than 15%. Key question is can doctors tell in July, if surgery was a success.

At this point, if Wes passes physical/gets ok from team doctors, would rather pay $12-14 million to him, rather than $6-8 million to Afflalo.

 

[funkykingston]

Apparently Payne was promised to be picked in the late lottery (attended Pacers workout and then shut down team meetings). Kings got him to come in, only because their pick is higher than the promise. He wasn't going to participate next to other PGs, so that he could be easily compared.
Maybe this whole shutting down was just a play to force teams in the middle of the lottery to take a look on their terms.

That could be. It could also go the other way. Maybe the Kings are having trouble getting top guys to come in (Winslow, Mudiay, WCS etc) and if they start looking like they'd draft Payne over them sending them further down the lottery it spurs those guys into coming to Sacramento.

 

[Kingster]

And that's the thing. MKG can be considered on some level to be a bust. He was the #2 pick in a relatively good draft class behind Anthony Davis and touted as an Iguodala type player who could defend, handle the ball, pass and had elite intangibles with the achilles heel being his shot. And he just never got to where a lot of people (myself included) thought he would. That said, he's still a 1o PPG scorer, a strong rebounder as a SF and still a good defender. And still a terrible shooter - he didn't even attempt a 3 this year. But I digress. The point is that he's a useful role player. And while I could be wrong I think that's likely where Winslow will end up, albeit a useful roleplayer who still does a few different things but who is a better shooter.

Mudiay would give the Kings a big, physical, attacking PG to pair with Collison. WCS is an elite defender who is a great frontcourt mate for Cousins. Winslow has an NBA ready body (he's built a lot like Lance Stephenson coming into the NBA) for wing with good athleticism as well. And while I don't see him becoming a star, he does a lot of things well and should be a very good role player.

I don't see those three being busts. I see them being good contributors and possibly more. In fact, it's the one with the most star potential (Mudiay) that I have the most questions about. But one of those three will be available. All three will come cheaper than Rubio or MKG and all three potentially fit with Cousins (and Gay and Collison for that matter) than either of the two vets. I get the appeal of trading for the known quantity vs gambling on the draft, but these particular known quantities aren't going to get the Kings where they need to be to keep Cousins.

MKG can be considered at some level to be a bust, but WCS is an elite defender who is a great frontcourt mate for Cousins? Whaa? I recall all kind of accolades being thrown about on MKG on this board prior to his draft. Pretty similar to what I'm hearing about WCS. Both defenders with little offense.

 

[sdballer]

MKG can be considered at some level to be a bust, but WCS is an elite defender who is a great frontcourt mate for Cousins? Whaa? I recall all kind of accolades being thrown about on MKG on this board prior to his draft. Pretty similar to what I'm hearing about WCS. Both defenders with little offense.

True but we can better afford to have a pf that has limited offense than a SF we can't start or a starting backcourt player that makes our shooting worse.

 

[Kingster]

True but we can better afford to have a pf that has limited offense than a SF we can't start or a starting backcourt player that makes our shooting worse.

That's an ugly choice. How about "None of the above"?

 

[sdballer]

That's an ugly choice. How about "None of the above"?

Maybe. I don't care as much if my PF can space the floor- not if he significantly can improve the d

 

[BMiller52]

I'd take Rubio because he's a good young PG who will only get better. People would complain about lack of shooting but you can still find a cheap stretch 4, and then I wouldn't be surprised if he made life easier on Ben since he would find him for easy shots. I wouldn't take MKG because I don't see him becoming an amazing offensive player and we can find a good wing defender for cheap. I'd rather just take Winslow or WCS than MKG because I think either of them would help our perimeter D more.

 

[upinsmoke]

This Roster flat out doesn't fit if we indeed are going to push the rock. Rudy might need to be moved because he's an iso player albeit a skilled one. Do you guys think Orlando even considers #5 for Rudy? We could take WCS and then package either 5 or 6 for a player Then use the stretch provision on Landry and we might be on the upswing with possibly a little cap flexibility. It would free up a lot of shots for Ben but it all depends on that hypothetical Orlando deal.

 

[Gilles]

Cuz likes Rudy a lot, so for a while it's a safe assumption, Rudy stays in Sacramento.

 

[dude12]

Rudy is flat out going to play more 4 this year, Karl said as much. Even Indiana is going to play P George at the 4 apparently. Maybe not for 30 minutes a game but its gonna happen. With that being said, I'd say no on MKG. Sac is going to need to keep Casspi and then sign another SF who can stretch it and play D.

If a coach is going to go to the stretch 4 that is en vogue now, Rudy can fit that role fairly well. You just need the other pieces as well. Whether you like that type of offense or not, it's gonna happen here. I don't see MKG as a fit.

 

[Bricklayer]

This Roster flat out doesn't fit if we indeed are going to push the rock. Rudy might need to be moved because he's an iso player albeit a skilled one. Do you guys think Orlando even considers #5 for Rudy? We could take WCS and then package either 5 or 6 for a player Then use the stretch provision on Landry and we might be on the upswing with possibly a little cap flexibility. It would free up a lot of shots for Ben but it all depends on that hypothetical Orlando deal.

You really can't trade away Cuz's #2 guy for a hope/prayer shot at a kid.

And people forget that communist Karl is a very recent phenomenon. This is a guy who had Iverson and Melo running alternating isos less than 10 years ago.

 

[The_Jamal]

For Rubio? Absolutely not. Guy continues to be one of the most overrated players in the NBA. He's a great defender and a great passer, but his utter lack of ability to score in any facet kills the other positives he brings to the game. You just need to have the ability to score from the PG position in today's NBA if you want to be a starter. Much less a star.

For MKG, I would do that deal in a heartbeat. He's the rare type of SF that would allow us to move Rudy to the PF and it actually be effective. Guy isn't just a good perimeter defender; he's a dominant one. Switch him onto Golden State or SA and he's getting just as much love as Kawhi and Draymond Green are. He's also a fantastic rebounder at SF. I also think he sees an offensive boost getting out of the offensive hell-hole that has plagued the Hornets the last few seasons. And somehow, dude is still just 21 years old.

I don't think he's a lost cause on offense either. He can't shoot worth a lick, but he also knows that and doesn't waste FGA trying. His 3.9 FTA/game and .444 FTR is elite, especially for a low usage guy and he shoots 70% from the line, which isn't bad. In comparison, Cuz, who gets to the line better than anyone not named James Harden, has a .509 FTR


Basically with MKG, you're getting a proven NBA elite defensive player who's still a kid and plenty of untapped offensive potential. That's 100% worth the 6th pick.

 

[The_Jamal]

And I'm fine with doing that, hence me constantly saying we should go after R Lopez/Asik/Wright/Koufas as well as Afflalo/Matthews.

MKG is just a poor fit. Can defend but our spacing will go to ****. Rubio I'd consider, but I'm not moving the 6th pick for him. Our starting 5 wasn't a big enough of an issue to waste the 6th pick on either of these two. If we're going to upgrade the 2, then really upgrade the 2. MKG upgrades one side of the ball while being horrible on the other. Rubio is an upgrade over DC in some respects, but his atrocious shooting and injury history don't make it a clear enough upgrade to burn the upside of WCS/Mudiay on.

The #6 for Jrue Holiday or Beldsoe would have me more interested and willing. I'd much prefer their fit and you still get the defense.

It's already complete garbage. I've been on the "we need spacing" train for years now, but if you got a chance at a guy like MKG who's already one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA at 21 years old, you take it. He's not even a lost cause on offense either; he just can't shoot. 52% TS is average, he's low usage (18%), he doesn't turn the ball over (9.9%), he's an excellent rebounder for a SF (14.4%) and he has a touch of playmaking ability from the wing position (8.8% Ast).

I wouldn't hesitate at this deal if offered. Shooting is the easiest thing to find in the NBA. Guys with MKG's skill-set at his age are not.

 

[Mike]

This Roster flat out doesn't fit if we indeed are going to push the rock. Rudy might need to be moved because he's an iso player albeit a skilled one. Do you guys think Orlando even considers #5 for Rudy? We could take WCS and then package either 5 or 6 for a player Then use the stretch provision on Landry and we might be on the upswing with possibly a little cap flexibility. It would free up a lot of shots for Ben but it all depends on that hypothetical Orlando deal.

At #5 the Magic have the potential to land a very good player. They could draft WCS to add the rim protection they need; add a stretch four in Porzingis; or add shooting in Winslow or Hezonja, either to replace Harris at SF if they don't match, or simply to strengthen their bench. I don't see them trading the pick for Rudy Gay. He might give them a 20 ppg player, but he doesn't fit their unselfish style of play. They would be better building around their core young talent, retaining Tobias Harris, and keeping their top five pick. And then using any cap space they have left to strengthen their bench.

You really con't trade away Cuz's #2 guy for a hope/prayer shot at a kid.

And people forget that communist Karl is a very recent phenomenon. This is a guy who had Iverson and Melo running alternating isos less than 10 years ago.

I don't see it happening, but it possible that our front office could consider trading away Rudy Gay if they felt it would make this team better long term. After all, the Grizzlies traded him to the Raptors and got better, and the Raptors traded him to us and got better. Granted the same may not happen if we trade him away, but it wouldn't surprise me to see this team trade him away if they felt it would make us better long term. I'm not convinced trading him away for a rookie would be the best option, but if the draft went this way:

#1. Towns - Timberwolves
#2. Okafor - Lakers
#3. Russell - 76ers
#4. Winslow- Knicks
#5. WCS - Magic
#6. Mudiay - Kings

In this scenario we would be losing a player that is more likely to help us "win now", but we would be acquiring two pieces that potentially could set us up long term. Mudiay, McLemore, WCS and Cousins is a decent quartet of young talent to build a starting line up around. We'd need to solve the SF problem, but we would have cap space this year and next year to acquire a player to step in and make a difference. We could even consider making a trade to acquire a SF. There are lots of ways we could strengthen the team to create an exciting and athletic starting line up.

That said, I don't see us trading away Rudy Gay.

 

[Bricklayer]

At #5 the Magic have the potential to land a very good player. They could draft WCS to add the rim protection they need; add a stretch four in Porzingis; or add shooting in Winslow or Hezonja, either to replace Harris at SF if they don't match, or simply to strengthen their bench. I don't see them trading the pick for Rudy Gay. He might give them a 20 ppg player, but he doesn't fit their unselfish style of play. They would be better building around their core young talent, retaining Tobias Harris, and keeping their top five pick. And then using any cap space they have left to strengthen their bench.



I don't see it happening, but it possible that our front office could consider trading away Rudy Gay if they felt it would make this team better long term. After all, the Grizzlies traded him to the Raptors and got better, and the Raptors traded him to us and got better. Granted the same may not happen if we trade him away, but it wouldn't surprise me to see this team trade him away if they felt it would make us better long term. I'm not convinced trading him away for a rookie would be the best option, but if the draft went this way:

#1. Towns - Timberwolves
#2. Okafor - Lakers
#3. Russell - 76ers
#4. Winslow- Knicks
#5. WCS - Magic
#6. Mudiay - Kings

In this scenario we would be losing a player that is more likely to help us "win now", but we would be acquiring two pieces that potentially could set us up long term. Mudiay, McLemore, WCS and Cousins is a decent quartet of young talent to build a starting line up around. We'd need to solve the SF problem, but we would have cap space this year and next year to acquire a player to step in and make a difference. We could even consider making a trade to acquire a SF. There are lots of ways we could strengthen the team to create an exciting and athletic starting line up.

That said, I don't see us trading away Rudy Gay.

One more time I have to point out that Cousins is not THAT young. Not like that anymore. All these kids coming in are of an entirely different generation. Cousins will be entering his 6th year now. He's a vet entering his prime years. Basically at the same point as when Webb first arrived for us. And you can, and we did, have a few kids around a guy at that stage to give you potential, but you need to vet up around him, and the kids can't be long term projects. If you have any plans on keeping Cousins you have to be winning by next year and advancing into the playoffs from that point on. You can't do that dumping established 20pt #2 scorers for 19yr olds.

 

[hrdboild]

Trading Rudy is an interesting idea on paper that would be worth considering except that he's bonded so well with DeMarcus. I would consider that option off the table for the time being. Maybe the idea gets floated at a later point if we're a playoff team and need to find a defensive upgrade at SF, but right now we need to be careful to avoid any big moves that could be perceived as another step backward. Trading Collison for comparable talent in the event that we draft Mudiay or sign Rondo would probably be acceptable. Trading McLemore or Stauskas for a veteran upgrade would probably be acceptable. Trading Rudy Gay for a rookie, probably not.

 

[Mike]

One more time I have to point out that Cousins is not THAT young. Not like that anymore. All these kids coming in are of an entirely different generation. Cousins will be entering his 6th year now. He's a vet entering his prime years. Basically at the same point as when Webb first arrived for us. And you can, and we did, have a few kids around a guy at that stage to give you potential, but you need to vet up around him, and the kids can't be long term projects. If you have any plans on keeping Cousins you have to be winning by next year and advancing into the playoffs from that point on. You can't do that dumping established 20pt #2 scorers for 19yr olds.

While I agree with what you're saying, the thing our front office needs to decide on is whether they think that Rudy Gay is a key piece to the puzzle. In his career to date he's been on two play off teams (2010-11, 2011-12) and played in the play offs once (2012). Arguably the reason behind the Grizzlies emergence was Rudolph and Gasol, and while he was traded to keep them under the luxury tax, they have continued to improve since he's left. The same can also be said for the Raptors who have become a better team.

Rudy Gay has become a more efficient and better player for us. He has a good relationship with Cousins, and as a duo they gel pretty good - great. So maybe he's finally found his home and the place he can achieve his true potential. But what if Karl values two high draft picks (eg Mudiay and WCS, Winslow and WCS etc) and their fit in his system over having Rudy Gay? What if he feels that the money we save on Rudy Gay's contract we can invest in a 3-and-D player (eg Carroll)?

Mudiay / McLemore / Carroll / WCS / Cousins

Now I'm not saying this is what I want, or that this is better than having Rudy Gay. But there is the potential for this team to move him if they feel they will become stronger and more competitive without him.

The other thing to bare in mind is that the deal doesn't necessarily have to be with Orlando. There are other teams we could deal Rudy Gay with. Again - I'm not sure if it would be the right thing to do, but, two teams have moved on from him and improved, so who's to say this team can't improve as long as they do the right deal?

 

[Mike]

Trading Rudy is an interesting idea on paper that would be worth considering except that he's bonded so well with DeMarcus. I would consider that option off the table for the time being. Maybe the idea gets floated at a later point if we're a playoff team and need to find a defensive upgrade at SF, but right now we need to be careful to avoid any big moves that could be perceived as another step backward. Trading Collison for comparable talent in the event that we draft Mudiay or sign Rondo would probably be acceptable. Trading McLemore or Stauskas for a veteran upgrade would probably be acceptable. Trading Rudy Gay for a rookie, probably not.

What if we traded Rudy Gay to acquire a veteran upgrade at PF, while using our #6 pick to add a SF (eg Winslow, Johnson etc)? Or acquired a high value young player for Rudy Gay, and used the cap space we save to sign a veteran that improves the balance of the line up?

In either scenario it could be argued trading Gay to create a better rounded line up to support Cousins could be the way forwards. But I'm like you, I don't see us trading him at this time.