What should be Tyreke's role?

[Rookie]

I dunno what to think anymore, maybe Smart can turn Reke into the PG we all want, but if i had to bet i would say he wont, and im usually optimistic about things. I want reke to succeed as a player as much as anyone, but i'm not connvinced it will be at that position if he does, i feel like they are grooming him farther away from what he actually is as a player, which is confusing him.. He's too much of a scorer, and its almost like hes has to force every pass he makes, it seems like passing just dosent come natural to him.. . Its like hes lost between knnowing when to score and when to pass. Which would be confusing for anybody considering our F/O is counting on him to be one of our top scorers AND distributors.

We could still utilize Reke as a passer if he played the two or three (but of course the size advantage would be taken away), i liked the Iguodala comparison. With Reke and another passing PG on the court im sure our passing would increase alot, and Reke could focus on shredding the defense and scoring instead of making everybody else happy. plus Reke would be forced to learn more of the game (off the ball movement) which would make him a complete player.

I respect your opinion on Reke, everyones entitled to their own opinion. But I'm just curious, what makes you think so strongly towards him being our future PG? I feel like i'm missing something here that alot of people are seeing?

I'm feeling the same way.

 

[rainmaker]

I dunno what to think anymore, maybe Smart can turn Reke into the PG we all want, but if i had to bet i would say he wont, and im usually optimistic about things. I want reke to succeed as a player as much as anyone, but i'm not connvinced it will be at that position if he does, i feel like they are grooming him farther away from what he actually is as a player, which is confusing him.. He's too much of a scorer, and its almost like hes has to force every pass he makes, it seems like passing just dosent come natural to him.. . Its like hes lost between knnowing when to score and when to pass. Which would be confusing for anybody considering our F/O is counting on him to be one of our top scorers AND distributors.

We could still utilize Reke as a passer if he played the two or three (but of course the size advantage would be taken away), i liked the Iguodala comparison. With Reke and another passing PG on the court im sure our passing would increase alot, and Reke could focus on shredding the defense and scoring instead of making everybody else happy. plus Reke would be forced to learn more of the game (off the ball movement) which would make him a complete player.

I respect your opinion on Reke, everyones entitled to their own opinion. But I'm just curious, what makes you think so strongly towards him being our future PG? I feel like i'm missing something here that alot of people are seeing?

I think the offense should run more through Cousins than anyone else.

As for Reke, right now we can't have him come down the court, and have the decision of what to do all on him. Same for Jimmer for that matter when he's in. He needs help. Structure! What an idea.

Have set plays where he's running the pick&roll with Cousins. Have set plays where he's waiting for Jimmer/Thornton to come off screens. Dump the ball into Cousins, and have cuts/screens/misdirection off that. Iso Reke in positions he's comfortable,actually space the floor, and let him attack.

Really,give him help,and take all the thinking out of it. Call a damn play, and let Reke run it. It will either end with him getting it in an iso spot, where he wants it, or it'll go to someone else. Difference is, everyone will know what the plays are, where to be, what the options are and where they will be, and it should make everyone, not just Reke, look like better more efficient players.

Without the plays and structure, Reke, and everyone else is free lancing. it isn't just Reke. While he's standing there dribbling the ball in place, everyone else is standing in place looking confused as well. So it's not as if everyone else is running a play,and Reke simply isn't. It's more of everyone looking at each other wondering, what the hell do we do?

 

[Sac.1989]

Reke needs to do what he does. Get to the rim and look out for open team mates. Should have had 10+ assists tonight if the role players could shoot.

That being said though building around Demarcus in the low post on offense is pivitol.

In the long term we will go as far as Boogie carrys us

 

[Kingster]

We'll try him at PG under another coach and see. I have noted before there are relatively few PGs" as classically devised running NBA teams. Many/most have gunning on their minds as much as creating, and of the rest half are roleplayers. This Westphal thing this year was a mess, and its the only coach Reke has had in the pros. What he will do for a coach who might actually call plays and focus the offense we will see.

Two other notes: 1) Reke's jumper has much better form this year. Its jsut been auch an unorganized disaster out there that there have been few chances to use it; 2) the anser all along that Westphal did not seem to go with was to run a lot of the offense through Cousins. Perhaps Smart will be smart (aha!) about that. If so many of the guard problems solve themselves.

And if you run the offense through Cousins then what's Tyreke's role? Are you going to put Cousins inside? If so, what does Tyreke do: sit at the 3 point line?

 

[Kingster]

Everyone who says Reke can't be a point, are judging him by how he looked in a completely unorganized, make it up as you go Westy offense.

We don't know how he'd do running the point in a structured offense, playing inside out, which calls more set plays where Reke knows both where he should be, but also his teammates.

Yes he's looked poor at times with Westy. So has our entire roster, as well as guys like Hawes who look better since moving on. No one thought Hawes could be a starting center until Collins had a year with him. Now look at him. It's early, but I'm impressed. Our offense should be centered around Cousins anyway, and why would we need a more pure pg to simply come down the floor and dump it into him. I'll wait to see how Reke performs with a coach with a structured offense, where Cousins is a dominant feature, and not just an after thought.

Reke has made some pretty dumb decisions on the court. But I also have never seen Westy attempt to correct them. Could a coach like Sloan or Pop turn Reke into a more effective, walking mismatch of a pg? Probably. So I don't buy the argument Reke can't play point at this point. Not with Westy still having been his only NBA head coach.

So the question is: Was the offense unorganized because Tyreke is incapable of running any structured offense, or was the offense unorganized because Westphal and his staff didn't know how to design it? To me, there's a hint of answer in what Smart has said. He's going to focus on defense, rebounding and running. He's implied he doesn't have much confidence in this teams' ability to run any system because they are incable of doing so at this time. If Tyreke is incapable mentally of running a system on a long term basis, that's just another reason to put him at the three. Regardless, Tyreke can't continue to be a one-trick pony; he's got considerable polishing of his game to do. Even at the 3, he still doesn't have the outside shooting you would normally want.

 

[sidney]

And if you run the offense through Cousins then what's Tyreke's role? Are you going to put Cousins inside? If so, what does Tyreke do: sit at the 3 point line?

There is more than one play in a basketball game to run all sorts of things.

So we have seen Tyreke, Cousins, and Thornton able to set guys up last year. It's no coincidence that Petrie's two top FA targets were Hayes (a 3 assist/game big) and Kirilenko (a 3 assist/game SF). He's building a team where everyone can pass and set people up. The problem is that to take advantage of a team that has it's passing talent spread out so much there is going to have to be a more structured offense....something Westphal failed at.

Any Kings fan who just loves the Steve Nash / Jason Kidd / Ricky Rubio style of play where one guy just sets everyone up every play is just going to be beating their head against the wall for the next 10 years. This multiple passer thing is less conventional but it could work with the right coach / system.

 

[kingofthejungle]

Evans' role

Evans' role partly depends on the position you play him as well as the starting line up.

Although it's still a little early for Jimmer, EVENTUALLY (maybe mid season if Jimmer figures it out) I would look to start the following.

Fredette
Thornton
Evans
Hickson
Cousins

With this lineup, Fredette and Thornton provide lots of spacing for Evans to create in half court sets (obviously, that's the role I see for him on offense). I would have Fredette be your outlet and bring the ball up but give it to Evans in a position where he can create. Most small forwards would have little to no shot staying in front of Tyreke.

I would also love Evans and Cousins pick and rolls/give and goes with Fredette and Thornton playing spot up shooters and Hickson crashing the boards. Additionally, I would run plays for Fredette and Thornton off screens. Last, this lineup would give Cousins room to operate on the block and draw doubles for shooters, which we would have.

In regards to Evans, I would also encourage him to break down defenses but keep his head up, keep his dribble alive, and look for open perimeter players when defenses collapse on him. If set plays are going to be run regularly now, perhaps Evans will have an idea of where his teammates are.

--

The real problem with that lineup IMO is on the defensive end. Fredette, Thornton, and Evans could all be considered liabilities at their respective positions. Then again, a lot of teams make up for subpar individual defenders with good team defense. In regards to Evans, I would ask him to pressure his man and use his speed, length, and defensive awareness to create turnovers. I would have him rebound the ball but, when he does, not feel like he has to outlet but rather charge the ball upcourt.

--

BTW, regarding the starting lineup, I chose Hickson over Hayes because of his length, shot blocking, athleticism, and rebounding. I just think that Hickson is better equiped to guard starting power forwards, especially if the Kings were to go with a small backcourt. I actually think the Kings' rebounding would be fine with Cousins, Hickson, Evans, and even Thornton.

--

I would sub Salmons in for Evans until a real small forward is acquired and ask Salmons to do pretty much the same on the defensive end, but have a far less prominent role on offense.

--

Consider these reserves.

Thomas
Salmons
Hayes
Thompson

--

That's not bad IMO. I would definetly try to consolodate Garcia, Outlaw, and Greene for a quality small forward and also consider an upgrade at backup point for now.

--

Anyway, my post kind of drifted off into a spectrum of thoughts I've had about the Kings lately. But hopefullly my vision for Tyreke is sprinkled throughout.

 

[upinsmoke]

And if you run the offense through Cousins then what's Tyreke's role? Are you going to put Cousins inside? If so, what does Tyreke do: sit at the 3 point line?

CUT hard then get ready to finish hard or dish it out. You remember.

 

[lwc]

I will get a lot of heat for this but Either Marcus or Tyreke need to be a Quality 6th man. When I say that, I mean get 35+ minutes per game. Both are scorers, not passers, and not shooters. However, Jimmer isn't ready yet to be a starting PG or SG in this league, but, the problems he has can only be solved with minutes on the floor. I would use him like a Rip Hamilton. Coming off of screens or being set when Tyreke drives.

The standard offense I want is a lot of spacing on the floor, and DMC setting high screens for Tyreke to drive. If the lane is open, loft the floater, pull the shot or lay it up. If it is not, feed it to DMC as he comes down the lane, OR kick it out to Jimmer for the 3.

When Thornton is on the floor, he can do the same, or do some dribble-drive with Jimmer, Marcus and Tyreke.

However, DMC is too talented not to have plays ran for him. He is a talented enough player that you can dish him the ball off the wing and watch him work. One thing he did well at UK that I have not seen a lot of in Sacramento is his great kick-out passing. Many times in college, once he got double-teamed he would hit Patterson across from him, OR kick it out to Bledsoe/Miller. Jimmer could flourish that way.

 

[Spike]

So the question is: Was the offense unorganized because Tyreke is incapable of running any structured offense, or was the offense unorganized because Westphal and his staff didn't know how to design it? To me, there's a hint of answer in what Smart has said. He's going to focus on defense, rebounding and running. He's implied he doesn't have much confidence in this teams' ability to run any system because they are incable of doing so at this time. If Tyreke is incapable mentally of running a system on a long term basis, that's just another reason to put him at the three.

Implying that he lacks confidence in a teams ability to run an offense at this time is different than implying Evans is mentally incapable of running a system. Choose your words carefully there. If last night is an indicator of what we'll see throughout the season, then we're in pretty good shape. Tyreke was a whole bunch of easy missed shots away from a triple double. The ball needs to be in his hands as a facilitator.

 

[ElRey]

I want to see how Tyreke plays at PG under Smart before completely giving up on him as a PG. The potential of a 6'5" abusing PG dominating the rest of the league's point guards is too great to give up on, esp since he is so young and hasn't had much direction from Westpaul. Tyreke could be hall of fame material if he could learn the PG position. In terms of being a PG, Tyreke is one of the best ball handlers in the game (if not the best). It's the passing and the running of the pick and roll that he needs work on.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Any Kings fan who just loves the Steve Nash / Jason Kidd / Ricky Rubio style of play where one guy just sets everyone up every play is just going to be beating their head against the wall for the next 10 years. This multiple passer thing is less conventional but it could work with the right coach / system.

The multiple passer thing has worked quite well before, and it's no less fun to watch:
2001-2002
Mike Bibby 5.0 ast/g
Chris Webber 4.8 ast/g
Doug Christie 4.2 ast/g
Vlade Divac 3.7 ast/g
Peja Stojakovic 2.5 ast/g
Bobby Jackson 2.0 ast/g
Hedo Turkoglu 2.0 ast/g

 

[Kingster]

There is more than one play in a basketball game to run all sorts of things.

So we have seen Tyreke, Cousins, and Thornton able to set guys up last year. It's no coincidence that Petrie's two top FA targets were Hayes (a 3 assist/game big) and Kirilenko (a 3 assist/game SF). He's building a team where everyone can pass and set people up. The problem is that to take advantage of a team that has it's passing talent spread out so much there is going to have to be a more structured offense....something Westphal failed at.

Any Kings fan who just loves the Steve Nash / Jason Kidd / Ricky Rubio style of play where one guy just sets everyone up every play is just going to be beating their head against the wall for the next 10 years. This multiple passer thing is less conventional but it could work with the right coach / system.

I'm down with the multiple passing offense that you talk about, as long as you have multiple passers. That remains to be seen. This team has been teribble in assist to turnovers for a long while. We'll see how they are in 10 games or so. I think Smart just wants to teach them how to run a fast break first. They are terrible at it now. Just have them run as much as possible, teach them how to run a fast break, and Smart will nibble away at the assist/to problem because the offense will come more from fast breaks than half-court sets.

 

[Kingster]

I will get a lot of heat for this but Either Marcus or Tyreke need to be a Quality 6th man. When I say that, I mean get 35+ minutes per game. Both are scorers, not passers, and not shooters. However, Jimmer isn't ready yet to be a starting PG or SG in this league, but, the problems he has can only be solved with minutes on the floor. I would use him like a Rip Hamilton. Coming off of screens or being set when Tyreke drives.

The standard offense I want is a lot of spacing on the floor, and DMC setting high screens for Tyreke to drive. If the lane is open, loft the floater, pull the shot or lay it up. If it is not, feed it to DMC as he comes down the lane, OR kick it out to Jimmer for the 3.

When Thornton is on the floor, he can do the same, or do some dribble-drive with Jimmer, Marcus and Tyreke.

However, DMC is too talented not to have plays ran for him. He is a talented enough player that you can dish him the ball off the wing and watch him work. One thing he did well at UK that I have not seen a lot of in Sacramento is his great kick-out passing. Many times in college, once he got double-teamed he would hit Patterson across from him, OR kick it out to Bledsoe/Miller. Jimmer could flourish that way.

I'd love to see that. And it would fit with Smart's emphasis on fast break basketball. Great point.

 

[OptimusRhyme]

I want to see how Tyreke plays at PG under Smart before completely giving up on him as a PG. The potential of a 6'5" abusing PG dominating the rest of the league's point guards is too great to give up on, esp since he is so young and hasn't had much direction from Westpaul. Tyreke could be hall of fame material if he could learn the PG position. In terms of being a PG, Tyreke is one of the best ball handlers in the game (if not the best). It's the passing and the running of the pick and roll that he needs work on.

I think to effectively run the pick and roll, he'll need to be able to shoot off the dribble, maybe he could take some notes from jimmer? i meen his set shot looks improved, but if we want him to be the pick and roll threat he needs to stretch the defence with that shot, i think thats key.

 

[Kingster]

Implying that he lacks confidence in a teams ability to run an offense at this time is different than implying Evans is mentally incapable of running a system. Choose your words carefully there. If last night is an indicator of what we'll see throughout the season, then we're in pretty good shape. Tyreke was a whole bunch of easy missed shots away from a triple double. The ball needs to be in his hands as a facilitator.

Let me be specific so you don't have to rely on implications. Tyreke may not be mentally incapable of running any half court offensive system. Let me narrow it down for you even more. When I say, "run" I mean actually be the "lead ballhandler" a half-court system with ballhandling repsonsibilities involving passing, dribbling and decision making. I do feel pretty confident that Tyreke should be able to eventually run a fast break well, but he's not there yet either. I would have felt so much more confident about Tyreke's ability to run a half court system if I could see progress in other areas of his game, but unfortunately I haven't seen that. Is it still possible? Yes. I just don't think it's probable.

 

[Glenn]

Reke needs to do what he does. Get to the rim and look out for open team mates. Should have had 10+ assists tonight if the role players could shoot.

That being said though building around Demarcus in the low post on offense is pivitol.

In the long term we will go as far as Boogie carrys us

Was this a purposeful pun? If so, you get a hearty Bravo! from me.

So far Boogie has shown that he can abuse most centers. More so this year than last and he is in much better shape. No team can be carried by one person but he certainly needs to consistently be that scary post player and get his 10-12 ft jumper back. Sometimes I watch him and simply marvel at how such a powerful man can have such dexterity. I suspect others have noticed this.

 

[ElRey]

I think to effectively run the pick and roll, he'll need to be able to shoot off the dribble, maybe he could take some notes from jimmer? i meen his set shot looks improved, but if we want him to be the pick and roll threat he needs to stretch the defence with that shot, i think thats key.

Agreed. Shooting off the dribble, that's what you need to work on, Tyreke.

 

[JB_kings]

It might be interesting to look at the Warriors situation with Monta and Steph Curry. While Monta and Reke are not very similar in game, they are ball dominant guards looking to score. When Curry came along, remember he had somewhat the same rep as Jimmer and their game has some similarities. Since Smart has been through this show before, maybe he already has a plan? He's seen what works and what doesn't work. It will be interesting to see as this season goes along if Jimmer and Reke are on the floor, who is directing the offense.

Jimmer is struggling right now no doubt. But most of that was because Westphal was throwing him out there unscripted. Westphal was sort of like a bad cook who kept throwing ingredients in a bowl and seeing what tasted good. Thus the constant changing lineups and combinations. I think Smart has seen what he has and is going to lock in much faster on what he expects from his players. This is the benefit of a coach who holds you accountable and lays out what he wants you to do on the court. I think Jimmer is very coachable and will respond to what Smart wants from him. If Smart sees a lot of Curry in Jimmer, we'll know it soon enough.

 

[sidney]

The multiple passer thing has worked quite well before, and it's no less fun to watch:
2001-2002
Mike Bibby 5.0 ast/g
Chris Webber 4.8 ast/g
Doug Christie 4.2 ast/g
Vlade Divac 3.7 ast/g
Peja Stojakovic 2.5 ast/g
Bobby Jackson 2.0 ast/g
Hedo Turkoglu 2.0 ast/g

Hey, look at that. At least Petrie is consistent with what he's trying to put together

 

[ElRey]

It might be interesting to look at the Warriors situation with Monta and Steph Curry. While Monta and Reke are not very similar in game, they are ball dominant guards looking to score. When Curry came along, remember he had somewhat the same rep as Jimmer and their game has some similarities. Since Smart has been through this show before, maybe he already has a plan? He's seen what works and what doesn't work. It will be interesting to see as this season goes along if Jimmer and Reke are on the floor, who is directing the offense.

Jimmer is struggling right now no doubt. But most of that was because Westphal was throwing him out there unscripted. Westphal was sort of like a bad cook who kept throwing ingredients in a bowl and seeing what tasted good. Thus the constant changing lineups and combinations. I think Smart has seen what he has and is going to lock in much faster on what he expects from his players. This is the benefit of a coach who holds you accountable and lays out what he wants you to do on the court. I think Jimmer is very coachable and will respond to what Smart wants from him. If Smart sees a lot of Curry in Jimmer, we'll know it soon enough.

Running some plays for Jimmer to get open, like screens would be nice. I felt like Westpaul was asking Jimmer to play PG and run the offense out there, and that is just not Jimmer's strength right now. I want Jimmer to SHOOT, not run the offense.

 

[sidney]

I'm down with the multiple passing offense that you talk about, as long as you have multiple passers. That remains to be seen. This team has been teribble in assist to turnovers for a long while. We'll see how they are in 10 games or so. I think Smart just wants to teach them how to run a fast break first. They are terrible at it now. Just have them run as much as possible, teach them how to run a fast break, and Smart will nibble away at the assist/to problem because the offense will come more from fast breaks than half-court sets.

Yeah, it remains to be seen if they can pull it off but all these guys have shown that they can put up better numbers in the past, so IMO it now comes down to the chemistry, coaching, and system to make it happen.

Agree on the fast break issue. We're just so awkward. Even last night when it worked with Evans, Thornton, and Hickson there was no comfort or finesse. Very awkward. Hopefully Smart makes some strides there.

 

[Glenn]

I very honestly do not know what Tyreke's role should be and I doubt there is an instructonal manual on what to do with a guy with his skills. Whatever was done last night seemed to work. It worked for Tyreke and it worked for the team as everyone seemed involved. So what was done last night? Can anyone explain it? It seemed more like Tyreke's rookie year than what we have seen so far this year. I do not mean exactly like his rookie year as that was a far different team but he had seemed to have his hands on the ball more than the norm of this year.

Anyway, I'd like to see more of what happened last night and I'll let the gurus describe what it was. I REALLY don't think changing him into something he isn't will get us anywhere.

 

[Kingster]

I very honestly do not know what Tyreke's role should be and I doubt there is an instructonal manual on what to do with a guy with his skills. Whatever was done last night seemed to work. It worked for Tyreke and it worked for the team as everyone seemed involved. So what was done last night? Can anyone explain it? It seemed more like Tyreke's rookie year than what we have seen so far this year. I do not mean exactly like his rookie year as that was a far different team but he had seemed to have his hands on the ball more than the norm of this year.

Anyway, I'd like to see more of what happened last night and I'll let the gurus describe what it was. I REALLY don't think changing him into something he isn't will get us anywhere.

You can't look to last night's game for anything. Throw it away. Forget about it. It doesn't matter. You have to look at a great number of games to see the theme for Tyreke. And in particular, look at how he functions against several teams over .500, teams that know how to defend. They are going to take away his one trick - driving all the way to the basket. When they do, he's done. No more tricks to pull out of the hat. The guy desperately needs to add a floater to his arsenal. Just give me a 10-12 foot floater and you open up the heavens with Tyreke. Then he's not forced into making spectacular dipsee-do-alley-oop plays at the basket; he could then make simple efficient plays that could help this team win. He could also decrease his risk of injury.

 

[ElRey]

You can't look to last night's game for anything. Throw it away. Forget about it. It doesn't matter. You have to look at a great number of games to see the theme for Tyreke. And in particular, look at how he functions against several teams over .500, teams that know how to defend. They are going to take away his one trick - driving all the way to the basket. When they do, he's done. No more tricks to pull out of the hat. The guy desperately needs to add a floater to his arsenal. Just give me a 10-12 foot floater and you open up the heavens with Tyreke. Then he's not forced into making spectacular dipsee-do-alley-oop plays at the basket; he could then make simple efficient plays that could help this team win. He could also decrease his risk of injury.

Wish we had a coach to help Tyreke expand his game...

 

[Tetsujin]

Jesus Christ, the way some of you guys put it, Tyreke can't tell his *** from a hole in the ground.

 

[pshn80]

Playing Tyreke at the 4 position for significant minutes last night wasn't bad. Line up for our small ball was - 1 Fredette, 2 Thornton, 3 Salmons, 4 Evans. They didn't have those labels on the floor but by size that is the position he was playing. I think Smart will figure it out. The problem isn't how to play Tyreke, it's who to play floor general (mostly not shoot, mostly get ball to right guy and right place).

 

[IfAt1st]

Last night was simple - Tyreke stopped protesting Paul Westphal being the coach.
I feel it's pretty clear that most (if not all) of the players wanted Westphal gone, and deliberately played down to force management's hand.
A guy doesn't go from a 58% FT shooter to a 100% FT shooter overnight unless it's purposeful.

I'm not sure what Tyreke's role should be, but I know what it shouldn't be - he can NOT be the guy to get the outlet pass on a break - he has shown spectacular confusion when he gets it around midcourt, and leads to way more TO's than layups.

 

[Kingster]

Jesus Christ, the way some of you guys put it, Tyreke can't tell his *** from a hole in the ground.

That's a little harsh, don't you think?

 

[Spike]

Jesus Christ, the way some of you guys put it, Tyreke can't tell his *** from a hole in the ground.

Come on now, he's just mentally incapable of any basketball related skill.