Who Should Start at PF?
- Thread starter twslam07
- Start date
twslam07
All-Star
I’ve mentioned this in another thread but if you squint hard enough, Lyles is sort of the PF we’d be looking for next to Sabonis. Let’s review his attributes…
In a vacuum, I don’t think he’s a better player than Barnes but I think his fit in the starting lineup (and more importantly next to Sabonis) could have a synergistic effect. He’s definitely much different from Barnes in terms of size/length, rim protection, rebounding, and edge/fire.
Barnes is the better iso scorer which we could take advantage of when Fox and/or Sabonis are off the floor and Barnes’ is matched up with weaker 2nd units. Monk and Barnes would be solid go-to scorers in a 2nd unit to help keep us afloat while Lyles brings some other attributes to the starting unit that we could really use.
You obviously have to sell Barnes on it, but when he was a kid, he did witness a starter level player in Iguodala accept a bench role on his Warriors team helping them win a championship (not to mention that Barnes doesn’t have to worry about being moved to the bench in a contract year).
- Great size & length (6’9” w/o shoes with a 7’1.5” wingspan & a 9’0” standing reach)
- Good shooter (.363 3P% on 6.9 3PA per 36 min, .446 Corner 3P%, and .815 FT%
- Efficient role playing scorer (16.2 PTS per 36 min and .607 TS%)
- Good rebounder (8.7 REB per 36 min)
- Decent rim protector (0.9 BLK per 36 min)
- Okay defender
- Solid BBIQ
- Got a bit of an edge/toughness to him
In a vacuum, I don’t think he’s a better player than Barnes but I think his fit in the starting lineup (and more importantly next to Sabonis) could have a synergistic effect. He’s definitely much different from Barnes in terms of size/length, rim protection, rebounding, and edge/fire.
Barnes is the better iso scorer which we could take advantage of when Fox and/or Sabonis are off the floor and Barnes’ is matched up with weaker 2nd units. Monk and Barnes would be solid go-to scorers in a 2nd unit to help keep us afloat while Lyles brings some other attributes to the starting unit that we could really use.
You obviously have to sell Barnes on it, but when he was a kid, he did witness a starter level player in Iguodala accept a bench role on his Warriors team helping them win a championship (not to mention that Barnes doesn’t have to worry about being moved to the bench in a contract year).
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
Hmm I don’t have a strong opinion on this, case could be made for all of them. I’d probably lean keeping in Barnes for a bit longer and see what our record looks like in a couple weeks. I’m ok with messing around with minutes distribution too. Maybe both Lyles and Sasha start seeing more minutes. I also want to see Sabonis develop more chemistry with Sasha
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For me the highest scoring unit will be :
Fox
Sabonis
Murray
Monk
Vezenkov
But I am sure we won’t see that 5 much (if we see then at all together
) cause it is far away form the best defensive 5…
I can’t vote for Lyles , cause honestly I haven’t seen enough from him , it’s my first year following closely the team and he was off for most of the summer and for the better half of the 20 games so far this season …
Even if not for Vezenkov I honestly can’t see Barnes as stating 5 … He is just having more bad games then good ones so far … he made a fantastic start with 30 plus in the opening game , where he was everywhere and from that point I can count much more bad games then good ones for the amount of minutes he have from brown ….
Fox
Sabonis
Murray
Monk
Vezenkov
But I am sure we won’t see that 5 much (if we see then at all together
) cause it is far away form the best defensive 5… I can’t vote for Lyles , cause honestly I haven’t seen enough from him , it’s my first year following closely the team and he was off for most of the summer and for the better half of the 20 games so far this season …
Even if not for Vezenkov I honestly can’t see Barnes as stating 5 … He is just having more bad games then good ones so far … he made a fantastic start with 30 plus in the opening game , where he was everywhere and from that point I can count much more bad games then good ones for the amount of minutes he have from brown ….
I think it should be a night to night matchup based decision between those 3, but I get that the NBA doesn't really work like that until you get to a 7 game playoff series.
If I had to pick one, it would not be Barnes.
If I had to pick one, it would not be Barnes.
Sasha.
Kings offense is better with him on the floor and he's holding up defensively FAR better than anybody expected. Just a tough dude that's not afraid to mix it up and has actually given a little rim protection in his limited minutes. Offensively, he's just the off-ball genius that was promised and he's so dang good at finding open space. That's an exact fit with Domas's skill-set and we just haven't seen enough of them on the floor with each other.
And the obvious fit with Fox as an elite spacer to open up some room in the paint.
I think HB makes far more sense as a lead offensive hub with the 2nd unit, along with Monk. He's the 5th option with the starters, but his skill-set can be far better utilized for a reserve unit that needs his scoring ability. The problem with the bench unit is they just solely rely on Monk to create everything; getting another good offensive scoring weapon will help make that unit better imo.
Sasha fits better with the starters, HB fits better with the bench. Seems like an easy call.
Kings offense is better with him on the floor and he's holding up defensively FAR better than anybody expected. Just a tough dude that's not afraid to mix it up and has actually given a little rim protection in his limited minutes. Offensively, he's just the off-ball genius that was promised and he's so dang good at finding open space. That's an exact fit with Domas's skill-set and we just haven't seen enough of them on the floor with each other.
And the obvious fit with Fox as an elite spacer to open up some room in the paint.
I think HB makes far more sense as a lead offensive hub with the 2nd unit, along with Monk. He's the 5th option with the starters, but his skill-set can be far better utilized for a reserve unit that needs his scoring ability. The problem with the bench unit is they just solely rely on Monk to create everything; getting another good offensive scoring weapon will help make that unit better imo.
Sasha fits better with the starters, HB fits better with the bench. Seems like an easy call.
PorchSurfin
Starter
Lyles is probably the better player right now. Sasha is probably the better fit.
Barnes looks slow and invisible a lot.
Barnes looks slow and invisible a lot.
sono
Starter
I guess, a matchup based. It was really interesting to see how the Lakers would fare against the Pelicans in the in-season tournament semifinal, specifically against BI and Zion. Size and length matter, there's not much could do both of them against Davis and Bron. Of course, there's no comparison but Lyles is the best matchup at 4 IMO and he was rusty when we faced the Pelicans recently.
twslam07
All-Star
Offensively, Sasha is a terrific fit with our starters. Defensively, he leaves a lot to be desired (especially in a starting role).
Now Barnes is no elite defender, but I like his chances against guys like Zion, Towns, Markkanen, LeBron, Leonard, Jackson Jr., Durant, Grant, Wembanyama, etc. more than Sasha (not that Barnes is going to lock these guys down but I think he’d be less of a revolving door).
I think that’s why I ultimately gravitate towards Lyles as my pick. Right now, we’re starting a PF and C who have below average size & length and offer minimal rim protection. It’d be one thing to start Barnes at PF if you have a big/long C like Gobert but it’s amplified when your C is also on the smaller side. And considering Sabonis isn’t going anywhere, Lyles is the only one on the roster that gives us that much needed size & length next to him.
If I go category by category, this is probably how I have them ranked…
- Shooting: Sasha > Barnes > Lyles
- ISO Scoring: Barnes > Lyles > Sasha
- Ballhandling: Barnes > Lyles > Sasha
- Cutting: Sasha > Barnes > Lyles
- Defense: Lyles > Barnes > Sasha
- Rim Protection: Lyles > Sasha > Barnes
- Rebounding: Lyles > Sasha > Barnes
- Size/Length: Lyles > Barnes > Sasha
- Athleticism: Barnes > Lyles > Sasha
With that in mind, I wouldn’t necessarily say that Lyles is the best player, but considering our weaknesses are size, length, defense, rim protection, and rebounding (and considering Lyles is still an effective floor spacer), he seems like the best pick.
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
I was looking up measurements and Barnes is 6’8 with shoes and 6’11.25 wingspan. While doing so I saw Tom Rob’s measurements.
7’3 + wingspan! Crazy that guy didn’t at least carve out a career as a defensive role player with that length and athleticism.
7’3 + wingspan! Crazy that guy didn’t at least carve out a career as a defensive role player with that length and athleticism.
This was a hard pick but I ultimately voted Sasha because it seems like the starting unit always comes out hot and doesn’t play defense. Both of these would benefit Sasha because his lack of defense wouldn’t hurt the team as much early on…
Might be a bit silly, but essentially I don’t think there’s a whole lot of defense being played in the first 8mins of the game. Even if Sasha gives up back to back points, our offense always answers anyways. This allows him to play mistake-free basketball and gets him in an offensive rhythm early on in the game. He would excel on offense next to Fox and Domas. He’d open up our offense in more ways than HB just because of his off-ball movements. If Fox and Sabonis can hit our movers on point, the offense is going to be excruciating to defend.
I would make Sasha the first sub out and bring in Duarte after the 5-6 minute mark (for defensive purposes). When we do a full bench change, that’s where HB comes in and can do whatever he wants.
In the 2nd half, there should be stretches where HB plays with the starting lineup. I don’t mind if he closes out games either (granted he’s playing well).
Might be a bit silly, but essentially I don’t think there’s a whole lot of defense being played in the first 8mins of the game. Even if Sasha gives up back to back points, our offense always answers anyways. This allows him to play mistake-free basketball and gets him in an offensive rhythm early on in the game. He would excel on offense next to Fox and Domas. He’d open up our offense in more ways than HB just because of his off-ball movements. If Fox and Sabonis can hit our movers on point, the offense is going to be excruciating to defend.
I would make Sasha the first sub out and bring in Duarte after the 5-6 minute mark (for defensive purposes). When we do a full bench change, that’s where HB comes in and can do whatever he wants.
In the 2nd half, there should be stretches where HB plays with the starting lineup. I don’t mind if he closes out games either (granted he’s playing well).
Perhaps vs starting wings, the defense flops, but I think Sasha's defense has been a pretty big surprise so far this year. We all expected him to be a major dud, but dare I say... he's been passable? He'll be physical on the boards, he plays passing lanes well and while it's rough watching him get switched onto a guard, he's at least attempting to get a contest. And there's even some rim protection stats floating out there that he's contributing some there too.
twslam07
All-Star
Yeah he hasn’t been god awful defensively, but he’s still being hunted on the defensive end (like tonight). I just think that gets exacerbated in the starting lineup. I’d much prefer to have him come off the bench where Brown can choose at what time and with who he gets subbed in with to make sure the matchups are favorable enough to take advantage of his superb shooting.
I mean, but Sasha answered the call. Cam Thomas got switched into an ISO slot vs him like 4 times and Sasha held his own. Vs one of the best ISO scorers in the NBA. And he does play passing lanes extremely well.
I don't think he'd be a major liability as a starter. Or at least, to the level we expected him to be.
I think we're just trying really hard to search for someone better at the 4. Sasha and Lyles have had their moments but neither has been anything close to consistent so far. Barnes hasn't either but his overall ability to make shots, get to the line and at least play consistently average to slightly below average defense is reliable. I'd have to see Sasha or Lyles play better for longer stretches before benching Barnes.
None of these guys are particularly good defenders at the 4. Barnes has by far the most reliable 3pt shot and has proved that for years. He may or may not be the best 4 on the team currently but I think Brown is going to need to see a bigger difference in these 3 players before he messes with the chemistry and moves one of our more reliable veteran leaders out of the starting lineup.
None of these guys are particularly good defenders at the 4. Barnes has by far the most reliable 3pt shot and has proved that for years. He may or may not be the best 4 on the team currently but I think Brown is going to need to see a bigger difference in these 3 players before he messes with the chemistry and moves one of our more reliable veteran leaders out of the starting lineup.
Totally agree. But I also think Lyles may not have reached his ceiling. If he becomes a 40% volume 3pt shooter - that could change things.
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
Who are you starting at center?
upinsmoke
All-Star
I dont know yet. I just think this team won't be serious until we shore up some size upfront.
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
Just start Lyles with Sabonis. Call it a (2) PF lineup
whitechocolate
Bench
Barnes is a pro. He's a bad ass motha who don't take no crap off nobody.
He's got pride.
He's got pow'a.
Stan.Helsing
G-League
Goodness, you're making it seem like Harrison Barnes is the new Rico Suave. La raza!
Stan.Helsing
G-League
The answer is simple.... NOT Harrison Barnes!
Also, seen someone say the team owes him? The team owes him nothing.
Do people realize how much the Kings have paid him over the years to keep this team in the Kangz industrial zone??
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ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
I think a big issue with the team dynamic, is that Barnes is supposed to be the veteran leader.....and by all appearances he has been checked out for most of this season. Did he quit on the team, knowing that he was and is being shopped for a trade?
You can't have a guy in his veteran position as a starter, continue to put up relative zeros. It's hurting this team a lot. Sit him down and put him on ice till the dead line, because a worst case scenario would be him getting injured
You can't have a guy in his veteran position as a starter, continue to put up relative zeros. It's hurting this team a lot. Sit him down and put him on ice till the dead line, because a worst case scenario would be him getting injured
Shaqfuey
Bench
For Barnes to get more shots, someone has to shoot less. Right now, in my opinion, the two most obvious are Fox and Monk. Give Barnes increased touches, and his stats go back to his career norms. The team success strategy has been ball movement. We've fell into a pattern whereas our primary ball handlers want to play hero ball. That isn't a formula for efficiency.
It's probably pretty frustrating for all those bench players who go in and out of the rotation to see HB with these stats while they get DNP's. I wonder how Mike Brown's going to deal with this throughout the season if Barnes isn't traded.
I also wonder how Trey will look as a starter when he's been a back-up practically his whole career. Maybe he'll rise to the occasion and shock everyone.
Of course, there is also Sasha. His shooting, off-ball movement and especially his offensive rebounds are sometimes a game-changer. If even two of these three are displayed, the whole offense is going to be upgraded, if he starts.
Btw, after the post-game interview of Mike Brown, when he said that his bench isn't scoring, there were hilarious comments in social media in Bulgaria. "Hard to score from sitting position"; "The bench is quite far"; "Total of six shots from the bench players (no Monk included). Guess they have to try at their own basket to increase their numbers".
Definitely a situation will occur in the locker room at some point. I hope it doesn't get there. But I'm interested how Brown will handle this. I like the guy and it itches me to know what's on his mind.
I also wonder how Trey will look as a starter when he's been a back-up practically his whole career. Maybe he'll rise to the occasion and shock everyone.
Of course, there is also Sasha. His shooting, off-ball movement and especially his offensive rebounds are sometimes a game-changer. If even two of these three are displayed, the whole offense is going to be upgraded, if he starts.
Btw, after the post-game interview of Mike Brown, when he said that his bench isn't scoring, there were hilarious comments in social media in Bulgaria. "Hard to score from sitting position"; "The bench is quite far"; "Total of six shots from the bench players (no Monk included). Guess they have to try at their own basket to increase their numbers".
Definitely a situation will occur in the locker room at some point. I hope it doesn't get there. But I'm interested how Brown will handle this. I like the guy and it itches me to know what's on his mind.
I think sometimes even Brown himself is having difficulties to know what is in his mind ….
He can say two absolutely opposite things in less then 24 …
Tension in locker room is definitely rising though all are speaking in the opposite direction ….
