Worst SG play in Sacramento Kings history?

[Chubbs]

I'm starting to get the feeling that putting IT in the starting lineup is destroying the development of Ben, as was feared. The numbers are glaring since IT stepped in. This whole season was about developing Ben to me. It has ground to a stop.

His development had been pointing up (5 of 6 with 14 plus, 11 total in the 3 since). IT is helping it bottom out. Oh, and while I tend to blame Thornton for his own shortcomings, he'd also been in unfortunate position of playing with IT off the bench. Landry will be in the same spot, fighting for the ball with IT. That's why I called Landry redundant.

Let's call it BIT and SIT. Before IT, since IT. Let's throw a silent s in there and make it ****. Cause that's what it's been to Ben Mclemore.

I sense a trend.

Wasn't hard to see coming.

 

[KingMilz]

I'm starting to get the feeling that putting IT in the starting lineup is destroying the development of Ben, as was feared. The numbers are glaring since IT stepped in.

His development had been pointing up. IT is helping it bottom out. Oh, and while I tend to blame Thornton for his own shortcomings, he'd also been in unfortunate position of playing with IT off the bench.

I sense a trend.

Wasn't hard to see coming.

Is there anything IT is not to blame for with what's wrong with the team? So the fact Mclemore gets torched on defence and looks super nervous while bricking wide open shots and missing wide open dunks is Isaiah Thomas fault.......we may as well blame Isaiah for Tyreke not developing a jump shot or Thomas Robinson being a scrub. Outside the Brooklyn game if you look at every single one of our other wins it's been Cousins/Thomas playing well but yet all the 15 losses everyone on here just blames Isaiah lol I mean come on......

The forum literally ignores anything negative Cousins does but dissects the smallest things Thomas/Thornton or any other role player does.

 

[Chubbs]

Is there anything IT is not to blame for with what's wrong with the team? So the fact Mclemore gets torched on defence and looks super nervous while bricking wide open shots and missing wide open dunks is Isaiah Thomas fault.......Outside the Brooklyn game if you look at every single one of our other wins it's been Cousins/Thomas playing well but yet all the 15 losses everyone on here just blames Isaiah lol I mean come on......

I'm taking about the development of Ben McLemore as a scorer. I'm not talking about wins and losses. And I'm not talking about Ben's defense, which is clearly a major major issue. IT is right there with him struggling on d though.

All people see is points scored. IT should be basing a good game for himself on how well his teammates play. So should everyone else. That's what a PG is supposed to do. When a 20 year old rookie who needs his pg to get him shots suddenly stops touching the ball cause his pg is jacking up 20, absolutely that is the pgs fault. Pgs get others involved. That's their PRIMARY job.

 

[KingMilz]

I'm taking about the development of Ben McLemore as a scorer. I'm not talking about wins and losses. And I'm not talking about Ben's defense, which is clearly a major major issue. IT is right there with him struggling on d though.

All people see is points scored. IT should be basing a good game for himself on how well his teammates play. So should everyone else. That's what a PG is supposed to do. When a 20 year old rookie who needs his pg to get him shots suddenly stops touching the ball cause his pg is jacking up 20, absolutely that is the pgs fault. Pgs get others involved. That's their PRIMARY job.

Ben has been getting open looking all year he's just bricking cause he's not confident and nervous that has nothing to do with Isaiah, the same thing occurred with Vasquez if anything Ben's best games were playing off the bench WITH Isaiah.

 

[Glenn]

Ben has been getting open looking all year he's just bricking cause he's not confident and nervous that has nothing to do with Isaiah, the same thing occurred with Vasquez if anything Ben's best games were playing off the bench WITH Isaiah.

This is exactly where I would like both of them if only we had another pg. It would take the pressure off Ben and put IT in a position where he wouldn't need to even think of passing to someone as the real scorers are starters. As it is, our team has been painted into a corner where we can start no other PG and people would puke if we started MT.

 

[Chubbs]

Ben has been getting open looking all year he's just bricking cause he's not confident and nervous that has nothing to do with Isaiah, the same thing occurred with Vasquez if anything Ben's best games were playing off the bench WITH Isaiah.

Well that's just completely not true.

The stretch from 11/24 to 12/7 was his best stretch. He's going to struggle some nights with or without IT. I get that. But it's bottomed out when it had been trending up.

You'll never see that and that's ok. Keep rooting for Mighty Mouse as he leads us to another 28-32 win season, where you give him all the credit for every win and ignore the 50 losses.

 

[KingMilz]

Well that's just completely not true.

The stretch from 11/24 to 12/7 was his best stretch. He's going to struggle some nights with or without IT. I get that. But it's bottomed out when it had been trending up.

You'll never see that and that's ok. Keep rooting for Mighty Mouse as he leads us to another 28-32 win season, where you give him all the credit for every win and ignore the 50 losses.

Really? Cause last time I checked Cousins was the franchise guy so he's the one leading to those win totals, that last loss was not on him neither was the Jazz one both were on Cousins for a). getting into needless foul trouble and b). Not adjusting at either end against the Suns. Thomas had minimal impact in the last two losses.

But yeah lets blame Isaiah for Ben's mental issues, without Isaiah I'm sure we would be a 82-0 team lol. Ben and both Marcus Thornton are mentally soft that's why they are both struggling.

 

[Uncia03]

Is there anything IT is not to blame for with what's wrong with the team? So the fact Mclemore gets torched on defence and looks super nervous while bricking wide open shots and missing wide open dunks is Isaiah Thomas fault.......we may as well blame Isaiah for Tyreke not developing a jump shot or Thomas Robinson being a scrub. Outside the Brooklyn game if you look at every single one of our other wins it's been Cousins/Thomas playing well but yet all the 15 losses everyone on here just blames Isaiah lol I mean come on......

The forum literally ignores anything negative Cousins does but dissects the smallest things Thomas/Thornton or any other role player does.

To me it's all about roles and fit. I don't think there is anyone here who is upset with IT's play, because IT's play this year has been better than most anyone would have given him credit for.
The issue is with the role and the fit and his role/fit screams scoring spark-plug off the bench. It does not, nor has it ever screamed pass-first defensive set-up guy to run the offense and make sure that players (especially Cousins) gets the ball in good position.

I liken it to Kevin Martin. At one point he was our #1 option and putting up 20+ points per game. And though some people loved what he did, others were frustrated because his role/fit wasn't as the #1 option if a team was going to be successful. He would be a fantastic 3rd option for a good team. I really liked Martin and what he was doing on the court but understood the limitations that he had in his game.
In fact, wouldn't Martin be a great SG for us now? I think that his numbers would be lower but his ability to help the team now would be much greater than when he had to be our #1 option.

So the frustration is that at the moment we don't have a PG who is better than IT who can force IT back into the role that he is most suited to and comfortable with. And this will continue to be a problem until PDA can do something about it.

 

[Chubbs]

Really? Cause last time I checked Cousins was the franchise guy so he's the one leading to those win totals, that last loss was not on him neither was the Jazz one both were on Cousins for a). getting into needless foul trouble and b). Not adjusting at either end against the Suns. Thomas had minimal impact in the last two losses.

But yeah lets blame Isaiah for Ben's mental issues, without Isaiah I'm sure we would be a 82-0 team lol.

I don't understand this need to blame players for losses. That's not what I'm doing I don't think, but every IT apologist just can't handle any criticism of him without blowing a gasket.

It's a team. It's a worse team with IT starting. That's the gist of it.

 

[KingMilz]

I don't understand this need to blame players for losses. That's not what I'm doing I don't think, but every IT apologist just can't handle any criticism of him without blowing a gasket.

It's a team. It's a worse team with IT starting. That's the gist of it.

Based on 3 games this season?

 

[Chubbs]

Based on 3 games this season?

No, not at all. we've tried this before. It didn't work last year, and with the way the team is, I think it works even less well now.

But fine, we can wait another 10 games and revisit that win/loss record.

The fact is, wherever he plays, the team is losing. His best role is off the bench. We saw it work. Now we are forced to go to something very unlikely to work based on 62 games last season.

 

[Glenn]

Really? Cause last time I checked Cousins was the franchise guy so he's the one leading to those win totals, that last loss was not on him neither was the Jazz one both were on Cousins for a). getting into needless foul trouble and b). Not adjusting at either end against the Suns. Thomas had minimal impact in the last two losses.

But yeah lets blame Isaiah for Ben's mental issues, without Isaiah I'm sure we would be a 82-0 team lol. Ben and both Marcus Thornton are mentally soft that's why they are both struggling.

It is very difficult to have a conversation of any meaning with a person so rapped up in extreme exaggeration in order to prove an unclear point. I guess this forum can be for people who just need to vent as well as people who want to discuss issues. Your rant is filled with inaccuracies.

No on here designated Cousins as the franchise player. You are yapping in the wrong place.

No one here thinks that fouling isn't a major problem for Cousins. No one here thinks Cousins is absolutely mature. No one here thinks Cousins is a great defender.

Ben is a rookie and it doesn't need to be taken any further than that. The comment that set you off is that in this last few games, all of which IT started, is that Ben's game seems to have deteriorated from the struggling point it was at. I am all for Ben coming off the bench as he is a useless appendage on the present starting 5. Why on earth would we want a rookie shooter in our starting 5? Our problem is that he would be replaced by MT but that's OK with me if Ben can progress coming off the bench. MT is old news.

 

[sdballer]

The forum literally ignores anything negative Cousins does but dissects the smallest things Thomas/Thornton or any other role player does.

Are you kidding? They ignore everything Cousins does that is negative?

 

[Chubbs]

Are you kidding? They ignore everything Cousins does that is negative?

Read the comments from the last game. Cousins took a LOT of heat.

 

[sdballer]

Read the comments from the last game. Cousins took a LOT of heat.

That's my point. Cousins gets blasted on here more than anyone. And that may be ok since he is our best player. I'm just sick of the same 3-4 IT fanatics freaking out anyone points to a weakness of his and how it impacts the team.

 

[Kingsfan23]

No, not at all. we've tried this before. It didn't work last year, and with the way the team is, I think it works even less well now.

But fine, we can wait another 10 games and revisit that win/loss record.

The fact is, wherever he plays, the team is losing. His best role is off the bench. We saw it work. Now we are forced to go to something very unlikely to work based on 62 games last season.

Isaiah is young, improving and has pretty much improved in all aspects from last year. We have a much better coach that will instruct him on how to play. Against Dallas the kid had all the tools in the shed. If we are still having this convo in a few weeks I might agree he's not cut out for the role. My biggest questions are on defense but IT has heart and will fight to be competent, so we'll see

 

[Chubbs]

Isaiah is young, improving and has pretty much improved in all aspects from last year. We have a much better coach that will instruct him on how to play. Against Dallas the kid had all the tools in the shed. If we are still having this convo in a few weeks I might agree he's not cut out for the role. My biggest questions are on defense but IT has heart and will fight to be competent, so we'll see

You're right. Last year and this year are not the same thing. So we shall see. I just don't think he has it in him to be what he needs to be as a starter. He can do the same stuff off the bench to much more effect. And less criticism.

I don't think the defense thing is fixable. The passing stuff he's shown he's somewhat capability. But I think what he is is established. And I think it has an important role on a good team.

Since there are literally no other options at the moment, I guess arguing whether he should start or not is kinda silly. He IS starting and will continue to until there's another trade.

 

[Glenn]

Certainly there is a trade waiting for Dec 15. I can hardly believe PDA would have left Malone with one PG unless ...................

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Does anyone know what Ben's shooting percentage was, before he was put into the starting lineup? From memory, I'm guessing that it was higher. I noticed a dropoff in the quality of his shot attempts as soon as he was a starter.

I was all for the change from Thornton to Ben in the starting lineup, but looking back on it, I'm not sure that it has helped Ben's development much.

One thing it has made me appreciate, is a reliable consistent scorer like Kevin Martin. His ability to get to the free throw line a lot, is a huge asset from that position

 

[Bricklayer]

Does anyone know what Ben's shooting percentage was, before he was put into the starting lineup? From memory, I'm guessing that it was higher. I noticed a dropoff in the quality of his shot attempts as soon as he was a starter.

I was all for the change from Thornton to Ben in the starting lineup, but looking back on it, I'm not sure that it has helped Ben's development much.

One thing it has made me appreciate, is a reliable consistent scorer like Kevin Martin. His ability to get to the free throw line a lot, is a huge asset from that position

McLemore As Starter: 27.5min 9.1pts (.324 .313 .833) 3.5reb 1.2ast 0.8stl 0.2blk 1.1TO
McLemore Off Bench: 19.7min 8.8pts (.435 .417 .500) 2.3reb 0.7ast 0.7stl 0.2blk 0.8TO

May be onto something. So might have Malone when he was reluctant to just throw Ben out there in the early season and wanted him to learn from the bench.

Going back on it game by game, off the bench Ben had 3 good games and 3 bad/invisible games. Rookie inconsistency. But his 3 good games were actually the only 3 games of the season when he shot 50% or better. In 15 games as a starter, not once has he shot 50%. .324 overall. That's pretty remarkable Austin rivers type stuff there.

 

[Glenn]

McLemore As Starter: 27.5min 9.1pts (.324 .313 .833) 3.5reb 1.2ast 0.8stl 0.2blk 1.1TO
McLemore Off Bench: 19.7min 8.8pts (.435 .417 .500) 2.3reb 0.7ast 0.7stl 0.2blk 0.8TO

May be onto something. So might have Malone when he was reluctant to just throw Ben out there in the early season and wanted him to learn from the bench.

Going back on it game by game, off the bench Ben had 3 good games and 3 bad/invisible games. Rookie inconsistency. But his 3 good games were actually the only 3 games of the season when he shot 50% or better. In 15 games as a starter, not once has he shot 50%. .324 overall. That's pretty remarkable Austin rivers type stuff there.

Wow!!! That explains why Malone thought he was ready to start. It now seems like a reason to place him back on the bench. I don't want him being Mr. Irrelevant on the starting 5 and don't give a damn if that position is played by MT. Let the kid mature in a more friendly environment. He is part of our future and MT is not.

 

[KingMilz]

No, not at all. we've tried this before. It didn't work last year, and with the way the team is, I think it works even less well now.

But fine, we can wait another 10 games and revisit that win/loss record.

The fact is, wherever he plays, the team is losing. His best role is off the bench. We saw it work. Now we are forced to go to something very unlikely to work based on 62 games last season.

In the Dallas game that was not the case, he kept us in the game in the first half in Utah and we were on fire until DMC started forcing after the 1st with IT in the Suns game I don't get how you can say that since he has been starting.

I also think he's better off the bench but to blame IT for the teams downfall is a joke he's done more thanfine as a starter it's just the fact he's a elite bench player. Also nothing worked last year cause we had a clown coaching.

 

[KingMilz]

Why on earth would we want a rookie shooter in our starting 5? .

Floor spacing for Gay, IT, Cousins eventually he's going to hit open looks combined with the fact he has worse handles than most out big men so he needs others to create for him.

 

[Chubbs]

In the Dallas game that was not the case, he kept us in the game in the first half in Utah and we were on fire until DMC started forcing after the 1st with IT in the Suns game I don't get how you can say that since he has been starting.

I also think he's better off the bench but to blame IT for the teams downfall is a joke he's done more thanfine as a starter it's just the fact he's a elite bench player. Also nothing worked last year cause we had a clown coaching.

You're missing what I'm saying. The team is bad. That's what I'm saying. No matter where IT plays, bench or starting. Blame him for the teams downfall? He's just one guy. I understand the concept of team. .

 

[Gliesian]

At this point I'd love to try Cousins at power forward and have the offense run through him at the top of the key. He got what, half the assists of the whole team last game? It's a horrible strategy, but what we have right now is pretty hard to beat in the horrid category.

 

[Glenn]

Floor spacing for Gay, IT, Cousins eventually he's going to hit open looks combined with the fact he has worse handles than most out big men so he needs others to create for him.

Context, sir. Context. Eliminate everything I wrote for this. Very clever. I may try it with one of your notes and see if I can make you sound silly and me sound intelligent.

 

[KingMilz]

At this point I'd love to try Cousins at power forward and have the offense run through him at the top of the key. He got what, half the assists of the whole team last game? It's a horrible strategy, but what we have right now is pretty hard to beat in the horrid category.

Nah Cousins is at his best passing from the low post and he was amazing at in the first quarter and had he not stopped he would have had a 10-12 assist game and we would have won.

 

[HndsmCelt]

My pet theory is the PDA is pulling a classic trade up scenario, where he plans to just keep trading nonessential personal for higher quality players with a final intent on moving some of the higher value pieces for the final pieces needed. Think of the old base ball card trading (circa 1970s) or watch an episode of Barter Kings. We started the season with a glut of guards, nothing at the 3 and minimal depth at the 4-5. That has flipped since then but I would not expect it to remain static. To me this seems a very fluid situation and strongly suspect up grades at the 1 and 2 by the trade deadline.

 

[Gliesian]

Nah Cousins is at his best passing from the low post and he was amazing at in the first quarter and had he not stopped he would have had a 10-12 assist game and we would have won.

He has shown that he can pass from outside though and it works pretty well. Maybe he and Gay need to just both have a good night before I give up on the idea of IT being an acceptable floor general

 

[ESP47]

I have to laugh at the notion that IT is somehow the reason why Ben bricks all those wide open 3's.

You guys do realize that we're middle of the pack on offense and bottom of the barrel on defense right? Everyone is worried about "roles" and IT's assist numbers (his assist % is the same as Vasquez's btw). The offense is acceptable. The defense is atrocious. Yet no one talks about it because this board has built up some weird obsession that IT's offense is what is holding this team back.

Lets ignore the fact that we have 4 bad defenders in our starting 5. Only two of which can make up the difference with their offense. We have absolutely no perimeter D. We have no shot blockers under the rim to help the bad perimeter D. We can't defend a pick and roll or switch to save our lives. We got rid of our 3 best defenders in Mbah, Hayes and Salmons. We give up the 2nd most points per game in the league....yet somehow we're being held back by IT playing "street ball". That is ridiculous. Before we get to IT, how about we talk about the fact that we have two shooting guards who can't shoot.

Rudy Gay is the only player on this team can that both defend and score. He's the only complete player we have. Every other player on this entire team is a liability on one side of the court or the other. Until we stock up on a few more complete players or at least players that can defend, we're going to keep losing a ton of games.