Who will be the leader on this team?

[Telemachus]

ok, i see common sense or just plain logic wont help you. so, here are the facts. there is no other side of the coin. just hard/indisputable facts. now, kevin martin's career average

steals=.9 per game
blocks=.1 a game (are you kidding me)
rebounds. 3.6 a game
martins defense is not very good. at all!!

career 3 point shooting=.380. this is career. this previous season it was .402. career is more important. so he's technically not even close to .500

now, lets look at someone like uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, kobe!!

steals=1.5
blocks=.5
rebounds=5.2 a game

on offense, martin averages 1.6 assists per game. kobe averages over 4 a game. again, another stat that is tripled by kobe. in 2003 kobe averaged 30 points a game playing next to the most dominating force since jordan. so dont throw in things about how martin had to play robin to artest and bibby.

i am not comparing the two. but these are just some things you had to see. martin is rock bottom in just about every statistical category except for ppg (when you compare him to franchise players). this is the measuring stick ladies and gentleman. whether you like it or not. if you're going to win a ring you have to be better than kobe. or paul, or duncan, you get the point. or you're gona have to have one HECK of a roster like the celtics or 2004 pistons. our GM has alot of work to do

Last time I checked, we were talking about the LEADER of the team, NOT the franchise player. They are not the same thing.

And as for Kobe and all his numbers, this past season he actually had a team following his leadership. In all the glory years, Shaq was the leader of that team.

It is always nice when you have a great player on your team who is also the leader, but that is a rare thing. Look back at the Kings in 2002, when they should have won the title. Webber was the best player and Bibby was their clutch player, but Vlade was the team's leader. Vlade was the 3rd or 4th best player on the team that year.

2 years ago, I would argue that Corliss was the leader of the Kings. And he only got to play in half the games (should have played more IMO). Now that is not ideal by any means, but he is still the player that all the others seemed to look to.

Once again, I don't think that Martin will be the leader of the Kings. But I base that on the fact that he hasn't shown much leadership in the past other than by example (and hard work). Usually, natural leaders tend to show some inclination to lead early on. He hasn't. Garcia has shown way more leadership so far, while playing far less and not nearly as well.

I think we will just have to wait and watch to see who emerges as the leader of this team, and hope that whoever it turns out to be is a good leader.

 

[AriesMar27]

1st, has kobe been in the league for 12 years??? 2nd, kobe was winning championships 8 years ago. 2000. he immediately became one of the greatest of all time. lets not compare. bottom line is that no one can give you a reason why martin is a good player without mentioning freethrows and "3point %"

drafted 96.... and he was shaqs sidekick.... lets not get it twisted... it took him 4 years after shaq and one more all star to become the leader... missed the playoffs the first year and had 2 1st round exits after that before truly becoming the man and leading his team to the promised land... granted they ripped off the grizzlies to do it....

martin didnt have the luxury of playing with shaq in his prime for the first 8 years of his career... wade got him towards the end and still won a ring...

 

[VF21]

Last time I checked, we were talking about the LEADER of the team, NOT the franchise player. They are not the same thing.

And as for Kobe and all his numbers, this past season he actually had a team following his leadership. In all the glory years, Shaq was the leader of that team.

It is always nice when you have a great player on your team who is also the leader, but that is a rare thing. Look back at the Kings in 2002, when they should have won the title. Webber was the best player and Bibby was their clutch player, but Vlade was the team's leader. Vlade was the 3rd or 4th best player on the team that year.

2 years ago, I would argue that Corliss was the leader of the Kings. And he only got to play in half the games (should have played more IMO). Now that is not ideal by any means, but he is still the player that all the others seemed to look to.

Once again, I don't think that Martin will be the leader of the Kings. But I base that on the fact that he hasn't shown much leadership in the past other than by example (and hard work). Usually, natural leaders tend to show some inclination to lead early on. He hasn't. Garcia has shown way more leadership so far, while playing far less and not nearly as well.

I think we will just have to wait and watch to see who emerges as the leader of this team, and hope that whoever it turns out to be is a good leader.

First, welcome to the board.

Just a word of advice? Trying to argue logic with tyrant is like trying to run in quicksand.

 

[bajaden]

First, welcome to the board.

Just a word of advice? Trying to argue logic with tyrant is like trying to run in quicksand.

Helps build muscle though.

 

[kingsnation]

How about all of them? As I said in the Salmons All-Star thread, lets not discuss things that make 0 sense. Here is why Martin will not be a leader on an NBA team.

1. He's 1dimensional
2. He has a tough time creating his own shot
3. He isnt a great defender
4. He is not a verbal leader

First, there are alot of athletes who are multidimensional, can create their shot and can defend. And they ARE NOT LEADERS at all.

a leader has your respect because of his heart and his credentials

I agree with this. Leaders lead by example as well. Kevin has heart, his credentials are growing and lets not forget that only last year was his breakout year.

 

[Kingzrool]

1. He's 1dimensional
2. He has a tough time creating his own shot
3. He isnt a great defender
4. He is not a verbal leader

Tyrant clearly FAILED to argue these initial points which all are valid. All 4 of these points are solid. Unless maybe you count scoring and getting to the line as two dimensional, which I do not.

As far as leader, I will be the one and only person on the 5th page of this thread to state that Ron will be the leader. He will not be traded because GP will not trade picks/expirings for tallent and no one will offer equal value. Ron/Bill will be a King next year, bookmark it.

As far as Martin's leadership qualities, he needs to develope them ALOT if he really wants to lead. When this team contends, he will not only not be the leader, but the 2nd or (hopefully) 3rd option. He is an awesome player and I would not want him on any other team, but he needs a star/superstar to be next to in order to reach his full potential.

 

[Entity]

hmm tyrant makes Martin sound like one of the worst players in the league. Maybe we should trade him for a 2nd rounder. Maybe he won't score or anything but, at least he will be the LEADER.

 

[Aenadin]

i dont think kevin martin is THAT bad on defense just because he averages a steal per game... if were looking at spg then we can argue that T-Mac is a better defender than Bruce Bowen (careerwise WHICH IS NOT!) i dont look much at stats when it comes to defense its measured with energy.. hell you can get 3spg but at the same time get blown by your man every now and then you can get 3bpg but get dunked on twice or thrice a game... bpg spg dont add up much when it comes to defense IMO Bowen barely averages a spg and a bpg but he is considered a BETTER defender than the others... call it Dirty or what ever but hell its effective ( i dont like the guy either but got to admit it IS EFFECTIVE regardless of being clean im not advocating him)

in my personal point of View there are different types of defense, one that you steal and block the ball (but the opposing guy still gets to score once every now and then), getting physical and up your opponents face regardless if its clean and give him a hard time scoring (block or steal may not occur but the guy wont be able to score easy) and the third in my opinion is the one never even noticed as a method of "defense" and that is OFFENSE... i dont know how to explain it but i think the guys defense is to KEEP the other team behind in terms of scoring, he may just wander around the passing lanes waiting to ignite fast breaks on the other end, the ones i saw in highlight reels and mixes of martin was that he was in every fast break he was mostly the guy who is first on running to the other end, he floats around the defense waiting for a potential fast break then score there, he plays passing lanes too the way i see it ( i dont see much games but correct me if im wrong)

so basically his OFFENSE itself IS his defense

 

[VF21]

As far as leader, I will be the one and only person on the 5th page of this thread to state that Ron will be the leader. He will not be traded because GP will not trade picks/expirings for tallent and no one will offer equal value. Ron/Bill will be a King next year, bookmark it.

RonRon McBillBill had the chance this year to step up and be the leader. What happened? He failed miserably. There was way too much off-court drama and most of it involved him. He's become way too much of a liability to the present and future of the franchise IMHO to bother with any longer.

What makes you think Petrie won't trade for picks/expirings?Artest has worn out his welcome and his presence this upcoming season will only disrupt what Petrie is trying to build. There is NO real reason to keep him around and about a million reasons to send him down the road.

 

[KingKong]

Of all our players I can see Garcia usurping the leadership role, if he continues to improve in all aspects of his game.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Wait, back up... Fifth page?

 

[bajaden]

Oh man, no, not the sixth page.

 

[Kingzrool]

RonRon McBillBill had the chance this year to step up and be the leader. What happened? He failed miserably. There was way too much off-court drama and most of it involved him. He's become way too much of a liability to the present and future of the franchise IMHO to bother with any longer.

What makes you think Petrie won't trade for picks/expirings?Artest has worn out his welcome and his presence this upcoming season will only disrupt what Petrie is trying to build. There is NO real reason to keep him around and about a million reasons to send him down the road.

It is true that I would rather a better leader, but Ron will be the leader until he leaves. I know GP did it with Bibby, but I just do not see him also doing it with Ron as well. If he really lets the Artest formerly known as Ron go, the tallent loss between both Bibby and Artest for a bunch of expirings and picks is huge for a team that lacks tallent in the first place. We will see, but I do not see GP accepting the short end of an Artest deal. He can wait till the Allstar break and get actual value out of him.

 

[VF21]

It is true that I would rather a better leader, but Ron will be the leader until he leaves.

He isn't the leader now. If anything, one of our main problems with him around is that no one else has stepped up to be a leader and he hasn't filled the role.

I know GP did it with Bibby, but I just do not see him also doing it with Ron as well. If he really lets the Artest formerly known as Ron go, the tallent loss between both Bibby and Artest for a bunch of expirings and picks is huge for a team that lacks tallent in the first place.

Getting rid of Bibby wasn't about instanting acquiring established talent. It was about moving younger and getting expiring contracts to better build for the future. The same could easily happen (and IMHO should happen) for Artest. We're rebuilding, not reloading.

We will see, but I do not see GP accepting the short end of an Artest deal. He can wait till the Allstar break and get actual value out of him.

You're making it sound as though Petrie accepted the short end of the deal with Bibby. I disagree. I think he got what he wanted...some expirings AND a good look at a 5th pick to see if he had enough potential to warrant keeping around.

I also question your "a team that lacks talent in the first place." We're rebuilding. People wanted us to rebuild and yet, now that it's happening, they expect instant success. That's not gonna happen.

We DO have talent. Not enough, of course, to win it all but we're back going in the right direction. And WHEN (not if) Artest is moved out, we'll be further down that path.

Artest has burned his bridges. He's created a media circus one too many times. I cannot imagine a scenario by which he's even in a Kings uniform come the beginning of the season.

But at this point, I'll agree to disagree. We'll all just have to see what happens. [Just so you know, though? I'm still making preparations for the LAA (Life after Artest) party.]

 

[VF21]

Wait, back up... Fifth page?

Some people set their display to show more posts per page.

 

[Kingzrool]

I'm still making preparations for the LAA (Life after Artest) party.

Fair enough, and for the record I was in full support of the Bibby trade.

Some people set their display to show more posts per page.

I hate having to constantly switch pages.

 

[Kingster]

Kevin Martin doesn't have leadership qualities, neither does Brad. So who is it?

Eventually it will be Hawes, imo. And Garcia.

 

[Kingster]

Apparently, being #6 in scoring, #3 in points per shot, and the first player in NBA history to go to the line 9 times per game while shooting 40% from three, all equates to a couple dunks and a wide open three here and there.

And to add to your point, I guess he got to the line from not being able to take his man off the dribble I guess all those free throws came on backdoor cuts

 

[Bricklayer]

And to add to your point, I guess he got to the line from not being able to take his man off the dribble I guess all those free throws came on backdoor cuts

Well that part is true -- Kevin rarely squares his man up and takes him off the dribble. He gets to the line by, well a) flopping, and b) flopping; and c) by catching the ball on the move, or shading off a screen, or anything else that let's him get a free step where he can use his speed to keep the angle (wherein the flopping often starts). You never see him for instance square a guy up one on one and just beat him off the dribble -- his handle remains his notable weakpoint. What he does is compensate for it by knowing how to get an advantage even without a killer crossover.

 

[tyrant]

Well that part is true -- Kevin rarely squares his man up and takes him off the dribble. He gets to the line by, well a) flopping, and b) flopping; and c) by catching the ball on the move, or shading off a screen, or anything else that let's him get a free step where he can use his speed to keep the angle (wherein the flopping often starts). You never see him for instance square a guy up one on one and just beat him off the dribble -- his handle remains his notable weakpoint. What he does is compensate for it by knowing how to get an advantage even without a killer crossover.

good post brick.

and what kevin does? well thats smart basketball. but there are also smarter defenders. thats why kevin martin will always go 4-15 against the spurs

 

[Kevin_Martin_23]

Martin, Garcia, and Miller will be the leaders. Martin has been talking about how he is going to be a leader.

 

[NME]

and what kevin does? well thats smart basketball. but there are also smarter defenders. thats why kevin martin will always go 4-15 against the spurs

You say "always" I assume because he shot poorly from the field in two of his games against the Spurs last year (although he still was repeatedly sent to the line by that smart defense)? However, in the 2006-2007 season, Kevin averaged 22 points on 48% shooting in four games against the Spurs. Is that year outside the space-time continuum, or was the Spurs defense not so smart in that championship season.

 

[tyrant]

You say "always" I assume because he shot poorly from the field in two of his games against the Spurs last year (although he still was repeatedly sent to the line by that smart defense)? However, in the 2006-2007 season, Kevin averaged 22 points on 48% shooting in four games against the Spurs. Is that year outside the space-time continuum, or was the Spurs defense not so smart in that championship season.

nice rebuttal NME. now, lets take a look at the past 2 seasons. its only fair since he hasnt been in the league that long.

the 06-07 season was pretty good for him against the spurs. i looked at his averages and calculated that he went (on average) 7-15 against the spurs during the 4 games. pretty good

6-11
9-15
10-20
4-14

the 07-08 season was pretty embarrasing

he went a combined 13-41 against the spurs in the 3 games. if you break that down its 4-13 a game. thats not gona get it done. he needs to do a little more than what he did in the 06-07 season.

 

[bajaden]

good post brick.

and what kevin does? well thats smart basketball. but there are also smarter defenders. thats why kevin martin will always go 4-15 against the spurs

Where Martin had a problem last year, was that for the first time in his career he was constantly double teamed. It sort of comes with the territory when you start to score a lot. You have to remember that he's still not a finnished product. He needs to recognize the double team and become a better passer out of it.

Every player that comes into the league has weaknesses to his game. Its only a matter of time before the league finds those weaknesses and trys to exploit them. Its then up the player to adjust. Its a learing experience, and dedicated players do adjust. Lazy one's like Jerome James and players of similar ilk, don't.

The Michael Jordan we knew 6 or 7 years into his career is not the same Jordan that started his career. Same could be said of a lot of great players. Certainly Karl Malone comes to mind. In Martin's case, we'll have to wait and see. He's made progress every year so far, so to make a statement about what his future limitations are, doesn't make sense. We simply don't know yet.

 

[tyrant]

Last time I checked, we were talking about the LEADER of the team, NOT the franchise player. They are not the same thing.


2 years ago, I would argue that Corliss was the leader of the Kings. And he only got to play in half the games (should have played more IMO). Now that is not ideal by any means, but he is still the player that all the others seemed to look to.

Once again, I don't think that Martin will be the leader of the Kings. But I base that on the fact that he hasn't shown much leadership in the past other than by example (and hard work). Usually, natural leaders tend to show some inclination to lead early on. He hasn't. Garcia has shown way more leadership so far, while playing far less and not nearly as well.

I think we will just have to wait and watch to see who emerges as the leader of this team, and hope that whoever it turns out to be is a good leader.

in the nba you want your leader to be your franchise player. there is a game. its called follow the leader. not follow the washed up 37 year old. and not follow the guy that can twirl a towel with the best of them. its follow the leader. i wish people would quit saying that being a leader has nothing to do with your skills or how great you are. a true leader is a person who by force of example, talents, or qualities plays a directing role. i want to follow the guy thats gona lead me into a winning season. if martin cant do that im sure he'll be traded. who are you gona turn to then?

 

[Warhawk]

in the nba you want your leader to be your franchise player. there is a game. its called follow the leader. not follow the washed up 37 year old. and not follow the guy that can twirl a towel with the best of them. its follow the leader. i wish people would quit saying that being a leader has nothing to do with your skills or how great you are. a true leader is a person who by force of example, talents, or qualities plays a directing role. i want to follow the guy thats gona lead me into a winning season. if martin cant do that im sure he'll be traded. who are you gona turn to then?

And you keep ignoring the examples put forth of players like Vlade who are not the best players on the team by any means but are the unquestionable leaders of said team. Franchise players are frequently, but not always, the leaders.

Just because you repeat something often doesn't make it true.

 

[BMiller52]

in the nba you want your leader to be your franchise player. there is a game. its called follow the leader. not follow the washed up 37 year old. and not follow the guy that can twirl a towel with the best of them. its follow the leader. i wish people would quit saying that being a leader has nothing to do with your skills or how great you are. a true leader is a person who by force of example, talents, or qualities plays a directing role. i want to follow the guy thats gona lead me into a winning season. if martin cant do that im sure he'll be traded. who are you gona turn to then?

And I can come up with plenty of examples where you're wrong. Like Boston this year, KG was the best player. He set the tone on defense and was their best player. But the heart of the team and leader was Pierce. Or the Pistons from 2004, Ben was the heart and soul of that team. Billups/Rip were the best scorers and the guys who had the ball in the clutch though. Or the 1999 Spurs. Duncan was the best player, DRob/Avery were the leaders. Or the 2006 Heat, where Wade was the best player but Zo/Shaq were the leaders.

Those are just on title winning teams. On other really good teams, like the 2000 Blazers, Pippen was the leader. Sheed was the best player. On the 2000-2004 Kings, Webb was the best player and Mike was the clutch scorer but Vlade was the leader.

 

[NME]

the 07-08 season was pretty embarrasing

he went a combined 13-41 against the spurs in the 3 games. if you break that down its 4-13 a game. thats not gona get it done. he needs to do a little more than what he did in the 06-07 season.

The average does look pretty bad. He had one game where his numbers were pretty close to his normal averages, the second he shot a horrendous 2-12 from the floor but was still productive with 15-17 at the line, and the third where he was all-around ineffectual. Overall, not what you hope for from him, but taken in combination with the year prior also doesn't show that he's incapable of doing damage against a top defense.

 

[tyrant]

And you keep ignoring the examples put forth of players like Vlade who are not the best players on the team by any means but are the unquestionable leaders of said team. Franchise players are frequently, but not always, the leaders.

Just because you repeat something often doesn't make it true.

this is why the best player on the team should be the leader

1. he sets the tone on offense and defense. he demands that this is the way the team has to play in order to win.
2. he is an inspiration to his teammates. he may dive for loose balls, take a tech every now&then for his team.
3. he's verbal
4. he's TOUGH
5. he's composed
6. he's a teacher

now, vlade had some of these qualities. i would say webber had more. vlade wasnt tough, he was a flopper. he had skill, but not enough. he was composed at times and he was a great teacher. webber was tough, he was a teacher and he helped give the image that there ARE great passing big men. he was also extremely skilled and verbal. therefore i would give webber the leadership over vlade any day. now, kevin martin isnt tough. at all. he's definately not verbal, he's obviously not a teacher, what is he going to teach??????????????(unless you're learning to shoot freethrows. he's not even 90% by the way). he's not skilled enough, but he is composed. so i right now i can see 1 of the 6 main components. tisk tisk.

questions anyone???

 

[tyrant]

And I can come up with plenty of examples where you're wrong. Like Boston this year, KG was the best player. He set the tone on defense and was their best player. But the heart of the team and leader was Pierce. Or the Pistons from 2004, Ben was the heart and soul of that team. Billups/Rip were the best scorers and the guys who had the ball in the clutch though. Or the 1999 Spurs. Duncan was the best player, DRob/Avery were the leaders. Or the 2006 Heat, where Wade was the best player but Zo/Shaq were the leaders.

Those are just on title winning teams. On other really good teams, like the 2000 Blazers, Pippen was the leader. Sheed was the best player. On the 2000-2004 Kings, Webb was the best player and Mike was the clutch scorer but Vlade was the leader.

um NO, kg and pierce were the 2 best players on that team. technically you had 2 leaders. now it was pauls team because he been there for 30 years.

next, billups was the leader of the pistons. he still is. thats why he was finals MVP. big ben was just a great defensive player

next, are you freakin kiddin me? dwayne wade carried that team on his back AND HE'S THE MAN thats still wearing the heat uni. not shaq. how dare you say d-wade wasnt the leader of that team. you're dismissed