boy am i glad some of you arent our gm. and im sick of u guys always complaining. we can only go up as a team. if you arent going to suppport this team then shut your mouth. im tired of reading negativity here. we are rebuilding. get over it. it has been time to do so for a while. we have excellent pieces going forward. STOP THE NEGATIVITY
Josh Smith is not a superstar.
Rudy Gay is not a superstar.
There are various arguments to be made for and against those players vis a vis Kevin, but I doubt you trade the guy you drafted/know for a similar level player you don't. And neither of those guys solves the essential problem that I assume this thread was about -- somehow acquiring that centerpiece player. Kevin's obviously not it. But neither are his peers. Finding "it" is one fo the great questions going forward for us. Only 1 team in the last 30 years has won a title without a HOF player on it.
Rudy Gay is not a superstar.
There are various arguments to be made for and against those players vis a vis Kevin, but I doubt you trade the guy you drafted/know for a similar level player you don't. And neither of those guys solves the essential problem that I assume this thread was about -- somehow acquiring that centerpiece player. Kevin's obviously not it. But neither are his peers. Finding "it" is one fo the great questions going forward for us. Only 1 team in the last 30 years has won a title without a HOF player on it.
A legitimate question. But unfortunately, a lot of people (myself included) don't agree with how the rebuild is being done. Doesn't mean we don't love the Kings, just the way the rebuild is happening.
Now some people will always find something to complain about and mostly they just get ignored. I think what's happening right now, after the last few years, is more legitimate frustration than pointless complaining.
Now some people will always find something to complain about and mostly they just get ignored. I think what's happening right now, after the last few years, is more legitimate frustration than pointless complaining.
You didn't "ask for a generally more positive atmosphere"... You went over the line.
People have a right to their opinion, provided they follow the rules of the board. If you're sick of the complaining of one or two members, put them on your IGNORE list. It's a marvelous little feature...
Let's get back to the topic at hand, mmmmkay?
People have a right to their opinion, provided they follow the rules of the board. If you're sick of the complaining of one or two members, put them on your IGNORE list. It's a marvelous little feature...
Let's get back to the topic at hand, mmmmkay?
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ugh... thats not gutting the team if we end up with more players than we trade away.... especially if you trade them after their contracts are up... miller and bibby had 1 year left on their contracts. we trade bibby and now we have beno... great job.... we trade miller and now we have nocioni.... great job..... artest was a shot at mediocrity that failed miserably....
i mean start over and build a team... what we have now is a bunch of scrubs. i'll cheer for the kings but thats like cheering for a previously recorded game that we won. this team has no identity, no go to scorer, defender, rebounder. we arent even the best of the worst because atleast okc has a real star in kevin durant...... if this is rebuilding then what the hell did portland do? even without oden they are a better team than the kings... and they started with a lot less than we did. but their gm made moves that improved the team.
the only improvement that this team has made in the past 4 years was firing mussellman and hiring theus. it was a 5 game improvement but then we followed it by losing a team record 65 games... i support the name on the front of the jersey not the back, i dont care anymore if martin, hawes, thompson or whoever is on this team anymore. those are the same professional athletes who won 17 freaking games last season. we fired mussellman for only winning 33 games, thats almost twice as many games as last season. thas a damn shame.... hiring him should have been the low point of our now 5 year and counting rebuild.....
Well stated. I think that sums up what a good number of fans are feeling, as evidenced by the diminishing ticket sales. This is a city that will support losers but once we got a taste for winning, we want it back. Unfortunately, rebuilding comes with losses and right now, there doesn't seem to be a clear path to get the good times back.
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^^^^ dude its okay... without emoticons and bold, captial letters i cant tell if anyone on the internet is mad. where were the exclamation points?
i dont mind losing either if we had a team with an identity and chemistry that just werent good enough to win. how many close games did we lose this season over a dumb move that every other player wouldnt have made. its like in the finals how the magic were up by 5 or 6 points in the 4th but you knew if they took a dumb three and missed that they would lose... and they did. thats what last season was like....
thats why i came up with trading martin and nocioni for tmac... that way all of the young players would be forced to just learn how to play basketball on a nba level. martin would have to be sacrificed for the good of the team in the long run. get rid of all of the players that we dont need and build from the inside out. we have hawes, thompson, greene, evans and sergio... now lets go from there. martin, beno, garcia and nocioni are a waste... any player not on a rookie contract is just gonna slow us down unless they are star players... evans cant learn to be a great player playing behind martin and garcia. thompson and hawes will never learn their positions with beno as their starting pg. he just cant find them in the spots where they need to get the ball. greene is buried behind half of our roster, same goes for omri.... we could build a good young team if we get rid of some of those players. because we all know that we wont be able to trade beno and nocioni until their contracts are damn near expiring and we will just get more long contracts in exchange for them.
i dont mind losing either if we had a team with an identity and chemistry that just werent good enough to win. how many close games did we lose this season over a dumb move that every other player wouldnt have made. its like in the finals how the magic were up by 5 or 6 points in the 4th but you knew if they took a dumb three and missed that they would lose... and they did. thats what last season was like....
thats why i came up with trading martin and nocioni for tmac... that way all of the young players would be forced to just learn how to play basketball on a nba level. martin would have to be sacrificed for the good of the team in the long run. get rid of all of the players that we dont need and build from the inside out. we have hawes, thompson, greene, evans and sergio... now lets go from there. martin, beno, garcia and nocioni are a waste... any player not on a rookie contract is just gonna slow us down unless they are star players... evans cant learn to be a great player playing behind martin and garcia. thompson and hawes will never learn their positions with beno as their starting pg. he just cant find them in the spots where they need to get the ball. greene is buried behind half of our roster, same goes for omri.... we could build a good young team if we get rid of some of those players. because we all know that we wont be able to trade beno and nocioni until their contracts are damn near expiring and we will just get more long contracts in exchange for them.
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I think the worst part is over. We've got some good young players, we've got a new coach, and we've (knock on wood) got an absence of drama surrounding the team.
Most fans I talk to are excited about the upcoming season; they want to see more of Jason and Spencer, they want to see just what Evans is all about and they're hoping to see a healthy Kevin Martin get back to doing what he does best.
I just won't buy into the description of our current team as a bunch of scrubs, BTW, Aries. You're making broad generalizations about a group of young men that has NEVER even taken the court together.
KM23 - Lots of class to apologize. Props.
Most fans I talk to are excited about the upcoming season; they want to see more of Jason and Spencer, they want to see just what Evans is all about and they're hoping to see a healthy Kevin Martin get back to doing what he does best.
I just won't buy into the description of our current team as a bunch of scrubs, BTW, Aries. You're making broad generalizations about a group of young men that has NEVER even taken the court together.
KM23 - Lots of class to apologize. Props.
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ugh... i meant scrubs in the nicest way possible... but seriously, how many teams would our starting roster start for? besides martin and even then there are maybe 6 teams(not including ours) that he would be the starting sg. you could name 2 or 3 teams for thompson and hawes. beno wouldnt start for any of the other 29 teams and neither would nocioni or garcia depending on who you have starting at sf.
AriesMar27 - The Kings are a work in progress. You talk about getting younger players in one breath and then talk about how our starting roster wouldn't start on other teams. You can't have it both ways...Like I said, I think I'll wait until I actually see what our 2009 team is like. I do know I've already arranged to see more games at Arco...and I know I'll have a good time. Sometimes you get out of the experience what you're looking to find. I choose to look for the things that give hope and make watching an enjoyable experience. And I've got a lot more reason to hope with this newest version of the Kings than I've had in several years.
I personally think TMAC is done but I agree that our roster is in a tough spot. We don't have the veterans to compete with the good team in the leagues and our youngsters/cap space/draft picks don't seem to be as strong as most of the rebuilding ones. So, there's a little bit of hope and see involved in being enthusiastic about this team's prospects.
Will we improve from this year? I sure hope so and think we should, if for no other reason than I'm not sure we could get worse. Is that a sign that we're headed on the right path? Hmmm...
Will we improve from this year? I sure hope so and think we should, if for no other reason than I'm not sure we could get worse. Is that a sign that we're headed on the right path? Hmmm...
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AriesMar27 - The Kings are a work in progress. You talk about getting younger players in one breath and then talk about how our starting roster wouldn't start on other teams. You can't have it both ways...Like I said, I think I'll wait until I actually see what our 2009 team is like. I do know I've already arranged to see more games at Arco...and I know I'll have a good time. Sometimes you get out of the experience what you're looking to find. I choose to look for the things that give hope and make watching an enjoyable experience. And I've got a lot more reason to hope with this newest version of the Kings than I've had in several years.
who said they couldnt be young scrubs? and as long as they are kings they will be my scrubs. but lets not kid ourselves, they are scrubs. you cant win 33, 38 and 17 games and not be considered a scrub. the laker bench is better than our starting lineup. it doesnt mean we cant get better but it also doesnt mean that we are in any way, shape or form a good team. im not gonna disown them for losing, but i will criticize the hell out of them for losing until they get it right.
Fine. Don't let anything like an almost total turnover in personnel in the past three years, another new coach and silly stuff like that stop you from your tirades.
No one has said they're a "good team"... but I know that won't dissuade you in the least. Never has, if memory serves...
Feel free to "criticize the hell out of them for losing"... I think I'll wait to see how they actually play the game before I make any comment about things like winning and losing.
No one has said they're a "good team"... but I know that won't dissuade you in the least. Never has, if memory serves...
Feel free to "criticize the hell out of them for losing"... I think I'll wait to see how they actually play the game before I make any comment about things like winning and losing.
Kevin is what he is. He is a pure scorer. You can build around pure scorers. HE is the 7th leading scorer in the NBA and is more efficient than everyone above him at doing it. He is what he is. You can build around him like the Pacers did around Reggie. Is he Reggie Miller? No, he isn't as clutch but both were basically as pure scorers as you can get. Did Reggie ever win a title? No, but they got close. I definitely don't think you trade Kevin for scraps right now. T-Mac is a scrap. He's done. He is an inefficient bulk scorer at his best who is a good passer and medicore at just about everything else.
Would it be better if Kevin did other things well? Of course. but he is what he is. Will just have to build around him. You guys do realize that Kevin averaged more PPG than CP3, Melo, Bosh, Brandon Roy, Tony Parker, Devin Harris, etc. Obviously they all do other things well but I think it would be a shame to trade him right now. he's only 26, we just need better players around him. And hope he doesn't get hurt. I don't think JT, Hawes, Evans, etc. are bad, they just are young. Without a superstar left behind, we were bound for a slow re-build. And unless we pull a Gasol for nothing deal like the Lakers did a couple of years ago--it could be a couple of more years. It's not like next year if we had a ton of cap money that players would be hoping to come to Sacramento. I say we see what we have before blowing it up already. Maybe Evans becomes the HOF player we need, if not it's not like we are going to be able to trade for a young HOF player nor can we sign one next year in the off-season. I'd be willing to bet a ton of money, Bosh, Lebron or Wade doesn't come to town as a FA next off season.
Would it be better if Kevin did other things well? Of course. but he is what he is. Will just have to build around him. You guys do realize that Kevin averaged more PPG than CP3, Melo, Bosh, Brandon Roy, Tony Parker, Devin Harris, etc. Obviously they all do other things well but I think it would be a shame to trade him right now. he's only 26, we just need better players around him. And hope he doesn't get hurt. I don't think JT, Hawes, Evans, etc. are bad, they just are young. Without a superstar left behind, we were bound for a slow re-build. And unless we pull a Gasol for nothing deal like the Lakers did a couple of years ago--it could be a couple of more years. It's not like next year if we had a ton of cap money that players would be hoping to come to Sacramento. I say we see what we have before blowing it up already. Maybe Evans becomes the HOF player we need, if not it's not like we are going to be able to trade for a young HOF player nor can we sign one next year in the off-season. I'd be willing to bet a ton of money, Bosh, Lebron or Wade doesn't come to town as a FA next off season.
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Your post went offline when you hit your third blurb there.
No you can't. At least not if you're planning on winning anything. Support staff. Especially when you are talking about a SG or SF.
To that degree this thread was on point -- you can't build anything except a 17 win team around a Kevin type player, and so short of hoping Spencer, or Jason or Tyreke emerge spectacularly to save you, how do you get that player you can build around? Unfortunately the rest of the league knows this is support staff too, and the ones lucky enough to have foundational players aren't going to trade them to you for a player who does nothing but score anymore than they would trade you a superstar for Michael Redd or Corey Maggette. That's where this thread veers off from on point to mostly fantasy. There's nothing much to do except hope that somebody makes a desperately stupid error like Hornacek for Barkley, or possibly take a gamble turning Kevin inot a Top 5 draft pick and crossing your fingers you get a great one there.
No you can't. At least not if you're planning on winning anything. Support staff. Especially when you are talking about a SG or SF.
To that degree this thread was on point -- you can't build anything except a 17 win team around a Kevin type player, and so short of hoping Spencer, or Jason or Tyreke emerge spectacularly to save you, how do you get that player you can build around? Unfortunately the rest of the league knows this is support staff too, and the ones lucky enough to have foundational players aren't going to trade them to you for a player who does nothing but score anymore than they would trade you a superstar for Michael Redd or Corey Maggette. That's where this thread veers off from on point to mostly fantasy. There's nothing much to do except hope that somebody makes a desperately stupid error like Hornacek for Barkley, or possibly take a gamble turning Kevin inot a Top 5 draft pick and crossing your fingers you get a great one there.
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Looks like Boston just won a title with Ray Allen. Allen had some success previously although no titles. Obviously you can't win with Kevin Martin alone. But you can't win with Kobe Bryant or Lebron James alone either. Kobe needed Gasol and a bunch of other help--and Lebron couldn't beat the Magic last year. Obviously it's easier to build around other players. But I'm pretty sure Kevin Martin could easily be #2 bear on a very good team. He'd look great with a player like Lebron, Kobe, etc. I think it would be a mistake to trade him for nothing. You shouldn't trade away players like him in the hopes of getting something much better than him. It just isn't going to happen right now.
We need to improve his surroundings. Looks like the team has some talent, let's see if they can thrive. Obviously it'll be imposssible to win a title with Kevin alone. Obviously it'll be tough to win with Kevin even as #2 bear, but we can hope. Redd, Maggette also have other fundamental problems. Redd like Kevin can't stay healthy. Maggette is just a selfish player and also has injury issues. Kevin also has had injury issues the last 2 seasons. We need him to stay healthy. We were a 17 win team b/c we have many other fundamental problems. Udrih is a horrible PG. Thompson and Hawes are extremely young and make for maybe the least opposing defensive front line in the NBA. Our 3 situation hasn't been solved. We had multiple trades last year during the season. Kevin was injured for over a third of the year. We had 2 coaches. We traded our best player in Ron Ron for nothing. We traded Salmons and Brad for scraps, the list goes on and on.
I guess build around was the wrong term. But keep around to keep as a very good #2 or #3 option might be optimal word choice. I think it would be a mistake to trade him. Just like now it looks like it was a mistake to trade Gasol from Memphis. They have just replaced him with Zbo who is about a 3rd of the player he is for almost the same price a season and a half later. Much like Kevin, I don't think Gasol is a very good #1 option--but a both are very viable #2 options on good teams imo. Obviously Kevin has monster issues defensively and other than shooting he isn't that great, but teams need pure scorers. Obviously it's better to have multi faced players but he is who is he is.
We need to improve his surroundings. Looks like the team has some talent, let's see if they can thrive. Obviously it'll be imposssible to win a title with Kevin alone. Obviously it'll be tough to win with Kevin even as #2 bear, but we can hope. Redd, Maggette also have other fundamental problems. Redd like Kevin can't stay healthy. Maggette is just a selfish player and also has injury issues. Kevin also has had injury issues the last 2 seasons. We need him to stay healthy. We were a 17 win team b/c we have many other fundamental problems. Udrih is a horrible PG. Thompson and Hawes are extremely young and make for maybe the least opposing defensive front line in the NBA. Our 3 situation hasn't been solved. We had multiple trades last year during the season. Kevin was injured for over a third of the year. We had 2 coaches. We traded our best player in Ron Ron for nothing. We traded Salmons and Brad for scraps, the list goes on and on.
I guess build around was the wrong term. But keep around to keep as a very good #2 or #3 option might be optimal word choice. I think it would be a mistake to trade him. Just like now it looks like it was a mistake to trade Gasol from Memphis. They have just replaced him with Zbo who is about a 3rd of the player he is for almost the same price a season and a half later. Much like Kevin, I don't think Gasol is a very good #1 option--but a both are very viable #2 options on good teams imo. Obviously Kevin has monster issues defensively and other than shooting he isn't that great, but teams need pure scorers. Obviously it's better to have multi faced players but he is who is he is.
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Looks like Boston just won a title with Ray Allen??
I assume you know how silly that sounds (and yes, your simul-edit addressed that). At best the third most important piece there, and maybe even the 4th (Rondo). And they obviously hardly built around him. Its a poor example, but of course you aren't going to find many/any examples of building champions around shooters. We saw for a lot of years what building around Ray Allen does for you with half a decade of franchise killing suck up in Seattle -- and there they didn't just try to build around one pure scorer, they had TWO (Rashard Lewis). Next you can tell me how Orlando built their Finals run aorund Rashard Lewis.
No, pure scorer = good third amigo. But nothing more. They just aren't that valuable. They are like wide recievers in football. Add nothing at all without the great QB, bruising running game, and roleplaying offensive line. If they are your best guys, you are the Cincinatti Bengals. In fact by far the majority of championship teams int he last few decades haven't bothered to emply one at all -- they have gotten all the shooting they needed out of roleplayers who take care of business defensively and then hit shots when called upon rather than wasting time and capspace with soft little purebloods.
I assume you know how silly that sounds (and yes, your simul-edit addressed that). At best the third most important piece there, and maybe even the 4th (Rondo). And they obviously hardly built around him. Its a poor example, but of course you aren't going to find many/any examples of building champions around shooters. We saw for a lot of years what building around Ray Allen does for you with half a decade of franchise killing suck up in Seattle -- and there they didn't just try to build around one pure scorer, they had TWO (Rashard Lewis). Next you can tell me how Orlando built their Finals run aorund Rashard Lewis.
No, pure scorer = good third amigo. But nothing more. They just aren't that valuable. They are like wide recievers in football. Add nothing at all without the great QB, bruising running game, and roleplaying offensive line. If they are your best guys, you are the Cincinatti Bengals. In fact by far the majority of championship teams int he last few decades haven't bothered to emply one at all -- they have gotten all the shooting they needed out of roleplayers who take care of business defensively and then hit shots when called upon rather than wasting time and capspace with soft little purebloods.
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Looks like Larry Fitzgerald almost carried his team to a title this year with your little analogy. Also Jerry Rice didn't hurt the careers of Joe Montana and Steve Young. He also made Rich Gannon look like a HOFer in Oakland.
In the NBA you almost need 2 HOF players to win a title. I guess if we wait for that in Sacramento--we might be waiting forever.
Your right Kevin is what he is. But honestly we aren't going to get what we want for him, a true superstar young or too old. I can't see trading him for nothing. I guess we need to hope that Thompson, Hawes or Evans turns into gold in the next couple of seasons.
In the NBA you almost need 2 HOF players to win a title. I guess if we wait for that in Sacramento--we might be waiting forever.
Your right Kevin is what he is. But honestly we aren't going to get what we want for him, a true superstar young or too old. I can't see trading him for nothing. I guess we need to hope that Thompson, Hawes or Evans turns into gold in the next couple of seasons.
Kevin is a good second/third fiddle. I'm sure that we have some all-star players developing for us right now, but we have such a young team it is going to take a while. The worry for me is that when this team is ready to contend, Kevin will be past his prime.
And I don't mean to crown anybody at this point, but best case scenario is Jason Thompson, Tyreke Evans, Donte Greene grow into the other 'star' roles that this team needs.
I personally think Evans will fall somewhere between John Salmons and a mini-Lebron James. I don't expect that to happen, it is more of just an observation. Like I said, I don't mean to crown anybody, but these prospects are enough to get me excited.