We are playing a SG there.
Who's the real starter?
- Thread starter Bricklayer
- Start date
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
Kingster
Hall of Famer
This is where I lean as well. It's not so much that McLemore couldn't match up against a lot of threes; it's that he's going through rookieitis, and I don't think I want him even more confused by having to learn both the three and two position. If Malone wants to be conservative by not starting him and playing McLemore a certain number of minutes, it makes sense that he would also be conservative in giving McLemore only a certain number of assignments to perform.
PS Given the brain-bruising experience of using Tyreke at several positions, and the accompanying discord and acrimony on this board because of it, it's hard to be objective on this subject.
Chupacabra
Starter
What we've seen so far is the worst play that we'll see this year. Everything is new and most of the team isn't making shots. We also played against 2 of the top 4 teams in the western conference. Guys will start making more shots. Every opponent won't be the warriors or the clippers.
Whether he was on board with the move or not, Malone was in Golden State when they shipped out Monta Ellis for Bogut. Yes, it gave the W's a legit big man at a discount (remember Bogut was injured at the time) but just as importantly or possibly more important was that it shifted Steph Curry from SG to PG and Klay Thompson from SF to SG.
It was that move away from small ball and to a bigger, more traditional lineup that changed the Warriors fortunes. I can't see Malone trying the opposite tactic with much hope of success.
C
Cold
Guest
What the heck happened to Pattrick Patterson? I genuinely thought he would do okay starting at the 3 spot. Hard to believe he keeps struggling like this. He's a natural shooter.
Padrino
All-Star
indeed. this is a team full of jump shooters who don't shoot the ball particularly well...
Fear the Putin
Starter
then we're fabulous
Well, that's just not true. We're just ice cold right now.
Hadlowe
Starter
Salmons best shooting days are three years behind him. I don't know if he will break 40% field goal percentage again. I see Outlaw as the better option there, except he is not starting material. Mbah a Moute is the Chuck Hayes of small forwards. He will defend his guy well and rebound well, but heaven help you if you need him to knock down a shot more than 10 feet from the rim.
For SG, the rookie is going to be inconsistent. He will probably shoot 40-43% from the field this year while he learns when he can get a shot off and when he needs to move the ball. Thornton changed his shot for a faster release in the offseason a year ago, and hasn't had the same level of consistency or efficiency he used to since then. Unless he can get to the rim more often, we might see a sub-40% year from the field from him. Jimmer is out of the lineup, which is largely fine since he isn't a natural fit in the backcourt with any of our guards or small forwards.
I think JT is the better player out of Patterson and JT, but you can't always play your best players at every position as starters. JT is our only other player with center-height. If you start him with Cousins, you are going to end up running Hayes at center, which I have real problems doing.
SCKingsfan
Bench
I don't know if you all remember what happened at the beginning of last year. Smart, too, preached defense, and the first couple of games of the season, we saw a good amount of energy on the defensive end. But, similarly, our percentages were low, and we weren't winning. So rather than stay the course and learn how to bring the offense around while maintaining higher intensity (albeit frenetic) defense, we saw a shift to a slackening in D and a focus on scoring. I just hope Malone stays the course toward intensity and skill development on D, and lets the players learn how to make that transition from a more intense and mentally-focused D to a necessarily-relaxed, ball-movement oriented offense. I think the shooting issues are partly mental/psychological (lack of comfort and "flow" with a new style/system of play) and probably partly physical on some level in terms of new demands of the transition from D to O.
Gary
All-Star
By the stats it would seem that ;
PG- IT
SG- MT
SF- Outlaw
PF- JT
C- Cuz
But I believe that we should have;
PG - GV
SG - MLM
SF - Salmons
PF - JT
C - Cuz
I don't think MT, IT or Outlaw should be starting because their "me first" attitude could be screwing up the chemistry of the starting lineup. MLM is off the ball, Salmons can help distribute. Those two styles fit better with Cuz and GV. JT should be starting. He's just flat out better than PP.
PG- IT
SG- MT
SF- Outlaw
PF- JT
C- Cuz
But I believe that we should have;
PG - GV
SG - MLM
SF - Salmons
PF - JT
C - Cuz
I don't think MT, IT or Outlaw should be starting because their "me first" attitude could be screwing up the chemistry of the starting lineup. MLM is off the ball, Salmons can help distribute. Those two styles fit better with Cuz and GV. JT should be starting. He's just flat out better than PP.
Here's the rotation I'd run if I were Malone.
JT
Cousins
Vasquez
Ben
Jimmer / MT
Cousins
Luc
Outlaw
Ben
IT
JT
Luc
Outlaw
Jimmer / MT
IT
It's a balanced 8 man rotation where we don't have to see a minute of Salmons, MT, PPat, Landry, or Chuck while not losing anything they bring and while gaining things they don't bring (rebounding, defense, shot making). You can switch Luc and Outlaw and/or JT and Cousins to your liking. If you're a Jimmer hater, you can replace him with MT. The trade off would be Jimmer's play-making and better shooting for whatever MT brings. Who has a better rotation?
JT
Cousins
Vasquez
Ben
Jimmer / MT
Cousins
Luc
Outlaw
Ben
IT
JT
Luc
Outlaw
Jimmer / MT
IT
It's a balanced 8 man rotation where we don't have to see a minute of Salmons, MT, PPat, Landry, or Chuck while not losing anything they bring and while gaining things they don't bring (rebounding, defense, shot making). You can switch Luc and Outlaw and/or JT and Cousins to your liking. If you're a Jimmer hater, you can replace him with MT. The trade off would be Jimmer's play-making and better shooting for whatever MT brings. Who has a better rotation?
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Padrino
All-Star
but it is true, on top of the kings being ice cold right now.
jimmer fredette - career 38% 3-pt shooting
isaiah thomas - career 37% 3-pt shooting
marcus thornton - career 36% 3-pt shooting
john salmons - career 36% 3-pt shooting
patrick patterson - career 36% 3-pt shooting
travis outlaw - career 34% 3-pt shooting
greivis vasquez - career 32% 3-pt shooting
luc richard mbah a moute - career 29% 3-pt shooting
it's just a big pile of mediocrity. is it downright awful? no, but, as i said, this team is full of jump shooters who just don't shoot the ball particularly well. hell, their best 3-pt shooter will rarely even see the court because of a variety of limitations. you can make the argument that travis outlaw doesn't deserve to be on the court, and mclemore is still only a rookie. he's not "nba ready," and he will be unreliable in his first couple of seasons...
now, you can dive into the mid-range percentages and find some solid shooting from patterson, thompson, and vasquez, but that's about it. this team is simply not built to win games with it's shooting ability. if you successfully sign andre iguodala or retain tyreke evans, the mediocre jump shooting percentages are buoyed by drive-and-kick penetration, but, as constructed, i do not expect this particular roster to shoot the ball with anything resembling consistency. even with the vaunted "pass-first PG" in the starting lineup, easy baskets are going to be hard to come by without regular penetration...
in my opinion, the kings' best offensive games this season will result from either 1) DMC drawing regular double- and triple-teams, thus leaving the kings' mediocre shooters open, 2) the kings' defensive effort creating easy baskets on the break, or 3) the rare night when everything's falling. while i expect a big season from cousins, he's the man now, and defenses are going to design their gameplan around stopping him, and only him. 'reke's gone; there's no one else in the starting unit to pick up the slack, unless thornton wakes up from whatever malaise he's in...
and even if thornton starts throwing up 15ppg or more, defenses don't have much reason to be afraid of him. really, they're not afraid of any king except demarcus cousins. that said, cousins deserves their attention. he's at the top of the scouting report, and he'll be tough to stop. but he will be stopped from time to time. he'll receive triple-teams. the calls won't go his way. he'll get frustrated. and i'm hardly counting on mediocre jump shooting to bail the team out...
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I've seen this a couple times and it confuses me. Does Outlaw really play a more selfish game than Salmons? I agree he isn't as good a passer but I never get the selfish impression from him. And that's just on the offensive side of the ball. Outlaw hustles a great deal more than Salmons does on d.
Kingsfan23
All-Star
Ben hasn't been extraordinary either except for his respectable game against the Warriors.
Kingsfan23
All-Star
starting at the 3 spot?
MassachusettsKingsFan
All-Star
The sample size is just fine considering these numbers only SUPPORT what most of us knew going into this season. We hoped for better, but we knew this.
We knew Jason Thompson was better then Patrick Patterson. He's always been better.
We knew Isaiah Thomas was better than Greivis Vasquez, or at least we knew he was more capable of putting up better statistics. We hoped Vasquez would make the team run its offense better, but IT would always win the numbers battle.
We DIDN'T know Marcus Thornton got his talent stolen by the Monstars, but I don't know how you are supposed to predict that.
And John Salmons has never been good, so it was always conceivable that someone could play small forward better than him.
That being said, I fully support a complete swap in those 4 players. Cause why the hell not? The potential of our current starting lineup isn't any higher.
And as much as IT shoots the ball ... as frustrating at that is, he is the second best scorer on this team right now. I thought it would be Thornton but he's looked completely off all year. If we put Isaiah Thomas into the starting lineup expecting (and needing) his offense, maybe it will make it easier to tolerate. Because we do need his offense, by the way. This starting lineup cannot score, which I find surprising. They also cannot defend, and a lot of that is on Vasquez. He can't stay in front of anyone.
And I have never been high on Isaiah Thomas. Never ever ever ever ever, but right now ... I just don't know that we have a better option.
One issue we have right now is that the starting lineup cannot shoot to save its life. Cousins has no one to kick it out too. Insert Outlaw (.500 3P%), Thomas (.545 3P%) and McLemore (about even with MT) ... you can at least do something with that. The 3 point shooting numbers by our starting lineup is pathetic. If you can't shoot you can't score.
We knew Jason Thompson was better then Patrick Patterson. He's always been better.
We knew Isaiah Thomas was better than Greivis Vasquez, or at least we knew he was more capable of putting up better statistics. We hoped Vasquez would make the team run its offense better, but IT would always win the numbers battle.
We DIDN'T know Marcus Thornton got his talent stolen by the Monstars, but I don't know how you are supposed to predict that.
And John Salmons has never been good, so it was always conceivable that someone could play small forward better than him.
That being said, I fully support a complete swap in those 4 players. Cause why the hell not? The potential of our current starting lineup isn't any higher.
And as much as IT shoots the ball ... as frustrating at that is, he is the second best scorer on this team right now. I thought it would be Thornton but he's looked completely off all year. If we put Isaiah Thomas into the starting lineup expecting (and needing) his offense, maybe it will make it easier to tolerate. Because we do need his offense, by the way. This starting lineup cannot score, which I find surprising. They also cannot defend, and a lot of that is on Vasquez. He can't stay in front of anyone.
And I have never been high on Isaiah Thomas. Never ever ever ever ever, but right now ... I just don't know that we have a better option.
One issue we have right now is that the starting lineup cannot shoot to save its life. Cousins has no one to kick it out too. Insert Outlaw (.500 3P%), Thomas (.545 3P%) and McLemore (about even with MT) ... you can at least do something with that. The 3 point shooting numbers by our starting lineup is pathetic. If you can't shoot you can't score.
Can we make suggesting playing a guy out of position a ban-able offense?
Seriously, this team has mismatched, overmatched parts, especially on the defensive end. Playing them out of position makes those problems worse, not better. Make the most of this year. Develop the guys most likely to stick around. Try to move the parts that don't fit.
Thomas has been effective mostly BECAUSE he's often playing with a lineup that can't score so he's allowed and needed to basically look almost exclusively for his own shot. GV starts because ideally his job is to help feed Cousins and like it or not, our other "best" complimentary offensive players. Starting Thomas potentially robs Cuz of his best looks and mostly wastes whatever value GV brings to the team while also depriving IT of his best ability to create his own offense.
this isnt about putting the best 5 out there to start the game...its about making the puzzle fit.....you have to start vasquez to get the cuz the ball early and hes been passing well, but no one can hit a shot! having IT on the bench as the sixth man gives him the freedom to play his game(gunner) and please stop with starting JT.....if we start JT, then you have ppat and chuck coming off the bench= no rebounds! its better start ppat next to cousins who is a great rebounder.....i like the lineup the way it is...besides salmons and the SF position, at this point i hope LMam gets healthy or i would even put outlaw out there...i think salmons may be a better fit on the second unit, gives IT another ball handler...at shooting guard... i wouldnt mind seeing bmac starting... he may be better fit with the starting unit, but to me its a wash...
MassachusettsKingsFan
All-Star
I don't know. I disagree. What you are describing is certainly possible. It makes sense on paper, but it isn't necessarily happening on the court right now. A few points.
-Thomas is averaging more assists than Vasquez despite playing 'in a lineup that can't score'
-Thomas is outplaying Vasquez by such a massive margin that your points do not matter. Thomas is playing THAT much better.
-Vasquez has been a train wreck defensively.
-Is it not conceivable that Cousins could get BETTER looks because there is another scoring threat on the floor? Right now he is the only guy who can score. The only guy.
-Thomas has a selfish reputation which I do believe he has earned, but if Malone's offense calls for Cousins getting the ball in the post, he should get the ball in the post regardless of who is delivering the ball to him
-If Vasquez is a better passer than Thomas, but worse at just about every conceivable basketball skill... then just how important is his passing?
-I believe that adding Outlaw + McLemore + Thompson into the starting lineup and subtracting Salmons + Thornton + Patterson leaves enough shots for Isaiah and DeMarcus. Salmons shoots more than Outlaw, Patterson shoots more than Thompson, and Thornton shoots more than McLemore. IT shoots more than GV, but it should even out.
Just some stuff to consider. I don't know the right answer, and I cannot know the right answer until Malone actually makes the move and we get a chance to see it. Remember, Thomas has never been given the opportunity to start under a competent coach either.
Check out my rotation. JT starts and either Outlaw or Luc comes off the bench to play back up PF. Both of them are good rebounders. Vasquez starts and replaces Salmons. The best shooters (Jimmer and Ben) will be on the floor with him. Jimmer or Cousins play secondary ball handler in all lineups, and I'd rather watch them with the ball than Salmons. Ben's off-the-ball speed is a treasure, so I think he should be starting too.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Can we make suggesting playing a guy out of position a ban-able offense?
This team is going nowhere this year although will probably have a better w/l record than last year because of Malone. There is NO major reason to sacrifice a player's development simply to have the best players on the court. We wasted at least one year of Tyreke's development and should have learned a lesson. This team has to look for the future and not short term gains.
Leave the lineup be for another ten games. No one is playing his role yet. How much worse will it get? Let' see first. Give D'Alessandro time to work out a trade. Of course, wisdom says don't do a trade too soon either.
Let's play another game- tell us which upcoming game will be our second win? Who will come out of the slump first? If not, what is that movie's name? ........ "They shoot horses, don't they?" Go Kings!
Let's play another game- tell us which upcoming game will be our second win? Who will come out of the slump first? If not, what is that movie's name? ........ "They shoot horses, don't they?" Go Kings!
Legitimate points and I agree its probably too early to tell. I'd just hate to see us start yanking lineups around especially when Cousins has thrived with GV getting him the ball and IT has thrived in getting his own looks. Maybe you combine the two and it works but I'm afraid it will just make both less effective.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Jimmer once scored three points on a single free throw.
I think all of his points are spot on too. I disagree with the changes he suggests though. Three games into the season with a new coach and almost entirely knew group of players playing together is much too soon to give up and move onto something different. It's really the same thing that has happened in the past with lineups and players unable to become familiar with each other due to excessive changes in the rotations. Needing to retrain our team to play a completely different way is going to take time, and even if they started to play together how they should, chances are near 100% that we still are terrible as we are missing some pretty important pieces on our roster.
Say by some miracle we end up getting the pieces we need to fill our holes in the next year or two. What's is going to make us more successful? Being able to plug those pieces into a lineup that has been learning the correct way to play while being bad? Or redoing the entire lineup and teaching them all how to play the good ball after hunting for a few easy wins this season? I would rather be bad now, and have Cousins + GV + JT(?) learn how to play a team game together and then try to plug in 1 or 2 new pieces and let them learn to fit in rather than try to retrain an entire team in a year or two once said pieces show up.
Unfortunately lots of losses can make people crave an empty W instead of a useful L. I hope Malone has the fortitude and support to keep trying to do what he said he was going to do in the preseason.
