Who Would You Start on Opening Day?

Who Would You Start on Opening Day?

  • Ellis - LaVine - DeRozan - Murray - Sabonis

  • Monk - LaVine - DeRozan - Murray - Sabonis

  • Schroder - LaVine - DeRozan - Murray - Sabonis

  • Monk - Ellis - LaVine - Murray - Sabonis

  • Schroder - Ellis - LaVine - Murray - Sabonis

  • Schroder - Monk - LaVine - Murray - Sabonis

  • Ellis - LaVine - Clifford - Murray - Sabonis

  • Monk - LaVine - Clifford - Murray- Sabonis

  • Schroder - LaVine - Clifford - Murray - Sabonis

  • Other


Results are only viewable after voting.
1.

The lineups data is meaningless. Sample size and of course the ridiculous amount of turnover and turmoil this team had last year. This season will be a far better indicator of how these lineups operate together with a full off-season/training camp under what Doug is coaching. Not the hodge-podge we tried to create mid-season last season after firing our HC and trading our franchise player. I've stayed pretty consistent on this point all summer too, I'm willing to just throw out last season and let these guys start fresh from game 1 and judge from there. Even if we wanted to "trust" the lineup data, it's such a small sample that there's nothing to gleam from it anyway.


2. Why are you not using LaVine's stats with the Bulls? (Which, huh, he played better than, interesting how you might leave that off). That alone changes a lot of your "points". If you're only going to compare LaVine's Kings tenure, then you should mod your data to reflect that with DDR's as well. If you're comparing DDR's whole season, compare LaVine's whole season. If you're going to go through the effort of trying to make a "statistical argument", you should probably try and not and bring a completely skewed sample to the table.

I don't see how anything that LaVine did on the Bulls in a different lineup with a different coach is at all relevant to our situation right now. If we're talking overall about who has had the better career than yeah we can fold those numbers into the conversation but if the topic at hand is "who should be in the starting lineup this season" -- which I thought was what we were talking about -- than I'm only going to look at the data sample we have which involves both of these players on this roster with most of these teammates playing for this coach.

I expected you to say LaVine's numbers are skewed because he came in mid-season and didn't have time to fully acclimate. I don't fully buy that for a veteran player who has been 10 years in the league, but sure that's your prerogative. Maybe he needs 8 months to get his sea legs under him. You asked me for a shred of evidence and I gave you some numbers. I don't even really like quantitative data at this point for player comparisons. If anything there's so much of it now that you can use it to make just about any argument. But for those who do like numbers, they pretty much all tell the same story. Well, except for 3pt%. I guess we'll see if the guy who was otherworldly good at making contested jumpers last season remains so or if that was just an unsustainable fluke.
 
I don't see how anything that LaVine did on the Bulls in a different lineup with a different coach is at all relevant to our situation right now. If we're talking overall about who has had the better career than yeah we can fold those numbers into the conversation but if the topic at hand is "who should be in the starting lineup this season" -- which I thought was what we were talking about -- than I'm only going to look at the data sample we have which involves both of these players on this roster with most of these teammates playing for this coach.

I expected you to say LaVine's numbers are skewed because he came in mid-season and didn't have time to fully acclimate. I don't fully buy that for a veteran player who has been 10 years in the league, but sure that's your prerogative. Maybe he needs 8 months to get his sea legs under him. You asked me for a shred of evidence and I gave you some numbers. I don't even really like quantitative data at this point for player comparisons. If anything there's so much of it now that you can use it to make just about any argument. But for those who do like numbers, they pretty much all tell the same story. Well, except for 3pt%. I guess we'll see if the guy who was otherworldly good at making contested jumpers last season remains so or if that was just an unsustainable fluke.

Literally how?

I might be on board if he joined Beam team 1.0 with Fox/Brown/Domas and everyone kumbaya. Clearly, last season was a complete and utter crap show at every single level of the organization.

1. Brown fired
2. Fox traded
3. Assistant GM left mid-season
3. Lead assistant coach left mid-season
4. Domas injured for most of the end of the season and clearly wasn't 100% the games he did play

But ok, sure buddy, you don't think that should affect a player like LaVine? By all reports they only had like a handful of practices too at that time.

And I'm not really sure what to say to your comment on why you don't think his Bulls stint matters when you're comparing 32 games of LaVine's season to ALL of DDR's season. DDR played for a different coach too (Brown), so if you're actually trying to make a comparison, you should be using the same 32 games DDR played with LaVine as a King. Otherwise, you're just making a bad faith argument to dog on LaVine (which seems to be your only goal lately).

Again, this is all to preface I'm not a big LaVine fan, but some of the hysteria on this forum makes it look like I'm defending him. I rated the trade 5.5/10 at the time it happened. He's an excellent offensive player, a true #1 scorer, one of the best shooters in basketball and very bad defensively. He needs certain guys around him, to be successful. But i take issue when guys legitmately act like he's Quincy Douby out there. It's just dumb.
 
Yes, I will acknowledge that he does one thing really well, but even that has been inflated here by recency bias. His career 3pt % is 39.1% and in an 11 year career (so far) he's only shot over 40% from 3pt range for an entire season once before last season. It isn't just that he's bad on defense, he's also turnover prone and below average at getting to the FT line. This guy is Buddy Hield with dunks. He finishes in the top 20 in TS% once in 11 years (16th last season) and I'm supposed to act like he's an elite scorer?

It’s not even one thing really well. The impact of a guy shooting over 7 3s a game and hitting them at a clip of 45% completely changes how a defense will gameplan for you. That’s prime Steph Curry like efficiency. That opens it up for Domas as a playmaker, in the post and on the drive, driving lanes for Schroder and Monk, gives Deebo room to operate. It’s what gives the Kings a ceiling to be a top 5 team on offense. Buddy isn’t close to the scorer LaVine is, he has NEVER came close to ever sniffing anything near 51% from the floor. So that comparison alone loses credibility for me, LaVine is on a completely different tier of scorer and player than Buddy Hield.
 
If you have a volume scorer with above 60% True Shooting, then it's up to the coaching staff to make the defensive scheme work around whatever that player's limitations are. There aren't too many guys who can do it at the NBA level, and if your team doesn't have somebody, then they aren't really competing at the highest level.

I count myself as a bit of a Zach skeptic myself, but that's mostly due to him playing under 60 games every other year (so far hasn't been a problem on the Kings). It's not that he doesn't have game.
 
If you have a volume scorer with above 60% True Shooting, then it's up to the coaching staff to make the defensive scheme work around whatever that player's limitations are. There aren't too many guys who can do it at the NBA level, and if your team doesn't have somebody, then they aren't really competing at the highest level.

I count myself as a bit of a Zach skeptic myself, but that's mostly due to him playing under 60 games every other year (so far hasn't been a problem on the Kings). It's not that he doesn't have game.
Contract/games played was the big negatory to me. I just look at Zach, Deebo and Monk as fully mature, complete players who should never be on the court together at the same time. They are also in the way of developing players, so we need to move one. In the mean time two should be coming off the bench so we can get a plus defender in there. If Zach is healthy, he starts. If not, then I probably say Ellis and DDR but that could change if Nique makes a case for himself.
 
Literally how?

I might be on board if he joined Beam team 1.0 with Fox/Brown/Domas and everyone kumbaya. Clearly, last season was a complete and utter crap show at every single level of the organization.

1. Brown fired
2. Fox traded
3. Assistant GM left mid-season
3. Lead assistant coach left mid-season
4. Domas injured for most of the end of the season and clearly wasn't 100% the games he did play

But ok, sure buddy, you don't think that should affect a player like LaVine? By all reports they only had like a handful of practices too at that time.

And I'm not really sure what to say to your comment on why you don't think his Bulls stint matters when you're comparing 32 games of LaVine's season to ALL of DDR's season. DDR played for a different coach too (Brown), so if you're actually trying to make a comparison, you should be using the same 32 games DDR played with LaVine as a King. Otherwise, you're just making a bad faith argument to dog on LaVine (which seems to be your only goal lately).

Again, this is all to preface I'm not a big LaVine fan, but some of the hysteria on this forum makes it look like I'm defending him. I rated the trade 5.5/10 at the time it happened. He's an excellent offensive player, a true #1 scorer, one of the best shooters in basketball and very bad defensively. He needs certain guys around him, to be successful. But i take issue when guys legitmately act like he's Quincy Douby out there. It's just dumb.

I didn't say Quincy Douby, I said Buddy Hield. Do you think that comparing a shooter to Buddy Hield is an insult? LaVine has made just over 1500 career 3pt jumpers at 39.1% and Buddy Hield has made just over 2100 career 3pt jumpers at 39.7%.

Irony of ironies, there was a time when I was one of the few people on this board defending Buddy Hield while he was still a Sacramento King because 44% from three point range buys you a lot of leeway to make mistakes. Or so I said at the time. I guess 4 years later I've become so sick of this "shooting is all that matters narrative" that I just don't care anymore if a guy is shooting 45% on volume threes. If that's all he does I'm not interested. We're not losing games because of bad offense.

Also, I didn't compare counting stats -- I compared advanced stats and lineup NetRtgs. What's bad faith about that? LaVIne played 1170 minutes for the Kings last season. I think that's enough minutes to draw some conclusions about his performance. And if you can read between the lines just a little bit I think you would see that I'm only making the same argument that I've been making for the last 20 years -- that this team is not ever going anywhere until they wake up and take defense seriously.
 
It’s not even one thing really well. The impact of a guy shooting over 7 3s a game and hitting them at a clip of 45% completely changes how a defense will gameplan for you. That’s prime Steph Curry like efficiency. That opens it up for Domas as a playmaker, in the post and on the drive, driving lanes for Schroder and Monk, gives Deebo room to operate. It’s what gives the Kings a ceiling to be a top 5 team on offense. Buddy isn’t close to the scorer LaVine is, he has NEVER came close to ever sniffing anything near 51% from the floor. So that comparison alone loses credibility for me, LaVine is on a completely different tier of scorer and player than Buddy Hield.

Twice. LaVine has done this just twice in 11 seasons. So maybe you will move heaven and hell to accommodate a guy shooting .511 / .446 / .825 but will you make the same accommodations for a player shooting .470 / .391 / .833? Those are LaVine's career averages over 21,000 minutes and 10,000 FGA. And how do you explain given he shot the ball better than he ever has before and is supposed to be the key to this year's Kings offense, why the Kings were inexplicably worse with LaVine on the floor than off it for nearly all of the 1170 minutes he played for them last season?
 
I didn't say Quincy Douby, I said Buddy Hield. Do you think that comparing a shooter to Buddy Hield is an insult? LaVine has made just over 1500 career 3pt jumpers at 39.1% and Buddy Hield has made just over 2100 career 3pt jumpers at 39.7%.

Irony of ironies, there was a time when I was one of the few people on this board defending Buddy Hield while he was still a Sacramento King because 44% from three point range buys you a lot of leeway to make mistakes. Or so I said at the time. I guess 4 years later I've become so sick of this "shooting is all that matters narrative" that I just don't care anymore if a guy is shooting 45% on volume threes. If that's all he does I'm not interested. We're not losing games because of bad offense.

Also, I didn't compare counting stats -- I compared advanced stats and lineup NetRtgs. What's bad faith about that? LaVIne played 1170 minutes for the Kings last season. I think that's enough minutes to draw some conclusions about his performance. And if you can read between the lines just a little bit I think you would see that I'm only making the same argument that I've been making for the last 20 years -- that this team is not ever going anywhere until they wake up and take defense seriously.
"Bad faith" is a bit acerbic, but you could do more to address the criticism. It seems a reasonable thing to say that the 1170 minutes that Lavine played were in a different environment than the ~1600 minutes DDR played before the Allstar break with Fox, Coach Brown, Alex Len et al. It's a better comparison to look at the games they played on the same team
 
"Bad faith" is a bit acerbic, but you could do more to address the criticism. It seems a reasonable thing to say that the 1170 minutes that Lavine played were in a different environment than the ~1600 minutes DDR played before the Allstar break with Fox, Coach Brown, Alex Len et al. It's a better comparison to look at the games they played on the same team

How much more evidence does anyone need to prove that Zach LaVine is killing his teams with his non-existent defense? I don't know how many times we have to see this same archetype before people will realize that a guy who does not contribute on defense is only helping you when they're making shots and they won't always be making shots. He spent 7 1/2 seasons as the guy in Chicago and only one of them (46 wins in 2021-2022) was a winning season. In fact, that was the only winning season he's been a part of in his entire NBA career. Is that a guy who should be described as a sure-thing #1 option? Maybe. For a team that has aspirations of winning more than 40-45 games? Probably not.

Knowing what I do now, if I could go back in time to 2011 and discourage Kings fans (myself included) from placing their hopes on Marcus Thornton or to 2017 when Buddy Hield shot the lights out for 25 games I would. Both times Kings fans convinced themselves that they'd found an offensive dynamo with their mid-season acquisition, pinned their future hopes on that player's scoring ability, and were let down when those players ultimately revealed themselves to be merely small sample size superstars once the lights were fully on. I'm just trying to do you all a favor and prevent you from getting fooled a third time.
 
Twice. LaVine has done this just twice in 11 seasons. So maybe you will move heaven and hell to accommodate a guy shooting .511 / .446 / .825 but will you make the same accommodations for a player shooting .470 / .391 / .833? Those are LaVine's career averages over 21,000 minutes and 10,000 FGA. And how do you explain given he shot the ball better than he ever has before and is supposed to be the key to this year's Kings offense, why the Kings were inexplicably worse with LaVine on the floor than off it for nearly all of the 1170 minutes he played for them last season?

When looking LaVines career stats you have to take into account his efficiency in Minnesota isn’t really relevant to the player he is today at 30 years old. He also tore his ACL in 2017. It took him time to recover, rehab and become the player he is now.

And as Jamal stated, can we really look at numbers from last season without taking into account all the turnover and chaos? To be traded midseason and adjust on the fly to a new team, new system, new schemes is already difficult without all the chaos. Let’s see if it’s the same result this season after some continuity and stability.
 
When looking LaVines career stats you have to take into account his efficiency in Minnesota isn’t really relevant to the player he is today at 30 years old. He also tore his ACL in 2017. It took him time to recover, rehab and become the player he is now.

And as Jamal stated, can we really look at numbers from last season without taking into account all the turnover and chaos? To be traded midseason and adjust on the fly to a new team, new system, new schemes is already difficult without all the chaos. Let’s see if it’s the same result this season after some continuity and stability.
This team isn’t good enough to be good and not bad enough to be bad. It at this point doesn’t really matter.

I would prefer Shroeder, Ellis, Clifford, Keegan, Maxine because I want to watch players develop and get a top 5 pick in this draft. But that choice was not an option.
 
LaVine ought to come off the bench.....but that won't happen opening day. If there's one player I can't stand on this current roster, he would be it. Snake bit on earlier injuries, and thus afraid to mix it up on defense and rebounding. And For being a ball handler, he's substandard with the pick and roll and passing.....take Monk over him all day at this point.
 
This team isn’t good enough to be good and not bad enough to be bad. It at this point doesn’t really matter.

I would prefer Shroeder, Ellis, Clifford, Keegan, Maxine because I want to watch players develop and get a top 5 pick in this draft. But that choice was not an option.
That sounds like about 18 out of the last 20 years of KANGZ! Thanks Ranadive for at least 10 of those :) --- keep doing your KANGZ part
 
How much more evidence does anyone need to prove that Zach LaVine is killing his teams with his non-existent defense? I don't know how many times we have to see this same archetype before people will realize that a guy who does not contribute on defense is only helping you when they're making shots and they won't always be making shots. He spent 7 1/2 seasons as the guy in Chicago and only one of them (46 wins in 2021-2022) was a winning season. In fact, that was the only winning season he's been a part of in his entire NBA career. Is that a guy who should be described as a sure-thing #1 option? Maybe. For a team that has aspirations of winning more than 40-45 games? Probably not.
That's a different thing to argue than that DDR is a significantly better player nowadays.

For all those 7.5 years, Zach played more than 65 games a season twice, one of those times they made the playoffs, the other they lost in the play-in vs the Heat; (who made it all the way to the finals.)

Knowing what I do now, if I could go back in time to 2011 and discourage Kings fans (myself included) from placing their hopes on Marcus Thornton or to 2017 when Buddy Hield shot the lights out for 25 games I would. Both times Kings fans convinced themselves that they'd found an offensive dynamo with their mid-season acquisition, pinned their future hopes on that player's scoring ability, and were let down when those players ultimately revealed themselves to be merely small sample size superstars once the lights were fully on. I'm just trying to do you all a favor and prevent you from getting fooled a third time.
LaVine has been the leading scorer on his team for most of his career, compared to Hield and Thornton, who were plucked from relative obscurity as prospects. It's not a case of small sample sizes, he is what he is.
 
How much more evidence does anyone need to prove that Zach LaVine is killing his teams with his non-existent defense? I don't know how many times we have to see this same archetype before people will realize that a guy who does not contribute on defense is only helping you when they're making shots and they won't always be making shots. He spent 7 1/2 seasons as the guy in Chicago and only one of them (46 wins in 2021-2022) was a winning season. In fact, that was the only winning season he's been a part of in his entire NBA career. Is that a guy who should be described as a sure-thing #1 option? Maybe. For a team that has aspirations of winning more than 40-45 games? Probably not.

Knowing what I do now, if I could go back in time to 2011 and discourage Kings fans (myself included) from placing their hopes on Marcus Thornton or to 2017 when Buddy Hield shot the lights out for 25 games I would. Both times Kings fans convinced themselves that they'd found an offensive dynamo with their mid-season acquisition, pinned their future hopes on that player's scoring ability, and were let down when those players ultimately revealed themselves to be merely small sample size superstars once the lights were fully on. I'm just trying to do you all a favor and prevent you from getting fooled a third time.
Most of us aren't pinning hopes on Zach. We hate his contract. We don't like the whole Fox situation that went down and definitely hate that it was a guy we all once were in love with (at least most of us) for a guy we all (mostly) considered to be on one of the worst contracts in the league.

I feel like you're conflating all of that and the fact that he kinda sorta has to play to start the season and those of us who just accept this as the reality as us embracing that reality. In my mind that contract can't end soon enough. If he wants to sign for 2 years on DDR salary so be it, if he moves on great. If we somehow can trade him to a team looking to offload a few years of extra salary to clear space for 2027 and get goodies back as we enter a full rebuild awesome.

That will also be the time we find out what we really lost with Fox. All of that is secondary to the fact we are going to start our highest paid player and the best shooter on the team.
 
We've seen seasons like this, where it's not about who starts on opening day or who finishes on opening day, it's about who starts the season and finishes the season. This has all the signs of a team on the ledge. The stars win or they go home. Simple as that. If they don't this team might look quite a bit different on the last day of the season compared to the first. If not roster wise rotation wise for sure. Doug comes from an era where for better or worse the vets are getting those minutes and he even coached that way last season. If the Kings are competitive early the young guys will probably all get put in here and there depending on need at the time. For DC to cut into any one of his veterans minutes it would have to be a disaster season for someone. Sure, maybe a game here and there a young guy gets those minutes but it'll be right back to normal the next game if it's not a consistent issue.
 
Most of us aren't pinning hopes on Zach. We hate his contract. We don't like the whole Fox situation that went down and definitely hate that it was a guy we all once were in love with (at least most of us) for a guy we all (mostly) considered to be on one of the worst contracts in the league.

I feel like you're conflating all of that and the fact that he kinda sorta has to play to start the season and those of us who just accept this as the reality as us embracing that reality. In my mind that contract can't end soon enough. If he wants to sign for 2 years on DDR salary so be it, if he moves on great. If we somehow can trade him to a team looking to offload a few years of extra salary to clear space for 2027 and get goodies back as we enter a full rebuild awesome.

That will also be the time we find out what we really lost with Fox. All of that is secondary to the fact we are going to start our highest paid player and the best shooter on the team.

The topic of this thread isn't "Who Will Start on Opening Day" it's "Who Would You Start on Opening Day". And you may not be arguing that LaVine starting makes us a better team today and for the future but the posters that I've been responding to are. I've given my reasons why I see that as not just a mistake but repeating the same mistake we've allowed to defeat us for over a decade. This is supposed to be a clean slate with a new coach and a new team identity but instead it feels like we've just found a new fall-guy to take the blame for the inevitable failure of a mismatched roster where roles continue to be assigned for contract reasons rather than who is best for the job.
 
The topic of this thread isn't "Who Will Start on Opening Day" it's "Who Would You Start on Opening Day". And you may not be arguing that LaVine starting makes us a better team today and for the future but the posters that I've been responding to are. I've given my reasons why I see that as not just a mistake but repeating the same mistake we've allowed to defeat us for over a decade. This is supposed to be a clean slate with a new coach and a new team identity but instead it feels like we've just found a new fall-guy to take the blame for the inevitable failure of a mismatched roster where roles continue to be assigned for contract reasons rather than who is best for the job.
Unless the league vacates the rosters and does a redraft there will never be a "clean slate".

I guess if GSW enter 2027 with one player under contract it will be the closest thing.
 
Unless the league vacates the rosters and does a redraft there will never be a "clean slate".

I guess if GSW enter 2027 with one player under contract it will be the closest thing.

Fair enough. But we could still try. If I'm a role player on this team and coach tells me I'm only going to play if I bust my but on defense and then I see the worst defender on the team playing 38 minutes a night how long will it be before I check out mentally and start thinking about my next job? Everyone wants to talk about culture at the start of the season but without reinforcing action those are just empty words. Our culture will continue to be the team players look at as "just a job" until proven otherwise.
 
Fair enough. But we could still try. If I'm a role player on this team and coach tells me I'm only going to play if I bust my but on defense and then I see the worst defender on the team playing 38 minutes a night how long will it be before I check out mentally and start thinking about my next job? Everyone wants to talk about culture at the start of the season but without reinforcing action those are just empty words. Our culture will continue to be the team players look at as "just a job" until proven otherwise.
If Zach plays no defense and averages 15 pts a night or shoots 30% from three he's out of a job. Conversely I would think another player who ignites for 30pts for several nights in a row buys some leeway on the other end. Domas is the same thing to a lesser extent, all the things he does right cover for his flaws. It just is what it is.

And it was the same with Fox if we're being honest. He'd drop ~100 over the course of two games and you forget all about his January dry spells for a hot minute and fantasize about him leading the team through the playoffs on his back but he also is who he is at this point and that is a fringe star best served as Robin or maybe even Robin's Robin.
 
LaVine is an elite shooter, can even be compared to Curry. But he doesn't play WINNING BASKETBALL!
His scoring often comes in isolation and low assist possessions. He's like Deebo in that sense, which doesn’t lift and involve teammates.
Winning basketball tends to emphasize playmaking and versatility over pure scoring, Curry says"hi".
 
If Zach plays no defense and averages 15 pts a night or shoots 30% from three he's out of a job. Conversely I would think another player who ignites for 30pts for several nights in a row buys some leeway on the other end. Domas is the same thing to a lesser extent, all the things he does right cover for his flaws. It just is what it is.

And it was the same with Fox if we're being honest. He'd drop ~100 over the course of two games and you forget all about his January dry spells for a hot minute and fantasize about him leading the team through the playoffs on his back but he also is who he is at this point and that is a fringe star best served as Robin or maybe even Robin's Robin.

Which, I think was the most frustrating aspect of Fox, looking back at his tenure here. When he was on, he's every bit as good as SGA/Luka/Steph, etc. But those guys never take games off; it's rare for them to ever have an off-night.

That 23-24 Jan (and even that Feb too) sticks out like a sore thumb. Dude was probably an outside MVP candidate and certainly on his way to an All-NBA nod and then just completely tanked that entire stretch. And it was just noticeable on film too that his energy levels weren't anywhere close to what he was doing at the start of the year.
 
Schroeder-Ellis-LaVine-Murray-Sabonis

We get:
3 good defenders that can defend full court
PNR with Schroder and Sabonis
3 3pt shooters
Fast transition game
Athletic help defense
Sabonis DHO setups to everyone

Bench:

Carter-Monk-Clifford-Derozan-Eubanks
 
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Fair enough. But we could still try. If I'm a role player on this team and coach tells me I'm only going to play if I bust my but on defense and then I see the worst defender on the team playing 38 minutes a night how long will it be before I check out mentally and start thinking about my next job? Everyone wants to talk about culture at the start of the season but without reinforcing action those are just empty words. Our culture will continue to be the team players look at as "just a job" until proven otherwise.
Busting your butt on defense and being a poor defender are not mutually exclusive.

As a coach, you want your players to be the best defenders they can be (effort) but that doesn’t necessarily mean they are going to be a good or even okay defender when it’s all said and done. Some players don’t have the instincts, reaction, anticipation, awareness, physical abilities, etc. to be an okay defender (even with effort).

Considering the type of offensive player LaVine is, I don’t see why Doug couldn’t instill that culture you reference IF LaVine is putting in the effort on the defensive end. It’s about everyone on the team buying in and putting in the effort on the defensive end (not necessarily about you personally being a good defender). If LaVine doesn’t do that and just coasts and slacks off on that end of the floor, then I agree that could impact the culture they’re trying to instill if Doug doesn’t address it with LaVine.





As for LaVine in general, I agree that he’s not a good defender. His defense is on par with guys like Jalen Brunson and Devin Booker. But you don’t see those teams throwing up their hands and saying “his defense is too weak. We have no shot of winning with him on the team.” No, instead they built their teams around them to become a serious contender.

When the Suns were at the top of the standings, Booker had Paul, Bridges, Crowder, and Ayton starting around him. 3 very good defenders and an average/below average defending C. Brunson had Bridges, Hart, Anunoby, & Towns around him. 3 very good defenders and an average/below average defending C.

As you can see, it’s not impossible to build a good team with a player whose defense is as bad as LaVine’s is. The issue with this comparison is that LaVine is not as good offensively as Brunson or Booker.

I’ve stated this before but LaVine is not good enough to be a #1 option and be the highest paid player on a team. To be that top paid player, you need to be an efficient, volume scorer (which LaVine is) but you also need to be at least one of two things…1) a good defender or 2) a good playmaker. LaVine is neither of these things which is why he shouldn’t be viewed as a max player and should be a #2 option at most on a serious contender.

I think it’s pretty clear as to why LaVine is not a good defender, but in terms of playmaking, you ideally want someone with a AST:TO of 2 or higher. Unfortunately, that’s not LaVine. He doesn’t post very high ASTs and he turns the ball over a fair amount. That’s not something you want as your #1 option.

So knowing that LaVine is not good enough to be a #1 option, I think he gets a bad reputation in terms of his impact on winning because he has largely been cast as the #1 option on his teams. Some fans look at his career and say “he doesn’t get you to the playoffs so he’s not a winning player.” I disagree. He does impact winning in a positive way, but thrusting him into a #1 role and paying him close to $50 mil does not justify the impact he brings. LaVine on a smaller contract next to a true #1 would find much more success.

Now for our sake, we’re likely saying if we can get a true #1 next to LaVine & Sabonis, we’d be looking really good. However, considering LaVine & Sabonis are both below average defenders, you’d also likely need that #1 to be a good defender which means you’re really looking for the elite of the elite (SGA, Giannis, Tatum, Wemby, etc.).

This is why I largely think the LaVine & Sabonis pairing will be short lived. You already need a special type of PF next to Sabonis to complement his game but now we’re needing a special type of #1 option which are virtually untradeable.

If Sabonis is staying here, we’re likely going to trade LaVine when he’s an expiring, let him fall off the books for cap space, or resign him for 3rd option type of money ($20-25 mil). Now he may want more money than that (and I wouldn’t necessarily blame him), but considering our roster construction, we’d need him to take a big pay cut or his Kings career will likely be limited.
 
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Busting your butt on defense and being a poor defender are not mutually exclusive.

As a coach, you want your players to be the best defenders they can be (effort) but that doesn’t necessarily mean they are going to be a good or even okay defender when it’s all said and done. Some players don’t have the instincts, reaction, anticipation, awareness, physical abilities, etc. to be an okay defender (even with effort).

Considering the type of offensive player LaVine is, I don’t see why Doug couldn’t instill that culture you reference IF LaVine is putting in the effort on the defensive end. It’s about everyone on the team buying in and putting in the effort on the defensive end (not necessarily about you personally being a good defender). If LaVine doesn’t do that and just coasts and slacks off on that end of the floor, then I agree that could impact the culture they’re trying to instill if Doug doesn’t address it with LaVine.

It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. He's done that for 12 years already. I seriously doubt he's never had a coach who asked him to play defense before. He played one year for Tom Thibodeau in Minnesota after all. And still his biggest problem on defense remains exactly that ... a lack of effort. He might make the effort for the first couple of weeks of this season if Doug really gets on him, but he's eventually going to revert to being who he is. Sure we can hope that some kind of hidden light bulb comes on but is it reasonable to expect an NBA player who is now in his 12th year to suddenly start doing something that he's never done before? I don't think it is.

As for LaVine in general, I agree that he’s not a good defender. His defense is on par with guys like Jalen Brunson and Devin Booker. But you don’t see those teams throwing up their hands and saying “his defense is too weak. We have no shot of winning with him on the team.” No, instead they built their teams around them to become a serious contender.

When the Suns were at the top of the standings, Booker had Paul, Bridges, Crowder, and Ayton starting around him. 3 very good defenders and an average/below average defending C. Brunson had Bridges, Hart, Anunoby, & Towns around him. 3 very good defenders and an average/below average defending C.

As you can see, it’s not impossible to build a good team with a player whose defense is as bad as LaVine’s is. The issue with this comparison is that LaVine is not as good offensively as Brunson or Booker.

I’ve stated this before but LaVine is not good enough to be a #1 option and be the highest paid player on a team. To be that top paid player, you need to be an efficient, volume scorer (which LaVine is) but you also need to be at least one of two things…1) a good defender or 2) a good playmaker. LaVine is neither of these things which is why he shouldn’t be viewed as a max player and should be a #2 option at most on a serious contender.

Well yeah, I've been advocating for building a winning team defense ad infinitum and when you do that you can compensate for one poor defender who is your #1 offensive weapon. Teams do that because it's hard enough to acquire a star player. Once you've got one, you sortof have to live with their limitations. Our front office personnel don't seem to understand the concept though because they at best sign one good defender in the off-season and it's usually someone on a two-way contract who will have to fight to get any playing time.

And this is what I meant when I wrote "why are we catering to Zach LaVine". He is not our franchise player and I don't understand why any Kings fan would act like he is. Do we need to keep him on the floor because he's the closest thing we've got to a #1 option? I don't think so. The goal of this team should not be to win as many games as possible in the 2025-2026 season, it should be to build toward creating a team which can win a playoff series at some point in the near future. We do that by continuing to develop the young players we have who are good defenders, shooters, and playmakers and creating a culture around them which reinforces good habits.

I think it’s pretty clear as to why LaVine is not a good defender, but in terms of playmaking, you ideally want someone with a AST:TO of 2 or higher. Unfortunately, that’s not LaVine. He doesn’t post very high ASTs and he turns the ball over a fair amount. That’s not something you want as your #1 option.

So knowing that LaVine is not good enough to be a #1 option, I think he gets a bad reputation in terms of his impact on winning because he has largely been cast as the #1 option on his teams. Some fans look at his career and say “he doesn’t get you to the playoffs so he’s not a winning player.” I disagree. He does impact winning in a positive way, but thrusting him into a #1 role and paying him close to $50 mil does not justify the impact he brings. LaVine on a smaller contract next to a true #1 would find much more success.

Now for our sake, we’re likely saying if we can get a true #1 next to LaVine & Sabonis, we’d be looking really good. However, considering LaVine & Sabonis are both below average defenders, you’d also likely need that #1 to be a good defender which means you’re really looking for the elite of the elite (SGA, Giannis, Tatum, Wemby, etc.).

This is why I largely think the LaVine & Sabonis pairing will be short lived. You already need a special type of PF next to Sabonis to complement his game but now we’re needing a special type of #1 option which are virtually untradeable.

If Sabonis is staying here, we’re likely going to trade LaVine when he’s an expiring, let him fall off the books for cap space, or resign him for 3rd option type of money ($20-25 mil). Now he may want more money than that (and I wouldn’t necessarily blame him), but considering our roster construction, we’d need him to take a big pay cut or his Kings career will likely be limited.

So you've come to the same conclusion I have, that this Sabonis and LaVine pairing is untenable as a team-building strategy. It requires us to find 3 high level defenders in the starting lineup while having no financial flexibility under the cap due to their salaries. And even if Scott Perry pulls off some kind of miracle and builds a winning defense around these two and then LaVine agrees to re-sign for half of his current yearly salary, they're already 29 and 30 years old. How long of a window do we realistically have to keep that core together, healthy, and ascending the standings to make a run at a long playoff run? If we all see the same freight train barreling toward us on the tracks, isn't the best time to make a change "right now, as soon as possible" not "let's wait and see how this goes for awhile"?
 
I see all the lavine hate, and I don’t get it. Sure he maybe overpaid, but he is extremely talented on the offensive end. He moves the ball unlike the guy missing from my starting lineup. I would go Schroeder, Ellis, lavine, keegan, Sabonis
 
I see all the lavine hate, and I don’t get it. Sure he maybe overpaid, but he is extremely talented on the offensive end. He moves the ball unlike the guy missing from my starting lineup. I would go Schroeder, Ellis, lavine, keegan, Sabonis

# of times Zach LaVine has averaged over 5 assists per game for a season: 0
# of times "the guy missing from your starting lineup" has averaged over 5 assists per game for a season: 6
 
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