Would you trade #6 for Rubio or Kidd Gilchrist?

Would you trade the #6 for Rubio or Kidd Gilchrist?

  • Yes for either

    Votes: 5 7.7%

  • Yes for Rubio, not for Kidd Gilchrist

    Votes: 3 4.6%

  • Yes for Kidd Gilchrist, not for Rubio

    Votes: 5 7.7%

  • No to either

    Votes: 34 52.3%

  • Only if Cauley-Stein is off the board

    Votes: 18 27.7%
  • Total voters
    65
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
So Chad Ford has today thrown out one of his vague "it is believed they will consider trading for right package" reports about Ricky Rubio. And I had earlier been pondering Michael Kidd Gilchrist on the theory that Charlotte needs to find offense and a star somehow. I consider those two musings, mine and Ford's, to be equally dubious, but nonetheless:

Positives: two good sized young players with passing skills and some of the best defenders at their positions. Rubio was the #5 pick and is still only 24. Kidd Gilchrist was the #2 pick and is still only 21. (comparatively Cauley Stein is 21/22 himself)
Negatives: cannot shoot/score, and likely never will. Both guys have been injury prone.

Karl has talked about wanting defensive stoppers on the perimeter, Vlade has talked about finding a Christie. Would you trade the #6 for one of these birds in the hand should they be available?
 
I wouldn't trade the #6 pick, but if they took a combo of Ben or Nik and JT I would to either.

Both players are too injury prone to trade the #6 pick.

If WCS is off the board, then that means Mudiay is probably there, which I would rather take than any of Rubio or MKG.
 
We cannot have a full time wing/pg with the current roster that cannot shoot. It won't work. Other changes would have to be made, for either of those players to fit.
 
Good question. I think the Kings need to take the best player available, with the focus being who will be the best player in 2 or 3 years. I wouldn't take WCS or cash out 6 for Rubio, because I think we're going to convey our pick to the Bulls in the summer of 2016 and then start over again in 2017 when DMC forces the issue before his walk year, so I'd be willing to take Portzingis or Winslow.

If the Kings are so focused on winning now that they'll draft WSC because he checks the most boxes right now, then I'd trade. Rubio or MKG plus something else make sense as assets because they are young and could be undervalued if they develop ... but as said above, their lack of shooting doesn't seem compatible for this roster.
 
Improving the perimeter defense is a MUST for us, so if WCS is off the board I would have to say this might just be the kind of necessary evil you have to put up with to move into the future.
 
If WCS is on the board at #6, then no I do not want either. To be honest, for this roster, as constructed (inability to shoot), neither of them are players I want, even with their defensive capabilities. I say this only because I'm thinking of Cousins. Who's he gonna kick out to? Is anyone really going to be concerned about MKG or Rubio shooting the 3? Cousins will never see the light of day again if either of those players are on the roster, as he will be double teamed 100% of the time. The only way this possibly can work with either of them is if we have a stretch 4 that can really shoot the rock or the next coming of Ray Allen in the lineup. We have neither. So definitely a negative on this one.
 
I don't want either player for the 6th pick.

In terms of the cap, Rubio starts his new contract next season at $12.7 million and it goes up from there. That means a few assets would have to go back to Minnesota. I don't see them wanting JT & Landry so it'd probably have to be one of those two and either Collison or one of those two PFs with the Kings just absorbing the rest and eliminating their cap room. MKG is only slated to make $5 million or so next season but it's also the last on his rookie deal. IMO unless you're trading for a star that you think you can resign it's always a bad idea to trade for a guy whose rookie deal is about to run out. It means you're likely overpaying to keep him next offseason or letting him walk for nothing.

In terms of fit on the court I don't think the Kings can afford to worsen their team shooting. Not for guys who aren't star players. Kidd-Gilchrist would be awful as a starting SG for this Kings team if Collison is still the PG and Gay the SF. Cousins would get no breathing room. And if he's not the starter why send off a valuable asset like the sixth pick in a strong draft for a backup swingman who can leave as a free agent next offseason instead of locking in a high value rookie contributor.

Rubio is a player I love watching but wouldn' t want on my team. Doubly so if that team is the Kings who already lack outside shooting and spacing for Cousins. People like to compare Rubio with Rondo but (1) Rondo was a terrible shooter but a better finisher inside and (2) Rondo played (at one point anyway) with a hell of a lot more fire. Rubio has amazing court vision and makes unbelievable passes as well as being fantastic in the pick & roll. But he can't shoot at all and can't finish inside. Moreover, while he's a good iso defender due to active feet, quick hands and good length as a PG, he doesn't deal with screens well at all and is a subpar team defender.

I think you go with WCS or Mudiay (or possibly Winslow) and then look for shooters/defenders on the cheap rather than spending significant assets to acquire role players.
 
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but last season we DID give up shooting from the 2... no way does bringing in MCW make our offense worse. Now are there better ways to skin the cat? hopefully but I really do not see this plethora of perimeter defenders out there available. But if some one has a better plan for bringing in top level perimeter defense AND improving our outside shooting at the same time I am all ears.
 
Bricklayer said:
This is of course the assumption made every year by every fan of every team. Alas, half of them will be flat wrong. And half of the half that aren't flat wrong will just have a roleplayer themselves.
Click to expand...

That's why good teams don't strike out in the draft. To me it's a poor excuse for a GM to look at the draft and be so afraid that they'll pick a bust that they instead settle for a middle of the road vet that doesn't push the team forward.
 
Bricklayer said:
This is of course the assumption made every year by every fan of every team. Alas, half of them will be flat wrong. And half of the half that aren't flat wrong will just have a roleplayer themselves.
Click to expand...

I know you are pushing this because of the cousins angle but I think there is a danger in getting too set in this perspective.

If you look back at the top 6 picks the last few years, I'd gladly take most of them (even the ones still developing) plus the extra pieces you can get due to rookie scale pay then trading it for one role player (especially ones that don't for needs).

Now, if someone can blow you away with a great deal that includes #6 and significantly improves our ability to win now, I'm all for it.

But these aren't those deals and it's not enough to just say "we can't wait".
 
The organizations job is to draft a guy who can get it done. If we start hitting on the draft each year, our situation improves, we have better players to play or to trade. I don't want us to keep saying that rookies need time. Some of thee rookies are contributing right away (at least on a small level). Take WCS or Winslow and you have a guy that can help defensively, take Mudiay and you have a guy who can be your backup PG right now and possibly more....right now. All have more upside to get better.
 
Peter_Gibbons said:
Why not just draft Justise Winslow and develop him into a new and improved Doug Christie type?
Click to expand...
HndsmCelt said:
more than a few mock drafts have Winslow going to NY at the 4th pick.
Click to expand...

And that's the thing. MKG can be considered on some level to be a bust. He was the #2 pick in a relatively good draft class behind Anthony Davis and touted as an Iguodala type player who could defend, handle the ball, pass and had elite intangibles with the achilles heel being his shot. And he just never got to where a lot of people (myself included) thought he would. That said, he's still a 1o PPG scorer, a strong rebounder as a SF and still a good defender. And still a terrible shooter - he didn't even attempt a 3 this year. But I digress. The point is that he's a useful role player. And while I could be wrong I think that's likely where Winslow will end up, albeit a useful roleplayer who still does a few different things but who is a better shooter.

Mudiay would give the Kings a big, physical, attacking PG to pair with Collison. WCS is an elite defender who is a great frontcourt mate for Cousins. Winslow has an NBA ready body (he's built a lot like Lance Stephenson coming into the NBA) for wing with good athleticism as well. And while I don't see him becoming a star, he does a lot of things well and should be a very good role player.

I don't see those three being busts. I see them being good contributors and possibly more. In fact, it's the one with the most star potential (Mudiay) that I have the most questions about. But one of those three will be available. All three will come cheaper than Rubio or MKG and all three potentially fit with Cousins (and Gay and Collison for that matter) than either of the two vets. I get the appeal of trading for the known quantity vs gambling on the draft, but these particular known quantities aren't going to get the Kings where they need to be to keep Cousins.
 
I might actually be tempted to do it for Rubio....however his shooting would hurt things and the team lacks shooting as it is. MKG is a lost cause IMO considering where he was drafted and I believe he is what he is at this point, which is a slasher and a phenomenal defender, but again....two guys who cannot spread the floor, which is what is necessary around Rudy and Cousins.
 
funkykingston said:
That's why good teams don't strike out in the draft. To me it's a poor excuse for a GM to look at the draft and be so afraid that they'll pick a bust that they instead settle for a middle of the road vet that doesn't push the team forward.
Click to expand...

even if that were true, ANY team can strike out in ANY draft, and we are faced with a very particular and very tight situation here. We're not fantasy drafting or saying we'll get them in the end over a 5yr or 10yr period. We've got a 1yr period. Variability over a 1yr period is immense.

And I'm kinda amused in a lot of ways -- we are all, well most, blatantly rooting for us to draft...a defensive roleplayer. 21/22yrs old. Nobody thinks WCS is going to be a star, our draft GOAL is to draft a defensive roleplayer. But then you turn it around and say, ok, now trade the pick, destined to be a defensive roleplayer, for an already established defensive roleplayer, and its giving up?

As far as not pushing us forward:

Michael Kidd Gilchrist had a huge -8.8 defensive on/off per 100 possessions this year (Cousins was at -7.6). He was 12th in the league in DRPM. If there was an NBA All Defense Third Team he would have made it (next 5 in voting were Gobert, LeBron, Westbrook, Bradley and MKG). He's emerged as an elite defender.

Ricky Rubio has twice been 2nd in the league in steals, carried a huge -8.4 defensive on/off per 100 (again Cousins was at -7.6) and led all PGs in DRPM this season. Last season he was 2nd amongst PGs to Bledsoe.

You would be lucky indeed to get that sort of defensive impact out of a draft pick.
 
Last edited:
I would not trade the 6th for either of these players. Neither would make the Kings better this year or next, compared to what we will get at 6th. One of these three should fall to us:

WCS: Best defender in the draft. He'll be a terrific P & R defender, a rim protector, and can defend man-to-man 3s, 4s and 5s. Great fit next to Cousins. His offense, with coaching, will improve to the point where IMHO he should be a 10-15 pt scorer (much more than put-backs and back door slams).

Winslow: will be a lock down defender and can defend 1s, 2s or 3s. I think he could play SG as well as SF. His shooting will continue to develop with practice and coaching and I think he could become an effective 3pt shooter. I think he could become a star, at the least a very very good player.

Mudiay: Will take longer to develop, but could become eventially the star PG. Big and strong, can get to the rim and finish. His shooting will also improve with practice and coaching.

GO KINGS!!!!!!!!!
 
Bricklayer said:
even if that were true, ANY team can strike out in ANY draft, and we are faced with a very particular and very tight situation here. We're not fantasy drafting or saying we'll get them in the end over a 5yr or 10yr period. We've got a 1yr period. Variability over a 1yr period is immense.

And I'm kinda amused in a lot of ways -- we are all, well most, blatantly rooting for us to draft...a defensive roleplayer. 21/22yrs old. Nobody thinks WCS is going to be a star, our draft GOAL is to draft a defensive roleplayer. But then you turn it around and say, ok, now trade the pick, destined to be a defensive roleplayer, for an already established defensive roleplayer, and its giving up?

As far as not pushing us forward:

Michael Kidd Gilchrist had a huge -8.8 defensive on/off per 100 possessions this year (Cousins was at -7.6). He was 12th in the league in DRPM. If there was an NBA All Defense Third Team he would have made it (next 5 in voting were Gobert, LeBron, Westbrook, Bradley and MKG). He's emerged as an elite defender.

Ricky Rubio has twice been 2nd in the league in steals, carried a huge -8.4 defensive on/off per 100 (again Cousins was at -7.6) and led all PGs in DRPM this season. Last season he was 2nd amongst PGs to Bledsoe.

You would be lucky indeed to get that sort of defensive impact out of a draft pick.
Click to expand...

I have to think you're being slightly disingenuous in order to make a point.

Yes, if viewed in a vacuum we could say that MKG is a great defender and Rubio a very good defender (I'd argue that point but will concede it for now to focus on the larger point) and it is definitely not an absolute certainty that WCS will be a very good or great defender on the next level.

But looking at the reality of the Kings situation gives a very different picture.

Trading for Rubio would have to mean giving up the sixth pick and either Collison or Thompson as well as most of the Kings caproom. Assuming of course they wouldn't take Carl "The Perpetual Injury" Landry instead of DC or JT. So the Kings would get a bump in defense at the PG spot, a big increase in passing from the PG spot, a big decrease in shooting from the PG spot and the loss of either the starting PF or backup PG with no more money to fill those holes and the already existing ones. And that's before we consider whether a ball dominant, best in transition PG who makes the Kings spacing worse is the kind of piece that will convince Boogie to stay.

MKG wouldn't take up most of the Kings caproom for this season but question with him is where he plays. Either he's a bench player, the starting SG or the starting SF in a Nellyball nightmare that has Gay at PF and a non shooting SF on the wings. As the starting SG I love the defensive upgrade but noone would ever complain again about Ben's outside shooting. MKG took zero threes in the 55 games he played in last year. ZERO. So the logical spot is as the designated bench defender. I wouldn't mind that but it amps up the pressure to bring in bench scorers/shooters to the worst bench in the NBA last season. Is having a bench stopper worth the sixth pick? Hard to say. But the downside is that if MKG doesn't do well for the Kings then you traded an asset for little return and if DOES do well then the Kings are on the hook for resigning him in the offseason that the salary cap explodes or risk losing him for nothing. Not a great gamble either way.

On the other hand WCS potentially gives the Kings a starter at PF (in time) who doesn't cost any other assets or caproom and who would push JT to the bench in his best role as a 3rd big and who provides the athletic shotblocking presence that you've been beating the drum for as loud as any Kings fan. Let's not pretend a good PG defender or a lockdown wing carries the same value as a rim protector and weakside defender who is also athletic enough to be a top tier defender of the P&R. WCS may be projected as a defensive roleplayer, but he's exactly the defensive roleplayer the Kings need while also having the best price tag of the three options.
 
i consider Kidd if WCS is off the board. Whatever becomes this 6th pick im hell bent on it bringing a strong defensive increase
 
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist has one year left on his rookie contract so he'll be a restricted free agent after this season. Why would you give up any assets at all for him when you can probably go out and get him next year if you really want to? If we're swapping bench players that's one thing. Maybe they need PF depth and we want to shave a year of JT or Landry off our salary cap. But for the #6 overall pick? No way. We're losing more than we're gaining in that scenario. Yes we need to add talent and defensive talent in particular, but we can't keep trading away the few assets we have for pennies on the dollar and expect that to make the roster better. Ideally we need to keep adding talent without taking anything away.
 
You take the rookie at 6 and you take the cost controlled contract....if Mudiay is there, we may have a long term answer at PG. WCS, Winslow or Mudiay and their rookie contracts are no-brainers at 6.
 
I'm hesitant on MKG. He'll be on his final year, and even though he's a great defender, he still can't shoot. I think Winslow can at the very least be MKG. Winslow is already a much better shooter than MKG right now.

With the Wolves, I'd want K-Mart and Dieng back while sending Landry and Nik. Reasoning? Rubio will take up all of our cap space and we'd have 0 flexibility for free agents.

At #6 take a much needed WCS. Rubio is a nice player but his contract kills us for this season
 
I'm looking at this as a 2 year progression. Take WCS, Winslow or Mudiay. Sign a FA such as Mathews. I'm not opposed to keeping Ben and Stauskas either. Start keeping your young guys. We can't address all of our needs in 1 year.

If we were to wind up with Mudiay and signs a guy like Mathews along with Collison and Ben/Stauskas that is a solid backcourt. I'd hold onto Casspi. I think we can challenge for the last playoff spot.

Next year address the PF position......or if we drafted WCS, we address the other areas. I just think with the rookie pick and a good FA signing, we can put a good product on the floor.
 
Nope, not giving up the 6th for either. I would consider going after Rubio if it was a trade centered around Ben/JT or Nik/JT, even add DC to that, then use our pick on WCS. If it's not WCS, then I'm taking Mudiay and running out a DC/Mudiay PG duo and looking for another big either through trade or free agency.

But there's too much upside at a much lower cost with WCS/Mudiay than taking on Rubio or MKG.

I do understand the "win now" argument based around Cuz but I also by and large have considered that will have to come from free agency and the trade market. But I'm not burning the #6 pick in this draft on either of those two. Since we have a good pick, I'm fine looking at and considering upside/star potential with it. Stretch Landry and use that cap space to go after a big(Asik/R Lopez/Wright/Koufas) and Afflalo/Matthews in free agency.

There's risk involved in the draft, there's also risk involved in Rubio and his injury history, or his atrocious shooting and what that means when he doesn't have the ball. But in general this pick is just one tool to improving the roster. I think there's too much attention focused on it. I consider it a bonus I wasn't planning on having. Our starting 5 was pretty damn good last year. Get another defensive big through free agency, get a better SG or a couple 3&D guys(Belinelli), get a top prospect in this draft who helps our bench near-term and higher upside longer term and that too works. But this pick isn't going to turn around our roster. It was always going to be one tool of a few needed to turn this thing around.
 
Lawson >>>Rubio and a no to both

If it's MKG and the potential of Noah Vonleh for 6th pick + something else we can talk
 
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