What!?!? Rick Adelman might join the Denver Nuggets next season?
- Thread starter Bballkingsrock
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Note: Jordan was a 5x All-Star, 3 time first Team All-NBA, 3x scoring champ, former MVP, reigning Defensive Player of the Year AND was coming off a season in which he averaged 32.5pts 8rebs 8ast and 3stls on 54% shooting. He was already the best player anyone had seen since Wilt. All he needed was a ring to let the dimwitted media catch on.profit said:
Shaq is harder to trace -- his numbers pre and post Phil are not that different. He lost weight (before Phil ever coached a game BTW) and was more focused perhpas, but he had been averaging 27pts 11rebs 2blks on 57% from the moment he stepped into the league. If he was NOT the most dominant player in basketball pre-99 it was largely due to Michael, Mailman, The Admiral and Hakeem in their primes. When all of them got old, he was left standing alone.
Bballkingsrock
All-Star
You ARE kidding right? MJ was the best basketball player in the world! Oh just me and a couple hundred million think so.profit said:
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Anyone want to take any bets on which team will win more games if that happens? Funny how these silly GMs, widely credited with being geniuses in any other setting, suddenly get stupid when it comes to Rick.Ryle said:Well, if Adelman is coaching the Nuggets next year then that means he won't be coaching the Kings which makes me happy.
Yeah, there will be nothing quite as joyful to watch as another team in our conference just magically happening to start playing together, the offense flowing freely, the win total shooting up, just coincidentally as Rick arrives in town. But of course it won't be him. It will be the team. It was their time. They could have done it with Jasper the parapelegic monkey at the helm.
A
AriesMar27
Guest
that'd be so funny.... i'd wear my kings jersey at least twice a week... and i live in los angeles, so you know how that is going to be...Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Diabeticwonder
Bench
Well, if RA is coaching in Denver next season then that's one more team the Kings won't have to worry about. He will inherit a young team with lots of talent who can play a great uptempo game, and.......he will fail to get them over the top just as he has here and in Portland.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Quick dose of reality -- other than Phil Jackson and possibly Popovich (who hasn't been around for as long), there has been no coach who's teams you have had to worry about MORE than Rick Adelman in the past 15 years. Year in, year out, his teams are there and must be contended with.Diabeticwonder said:
The lack of respect for the accomplishments during the single greatest stretch in the history of this franchise is really quite pathetic. There are about 28 teams that would KILL to have had the run we've had over the last 6 years, and all our fans can do is wimp and whine.
I do wonder, when the Nuggets regain their glory under Adelman and start winning 55-60 games every year, how many years will it take for the win-starved Nuggets fans to lose perspective, forget their own past, and start bitching and moaning because gee, they are owed an NBA championship every year? Maybe 5 seasons? 6?
A
AriesMar27
Guest
1 year after lebron wins mvp and melo doesnt.... or the second major post season ending injury.... which ever comes first....Bricklayer said:
Diabeticwonder
Bench
Some of you RA defenders are hilarious. Just because some of us voice our opinion on him and specifically our opinion as to him not getting us over the hump you think that we have all lost our memory of what this franchise was before he was here and that we aren't happy or satisfied with his accomplishments. I for one have never said that he has not done a good job for this franchise, but the fact is that RA has not gotten this team over the hump. Does that last statement mean that I don't remember the times when the Kings were lucky to win 30 games a year or that the highlight of the season may have been Jim Less getting 2nd place in the 3 point contest or Terry Tyler competing in the slam dunk contest? Not at all. Yes, the Kings have and are continuing to have a great run and it has all been under RA's direction, but if you are only content with that then there's something wrong. Sure, the Kings have had their share of bad luck with injuries and all, but seeing this team on a nightly basis over the past 7 years has convinced me that RA is not going to get this team over the top. Of course I hope I am wrong and that the Kings win it all this year, but the same problems, namely rebounding, defense, and effort have plagued this team for a long time now and IMHO I believe that these faults and shortcomings fall squarely on RA's shoulders. I have posted this before, and I'll post it yet again, I think that the players have tuned RA out and while I know that he harps on defense and rebounding, the fact that it hasn't improved that much over the years tells me that his words are falling on deaf ears. Additonally, I have all the respect for what Adelman has done for this team and where this team is in comparison to where it was before he got here. However, as a fan who lives and dies with this team I am not content with merely being one of the best teams in the NBA. The goal here people is to win a title and anything short really isn't good enough and many would consider it a failure. If you don't belive me then just ask anyone who has ever played in the league. The bottom line is that RA has done a fabulous job for this team and he has helped them attain heights that they had never dreamed of before, but now that they have attained them the next goal is a title and IMO I don't think that RA can get them to that level.
Spare me...
And what exactly would that be, oh wise one?Diabeticwonder said:
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
1) Please name the Kings stalwart that was a BETTER defender and/or rebounder before he arrived in Sacramento.
2) Please name the Kings stalwart who has NOT had the best years of his career in Sacramento, who has come here and been a disappointment.
3) Please name the NBA head coach who has won an NBA championship with his main players injured or otherwise unavailable.
Get back to me.
Only 4 coaches have won the NBA title in the last 14 years. 3 of the 4 have had MVPs/first ballot HOFs leading their squads. The 4th is Larry Brown who kind of backed into a title (took a team already built by his predecessor, was going nowhere really, benefitted from a huge midseason acquisition, ran into a depleted Indiana squad and finished off an imploding Laker squad). All 4 had all of their top players for every successful title run. When they did not, they did not win. They "failed".
2) Please name the Kings stalwart who has NOT had the best years of his career in Sacramento, who has come here and been a disappointment.
3) Please name the NBA head coach who has won an NBA championship with his main players injured or otherwise unavailable.
Get back to me.
Only 4 coaches have won the NBA title in the last 14 years. 3 of the 4 have had MVPs/first ballot HOFs leading their squads. The 4th is Larry Brown who kind of backed into a title (took a team already built by his predecessor, was going nowhere really, benefitted from a huge midseason acquisition, ran into a depleted Indiana squad and finished off an imploding Laker squad). All 4 had all of their top players for every successful title run. When they did not, they did not win. They "failed".
Bballkingsrock
All-Star
Do you guys think that if Rick Adelman doesn't lead the Kings to the NBA finals that the Kings will fire him?
iheartBrad
All-Star
im not worrying about that now
besides i have a sneaking suspicion...that Coop will pull a Lawrence Frank type act...i mean maybe not with a 14 game win streak...but a complete turn around...im pullin for him
besides i have a sneaking suspicion...that Coop will pull a Lawrence Frank type act...i mean maybe not with a 14 game win streak...but a complete turn around...im pullin for him
Padrino
All-Star
so what do we do? fire him? like that has proved to be the answer to the problem everywhere else in the league. /sarcasmDiabeticwonder said:
people with this "RA hasnt got us over the hump" argument are missing the bigger picture. i have said it the past few years, and ive said it a few times on this very forum: the only thing that has kept the kings from "getting over the hump" is themselves. they havent had the mental fortitude the past few years to go all the way. they have done well in the regular season, but choked when the pressure hammer falls on them. i know it sucks to think that the problem actually lies within the players themselves, rather than somewhere else, but its just plain fact. a coach should get a lot of credit for their successes, and on the other end of the spectrum, should be criticized for their faults. but NEVER should a coach receive all the blame for the players' shortcomings.
if the kings want it enough, then they will win it. simple as that. if they want it enough, they will hustle after that loose ball, leap for that extra board, throw that extra pass, make their free throws down the stretch, and even hit those clutch shots. if they break down mentally as they have in the past, however, they will not hit those shots. they will not hustle after loose balls. they will continue to doubt themselves, and they will fall short again. RA has little to do with this, imo the most important part, of the equation.
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Personally, I prefer to call myself a Kings FAN and not simply an "RA defender," which you apparently think is something negative.Diabeticwonder said:
Rick Adelman isn't perfect. NO coach is perfect. He makes mistakes; he does things others might or might not do... Well, welcome to reality. That's life.
I like how conveniently your post neglects to mention the myriad injuries that have plagued the Kings. If you're going to assail RA for not getting us over the hump, it would at least be nice to recognize that things happened BEYOND his control.
This whole thread has been amusing, to say the least. Some throwaway line buried in an article and all of a sudden RA is on his way out the door and headed to Denver?
Yeah...
I guess I'm just behind the times. I'm thinking it might just be more fun to actually wait and see how the team does before we try and predict RA's fate, especially when some people are so quick to pronounce him lacking.
That's just my three cents on the issue... I have stuff to shovel.
Diabeticwonder
Bench
"i have said it the past few years, and ive said it a few times on this very forum: the only thing that has kept the kings from "getting over the hump" is themselves. they havent had the mental fortitude the past few years to go all the way. they have done well in the regular season, but choked when the pressure hammer falls on them."
The lack of mental fortitude is part player and part coach and IMO it's time to try something new. The same old argument about only 4 coaches winning titles in the 10+ years gets old. If that's a rock solid argument then why is any coach ever fired who hasn't won a title. I have never said that RA sucks or that we would have won a handfull of titles without him...I simply stated that I do not think that he can get this team over the hump and in response to that everyone is up in arms coming to his defense. If I am wrong then please give me some evidence as to him being able to get this team over the hump because I do not believe that there is any. Do you really believe that the Kings will win it all this year? Personally I do not. Does that make me less of a Kings fan than anyone? Not at all and I truly hope that I am wrong because there is nothing more in life that I would like to see than a Kings championship, but I just don't think that RA is the guy to coach them to a title. That's the bottom line of my previous post. Additionally, if RA is the man to get this team to the next level then why is he a lame duck coach for which ownership has not extended his contract?
The lack of mental fortitude is part player and part coach and IMO it's time to try something new. The same old argument about only 4 coaches winning titles in the 10+ years gets old. If that's a rock solid argument then why is any coach ever fired who hasn't won a title. I have never said that RA sucks or that we would have won a handfull of titles without him...I simply stated that I do not think that he can get this team over the hump and in response to that everyone is up in arms coming to his defense. If I am wrong then please give me some evidence as to him being able to get this team over the hump because I do not believe that there is any. Do you really believe that the Kings will win it all this year? Personally I do not. Does that make me less of a Kings fan than anyone? Not at all and I truly hope that I am wrong because there is nothing more in life that I would like to see than a Kings championship, but I just don't think that RA is the guy to coach them to a title. That's the bottom line of my previous post. Additionally, if RA is the man to get this team to the next level then why is he a lame duck coach for which ownership has not extended his contract?
Just as you think the "same old argument about only 4 coaches" gets old, your comment that you do not think he can get this team over the hump gets old.
We get it. You PERSONALLY do not think RA will get it done. You have, therefore, given up on the season. Fine.
You demand we give you evidence of you being wrong? That's not possible because the season isn't over...
I can't see any need to continue. You aren't going to be convinced and I'm not going to quit having faith that this just might be the year.
So, there you go... We agree to disagree and I find something else to read and discuss. Have a nice day.
We get it. You PERSONALLY do not think RA will get it done. You have, therefore, given up on the season. Fine.
You demand we give you evidence of you being wrong? That's not possible because the season isn't over...
I can't see any need to continue. You aren't going to be convinced and I'm not going to quit having faith that this just might be the year.
So, there you go... We agree to disagree and I find something else to read and discuss. Have a nice day.
:: still waiting for Diabeticwonder to explain what, exactly, is "wrong" about being content with the Kings having a great run under Adelman ::
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Oh no, the coach is here already. Wins a ton of games every year. The burden of proof is on YOU, not me.Diabeticwonder said:
Prove to me that some other coach has a better shot at bringing in that title in our circumstances. Prove to me that ANY other NBA coach has EVER won the championship under the circumstances we have asked Rick to win it under. Without a best-in-the-league superstar, with major guys injured every single year (and critically of course every playoffs). I've got a coach who will, despite all kinds of adversity every year, have his team in contention and at the top of the league. I've got a coach who puts us within one lucky break for US from winning a title in any given year. If Kobe sprains his ankle instead of Peja in 2002, we win the title. If Webber stays healthy and Duncan blows out his knee in 2003, we win the title.
You can't prove to me that ay other coach has won under the circumstances Rick has faced because NONE HAVE. But Rick has come oh so close. Basically as close as you can come. In 2002 we basically lost in a Game 7 OT in the NBA Finals. I doubt anybody has ever come so close with their #2 player out of the lineup.
Gregg Popovich loses when his players are hurt -- he lost Duncan in 2000, and the Spurs lost. He lost Derek Anderson, no better than his third best player, in 2001, and his team got creamed. When Phil Jackson lost Michael to baseball, he lost. When Michael returned late the next year and wasn't quite himself, Phil lost again. When Phil lost Malone to injury last season, guess what? Another loss. When Riley lost Magic in the Finals agains Detroit, he lost too. There is NO coach on Earth who has shown he can win an NBA title with his major players out with injury. In fact I don't think there's even a coach on Earth who's made as good a run at it as Adelman.
The burden is on you. Show me who's done this. Show me who's proven he can pull it off given what Adelman's had to work with. Because until you do, I'll stick with the guy I know has gotten us within one "there but for the grace of God" moment from a title. I'll stick with one of the winningest coaches in NBA history and see what happens when the OTHER guy has some bad luck.
I agree Jordan was already amazing, however I think PJ took him to another level. Consider the qoute below from http://chicago.about.com/cs/sport1/a/jackson_jordan.htmBricklayer said:
By the time Jackson moved up to the NBA from the CBA, Jordan had been a Bulls player for five years. That's five years without a title. How important was Jackson to Michael's development as a player? So important that every time Jackson had a salary dispute with Bulls general manager Jerry Krause, Jordan let it be known that he would not return as a player if he didn't have Jackson as a coach. Empty threats by Jordan to get management to do what he wanted, you say? Apparently not. After all, when Jackson "retired" from basketball in 1998, Jordan went through an incredibly long period of indecision but in the end he, too, said good-bye. There is very little doubt that if Jackson had returned as Bulls head coach during the 1998-99 season, Michael would have returned as a player.
What about Shaquille O'Neal? Before Jackson became his coach, Shaq had been an NBA player for eight long years, first with the Orlando Magic, then with the Lakers. That's eight years without a ring. Think about it: Before Phil Jackson came into their lives, Michael and Shaquille (despite a variety of coaches, incentives, and at least one owner willing to do almost anything at all in order to have a winning franchise), spent a combined total of thirteen years without a title. The fact is, neither one could do it. Not without Phil.
Diabeticwonder
Bench
Brick, I can't give you any example of a coach who has won a title under the circumstances Adelman has been under because one does not exist just as you can't give any evidence that RA will get this team over the hump. We agree to disagree.
Mr. Slim Citrus-Nothing is wrong as to the Kings having a great run under Adelman, but as a fan it is disappointing to get as far as they have and not be able to win it all. When Webb's three rimmed out in Game 7 last year against Minny I had the same feeling about the season as I had when they lost Game 7 to LA in '02 and Game 7 to Dallas in '03...all three seaons ended without a title and to me all three seasons ended in disappointment. It's not as though I looked back on the regular season and found contentment knowing that the Kings had won a ton of games and proven themselves to be a great regular season team. Instead, I kept thinking back to those game 7 losses. That's why as fans we should not be content with the run we have had under Adelman because each season has ended in disappointment.
As to everyone else who is up in arms about my few posts as to RA: Relax...it's one man's opinion that he can't get this team over the hump and you can rest assured that if the Kings win it all this year, then I will be the first to admit my error in judgment as to RA and also rest assured that if they do win it and I'm standing next to you at the game or at the victory parade I will be the first person to give you a high five and rejoice in the victory. No worries!!!
Mr. Slim Citrus-Nothing is wrong as to the Kings having a great run under Adelman, but as a fan it is disappointing to get as far as they have and not be able to win it all. When Webb's three rimmed out in Game 7 last year against Minny I had the same feeling about the season as I had when they lost Game 7 to LA in '02 and Game 7 to Dallas in '03...all three seaons ended without a title and to me all three seasons ended in disappointment. It's not as though I looked back on the regular season and found contentment knowing that the Kings had won a ton of games and proven themselves to be a great regular season team. Instead, I kept thinking back to those game 7 losses. That's why as fans we should not be content with the run we have had under Adelman because each season has ended in disappointment.
As to everyone else who is up in arms about my few posts as to RA: Relax...it's one man's opinion that he can't get this team over the hump and you can rest assured that if the Kings win it all this year, then I will be the first to admit my error in judgment as to RA and also rest assured that if they do win it and I'm standing next to you at the game or at the victory parade I will be the first person to give you a high five and rejoice in the victory. No worries!!!
It's not your dissatisfaction with Adelman, so much as your lack of viable alternatives... And, if you didn't mean that there's something wrong with being content with the team's play under Adelman, then what did you say it for?
I know I said I was finished, but I can't help myself.Diabeticwonder said:
Let's talk about those game 7 situations. What coach was it who got us to those situations?
Now, let's look at the particulars.
2002 - In game 7 in LA it was by no means RA's fault that the team FORGOT how to shoot free throws. The team, led by Rick Adelman, took the LA LAKERS to overtime in game 7 of the WCF. Had they made even ONE more free throw during the course of the game it wouldn't even have gotten to overtime. And it was not the coach's fault that the team simply failed in a valiant effort against the strongest team in the league.
2003 - Again, a team led by Rick Adelman, gets into the playoffs and is doing quite well. Unfortunately, in game 2 of the conference semi-finals, the all-star power forward crumples to a heap on the ground and doesn't get back up. Even with that kick in the guts, RA is able to get the team to take the Mavericks to 7 games. Can you name any other team that year that could have done the same without one of their best players?
2004- I hate to repeat myself, but once again a team led by Rick Adelman gets to the playoffs. Despite how they got there and the controversies around Webber, the team is able to get past the first round, gains momentum and plays a very tough and determined TWolves to game 7. In a heart-breaking last second effort, Webber takes a shot that goes in, 2/3 of the way down and pops back out. Had that shot been good, the Kings would have gone to overtime. The momentum was with the Kings. Who knows what might have happened?
You see each season as a disappointment and you blame RA. Well, I see each season as one that ended without a championship - pretty much the same as fans of 29 of the other 30 teams. It wasn't the coach that missed free throws and you can't do a thing as a coach when your players don't make those FREE shots. It wasn't the coach who caused Webber's knee to pick that moment to explode. It wasn't the coach who reached up and pushed that ball back out of the hoop.
I'd like to know what another coach would have done differently. Sometimes, bleep happens...and it's happened for three years running to the Kings. Unless you're trying to say that RA is some kind of jonah (and I don't believe you are) you simply can't lay the blame at his feet...
Diabeticwonder
Bench
I have never laid all the blame at RA's feet...only some of it and some of it should be laid at his feet. This entire thread and back and forth thing about RA is because I first stated that I didn't think he could get us over the hump since he hasn't done so yet and I also stated that I don't think he will because it's my belief that the players have tuned him out...not to the degree of perhaps the Nugs recently tuning out Bizdelik or anything like that, but the lack of improvement on defense and rebounding during RA's tenure has lead me to believe this. RA obviously harps on these things every day with the team and during timeouts, but the lack of implementing what is most likely said and stressed tells me that he may not be getting through to some of the guys. Analyze each series over the past three years as much as you would like in order to bolster your argument that RA is the right coach for this team, but it's not going to disuade me from believing that the lack of defensive and rebouding improvement over that span is and will continue to be this team's downfall. While I know that the players are the ones that actually get the job done on the court I think that their failure to get it done over the years is attributable to RA.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Well, I don't think the issue is dead.Diabeticwonder said:
Rebounding and defense have NOT been static during the Adelman years. Followed an arc actually. We started out poor in both, improved dramatically and were actually one of the best defensive teams in the league from 01-03, and then has tailed off badly in the last two years. Now either Rick suddenly learned how to coach defense/rebounding during his tenure here and then just as abruptly forgot it, or the real key factor is personnel. Give Rick the right personnel, and his team leads the league in defense (02-03), strip him of the personnel, give him an aging and unathletic team and suddenly they struggle in those areas. Who would have thought? If we suddenly traded Peja for Shawn Marion does anybody think that we wouldn't suddenly become a dramatically better rebounding team? If we traded Brad for Duncan does anybody think our defense would get considerably better?
