Big Cuz 15
All-Star
if the dubs win it all this year? i know it's premature since they haven't won it all but with the defending champs outta the picture..
will we be looking for another splash brother clone in the draft
- Thread starter Big Cuz 15
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Already am. Want the Warriors out stat.
We're pretty full up at SG and the only player in our range that I'd classify as a potential "splash brother clone" is Mario Hezonja, so I don't think it's very likely. If we move up into the top-three and you want to make the argument that D'Angelo Russell fits that bill because there are reasonable comparisons between him and Steph Curry, then sure. But Russell is quite a bit more than just a fancy shooter - he'd be our long-term probable All-Star solution at the PG if we took him. He's a very good passer, and while he's not breathtakingly athletic at 6'5" he's big for the position and to my eye he was a much better defender than he gets credit for (though I only saw him in the second half of the season - in the first half I have heard that his effort was poor on that end, which was not a problem he had when I watched).
But if we stay at #6/7, I'd put odds on us taking Willie Cauley-Stein if he's available.
But if we stay at #6/7, I'd put odds on us taking Willie Cauley-Stein if he's available.
captain bill
All-Star
Are you implying that getting a historically great 3 point shooter with good handles and high BBIQ with an MVP on the way would be a bad thing?
I think there are two types of players we should be looking for in this draft: a front court player with good size who is a great defender and rebounder, or a SG who can shoot the lights, facilitate the offense, and play solid D.
I think there are two types of players we should be looking for in this draft: a front court player with good size who is a great defender and rebounder, or a SG who can shoot the lights, facilitate the offense, and play solid D.
randymoss1881
Starter
This thread wouldn't be funny if we still had Mullin
Getting one would be great. Spending essentially 3 consecutive picks in hopes of finding one to no avail ... not so much.
captain bill
All-Star
This is the exact reason why I believe this team needs a better PG. Times are changing and this is becoming a PG's league. PGs are the most dominant position in basketball. I still do not know why some people, specifically on this board believe that you should take a big man 9/10 in a striving guard league. It's much more easier to build around a PG than it is a C.
Here are the scoring guards no one is talking about in this draft:
Payne is another good scoring guard. Shows ability to hit shots on the floor. However, he struggles a bit to finish in the paint. He needs to put on weight because his size limits him against bigs defending the rim. His inside game is a - for him. On the other hand, he's a very good passer. He's always looking to get his teammates involved and has a good feel as a PG.
Of those two, Hanlan is the better scorer, but Payne is the better passer.
Here are the scoring guards no one is talking about in this draft:
- Cameron Payne 6'2 180lbs Point guard(Maybe Curry)
20pts 6asts 3.8rebs 1.8 stls 2.6tos
2. Oliver Hanlan 6'4 188lbs Combo guard(Maybe Curry)
19.5pts 4.2asts 4.2rebs 1.3stls 2.7tos
Hanlan is a very good scorer. He shows nice ability to hit his mid range jumpers and shows that he can extend his game out to the 3pt line, although he doesn't live on it. He does a very good job at attacking and finishing at the rim. However, he's not the best at creating. His playmaking skills need to improve.- 50% from 2pt
- 37% from 3pt
- 78% from ft
- 44% in paint
2. Oliver Hanlan 6'4 188lbs Combo guard(Maybe Curry)
19.5pts 4.2asts 4.2rebs 1.3stls 2.7tos
- 51% from 2pt
- 35% from 3pt
- 76% from ft
- 68% at the rim
Payne is another good scoring guard. Shows ability to hit shots on the floor. However, he struggles a bit to finish in the paint. He needs to put on weight because his size limits him against bigs defending the rim. His inside game is a - for him. On the other hand, he's a very good passer. He's always looking to get his teammates involved and has a good feel as a PG.
Of those two, Hanlan is the better scorer, but Payne is the better passer.
IfAt1st
Starter
I've been trying to convince my brother to get off the Warriors bandwagon, since it is mortal danger to the Kings and their starry-eyed owner, Vivek.
The Grizz need to bash the Warriors where it hurts and convince Vivek of the power/use of big men. (unfortunately not likely if Conley's not 100%)
These are nowhere near close to be projected as "Curries". Curry hit .412 of his 1004 attempts from 3 and .876 of 547 FT attempts. You knew, he was an elite shooter coming into the league. These guys might be good shooters, which ends the comparison instantly. These guys are not ready to get minutes on a PO team in the next couple of seasons for the reasons, you mentioned towards the end of your post. Right off the top of my head I don't see, how Payne becomes better, than what DC is right now, and Kings got Darren for under MLE money. If Payne develops properly, Kings can get him at MLE+$1 million in 4 years.
As for current splash brothers Clippers played them pretty tight with two late season close losses coming without Jamal Crawford, who was surprisingly their most effective player in two earlier contests, plus Clippers were much better defensively vs Spurs than in RS. To be fair though one of 2 March games was close in big part, because Draymond missed the game, and Blake went off on poor David Lee for 40 points. Warriors are still the favorites in potential WCF matchup vs Clips, but it will be pretty close. Grizzlies OTOH will have to elevate from physical and tough to dirty and ugly to have a chance though. Doubt it doesn't end in 5 games.
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c-webb1s#1
Starter
Id like the grizzlies to win it all as well but i just don't see it happening. The warriors are just to damn good and the injury to Conley made predicting this round easy.
Honestly, injuries have for the most part made these playoffs a lot less intense! Aside from the clips-spurs its been pretty weak.
Honestly, injuries have for the most part made these playoffs a lot less intense! Aside from the clips-spurs its been pretty weak.
Agreed all around. Around draft time I think everyone starts over valuing guys coming out and undervaluing players already in the league. I can understand it - guys in the draft are all shiny and new and every one of them is compared to several currently established players or even all-stars or hall of famers. All of which helps people forget that half of them won't make any sort of impact in the NBA and at least one or two of the guys taken top 5 will be complete busts.
Curry scored 31 points a game as a senior when defenses keyed ONLY on stopping him. 31 ppg despite that absolutely ridiculous Loyola game where he was held scoreless. How many other players in NBA history can say they were double and triple teamed every possession even without the ball?
If the Kings traded for a 2nd rounder I'd love to take a flyer on Hanlan as I think you want a scorer off the bench behind Collison.
If there was a real Curry in this draft, they'd be drafted in the top 5. These guys are late 1st-2nd round picks. Nowhere near polished as Curry, but they're both scoring guards with potential.
If you're looking for someone who knocks down 3s at .400 look at Tyler Harvey. He's basically a taller Jimmer though. Or maybe RJ Hunter who is more of a SG too.
No, the most ridiculous part is trying to find a comp player in college. Everytime someone predicts a prospect to be a certain type of player, it almost never happens.
The mistake is trying to find players that resemble today. Why do you believe Curry fell in the draft? Why do you think the Warriors would take this 6'3 scoring guard who isn't a playmaker? There were so many questions about Curry's game translating into the NBA simply because we've never really seen a player like him. Same with Draymond Green.
The game is changing and I think a mistake is trying to find players that resemble current players.
Albatros
Starter
If the warriors win the title it proves you can win that way, can't really deny it at that point.
doesn't look like the Grizz could stay with them in game 1, don't see them losing the series, don't see the clippers beating them either, no one from the East will be able to do anything against them.
doesn't look like the Grizz could stay with them in game 1, don't see them losing the series, don't see the clippers beating them either, no one from the East will be able to do anything against them.
Curry didn't "fall" in the draft. He was drafted just about where everyone predicted he would be picked or if anything, taken a spot or two higher.
Steph Curry was among the best scorers (if not the best) and was absolutely the best shooter in college basketball. And he'd get more spacing and better looks in the NBA. But considering he only played PG his final season at Davidson and was not a great athlete the questions were whether he could play the point full time or if he'd be an undersized SG without the quickness to make up for it.
But him doubling his assists his junior year assuaged some concerns. Curry's floor was a Steve Kerr type player. He was actually a pretty safe pick as a junior with tons of tape. I just don't think people (including me) realized how high his ceiling could be.
Steph Curry was among the best scorers (if not the best) and was absolutely the best shooter in college basketball. And he'd get more spacing and better looks in the NBA. But considering he only played PG his final season at Davidson and was not a great athlete the questions were whether he could play the point full time or if he'd be an undersized SG without the quickness to make up for it.
But him doubling his assists his junior year assuaged some concerns. Curry's floor was a Steve Kerr type player. He was actually a pretty safe pick as a junior with tons of tape. I just don't think people (including me) realized how high his ceiling could be.
Trade or sign a vet FA SG who is a proven 3 and D guy....don't draft another one. At 6 or 7, most likely the BPA is going to be a guy like WCS whose talents we can use and whose talents probably transfer to the pro game immediately. But to draft another SG and turn that position over to some combination of 3rd or 2 nd or 1st year guy....again...would be a sign of insanity....doing the same thing over and over. Learn from your mistakes.
The Kings starting lineup looked like world beaters to start the year: very tough defensively, great on the boards, attacking the basket and winning the free throw battle and really just lacking in outside shooting. The biggest issue then was a complete lack of bench scoring and shooting. Really I think the Kings could be competitive (8th or 9th seed level) just by upgrading the bench a bit. What was happening under Malone wasn't a fluke. It was a sustainable style and I think Karl is smart enough to play to those strengths while upgrading the offensive execution, something we started to see glmpses of down the stretch.
Cauley-Stein doesn't address bench scoring or the shooting woes but he does make for a great frontcourt mate for Boogie. I'd imagine he'd start the season coming off the bench but I could see him taking a starting spot by the all-star break.
Beyond that I think you have to add a sixth man type scorer at PG or SG. And a wing shooter, ideally one that can swing between SF and SG. I'd love to have a young PG good enough that he could be groomed behind DC until he's ready to take his starting spot pushing Collison to being a super sub PG and spot starter but I don't that it happens this offseason unless say WCS goes before the Kings and someone like Mudiay slips on draft day.
Shooters can be had on the FA market. Anthony Morrow signed for 3 years/$10 million and he's practically the ideal bench shooter. What the Kings can't afford on the free agent market is an athletic big who can rebound and block shots. Those types of guys command salaries in the $10-12 million a year range. Heck JaVale McGee is slated to earn $12 million next year. Unless the Kings jump up to the top three, WCS is off the board or a godfather type offer comes in I think the Kings have to take Cauley-Stein and address the bench and shooting issues through trades and free agency.
Cauley-Stein doesn't address bench scoring or the shooting woes but he does make for a great frontcourt mate for Boogie. I'd imagine he'd start the season coming off the bench but I could see him taking a starting spot by the all-star break.
Beyond that I think you have to add a sixth man type scorer at PG or SG. And a wing shooter, ideally one that can swing between SF and SG. I'd love to have a young PG good enough that he could be groomed behind DC until he's ready to take his starting spot pushing Collison to being a super sub PG and spot starter but I don't that it happens this offseason unless say WCS goes before the Kings and someone like Mudiay slips on draft day.
Shooters can be had on the FA market. Anthony Morrow signed for 3 years/$10 million and he's practically the ideal bench shooter. What the Kings can't afford on the free agent market is an athletic big who can rebound and block shots. Those types of guys command salaries in the $10-12 million a year range. Heck JaVale McGee is slated to earn $12 million next year. Unless the Kings jump up to the top three, WCS is off the board or a godfather type offer comes in I think the Kings have to take Cauley-Stein and address the bench and shooting issues through trades and free agency.
I don't think it should change anything for Kings, since, I believe, you misunderstand, what "that way" means. There are 3 major factors in going all the way:
1. Team must have a top-10 offense.
2. Team must have a top-10 defense. Note, that a team can survive not having top10 offensive efficiency during RS with subsequent improvement in POs. Not having top10 defense dooms you from the start.
3. Must have someone able to score in crunch time, or at least someone demanding so much attention, his teammate can sneak in a crunch time shot. I believe, in previous 24 years one of just five players was featured on one of competitors for the title.
Warriors defy only rule 3, while acing first two (late season push by Clippers moved them to #2 in offensive efficiency, but Dubs were likely slacking late in the season).
Rule 3 was always a symbol of the fact, that you generally must have someone attacking the basket, when jumpshots stop falling. When talk about a jumpshooting team failing at POs starts, people often turn to 2011 Mavs, and then go for Spurs 2010s. Well, Dirk wasn't exactly hoisting long-range shots in bunches, and surprisingly not even Heat were able to shut down Barea's penetration, while Spurs still had Parker to get inside and for stretches Timmy would bring back the past. In this sense, yes, Warriors would be the first to win as strictly a jumpshooting team. Always helps to have likely best shooting duo in history, that is at least average defensively.
Still if Warriors go all the way, they do it on the strength of their defense as well. Warriors managed to surround their two shooters/non-liabilities defensively with defenders, ranging from good to pushing for league-best. Combing through the list of their PO contributors, only Speights can be characterized as below average defender. Their backup C is a strong, long dude with some mobility and barely any skill. They got lucky many times during team building: star forward turned out to be unselfish and humble, accepting low usage role off the bench; former star center, who couldn't stay on the floor for a long time, manages to fix his ankles (also happens to be a perfect match to a pair of jumpshooters due to defensive and passing ability); former college star center, disciple of arguably the best teacher of defensive fundamentals, manages to trim down and develop a reliable outside shot, effectively moving his passing game and defensive ability to PF spot.
Still turning back to a team, that features Demarcus Cousins and Rudy Gay, what Warriors' example would show us?
Here, I would imagine, we go rather different ways in our thought process. My main take away is let's go for defensive role players, who don't get in a way of main guys. My definition would include guys, who can only effectively shoot from corners among wings, or quickly cut to the basket for swift finishes inside for big guys.
This conversation will also inevitably turn to a discussion of "pace and space" and "pushing the ball".
Concept #1. Anyone arguing against second part of this mantra have problems understanding, how NBA offense works these days. Note that Brick, who is unconditionally for "bully ball" advocates for throwing a baby with water (Ben obviously being a baby) to get bit better spacing as early as possible. Second part is trickier: given that your main player will never be mistaken for a track&field athlete unconditional "run, run, run" just doesn't make sense. What would the conditions be then? Don't jeopardize defense and rebounding, while passing on low percentage shots, unless they are at the end of the shot clock:
Wanna push the ball after a made basket? - Good.
Wanna gamble for a steal to get two more easy points? - Bad.
Leaking out from strong side, even before the ball is secured? Ok.
Leaking out from weak side instead of crashing towards the basket? Bad.
Taking an early 3 after path to the basket was cut off in transition, while being 35% shooter from outside - coach told to seek early opportunities, right? Really bad.
Defend without much gambling; secure the ball; push it in transition, looking for a high percentage shot early; otherwise wait for Demarcus - this should be modus operandi for Kings.
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rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Lost in some of this is it's incredibly rare to luck into a guy like Curry, or a Nash. You can't just say I'm going to draft the next Curry. There's so much which goes into a player's success from training habits to mentality to confidence. What was the difference between TMac/Vince and Kobe? It was mostly mentality, training habits, supreme confidence and a cutthroat mentality. Put Kobe's brain into TMac's or Vince's body and they'd have likely been a fair amount better. And put TMac's brain into Kobe's body and Kobe doesn't have 5 rings.
It's also rare to luck into a guy like Cuz. When you do, you celebrate what you came across and acquired and find a way to develop and use that player most effectively. That's the worst part of this addiction to GS, you can't simply go out and replicate it. There is one Steph Curry. As we've seen, what's more likely is to end up with Jimmer Fredette.
Any blueprint which says I'm going to draft the next Curry or the next Dirk or the next Durant or the next Lebron is foolish. If we had Curry, we'd love him. It'd be great. Absolutely phenomenal player. Yet we don't and we won't. Attempting to replicate a poor-man's version is an exercise in futility. Enjoy Curry for what he is as an NBA fan. Enjoy what we have in Cuz for what he is as an NBA fan and Kings fan. Both are rare players. No one around the league can say I'm going to draft the next DeMarcus Cousins either. Doesn't work that way.
It's also rare to luck into a guy like Cuz. When you do, you celebrate what you came across and acquired and find a way to develop and use that player most effectively. That's the worst part of this addiction to GS, you can't simply go out and replicate it. There is one Steph Curry. As we've seen, what's more likely is to end up with Jimmer Fredette.
Any blueprint which says I'm going to draft the next Curry or the next Dirk or the next Durant or the next Lebron is foolish. If we had Curry, we'd love him. It'd be great. Absolutely phenomenal player. Yet we don't and we won't. Attempting to replicate a poor-man's version is an exercise in futility. Enjoy Curry for what he is as an NBA fan. Enjoy what we have in Cuz for what he is as an NBA fan and Kings fan. Both are rare players. No one around the league can say I'm going to draft the next DeMarcus Cousins either. Doesn't work that way.
Redo the 2009 draft and Curry goes #1 overall followed by Harden and Blake Griffin. He would not fall out of the top 3.
Again, like I said people have never seen a player of Curry's caliber in the NBA. 6'3 skinny PG whos a lights out shooter, but may be an undersized SG in the NBA. Not a traditional PG and he's not a very good playmaker having only played his last season as a PG.
Curry was unique to the NBA and everyone wanted to make NBA comparisons for him. He doesn't look like Chris Paul nor Deron Williams, so he probably won't be that good. That's the mindset people had simply because up until now, there weren't many 6'3 180lb Comboguards that could shoot lights out from anywhere on the floor.
Now, the mistake we are doing heading into this draft, is that we want to find the next Curry or Thompson. But why? Who was Curry before he was Curry? Who was Thompson before he was Thompson?
Albatros
Starter
I didn't misunderstand what I myself posted.
Livinthedream
All-Star
So frustrating that PDA and Vivek don't appear to understand this.
Just as true is that your style has to fit your current best player. Regardless of the trends in the league. Imagine if the Patriots decided that they preferred the Option offense and tried to convince everyone Brady can run if he wants to. Maybe he can. But it's not his strength and it's a waste of his talent.
Focusing on style and trying to emulate another team in personnel and structure is counterproductive when you already have your star.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Comes to that, dump the pick, get back something we KNOW works.
The catastrophe of blowing 5 straight Top 10 lottery picks would just be too much.
I mean if you're solely looking for a Curry in the draft then you've already lost because you can't find another Curry.
I think I'd avoid reading this if I were you.. Wasn't aware I wrote this much until I did. In short, I just factor in our team needs and apply them to prospects. I evaluate each single prospect to see what they can potentially bring to this team and how they can solve our problem.
Here's just how I personally look at the draft and how we should draft.
1. First, I look at the current trend of the NBA. It is a guard driven league. Then I look at our roster and compare them. There are always outliers, but you need to stay competitive and meet the level of competition. Our guard position is a struggle.
2. Then, I evaluate our roster for our general needs. Our biggest need is perimeter defense. Our 2nd biggest need is consistent 3pt shooting. Our 3rd biggest need is a rim protection. Those are the 3 things we need to answer in the draft.
3. Finally I break it down further into specific positions and our depth chart.
PG- Collison/Ray. Neither players are good playmakers and they're just simple solid. PG is a position we should look to improve if we can. Let's talk about what it lacks. Collison is not a consistent creator. He's also a decent defender, but his size limits him. He fits more as a backup PG than a starting PG because he lacks the talent. When you compare Collison to the rest of the PGs in the NBA, he's a bottom 5. The league has star PGs on almost every team. That's what the Kings need. So they should improve PG if they have the chance to.
Then I take a look at the draft. There are certain players who can fulfill those needs. I'll go by position:- A PG can potentially fulfill 2/3 things we need. Perimeter defense and shooting from 3pt range.
- A SG can potentially fulfill 2/3 things we need. Perimeter defense and shooting from 3pt range.
- A SF can potentially fulfill 3/3 things we need.
- A PF can potentially fulfill 2/3 things we need. Rim protection and 3pt shooting.
PG- D'angelo Russel, Emanuel Mudiay
SG- Mario Hezonja/ Devin Booker/ RJ Hunter/ Justise Winslow
SF- Justise Winslow/Stanley Johnson/Sam Dekker/Mario Hezonja
PF- Karl Towns/ WCS/ Kristpahs Porzingis/ Frank Kaminsky
I'm just going to select to evaluate SFs.
I'm not looking for the player that can provide us the most out of those 3 things. But I look at what else they can bring to the team aside from their specialties.
Justise Winslow is a hustle and energy type of player. He's the type of player who doesn't give up on plays and rushes up and down the court( high motor). On offense, he's a good 3pt shooter, but struggles from the mid area shots. He's very good at attacking the rim because of his strength and quickness. Has the ability to catch offensive rebounds and lay them in. He's a good passer with some ability to create. He's not the best ball handler, but he is solid. His FT shooting needs work. His shooting mechanics will need to be tweaked up in the NBA. On defense, he's a very good perimeter defender who can jam his opponents. He is also a very good shotblocker at his size.
Winslow basically provides 2/3 things we need. Perimeter defense and 3pt shooting.
Stanley Johnson is a defined player. He has the size and strength to bully opponents. On offense, he has range from almost anywhere on the floor. However, he has to show a bit more consistency with his shooting. He does a good job around the paint area where he'll probably do most his damage in the NBA. On defense, he doesn't have the lateral quickness you want. He's not a good perimeter defender because of his lack of quickness, however he has he size to defend his man in the paint.
Johnson provides 1/3 things we need. 3pt shooting.
Now I look at the 2 and figure who gives us more of what we need and how each player fits in our roster. Johnson is a very similar player to Rudy Gay which would not work out unless you bring Johnson off the bench.
So yes I do look a bit at need when I evaluate these prospects which is why I value some higher and some lower.
I'm honestly not sure if this was the exact answer you were looking for though..
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