What should be Tyreke's role?

[Gary]

Indeed, teams often do this when their young stars start dominating basketball games. Wonderful idea.

Win some games with that "star" of yours dominating and then we can talk.. When a teams losing and this "star" is dominating the ball something is wrong. Evans is not a star player. It's laughable that you even bring that up.

 

[ParniValjak]

Was kind of trying to use it as an example to get Evans to play like a PG..

With most people on this board I can't win either way. I come out when we draft him and say he's not a PG and get railed on, and now when I say I want him to TRY to play like a PG people ***** at me and say he's not that kind of player. Which is it?

He is a lead guard....you know the type of player that championship teams tend to have. You know, get it done type of guard. Not your definition of PG but maybe its time to read Phil Jackson's comments on PGs and it just might click with you. I won't be holding my breath though.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

Win some games with that "star" of yours dominating and then we can talk.. When a teams losing and this "star" is dominating the ball something is wrong. Evans is not a star player. It's laughable that you even bring that up.

We'll see how long you continue laughing. Right now I'm looking at 27 ppg 6.5 rpg 6.5 apg with the new coach and a 1-1 record. Its a new season from here on out.

 

[IfAt1st]

Hey, Gary -
I'm all for critiquing a Kings player when he's sucking, but calling out Tyreke after his past 2 games of lighting up the court (minus his occasional dumb decision) smacks of inelegant timing, to say the least.

Why don't you at least wait till he doesn't have his best 2 games in almost 2 years?

 

[Bricklayer]

Was kind of trying to use it as an example to get Evans to play like a PG..

With most people on this board I can't win either way. I come out when we draft him and say he's not a PG and get railed on, and now when I say I want him to TRY to play like a PG people ***** at me and say he's not that kind of player. Which is it?

Most of us would like you just to progress beyond the middle school definition of PG. If he brings the ball up, calls the play, and gets the team into the offense, he's the PG. If the offense works, then he's done his job. If he's the best option to score, he's still done his job. If the team shoots 52% as it did last time, he's done his job. Given that last game was the first time all season there was an apparent offense to run, and that Tyreke responded with a 28pt 8ast night, perhaps just perhaps we could wait a bit on all this?

BTW, the only starting PG in the league who would meet your 8 shots a game critieria is Mario Chalmers, who is contractually not allowed to shoot by his Big Three. Tyreke is 8th in the league in shots as a PG. Ahead of him on the list are players including Deron Williams, last year's MVP, last year's ROY, Brandon Jennings, Jarret Jack and Russel Westbrook. Oh, and DJ Augustin, who you wanted to trade Tyreke to get. Oh, and BTW, Tyreke is shooting better than any of them this season.

 

[Dime Dropper]

And boom goes the dynamite.

 

[Lockehead]

Im willing to wait and see how Reke plays as a PG under Smart. I think its safe to say that under WP he showed that he was not a PG and didnt know how to be a PG. But lets see what happens under Smart.

 

[rainmaker]

Was kind of trying to use it as an example to get Evans to play like a PG..

With most people on this board I can't win either way. I come out when we draft him and say he's not a PG and get railed on, and now when I say I want him to TRY to play like a PG people ***** at me and say he's not that kind of player. Which is it?

I'd say it's more your lack of understanding involving the game.

You haven't brought up the system under Westy, and how poorly Reke was used in it. You haven't commented on how that system played to Reke's weaknesses, not his strengths. Likewise, you haven't commented on the differences with Smarts offense, all of two game, and how much better Reke is being used, and the positions he's being put in are more tailored to his strengths.

It's much easier to say Reke can't play the point, when you don't realize Westy's offense never really had a point, and instead was interchangeable between the 1, 2 and 3. It's much easier to say he can't play point, when simply looking at the box score, instead of watching and counting how many wide open shots teammates have bricked which he's set up. Or that many passing lanes which should be there, simply weren't, because under Westy we had such horrible spacing.

This is all really the tip of the iceberg. Hell, you haven't even acknowledged Reke has played under one coach his entire career, where it's becoming more and more obvious he didn't have a clue how to implement an offense. Nor have you mentioned how Reke is now averaging 26+ per game, and his assists have shot up, in all of two games under a new head coach, which is btw only his 2nd head coach in the league. I'd doubt you even know why Reke looks so much better in the new offense. Probably chalk it up to luck.

 

[Tetsujin]

I seriously think they should put a 8 shot limit on Evans for a couple weeks.. See what he can do with that. See if he starts to figure out how to pass the ball. He's supposed to be our PG and he's averaging 3.8 apg and 2.8 TOpg.. That's beyond horrible. Not to mention he's still taking 2 3pt shots a game when he KNOWS he's only hitting 20% of them. It's these little things that he needs to do in order to be a better player. I don't know if he thinks he HAS to shoot those shots or if he lacks the ability to see the floor or both.. Who knows.

Errrr. Really? You do watch the games right?


I know you're still bitter about Petrie not picking Rubio but come on, at least use arguments that make some semblance of sense.

 

[Gary]

Most of us would like you just to progress beyond the middle school definition of PG. If he brings the ball up, calls the play, and gets the team into the offense, he's the PG. If the offense works, then he's done his job. If he's the best option to score, he's still done his job. If the team shoots 52% as it did last time, he's done his job. Given that last game was the first time all season there was an apparent offense to run, and that Tyreke responded with a 28pt 8ast night, perhaps just perhaps we could wait a bit on all this?

BTW, the only starting PG in the league who would meet your 8 shots a game critieria is Mario Chalmers, who is contractually not allowed to shoot by his Big Three. Tyreke is 8th in the league in shots as a PG. Ahead of him on the list are players including Deron Williams, last year's MVP, last year's ROY, Brandon Jennings, Jarret Jack and Russel Westbrook. Oh, and DJ Augustin, who you wanted to trade Tyreke to get. Oh, and BTW, Tyreke is shooting better than any of them this season.

First off I never came out and said I wanted to trade Evans for Augustin. Read the post. I said If it was my team and I knew we were going to have Augustin on the team I would look at moving one of the ball dominant guards.

And you like the stats for the last game or the last two games don't you? OK how about this stat for the season... 3.8apg 2.8topg from your "star" PG so far this year...

And before you say "It's Westphal's fault!" Tyreke won ROY under Westphal so why is it so hard to fit in with a team when his purpose is to score and dish? Why is it that people still call Evans a PG? Because he brings the ball up and either holds it for 15 seconds or drops off to someone who then in turn plays 1 on 1 because they know if they give the ball up they wont be seeing it back?

Is it too hard to ask for a PG to do what a PG is supposed to do? And what's with the middle school jab? Last time I checked a PG is supposed to run the offense and get the ball to his open teammates at the right time.

 

[Gary]

Errrr. Really? You do watch the games right?


I know you're still bitter about Petrie not picking Rubio but come on, at least use arguments that make some semblance of sense.

Sure I am buddy. I know you guys are all butthurt because I was right and you got nothing to come back with except Rubio takes.

And no.. I don't watch the games.. I just travel to PBP every and sit in my seat backwards and play with my iPad the whole game.

 

[KingsCitizen]

Last time I checked, Westbrook was the most turnover prone PG in the league but OKC went to the WC Finals because of that shoot first and turnover prone PG.
There is an evolution of PGs in this league that maybe old timers tend to ignore.
The likes of Rose, Westbrook, and Reke are one of a kind that teams that land with these kids better assemble their team to these kids' strengths rather than force them to play SG because they can shoot volumes effortlessly.
Maybe some would say, we'll Dallas went to Finals with Kidd, a pass first PG. We'll I think Dallas would take Westbrook over Kidd 10 out of 10 and would still end up NBA champions.

 

[Gary]

I'd say it's more your lack of understanding involving the game.

You haven't brought up the system under Westy, and how poorly Reke was used in it. You haven't commented on how that system played to Reke's weaknesses, not his strengths. Likewise, you haven't commented on the differences with Smarts offense, all of two game, and how much better Reke is being used, and the positions he's being put in are more tailored to his strengths.

It's much easier to say Reke can't play the point, when you don't realize Westy's offense never really had a point, and instead was interchangeable between the 1, 2 and 3. It's much easier to say he can't play point, when simply looking at the box score, instead of watching and counting how many wide open shots teammates have bricked which he's set up. Or that many passing lanes which should be there, simply weren't, because under Westy we had such horrible spacing.

This is all really the tip of the iceberg. Hell, you haven't even acknowledged Reke has played under one coach his entire career, where it's becoming more and more obvious he didn't have a clue how to implement an offense. Nor have you mentioned how Reke is now averaging 26+ per game, and his assists have shot up, in all of two games under a new head coach, which is btw only his 2nd head coach in the league. I'd doubt you even know why Reke looks so much better in the new offense. Probably chalk it up to luck.

Reke got ROY under Westphal's coaching. I understand perfectly how the game is supposed to be played. I think the rest of you that are trying to put me down are the ones that come up with excuse after excuse why a certain player isn't the player you guys went on and on about 3 years ago. Now it's everyone else's fault that Tyreke never developed properly.

And the system played to Evan's weakness? Really? A ball dominant guard that had the ball in his hands the most the last couple years? I am willing to give him a pass last year because it was hard for him to cut with the foot problems. I agree Westphal had to go.. He's a terrible coach. I watched almost every Memphis game (I think I missed like 3 games). Evans is pretty the same looking player now that he was in college with the exception that he takes more jumpers now than he did in college.

One last thing..
Do you honestly believe that there is a "new offense" in place with Smart already? You realize they have only been able to practice ONCE with their new coach on Saturday, right?

I would be willing to wager that the numbers he has put up over the last couple games is because of the excitement for finally getting Westfail out of here. I would also be willing to bet his numbers will come back down to where they are right now (17/3/4) and probably hover around that the rest of the season. Let the excitement of a new coach pass before you start judging Evans a "star" (that last comment was for Brick)

 

[Gary]

Last time I checked, Westbrook was the most turnover prone PG in the league but OKC went to the WC Finals because of that shoot first and turnover prone PG.
There is an evolution of PGs in this league that maybe old timers tend to ignore.
The likes of Rose, Westbrook, and Reke are one of a kind that teams that land with these kids better assemble their team to these kids' strengths rather than force them to play SG because they can shoot volumes effortlessly.
Maybe some would say, we'll Dallas went to Finals with Kidd, a pass first PG. We'll I think Dallas would take Westbrook over Kidd 10 out of 10 and would still end up NBA champions.

Yah it had nothing to do with Kevin Durant or anything.. REALLY?

 

[BMiller52]

Last time I checked, Westbrook was the most turnover prone PG in the league but OKC went to the WC Finals because of that shoot first and turnover prone PG.
There is an evolution of PGs in this league that maybe old timers tend to ignore.
The likes of Rose, Westbrook, and Reke are one of a kind that teams that land with these kids better assemble their team to these kids' strengths rather than force them to play SG because they can shoot volumes effortlessly.
Maybe some would say, we'll Dallas went to Finals with Kidd, a pass first PG. We'll I think Dallas would take Westbrook over Kidd 10 out of 10 and would still end up NBA champions.

uhh what about Durant????????????????

 

[Tetsujin]

Sure I am buddy. I know you guys are all butthurt because I was right and you got nothing to come back with except Rubio takes.

And no.. I don't watch the games.. I just travel to PBP every and sit in my seat backwards and play with my iPad the whole game.

Butthurt because what? Rubio may be good but Tyreke is capable of being an outright game-changing talent when he is on as seen in the past two games. Deciding to put an arbitrary limit on his shot attempts because you want him to become John Stockton or something is patently stupid. You wouldn't impose that on Derrick Rose or Russell Westbrook would you? Hell, Rajon Rondo, the player who most likely closest resembles that "ideal" pass first PG, shoots 3 more shots per game than your suggested 8 shot limit. Rubio, by the way, barely slides under your limit at 7.5 shots per game

 

[KingsCitizen]

Yah it had nothing to do with Kevin Durant or anything.. REALLY?

Silly way to mislead my argument! Come on!
Of course Durant was their key guy.
But the premise of this thread is about Reke's role and the closest example I put up here is of Westbrook who had worst turnover number as a PG than Reke but was still very effective in OKC as one of their All-Star players.

 

[Section 101]

Most of us would like you just to progress beyond the middle school definition of PG. If he brings the ball up, calls the play, and gets the team into the offense, he's the PG. If the offense works, then he's done his job. If he's the best option to score, he's still done his job. If the team shoots 52% as it did last time, he's done his job. Given that last game was the first time all season there was an apparent offense to run, and that Tyreke responded with a 28pt 8ast night, perhaps just perhaps we could wait a bit on all this?

Your missing the biggest part of the PG. Distributing the ball and finding the mismatches. How many times the past few years has a big had a small on them only to see our guard not give them the ball? My estimate is over 95% of of the time the guard keeps the ball. It's also about getting other players involved not just themselves. This is why Smart called Jimmer our best distributor. He's out there looking to get others involved before himself.

When you mention Kobe, Wade, etc they are not distributors either. They are facilitators of the offense. The offense still runs through them, but they aren't the ones setting up the plays or trying to get others involved. They react to the defense for passes. They aren't the ones out there thinking we need to get some post ups to change things up.

 

[Rookie]

IMO "pure" PG still need a star player, but a star player not necessarily need a "pure" PG to compete at a high level.

With the situation that the Kings are in, I rather have a PG that has a potential to being a star player than a pg that will developed into a "pure" PG. We need a player that can carry this team on their back and I'm hoping Tyreke can meet that expectation of mine, along with Cousins of course. Basically to me, his role is to be the star player that we need him to be, offsensively unstoppable and defensively strong (similar to the Orlando game). PG/SG I really don't give a rat a$$...than again who really care about rats .

 

[jsb]

This offense is not setup for a true PG. Rubio on this team would have a fraction of the assts he does on the Wolves which run all of their plays thru the PG position.

 

[Hadlowe]

I think the main question for Tyreke is how does he fit with Cousins? Barring some unforeseen calamity, in two years, Cousins will be one of the best 4's/5's in the league. If Tyreke can learn to feed the post and move around it for open shots and cuts AND run an effective pick and roll, the duo will be deadly for years.

My lingering doubts about Tyreke have to do with his ability to adapt. He still drives to and finishes with the right almost exclusively. He still fades on his unchallenged jumpers (less so than before, but still). His court vision is improved, but not by leaps and bounds. Some of that is on Westphal who, for whatever reason, never figured out how to build an offense other than iso's around Tyreke and never really forced Tyreke to develop. But for Tyreke to make the next big step, he is going to have to figure out a 2-man game with Cousins. Those two pieces need to fit hand-in-glove.

Because, if it came down to it, I would rather move Tyreke and build around Cousins. Good bigs are incredibly rare. Good guards are much easier to come by.

 

[Glenn]

IMO "pure" PG still need a star player, but a star player not necessarily need a "pure" PG to compete at a high level.

I am going to put this in a jar and sell it.

I don't think Tyreke will learn to finish on the left side with his left hand. It's too late for that and he is doing fine with his right hand. As to developing a floater, I don't know how important that is. It would be nice but maybe not attainable. The same goes for a pull up jump shot. Or a three point shot. I don't have much of a clue as to what Tyreke needs improvement on but in an "n" of two games, he has been remarkable. Throw in the entire rookie season and this "n" of two games becomes a much larger "n." This has nothing to do with Tyreke learning anything new but just being Tyreke.

I don't know what he should be or what his role should be but as he is an extraordinary athlete, I am more inclined to have a team built that takes he and Cuz into account rather then asking either of them to be somehting other than what they want to be.

 

[Hadlowe]

I don't know what he should be or what his role should be but as he is an extraordinary athlete, I am more inclined to have a team built that takes he and Cuz into account rather then asking either of them to be somehting other than what they want to be.

The only problem is that their games aren't naturally complementary. A drive and dish guard thrives with bigs who can stretch the middle or run picks effectively. Cuz can hit the mid-range reasonable well for a young big man, but he's wasted out there compared with how effective he is down low. I don't think that Cuz will be happy in the long-term if his offensive stats come from put-backs on Evans and Thompson misses (a la Bynum prior to this year.) Thornton and Fredette (once he finds his stroke) are much better outside shooters. Either one of those guys is a more natural fit in a 2-man offensive game with Cousins than Tyreke.

Tyreke is the best guard on the team, but he's the second best player. Unless, and until, Reke and Cousins find a way to play to each other's strengths, there will be a bur under the saddle on this team's development.

 

[Bricklayer]

The only problem is that their games aren't naturally complementary. A drive and dish guard thrives with bigs who can stretch the middle or run picks effectively. Cuz can hit the mid-range reasonable well for a young big man, but he's wasted out there compared with how effective he is down low. I don't think that Cuz will be happy in the long-term if his offensive stats come from put-backs on Evans and Thompson misses (a la Bynum prior to this year.) Thornton and Fredette (once he finds his stroke) are much better outside shooters. Either one of those guys is a more natural fit in a 2-man offensive game with Cousins than Tyreke.

Tyreke is the best guard on the team, but he's the second best player. Unless, and until, Reke and Cousins find a way to play to each other's strengths, there will be a bur under the saddle on this team's development.

While this is true you have to remember that Shaq and a young Kobe and young Wade made it work. And Shaq was a much more limited offensive player than Cousins is rangewise. It might not be much more complex than setting them up on opposite sides of the floor, with Cousins on the left side of the floor with a shooter for spacing, and Reke on the right

 

[Hadlowe]

While this is true you have to remember that Shaq and a young Kobe and young Wade made it work. And Shaq was a much more limited offensive player than Cousins is rangewise. It might not be much more complex than setting them up on opposite sides of the floor, with Cousins on the left side of the floor with a shooter for spacing, and Reke on the right

From your lips to Smart's ears.

Though, to be fair, Shaq wasn't exactly happy with those setups either, which led to blowups on both of those teams. My fear is that Cousin's ego is no smaller than Shaq's.

 

[Kingster]

I think it's also a lot about spacing. Tyreke can drive well and make good kick outs if the spacing on the floor is good. The floater thing is something I've been saying for ages as well. I really felt that Tyreke should work on two main things in terms of individual scoring - 3 point shooting (set), and a floater. I've never understood why there was such a great emphasis on a mid range shot. I get the pullup jumper thing, but IMO Tyreke is more comfortable penetrating more and taking the shot while moving (like in a layup) as opposed to coming to a stop, where balance becomes an important factor in the jumpshot. It's not like we're gonna have him curling off screens for midrange jumpshots so I really couldn't understand why the emphasis on that as opposed to developing a floater. Also, the bigs have to be able to just catch the ball while they are on the ground, then jump up and dunk it. JT tends to put the ball down for no reason, and Hayes/Cousins seem to have trouble finishing in a crowd even when Tyreke drives in and hands the ball off to them under the rim. Hickson won't even catch the ball so no need to go there ...

Also, a post up game. We saw a little bit of that in Year 1. It made me so excited I remembered it! If the guy is going to be matched up with smalls, why not? Also, in Year 1 I saw him do a little running hook once or twice. Again, the excitement! Haven't seen it since.

 

[Kingster]

I think Tyreke's biggest lesson to learn, is recognition. The ability to realize when its there, and when its not, and to pass the ball when its not. His outside shot is improving, contrary to what some want to believe. Its a process. A slow process, particularly in games when a player always has a tendecy to go back to what got him there. We, as fans always tend to be impatient, almost to the extent of not even noticing the improvements that have been made.

In fact, if you remove his three pt shots attempted and made from his stats, he's shooting just under 50%. I've never felt that Tyreke had to become a polished 3 pt shooter to be effective. All he needs is a good midrange to become a more complete player. Even with the 3 pt shot, he's a far more consistent shooter when set, than when shooting pullups or coming off screens. So there's no reason he can't become good enough in a post set to space the floor.

If your arguement is that he's not a PG. Fine, I don't really care what you call him. Bottom line is, he's a very talented player with star potential. I think the biggest problem is that right now, there are three players on the perimiter that are most effective with the ball in their hands. Of those three, two are more guilty of killing the clock than the other. Those two are Salmons and Evans. Thornton not as much, because he makes quicker decisions with the ball. No offense to Salmons, because I think he's really trying to fit our needs, but I think we need a SF that matches up better with other SF's around the league, and is capable of hitting the open 3.

What happens to his shooting percentage if you remove the layups? I think that's key. My guess it's around 25%

 

[Gary]

I believe the Kings are the only team in the NBA that averages more turnovers than assists..

Remember way back when I said this team would do it with Evans as a PG? It took a couple years, but we have a chance!

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I believe the Kings are the only team in the NBA that averages more turnovers than assists.

Minnesota is also in that category.

I'm resisting asking the question of who their PG is.

 

[Warhawk]

Minnesota is also in that category.

I'm resisting asking the question of who their PG is.

/thread