Worst SG play in Sacramento Kings history?

[Bricklayer]

Quite the histrionic claim. But our SG play this season has been enough to throw one into histrionics.

Before the game yesterday I started a stats thread, and began it with a random muse/stat I had stumbled across, showing how Ben and Marcus had put up almost identical stats thus far in the season. Then watching them get slaughtered one more time last night I was pondering what to say in the Grades writeup and it suddenly occurred to me that I did not know how to complete the sentence "the worst our SGs have looked since...." And it got me thinking. This is the 29th year of Sacramento Kings basketball. We have always been a small/skill oriented franchise. We have always had better little guys than we had big guys (with the notable and non-coincidental 6 year run with CWebb). Is this the worst the SG position has been in Kings history?

Consider:

SG #1: McLemore 25.2min 9.1pts (.351 .341 .778) 3.2reb 1.0ast 0.8stl 0.2blk 1.1TO
SG #2: MThornton 25.4min 8.5pts (.353 .282 .800) 3.0reb 1.1ast 0.9stl 0.2blk 0.5TO

Last 3 games (notable since that was when shots may have just become tighter):
BM:
34min 1-7FG 3pts
33min 1-8FG 4pts
27min 1-6FG 4pts
MT
24min 0-4FG 1pt
34min 4-11FG 11pts
21min 1-7FG 3pts

Ben McLemore is shooting .306 in December.
Marcus Thornton is shooting .314 in December.

And they are getting annihilated on defense.

Now consider the Sacramento Kings prior history at that position:
2012-13: Evans (15.2ppg .478) + Thornton
2011-12: Thornton (18.7 .438) + Evans/Garcia
2010-11: Beno (13.7ppg .500) + Evans (interchangeable) + Thornton (after trade)
2009-10: Beno (12.9ppg .493) + Evans (interchangeable) + Martin (before trade)
2008-09: Martin (24.6ppg .420) + Garcia
2007-08: Martin (23.7ppg .456) + Salmons/Garcia
2006-07: Martin (20.2ppg .473) + Salmons/Garcia
2005-06: Wells (13.6ppg .463) + Martin
2004-05: Mobley (17.8ppg .440) + Christie (before trade) + BJax/Mo Evans/Martin
2003-04: Christie (10.1ppg .461) +BJax/Peeler
2002-03: Christie (9.4ppg .479) +JJackson
2001-02: Christie (12.0ppg .460) +BJax
2000-01: Christie (12.3ppg .395) + Barry
1999-00: Anderson (10.8ppg .391) + Barry
1998-99: Abdul-Wahad (9.3ppg .435) + Maxwell/Barry
1997-98: Richmond (23.2ppg .445) + Abdul-Wahad/Abdul-Rauf
1996-97: Richmond (25.9ppg .454) + Abdul-Rauf/Gamble
1995-96: Richmond (23.1ppg .447) + Marciulionis
1994-95: Richmond (22.8ppg .446) + Williams/Brown
1993-94: Richmond (23.4ppg .445) + Williams/LSmith
1992-93: Richmond (21.9ppg .474) + Williams/Brown
1991-92: Richmond (22.5ppg .468) + Hopson
1990-91: Mays (14.3ppg .406) + Hansen
1989-90: Ainge (17.9ppg .438) + Del Negro/Pressley
1988-89: Pressley (12.3ppg .439) + Berry + Ainge (after trade)
1987-88: Theus (21.6ppg .470) +McGee/DSmith
1986-87: DSmith (16.6ppg .446) +EJohnson
1985-86:Woodson (15.6ppg .475) +EJohnson


I highlighted in red the only other three years I thought were even in the ballpark. Ugly transitional years . And yet still, as bad as they were more productive years with Bench Mob help and well...maybe the complete disaster of the 4 draft picks/Mays year might be ballpark. Maybe.

Basically we've been:
Reggie/EJ --> transition -->Richmond--> transition-->Christie-->transiton-->Martin-->Evans-->in painful transition now

 

[Entity]

Tell me brick is it to early to write Ben off? I know he isn't as untouchable now as thought before the season.

 

[Glenn]

Save this for an end of the year comparison. It's interesting and a point I made elsewhere is that MLM will get no shots if he starts with the present lineup. I have no idea what is going on with MT but 20 years from now when he is loaded with money, he probably won't care.

 

[Glenn]

Tell me brick is it to early to write Ben off? I know he isn't as untouchable now as thought before the season.

MLM has no role whatsoever in a starting lineup of IT, Gay, and Cuz. He will not develop, assuming he can, if things are left as they are and I assume they will NOT be left this way. Put MLM on the bench and waste MT as a starter.

 

[Bricklayer]

Tell me brick is it to early to write Ben off? I know he isn't as untouchable now as thought before the season.

Yes too early at his age.

Not I think too early to write him off as a viable starter anytime soon though. The hope would be the Kevin Martin hope -- Martin looked bad his rookie year. But the thing was he did not need to play his rookie year. We had Doug, then we had Mobley. Kevin could suck in garbagetime and it did not hurt us. Wasn't until midseason the next year when Bonzi got hurt that he finally clicked on. But Ben has been thrown out on the big stage to suck in public and really hurt us in return.

 

[Entity]

Would you advocate trading him for the right Doug Christie type fit ala jimmy butler or lance Stephenson. Or should the focus be on Thornton. Just that contract not sure of the interest is there.

 

[ESP47]

MLM has no role whatsoever in a starting lineup of IT, Gay, and Cuz. He will not develop, assuming he can, if things are left as they are and I assume they will NOT be left this way. Put MLM on the bench and waste MT as a starter.

His role is to do what he's supposed to be able to do best and that is shoot. At this point he's not even able to do that. It doesn't matter if he has a role or not. If he goes 1 for 7 every night with 5 of those being wide open shots, then he's just not a good player.

 

[ESP47]

Would you advocate trading him for the right Doug Christie type fit ala jimmy butler or lance Stephenson. Or should the focus be on Thornton. Just that contract not sure of the interest is there.

Yeah you do that in a heartbeat but the Bulls and Pacers would just laugh at us if we even called and asked.

 

[Bricklayer]

Would you advocate trading him for the right Doug Christie type fit ala jimmy butler or lance Stephenson. Or should the focus be on Thornton. Just that contract not sure of the interest is there.

Tell me what we are about right now and I could better answer that question. If we approached Boston about Rondo and they demanded Ben as part of the package would I listen? Yes. Would I trade him for Thabo Sefalosha? No. But the key Is what we are trying to get done here. If the sweet spot of the rebuild is somewhere between Cuz (23) and Gay (27), young vets ready to win, then you consider anything that furthers that. If the sweet spot is beteen Cuz (23) and Ben (19), young guys who don't have a clue, then you don't.

Its a different calculation than for DWill who is looking like the young vet ready to win right now with efficient play. If you're trying to get this thing going and get Cuz up into the winning column by next year, Ben might not be ready to help.

 

[Entity]

Tell me what we are about right now and I could better answer that question. If we approached Boston about Rondo and they demanded Ben as part of the package would I listen? Yes. Would I trade him for Thabo Sefalosha? No. But the key Is what we are trying to get done here. If the sweet spot of the rebuild is somewhere between Cuz (23) and Gay (27), young vets ready to win, then you consider anything that furthers that. If the sweet spot is beteen Cuz (23) and Ben (19), young guys who don't have a clue, then you don't.

Its a different calculation than for DWill who is looking like the young vet ready to win right now with efficient play. If you're trying to get this thing going and get Cuz up into the winning column by next year, Ben might not be ready to help.

Good question. I'd like to pick PDA brain right now to set the direction he envisions. Is gay in the plans? Is he a future bargaining chip to get someone else or draft picks. I guess the hardest part is we are looking forthe now because we have been sitting in a cest pool for 7 years. Maybe we should relax and just sit back and wait fil next year again.

 

[Bricklayer]

Good question. I'd like to pick PDA brain right now to set the direction he envisions. Is gay in the plans? Is he a future bargaining chip to get someone else or draft picks. I guess the hardest part is we are looking forthe now because we have been sitting in a cest pool for 7 years. Maybe we should relax and just sit back and wait fil next year again.

If nothing else its pretty clear that's the last thing this front office is interested in doing.

 

[PurpleHaze]

Ben McLemore has hit rookie wall like so many do. He'll probably get beyond it faster than most because Malone is likely to stick with him no matter after throwing rook into the fire with a schooling burn. For the record he's 20 years old and will be 21 in two months. I don't think it's time at all to give up on him the way now giving up on MT is easy (except for his contract) or giving up on Fredette is just plain NBA reality. At present Kings backcourt starters and depth is a problem to say the least. A trade needs to be made soon for an Andre Miller or Beno Udrih or other vet fill in - possible starter. If a Rondo can be brought in that's huge starter upgrade one can only dream of. I realize these few options mentioned are all PGs as I think putting IT back as primary bench sparkplug is still best way for Kings to proceed for now.

 

[Entity]

Rondo would be nice and including our draft pick could go a long way in getting him. But that pick is a problem considering Cleveland has partial rights to it. I have sat a stared at trade machine for hours at a possible Boston trade for rondo. Several work but would they do it and how much would it hamstring our bench. Mt and Isaiah and another piece would have to be included and that would leave you with jimmer and ray as your backcourt backups. And if you include JT then again you are stuck there also. Then rondo is still injured so there is that.

Jarret jack is possible for mt and hope he could play a combo role. He is a good defender but a 4 year contract

 

[gunks]

He has beautiful shot mechanics, insane athleticism, and is a hard worker. Ben is going to be fine. It just might not be until next season that we actually see him as a positive on the court.

Way too early to write the kid off. I still think he's going to reach his potential (deadly 3rd option, not a star by any means - but a valuable player).

 

[Entity]

Rubio?

 

[Rose2Thomas]

Would you advocate trading him for the right Doug Christie type fit ala jimmy butler or lance Stephenson. Or should the focus be on Thornton. Just that contract not sure of the interest is there.

Most of us Bulls fans love Jimmy Butler. Pretty sure the front office and Thibbodeau do too. If McLemore seemed good enough to warrant trading for him, Kings wouldn't want to trade him in the first place.

 

[ockingsfan]

I thought this was another "We need Jimmer to play" Thread.

Way too early to write MLM off. He needs too slow down his play. He's trying to DUNK everything or shoot long distance every time he shoots. He needs to take some confidence boosting layups and mid range shots to fall and stop trying to make the highlight reel each time he shoots. Give the kid some time and I think he will develop into a quality starter in 2-3 years.

Easy to second guess now, but wouldn't it of been better to have kept Tyreke at SG and drafted Trey Burke at PG??? And then we trade for Rudy Gay at SF and we would be in pretty good shape right now. We would of had

PG Trey Burke
SG Tyreke Evans
C DMC
SF Rudy Gay
PF Jason Thompson.

But, sigh, I digress...

 

[kingsnation]

Fantastic post Brick. Got me to post for the first time this season.

IMO, Ben's still a keeper. Not even 2 months in to his career is too soon to make a decision on him. He's still adjusting, Rookie coach still adjusting, new rotation players still adjusting. Lots of stuff going on. He's just going to get better though.

MT on the other hand, we know this is who he is. Definitely ready to move him.

 

[kingsnation]

I thought this was another "We need Jimmer to play" Thread.

Way too early to write MLM off. He needs too slow down his play. He's trying to DUNK everything or shoot long distance every time he shoots. He needs to take some confidence boosting layups and mid range shots to fall and stop trying to make the highlight reel each time he shoots. Give the kid some time and I think he will develop into a quality starter in 2-3 years.

Easy to second guess now, but wouldn't it of been better to have kept Tyreke at SG and drafted Trey Burke at PG??? And then we trade for Rudy Gay at SF and we would be in pretty good shape right now. We would of had

PG Trey Burke
SG Tyreke Evans
C DMC
SF Rudy Gay
PF Jason Thompson.

But, sigh, I digress...

Well, I'm not sure Gay would've been available unless we got rid of Reke.

 

[rainmaker]

I find it interesting MLM appeared to be turning the corner somewhat, at least playing better and scored 14 points or more in 5 of 6 games leading up to the trade, and the three games since Vasquez has been moved and IT took over, he's scored 3, 4 and 4 points on a combined 3-21 shooting.

I don't know how much of an impact IT vs Vasquez is having, but it appears to be a factor.

 

[Entity]

Most of his shots are bail out passes. It isn't looking at him and didn't look to gay much last night it's cousins or himself for the most part which is why cousins had 5 assist he kept getting doubled and passed it out to them

 

[Glenn]

I find it interesting MLM appeared to be turning the corner somewhat, at least playing better and scored 14 points or more in 5 of 6 games leading up to the trade, and the three games since Vasquez has been moved and IT took over, he's scored 3, 4 and 4 points on a combined 3-21 shooting.

I don't know how much of an impact IT vs Vasquez is having, but it appears to be a factor.

It's the way I have been looking at it. It's why I want Ben sent to the bench where the pressure is off and a pg, if we get one, might look in his direction periodically. IT #1 isn't the best at passing and #2 even if he caught the passing bug, he'd toss it to Cuz or Gay as well he should.

 

[Entity]

Maybe they thought ben was a little better than this on defense when they drafted him

 

[Uncia03]

I find it interesting MLM appeared to be turning the corner somewhat, at least playing better and scored 14 points or more in 5 of 6 games leading up to the trade, and the three games since Vasquez has been moved and IT took over, he's scored 3, 4 and 4 points on a combined 3-21 shooting.

I don't know how much of an impact IT vs Vasquez is having, but it appears to be a factor.

Yep this is the issue. I was the one having to closely monitor Ben in IT's first start.
And in the 18.5 minutes that he played in the 1st and 3rd quarters with the starting line-up (Cousins/Williams/IT) in place he got a total of 2 shots. In the first quarter he didn't get his first scoring opportunity until the 4:30 minute mark, which means he was just out there on the offensive end hoping that someone would let him touch the ball, and if they did, that it would be in position to score.
Then what happens...?
He forces it when he gets in during the 2nd quarter because he got no touches in the 1st quarter...and the forces don't go in or look very good.

It looked as if he was getting frozen out of the offense and from the way he played later, it looked as if he felt he was getting frozen out as well.

It's going to be up to his teammates to get him the ball in scoring position and it's going to be up to Malone to make sure that happens. I like the way he hustles, rebounds, and plays energy basketball, but he's supposed to be a good shooter, so if you aren't taking advantage of that then there is a problem because his defense is currently a work-in-progress. I would be perfectly OK if we brought in a better SG who would then let Ben slide back to the bench, or if we brought in a more pass-first PG and let Ben get most of his minutes with that PG in the hopes that the PG would keep him involved.

 

[rainmaker]

Yep this is the issue. I was the one having to closely monitor Ben in IT's first start.
And in the 18.5 minutes that he played in the 1st and 3rd quarters with the starting line-up (Cousins/Williams/IT) in place he got a total of 2 shots. In the first quarter he didn't get his first scoring opportunity until the 4:30 minute mark, which means he was just out there on the offensive end hoping that someone would let him touch the ball, and if they did, that it would be in position to score.
Then what happens...?
He forces it when he gets in during the 2nd quarter because he got no touches in the 1st quarter...and the forces don't go in or look very good.

It looked as if he was getting frozen out of the offense and from the way he played later, it looked as if he felt he was getting frozen out as well.

I haven't concentrated on him too much but I have noticed his movement isn't where it was prior to the trade. He was running his defender off screens and running to a spot with the purpose of receiving the ball. He knew when a play was designed and he was an option. The last three game there's been much more standing around from him. He's a guy who plays off movement yet of course the catch 22 is why move if no one is looking for you? I see that as being an issue.

I don't remember any plays the last three games where IT had the ball up top and we ran a specific play to run MLM off screens and get him a shot, nor do I remember IT penetrating and kicking to an open MLM. It's a problem that IT seems more intent on getting himself going than others. Yes, he'll run a play for Cuz or Gay, but if it's not there he's looking to attack. What he's not doing is looking to create easy baskets for any of Cuz/Gay/MLM and to get them going. Even Cuz/Gay yesterday, their opportunities were mostly iso's. Easy looks weren't created for them.

At the same time, until this is worked out MLM needs to focus more on defense and the glass. Whether he gets touches on offense, he has potential to help us in those two areas every night if he picks it up. Needs to get in the film room. I do think the patience with him will pay off though. Klay Thompson went through very similar struggles until about month three in his rookie campaign.

 

[Uncia03]

I haven't concentrated on him too much but I have noticed his movement isn't where it was prior to the trade. He was running his defender off screens and running to a spot with the purpose of receiving the ball. He knew when a play was designed and he was an option. The last three game there's been much more standing around from him. He's a guy who plays off movement yet of course the catch 22 is why move if no one is looking for you? I see that as being an issue.

I don't remember any plays the last three games where IT had the ball up top and we ran a specific play to run MLM off screens and get him a shot, nor do I remember IT penetrating and kicking to an open MLM. It's a problem that IT seems more intent on getting himself going than others. Yes, he'll run a play for Cuz or Gay, but if it's not there he's looking to attack. What he's not doing is looking to create easy baskets for any of Cuz/Gay/MLM and to get them going. Even Cuz/Gay yesterday, their opportunities were mostly iso's. Easy looks weren't created for them.

At the same time, until this is worked out MLM needs to focus more on defense and the glass. Whether he gets touches on offense, he has potential to help us in those two areas every night if he picks it up. Needs to get in the film room. I do think the patience with him will pay off though. Klay Thompson went through very similar struggles until about month three in his rookie campaign.

In the 'movement' portion of your post you are absolutely correct. In that first game he didn't move very much at all when you consider how much he was moving with-out the ball prior. At the time I didn't know if that was on him or on the coach. A lot of off-the-ball movement is great if the team and especially the primary ball-handler knows that is what you're going to be doing and the team is setting up screens to get the mover open to receive the ball in catch-and-shoot situations.
I wondered at the time if Malone had told Ben not to do so much moving around because he wanted to keep the offensive sets 'simple'. I guess my thoughts were that if Ben was expected to run a lot and he wasn't doing it that Malone would just pull him from the game, and since he didn't run much from the start and still got 30+ minutes then it was more of a coach change than a player not wanting to move.

But regardless of the reason for it, Ben's movement has been lacking and therefore his shots are the easy catch-and-shoot that we'd like to see.

I also agree with your assessment of the other aspects of the game. He is an energy/hustle guy and so he should be helping on the boards and with his athleticism will hopefully get better on the defensive end.

 

[VF21]

If Ben is going to avoid being in the dubious company of the worst SG in Kings fan history, he's got to get some help. He needs a guard out there that will complement his skill set, and that's sadly lacking right now.

Most of all, though, Ben needs time. He's 20 - not a Kobe Bryant 20 or a Lebron James 20 or even a Tony Parker 20. He's more like a Gerald Wallace 20. He's got skills, but he's gonna need time to develop them. He's got speed but he's got to learn to control it, to use it to his advantage.

I seriously hope we can find a utility guard for the short-term to step in and play at the 1/2 enough to give Ben a chance to walk before we need him to run.

 

[PurpleHaze]

Ben McLemore is 20 and will be 21 in two months. But for sure he's still really young and raw talent worth developing.

 

[VF21]

Ben McLemore is 20 and will be 21 in two months. But for sure he's still really young and raw talent worth developing.

Oops. Fixed. Well, my point is still entirely valid.

 

[pshn80]

Instead of worst, how about subpar play at SG from both Ben and Marcus resulting in sub par play at the position all the time. To the point where it is unacceptable at this point in time and requiring the infusion of a new player at the position now?