Who's the real starter?

[sdballer]

I feel like a lot of people are over analyzing this.

I see a lot of nitpicking going on in regards to Isaiah Thomas. "He shouldn't start because people can shoot over him" "He shouldn't start because he shoots to much" "He shouldn't start because he's playing SO well off the bench"

Those points are all fine and dandy. All valid, aside from the 'he shouldn't start' part.

I agree with Brick and others, he is destined for a 6th man role on a contending team. That is where he will likely find his home, either here or somewhere else.

All of that being said, Vasquez is playing like someone who doesn't even deserve a rotation spot. He's worse than Beno or Bibby on defense, and he can't shoot. He does one thing better than Isaiah Thomas, and that one thing he does better isn't helping us in any way. It hasn't been on display in any tangible manner.

And the inconvenient truth is that Isaiah Thomas should be shooting the ball for this years Kings team. If you put him in the starting lineup without making any other changes (I WOULD make other changes) I want Thomas shooting more than Salmons, Patterson, and Thornton with the way those guys are going.

It's ludicrous that Thomas is scoring 20 PPG as a bench guard. He is averaging more minutes and assists than Vasquez as well. He's playing starter minutes, he's on the floor at the end of games, he is doing everything a starter does aside from starting.

So with Malone playing Thomas like a starter anyway, I don't see why he wouldn't, or shouldn't just start Isaiah and maybe we can avoid playing from 10+ down in the second quarter every night.
.

The reason he shouldn't start is the same reason nba teams haven't started players like him for years. You want to establish your offense early, primarily your star players. Then you bring in shoot first energizes like him to punish tired first units/benches.

IT hasn't shown the ability or willingness to get teammates good touches. He's at his most effective when its the IT show and when teammates get passes on transition and broken plays. We've seen it be very effective off the bench and in sparking comebacks. But it wasn't effective starting last year and the point was to change that culture this year.

Yes, Vasquez has been bad and the other complimentary starters have been shooting poorly. But the answer can't be to go back to one-on-one ball featuring our 5-9" pg.

 

[DesertFox]

If you double Cuz, there is really no one that can make other teams pay. Ben eventually, but not quite yet.

MT, IT, and Salmons/Outlaw to an extent, can shoot pretty well and score. But they aren't dead-eye shooters that you can't leave open.
If you leave one of them open to double Cuz, it's "oh well, hope he doesn't make it." They can create shots, but don't improve if you leave them open.

This might be why Malone was "considering" Jimmer as a starter over MT. Jimmer is a shooter you can't leave open.

 

[cuad]

Salmons can't shoot or score. Don't be silly. He only gets points because teams let him.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

The reason he shouldn't start is the same reason nba teams haven't started players like him for years. You want to establish your offense early, primarily your star players. Then you bring in shoot first energizes like him to punish tired first units/benches.

IT hasn't shown the ability or willingness to get teammates good touches. He's at his most effective when its the IT show and when teammates get passes on transition and broken plays. We've seen it be very effective off the bench and in sparking comebacks. But it wasn't effective starting last year and the point was to change that culture this year.

Yes, Vasquez has been bad and the other complimentary starters have been shooting poorly. But the answer can't be to go back to one-on-one ball featuring our 5-9" pg.

Oh, thank goodness Vasquez is doing such a marvelous job establishing our offense. Or better yet, doing absolutely nothing to prevent the opposing teams point guard from establishing their offense. I'm fairly certain Isaiah Thomas can, at the very least, establish whatever Vasquez is establishing right now.

Again, I can't help but feel like you are over analyzing a little tiny piece of the puzzle and overlooking the glaring, gigantic crater of a problem with how the starters are performing as a unit.

Isaiah Thomas gave up some points to Teague last night, but when it mattered at the end of the game he made a few great defensive plays. Plays GV doesn't have the ability or footspeed to make. IT is not a great defender, but he is leaps and bounds better than Vasquez. You haven't even mentioned defense.

Isaiah Thomas is doing everything better. The Hawks triple teamed Cousins on multiple occasions because no one on that unit can create for themselves. I hate that we lost Evans because he was gave us a big time scoring option next to Cousins, and an elite rim attacker. This team has no one that can attack the rim from the perimeter other than Isaiah Thomas. That's terrible, by the way, but that is reality.

So maybe, MAYBE Vasquez can get the ball to Cousins more. We haven't seen the payoff from that, but maybe. Other than that, what is Vasquez doing for DeMarcus? What can Thomas do for DeMarcus? Well, he can shoot from outside which ideally spreads the floor. He is actually an offensive threat unlike any other starter we have, which can prevent double and triple teams on DMC. He can give this team some much needed leadership and toughness, which has rubbed off on Cousins in the past. And maybe most importantly, Cousins and Thomas like each other. They respect each other. Cousins might kill GV before the next game is over.

We have exactly ONE other starter who is averaging double digits in points, and that is Thornton with 10.8 PPG. Believe it or not, the starters need help offensively scoring the ball. Yes, scoring the ball. Cousins can't do it all by himself.

Thomas also leads the team in FTA attempts by 3 FT's per game. Again, he's the only guys outside of Cousins who can break his man down and make a play for himself.

I don't think we'll ever agree on this, which is fine. No big deal, but I suspect we'll see Thomas in the starting unit sooner than later if Vasquez doesn't drastically improve his play on both ends. And it won't be ideal, like I said before I'd prefer Thomas in a bench role as well, but this team needs him to do more.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Until such time as Vivek Ranadive and Pete D'Alessandro decide that DeMarcus Cousins is no longer our franchise player, the one thing that Greivis Vasquez can do that Isaiah Thomas can't is more important to the long-term goals of this club than what Thomas can do that Vasquez can't.

We don't know whether Vasquez/Cousins will actually work; four games isn't enough time to have made that determination. But, since we've already seen Thomas/Cousins, and we know that it doesn't, I'm not prepared to give up on Vasquez just yet.

 

[sdballer]

I mentioned defense a lot in my pg grades last night. When IT is trying he's a much better defender. When he's not, which is far too frequent, he's just as bad.

In terms of their impact on the team, it's not like we didn't see IT lead the team last year. We never got cousins good scoring opportunities and every one else basically watched each other dribble around. Why make the change to bring in a pass first point guard and different offense if we were just going to abandon it early in the season.

Do you honestly believe IT has changed his game to be more team oriented on offense? Or that Malone's system will change that?

I hated losing Evans too and remain totally unconvinced that GV or any pass first pg are the keys to offensive success. We have too many bad players, especially on d, to establish any kind of rhythm. But I'm not ready to go back to watching the pizza guy excel while the rest of the team, especially cousins, flounders.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Until such time as Vivek Ranadive and Pete D'Alessandro decide that DeMarcus Cousins is no longer our franchise player, the one thing that Greivis Vasquez can do that Isaiah Thomas can't is more important to the long-term goals of this club than what Thomas can do that Vasquez can't.

We don't know whether Vasquez/Cousins will actually work; four games isn't enough time to have made that determination. But, since we've already seen Thomas/Cousins, and we know that it doesn't, I'm not prepared to give up on Vasquez just yet.

To be fair, Isaiah Thomas hasn't had the chance under good ownership and coaching, and I don't know if we can say Cousins and Thomas didn't 'work'. Can we define 'work' ? Did Cousins play well? I'd say yes, Cousins had a pretty good year last season. Did the team win? No, but there are so many factors that go into that.

IT also had to distribute between two major pieces, Evans and Cousins, which is easier said than done. Evans is gone now, which is unfortunate in my opinion, but that is a factor. This team needs Thomas to play in a way that is more geared towards Thomas' strengths than last years team.

That's another thing. GV would work much better next to another player who can create, defend, score, etc. Like Tyreke Evans. The Kings do not have that player anymore. Right now we start two liabilities in the backcourt, with neither player being able to defend anyone or score 1 on 1 against anyone.

And if you are preaching patience I can buy that. I can say I'd start Thomas but respect giving it more time. I also know how this team has looked over 4 games, and it hasn't been good. At some point, something has to give.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

I mentioned defense a lot in my pg grades last night. When IT is trying he's a much better defender. When he's not, which is far too frequent, he's just as bad.

In terms of their impact on the team, it's not like we didn't see IT lead the team last year. We never got cousins good scoring opportunities and every one else basically watched each other dribble around. Why make the change to bring in a pass first point guard and different offense if we were just going to abandon it early in the season.

Do you honestly believe IT has changed his game to be more team oriented on offense? Or that Malone's system will change that?

I hated losing Evans too and remain totally unconvinced that GV or any pass first pg are the keys to offensive success. We have too many bad players, especially on d, to establish any kind of rhythm. But I'm not ready to go back to watching the pizza guy excel while the rest of the team, especially cousins, flounders.

I would abandon it. It's not working so far. If Malone decides to not abandon it then fine. If you don't want to abandon it than that's fine too. I've made my judgment, and maybe I've made it too early. We'll have to wait and see on that point, but my judgment is based on more than just these 4 games. It's based on how IT has looked better than GV in the preseason, and its based on the track record of both players, and the rest of the players in our starting lineup. GV is a poor defender and always has been. Same goes for Thornton and Patterson. So in that regard, I think it's fine to say that this isn't working defensively because it shouldn't have worked defensively in the first place. It was likely to fail.

On Thomas last season - This is a different roster, Thomas may not have changed, but this roster needs Thomas more than last years roster did. Thornton has regressed and now Cousins has no help scoring the basketball. Last year he had Evans, now he has no one. Last year he would have been taking away shots from Evans and Cousins, now there should be enough shots for Cousins and Thomas. Should. I don't know that for sure, but I want to see it. I want to see if we can start a game without going down 10 points by the second quarter.

And through 4 games Cousins has virtually the same numbers across the board that he had last season playing with that no good ball hog Isaiah Thomas And that's not a compliment to Thomas, it's just to say that if GV is supposed to be helping Cousins, he hasn't done that yet.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

To be fair, Isaiah Thomas hasn't had the chance under good ownership and coaching, and I don't know if we can say Cousins and Thomas didn't 'work'. Can we define 'work' ? Did Cousins play well? I'd say yes, Cousins had a pretty good year last season. Did the team win? No, but there are so many factors that go into that.

You think that new ownership and coaching are going to change the way that Isaiah Thomas plays? Because I don't.

Isaiah Thomas is Nate Robinson. He's Bobby Jackson. He's J.J. Barea. On a really good day, he's Jason Terry. You don't start Jason Terry.

 

[pshn80]

Salmons can't shoot or score. Don't be silly. He only gets points because teams let him.

Come on.

 

[pshn80]

Until such time as Vivek Ranadive and Pete D'Alessandro decide that DeMarcus Cousins is no longer our franchise player, the one thing that Greivis Vasquez can do that Isaiah Thomas can't is more important to the long-term goals of this club than what Thomas can do that Vasquez can't.

We don't know whether Vasquez/Cousins will actually work; four games isn't enough time to have made that determination. But, since we've already seen Thomas/Cousins, and we know that it doesn't, I'm not prepared to give up on Vasquez just yet.

I don't know either. Right now I don't even know if Cousins will work. So far he hasn't even proven that he can play as many minutes as his lousy showing last year. Sorry. Now where we're we?

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

You think that new ownership and coaching are going to change the way that Isaiah Thomas plays? Because I don't.

Isaiah Thomas is Nate Robinson. He's Bobby Jackson. He's J.J. Barea. On a really good day, he's Jason Terry. You don't start Jason Terry.

Not change the way he plays entirely, but change the way they want the offense to run? sure. If a play calls for Cousins getting the ball, Cousins should get the ball, etc.

He's trending more towards Jason Terry than those others guys, and Terry was a starting guard for a lot of seasons. Unsuccessful seasons, but the point being he started until someone better came along. We don't have anyone better. We don't have anyone even close to being better.

Yes, you don't start Jason Terry when you are trying to win a championship, but you don't start 9 PPG, 3.8 AST, .423 FG% PG either.

 

[Padrino]

I would abandon it. It's not working so far. If Malone decides to not abandon it then fine. If you don't want to abandon it than that's fine too. I've made my judgment, and maybe I've made it too early. We'll have to wait and see on that point, but my judgment is based on more than just these 4 games. It's based on how IT has looked better than GV in the preseason, and its based on the track record of both players, and the rest of the players in our starting lineup. GV is a poor defender and always has been. Same goes for Thornton and Patterson. So in that regard, I think it's fine to say that this isn't working defensively because it shouldn't have worked defensively in the first place. It was likely to fail.

On Thomas last season - This is a different roster, Thomas may not have changed, but this roster needs Thomas more than last years roster did. Thornton has regressed and now Cousins has no help scoring the basketball. Last year he had Evans, now he has no one. Last year he would have been taking away shots from Evans and Cousins, now there should be enough shots for Cousins and Thomas. Should. I don't know that for sure, but I want to see it. I want to see if we can start a game without going down 10 points by the second quarter.

And through 4 games Cousins has virtually the same numbers across the board that he had last season playing with that no good ball hog Isaiah Thomas And that's not a compliment to Thomas, it's just to say that if GV is supposed to be helping Cousins, he hasn't done that yet.

four games is never enough time to determine whether or not to abandon anything in the nba, particularly when the primary reason "it's not working so far" is a simple lack of familiarity/chemistry. vasquez absolutely needs to improve his defensive effort. that is without question. he's been beyond atrocious on the more important side of the ball. but IT is flourishing precisely because he's not being asked to do anything other than play like IT. he did it last year. he did it during his rookie season while beating out jimmer for minutes. asking IT to go out and get his isn't exactly a tall order, and the kings are not asking a similar feat of vasquez. they're asking for a much more difficult feat: develop a successful chemistry with demarcus cousins, and find a way to help put the kings' mediocre shooters in a position to hit shots...

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

Until such time as Vivek Ranadive and Pete D'Alessandro decide that DeMarcus Cousins is no longer our franchise player, the one thing that Greivis Vasquez can do that Isaiah Thomas can't is more important to the long-term goals of this club than what Thomas can do that Vasquez can't.

We don't know whether Vasquez/Cousins will actually work; four games isn't enough time to have made that determination. But, since we've already seen Thomas/Cousins, and we know that it doesn't, I'm not prepared to give up on Vasquez just yet.

There's no doubt that Cousins' development is the #1 priority for this franchise moving forward. However, I would contest that Vasquez starting is the preferable option to achieve that development.


Right now, Cousins is still raw and learning how to deal with life in the post as the #1 option. There are going to be nights when he destroys the competition and other nights when he’s going to struggle. The starting lineup, as presently constructed, is ENTIRELY structured so that Cousins gets all of the offensive attention in the post. While this may sound great on paper, in practice I don’t think it’s the best move going forward.


First problem is that while Cousins is the clear #1 guy, there is zero reliable shot creation on the perimeter. Vasquez, as good of a passer as he is, is not a good scorer; even last year in his breakout season he was woefully inefficient at scoring. So I don’t think rust and injury is an excuse. He’s just not that kind of player. Yesterday, in the first quarter when Cousins was being triple teamed, we were able to jump out to a lead because Salmons magically turned back the clock to the tune of 9 points and 3 assists. Obviously, that was unsustainable. Salmons dropped back to earth and the entire offense collapsed. Vasquez will never be a great threat to create his own shot on the perimeter. Thornton is strictly spot-up and transition. Patterson can only catch-and-shoot. So what happens when Cousins is struggling offensively? There is zero help. Frustration builds up and noticeably affects Cousins both offensively and defensively in terms of patience.


The second problem is that everything else is completely compromised in order to make this model work. We are sacrificing defense with Vasquez on the floor, even though Isaiah goes through bouts of inconsistent effort on that end. We are sacrificing the development of McLemore due to his erratic up-and-down nature for Thornton’s mediocre predictability. We are sacrificing JT’s defense and rebounding for Patterson’s (theoretical) ability to stretch the floor. I would argue that at the 1, 2, and 4 we are starting lesser players, completely selling out for the sake of this option.


Now it could be argued that its better that Cousins takes his lumps now since we are going to need him to learn how to deal with being the #1 option night-in and night-out. However, this ignores the fact that in order for the Kings to become a great team again, we are going to need a consistent perimeter scoring option as Cousins’ #2 guy. Putting four offensively inert pylons around Cousins is never going to be a successful model. It just won’t. Even if Cousins becomes the 25/12 superstar everybody envisions, he’s going to need help from a perimeter shot-creator if the Kings are ever going to be anything other than a mediocre team.


Yes, that perimeter option is likely not on the roster right now. Yes, Isaiah will probably come back down to earth at some point. Yes, Isaiah is most likely better off as a sixth man sparkplug off the bench. But it is preferable to use Isaiah, right now, as a placeholder second option in the starting lineup until we do get that second perimeter creator. For Isaiah’s faults (overdribbling) can be mitigated somewhat through scheme and coaching that continues to emphasize Demarcus as the #1 option. But its critical to have someone take some defensive pressure off of Cousins so that he’s not facing triple teams every night with zero relief on the perimeter. It would be far more preferable to place Demarcus in a model where he shares the ball with a placeholder #2 option (Isaiah) than continue to put him in a position where the opponent can throw the kitchen sink at Demarcus without any repercussions. The latter doesn’t aid in Cousins’ development.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Yes, you don't start Jason Terry when you are trying to win a championship, but you don't start 9 PPG, 3.8 AST, .423 FG% PG either.

Oh really?

 

[Glenn]

Until such time as Vivek Ranadive and Pete D'Alessandro decide that DeMarcus Cousins is no longer our franchise player, the one thing that Greivis Vasquez can do that Isaiah Thomas can't is more important to the long-term goals of this club than what Thomas can do that Vasquez can't.

We don't know whether Vasquez/Cousins will actually work; four games isn't enough time to have made that determination. But, since we've already seen Thomas/Cousins, and we know that it doesn't, I'm not prepared to give up on Vasquez just yet.

Cleverly put and I agree.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Oh really?

This is mostly a joke, I'm assuming. Well played.

 

[sdballer]

This is mostly a joke, I'm assuming. Well played.

With the exception of Parker who can obviously score, but within a well controlled system, name the last championship team that featured a score first pg.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

With the exception of Parker who can obviously score, but within a well controlled system, name the last championship team that featured a score first pg.

Miami had Dwayne Wade playing point gaurd in their first Championship. A similar style of play to Tyreke Evans when he played at the point and won the ROY

 

[sdballer]

Miami had Dwayne Wade playing point gaurd in their first Championship. A similar style of play to Tyreke Evans when he played at the point and won the ROY

They started Jason Williams that year.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

With the exception of Parker who can obviously score, but within a well controlled system, name the last championship team that featured a score first pg.

Is that what this is about, though? Does it have to be all or nothing?

Do we have to continue to trot out a poor starting unit just because the other options do not present an 'NBA Blueprint' championship lineup? If your questions is 'Can IT win a championship as a starting point guard' my answer would be no.

This team doesn't win the title either way. If you think Vasquez is a championship caliber point guard than I think you will be let down. Yes, teams win championships with role playing point guards who excel at things other than scoring. Vasquez major problem is that the only thing he excels at requires the ball to be in his hands at all times, which is what a scoring guard needs as well.

The issue is Vasquez doesn't do anything else. Most of those guys bring a few other things to the table. The ability to spread the floor (Jason Kidd, Mario Chalmers, Chauncey Billups) or superb defensive skills (Jason Kidd 'in prime', Mario Chalmers, Chauncey Billups, Rajon Rondo 'defense has been getting worse')

Those guys have limited roles in the team overall. You can't give Vasquez a limited role because he doesn't do anything else. He needs the ball just like Thomas does. If Vasquez isn't handling the ball then there is no reason to play him.

It isn't about Championships this season, it's about improving, developing, analyzing, and fixing the culture. If we keep playing like this all of those things suffer. We need to be better this year and I think Thomas makes us better. And I'll tell you what, if GV doesn't start playing better the chemistry is going to suffer. He's playing soft, slow, etc. Cousins has a short fuse, and GV's play is already getting to him.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

With the exception of Parker who can obviously score, but within a well controlled system, name the last championship team that featured a score first pg.

Starting PGs since 2000:
Chalmers
Chalmers
Kidd
Fisher
Fisher
Rondo
Parker
Williams
Parker
Billups
Parker
Fisher
Fisher
Fisher

There's not much really conclusive about that list. One thing to note nobody during their championship seasons averaged more than 6 assists per game. Also no true superstars in that list.

 

[randymoss1881]

Is it time to maybe see if the Bucks are regretting signing Larry Sanders to that big deal yet?

We won't be able to trade until the draft cause the bucks will want our pick. Our 1st and salmons for sanders on draft night

 

[sdballer]

Is that what this is about, though? Does it have to be all or nothing?

Do we have to continue to trot out a poor starting unit just because the other options do not present an 'NBA Blueprint' championship lineup? If your questions is 'Can IT win a championship as a starting point guard' my answer would be no.

This team doesn't win the title either way. If you think Vasquez is a championship caliber point guard than I think you will be let down. Yes, teams win championships with role playing point guards who excel at things other than scoring. Vasquez major problem is that the only thing he excels at requires the ball to be in his hands at all times, which is what a scoring guard needs as well.

The issue is Vasquez doesn't do anything else. Most of those guys bring a few other things to the table. The ability to spread the floor (Jason Kidd, Mario Chalmers, Chauncey Billups) or superb defensive skills (Jason Kidd 'in prime', Mario Chalmers, Chauncey Billups, Rajon Rondo 'defense has been getting worse')

Those guys have limited roles in the team overall. You can't give Vasquez a limited role because he doesn't do anything else. He needs the ball just like Thomas does. If Vasquez isn't handling the ball then there is no reason to play him.

It isn't about Championships this season, it's about improving, developing, analyzing, and fixing the culture. If we keep playing like this all of those things suffer. We need to be better this year and I think Thomas makes us better. And I'll tell you what, if GV doesn't start playing better the chemistry is going to suffer. He's playing soft, slow, etc. Cousins has a short fuse, and GV's play is already getting to him.

Of course not. I don't even think championship make up is important right now. I was just responding to a question that asked about championships specifically. I don't think either one of them is an ideal starting pg for a champion, unless the make up of the rest of the team significantly changed.

My bigger issue is team and system development and the pg that is best for that. I just don't think an undersized, defensively challenged score first pg is best for the team, especially DMC. If we were going to go the score first pg route, I'd much rather have just retained Reke and put him in that role.

I think you and I are actually in violent agreement. I'm not a huge fan of the need for "pass-first, pass-only" pg but its the direction the team decided to go. Until we have figured out how to play as a team, I'm just really hesitant to go back to hero ball, which is where IT excels.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Is that what this is about, though? Does it have to be all or nothing?

Do we have to continue to trot out a poor starting unit just because the other options do not present an 'NBA Blueprint' championship lineup? If your questions is 'Can IT win a championship as a starting point guard' my answer would be no.

This team doesn't win the title either way. If you think Vasquez is a championship caliber point guard than I think you will be let down. Yes, teams win championships with role playing point guards who excel at things other than scoring. Vasquez major problem is that the only thing he excels at requires the ball to be in his hands at all times, which is what a scoring guard needs as well.

The issue is Vasquez doesn't do anything else. Most of those guys bring a few other things to the table. The ability to spread the floor (Jason Kidd, Mario Chalmers, Chauncey Billups) or superb defensive skills (Jason Kidd 'in prime', Mario Chalmers, Chauncey Billups, Rajon Rondo 'defense has been getting worse')

Those guys have limited roles in the team overall. You can't give Vasquez a limited role because he doesn't do anything else. He needs the ball just like Thomas does. If Vasquez isn't handling the ball then there is no reason to play him.

It isn't about Championships this season, it's about improving, developing, analyzing, and fixing the culture. If we keep playing like this all of those things suffer. We need to be better this year and I think Thomas makes us better. And I'll tell you what, if GV doesn't start playing better the chemistry is going to suffer. He's playing soft, slow, etc. Cousins has a short fuse, and GV's play is already getting to him.

I disagree with pretty much one hundred percent of that last paragraph. I don't actually believe that Vasquez's play is what is "getting" to Cousins. I think that Cousins not getting the ball is what's getting to Cousins (I know that there are a lot of WNBA-haters here who won't even know who I'm talking about, but Cousins reminds me a lot of Angel McCoughtry). Vasquez is the only player on the court who actually looks for Cousins first, second and third, and then looks for his own shot, if Cousins isn't where he's supposed to be. The problem occurs when Cousins doesn't immediately get into position, and Vasquez rotates the ball, and the rest of the team goes, "Hey, I got the ball; it must be shooting time!"

Thomas doesn't actually make anyone on the team better: not in terms of wins and losses, not in terms of getting his teammates open shots, not really in terms of anything. Vasquez, at the moment, appears to only make one player on the team better... BUT, if, at the end of the season, the only thing that's happened is that Cousins has developed into an All-Star/borderline All-Star, then the investment in Vasquez will have paid off.

 

[Padrino]

I disagree with pretty much one hundred percent of that last paragraph. I don't actually believe that Vasquez's play is what is "getting" to Cousins. I think that Cousins not getting the ball is what's getting to Cousins (I know that there are a lot of WNBA-haters here who won't even know who I'm talking about, but Cousins reminds me a lot of Angel McCoughtry). Vasquez is the only player on the court who actually looks for Cousins first, second and third, and then looks for his own shot, if Cousins isn't where he's supposed to be. The problem occurs when Cousins doesn't immediately get into position, and Vasquez rotates the ball, and the rest of the team goes, "Hey, I got the ball; it must be shooting time!"

Thomas doesn't actually make anyone on the team better: not in terms of wins and losses, not in terms of getting his teammates open shots, not really in terms of anything. Vasquez, at the moment, appears to only make one player on the team better... BUT, if, at the end of the season, the only thing that's happened is that Cousins has developed into an All-Star/borderline All-Star, then the investment in Vasquez will have paid off.

indeed, and i'm kind of baffled at kf.com's general inability to see this. it's certainly no coincidence that DMC had his best game in the home opener, when greivis vasquez was able to log 36 minutes by giving a solid effort, defensively. he only notched 4 assists against denver, but getting the ball to demarcus where he can go to work will often not result in an assist. vasquez's presence in the starting lineup is not statistical, but rather a measure of his ability to prioritize, something no other king accomplishes on a regular basis. every game since then, however, vasquez's defense has backslid to atrocious levels, and thomas has received the lion's share of minutes. we've seen DMC's production decrease accordingly. it's not rocket science, and it's definitely too early to bench vasquez. coach needs to get on him about his defensive effort, and vasquez needs to improve in his defensive effort so that he can stay on the floor long enough to help get DMC going...

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

I disagree with pretty much one hundred percent of that last paragraph. I don't actually believe that Vasquez's play is what is "getting" to Cousins. I think that Cousins not getting the ball is what's getting to Cousins (I know that there are a lot of WNBA-haters here who won't even know who I'm talking about, but Cousins reminds me a lot of Angel McCoughtry). Vasquez is the only player on the court who actually looks for Cousins first, second and third, and then looks for his own shot, if Cousins isn't where he's supposed to be. The problem occurs when Cousins doesn't immediately get into position, and Vasquez rotates the ball, and the rest of the team goes, "Hey, I got the ball; it must be shooting time!"

Thomas doesn't actually make anyone on the team better: not in terms of wins and losses, not in terms of getting his teammates open shots, not really in terms of anything. Vasquez, at the moment, appears to only make one player on the team better... BUT, if, at the end of the season, the only thing that's happened is that Cousins has developed into an All-Star/borderline All-Star, then the investment in Vasquez will have paid off.

When GV and DMC are on the court together, and Cousins doesn't have the ball, Vasquez usually does. So who is Cousins upset with about not getting the ball? Who is the distributer responsible for not getting him the ball? Cousins was visibly upset last night multiple times, and at least of one them was after a poor play by Vasquez. I'm not trying to make a mountain out of a molehill here, my point is that this starting unit, as a unit, is starting to get to him. The poor plays, the missed open looks, the bad passes, etc. He needs help (not direct help, but help sharing the scoring load) and he isn't getting any. So where can that help come from?

Isaiah Thomas is the only place. It's our only card. If you replace PP for JT, Thompson will help Cousins on the glass and on defense, but the upgrade is marginal. Outlaw vs. Salmons is a wash. McLemore and Thornton is close, McLemore has played better this season, and has looked good early playing with IT.

What we do have is one point guard scoring and completely outplaying the starter. It is the only way to tangibly upgrade the starting lineup. You say that Thomas is doing nothing to make the team better, which is fine, I disagree with you, but whatever. Maybe he would make the team better in terms of wins and losses if he was in the game before we go down 10+ points. Impossible to tell because it hasn't happened. I would also argue that his play (fight, hustle, energy) is contagious, but that is hard to quantify.

And I actually think Cousins is getting the ball enough. There are some possessions were he should get the ball and he doesn't, and some where he does get the ball and shouldn't. I mean, how much more can we ask this guy to do? He has the highest USG% on the team. He takes the most shots, he plays the most minutes, he gets the most rebounds, he scores the most points, etc. We could certainly do a better job getting him the ball in better spots, and some of that is on him to get in better position. I do think Cousins is good enough to be good with any point guard. Like I said before, his numbers this year with GV so far are almost identical to last years with Thomas.

 

[Glenn]

When GV and DMC are on the court together, and Cousins doesn't have the ball, Vasquez usually does. So who is Cousins upset with about not getting the ball? Who is the distributer responsible for not getting him the ball? Cousins was visibly upset last night multiple times, and at least of one them was after a poor play by Vasquez. I'm not trying to make a mountain out of a molehill here, my point is that this starting unit, as a unit, is starting to get to him. The poor plays, the missed open looks, the bad passes, etc. He needs help (not direct help, but help sharing the scoring load) and he isn't getting any. So where can that help come from?

Isaiah Thomas is the only place. It's our only card. If you replace PP for JT, Thompson will help Cousins on the glass and on defense, but the upgrade is marginal. Outlaw vs. Salmons is a wash. McLemore and Thornton is close, McLemore has played better this season, and has looked good early playing with IT.

What we do have is one point guard scoring and completely outplaying the starter. It is the only way to tangibly upgrade the starting lineup. You say that Thomas is doing nothing to make the team better, which is fine, I disagree with you, but whatever. Maybe he would make the team better in terms of wins and losses if he was in the game before we go down 10+ points. Impossible to tell because it hasn't happened. I would also argue that his play (fight, hustle, energy) is contagious, but that is hard to quantify.

And I actually think Cousins is getting the ball enough. There are some possessions were he should get the ball and he doesn't, and some where he does get the ball and shouldn't. I mean, how much more can we ask this guy to do? He has the highest USG% on the team. He takes the most shots, he plays the most minutes, he gets the most rebounds, he scores the most points, etc. We could certainly do a better job getting him the ball in better spots, and some of that is on him to get in better position. I do think Cousins is good enough to be good with any point guard. Like I said before, his numbers this year with GV so far are almost identical to last years with Thomas.

You don't think Ben is a source of scoring help? I would rather have him helping Cuz than IT. IT can take care of himself. Cuz needs room that a long distance shooter can give him.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

indeed, and i'm kind of baffled at kf.com's general inability to see this. it's certainly no coincidence that DMC had his best game in the home opener, when greivis vasquez was able to log 36 minutes by giving a solid effort, defensively. he only notched 4 assists against denver, but getting the ball to demarcus where he can go to work will often not result in an assist. vasquez's presence in the starting lineup is not statistical, but rather a measure of his ability to prioritize, something no other king accomplishes on a regular basis. every game since then, however, vasquez's defense has backslid to atrocious levels, and thomas has received the lion's share of minutes. we've seen DMC's production decrease accordingly. it's not rocket science, and it's definitely too early to bench vasquez. coach needs to get on him about his defensive effort, and vasquez needs to improve in his defensive effort so that he can stay on the floor long enough to help get DMC going...

Cousins dominated Denver and LAC because both decided to try and stop him 1 on 1. Result: Cousins putting up huge numbers leading to a win and a near upset.

Golden State and Atlanta both aggressively double and triple teamed Cousins every time he got the ball on the low block. Result: Cousins unable to score inside and no relief coming from the perimeter. Vasquez is not a good scorer, and never was. Neither is Salmons at this point in his career. This is a fundamental flaw in the starting lineup not likely to be mitigated by chemistry and shaking off rust.

And worse, its bad for Cousins' development. He's not going to get any better if he keeps seeing triple teams in the post knowing that kicking it out to a punchless crew is a terrible option.

 

[The_Jamal]

Until such time as Vivek Ranadive and Pete D'Alessandro decide that DeMarcus Cousins is no longer our franchise player, the one thing that Greivis Vasquez can do that Isaiah Thomas can't is more important to the long-term goals of this club than what Thomas can do that Vasquez can't.

We don't know whether Vasquez/Cousins will actually work; four games isn't enough time to have made that determination. But, since we've already seen Thomas/Cousins, and we know that it doesn't, I'm not prepared to give up on Vasquez just yet.

Have we seen Thomas and Cousins? We've seen Thomas-Reke-Thornton and Cousins under Coach Dumb ball. We didn't have a coach who understood you can't have 4 shoot-first mentality players. But perhaps a lineup of IT-Ben-Mbah-JT-Cousins? Where you have 2 defined offensive players who can create on their own and 3 guys who know their role and will stay out of the way offensively? Why not try that?

And this Cousins not getting enough ball is completely stupid. He has the 2nd highest USG in the league! The entire NBA! It's almost physically impossible to feature him more than we have. IT is and can be a side-kick for Cousins. Especially on this roster full of jump-shooters, who can (and have) stayed out of the way of IT and Cousins controlling the ball.

Defenses need someone else on the floor to fear. You throw IT and McLemore into the starting 5, and all of a sudden you have 2 big time energy/hustle players who push the ball down your throat. They change games with their hustle and defenses have to account for it.