treach1976
Bench
I voted to keep starting Ben. I think you start him at least through the AS Break. If his play continues to hurt the team, then you give more minutes to Thornton as the back-up. Similar to how IT off the bench was routinely getting more minutes than GV.
Per the IT / Ben discussion, not inextricably linked. Quite easy to extricate actually. The question on IT is, does his role as a highly efficient, but high volume scorer fit within the starting line-up that already features two really effective scorers? It's not about building a Big 3. To think that having a Big 3 is the magical formula to success is just silly, and only popular because a few teams as of recent have won with 3 high usage players. Now, if you want to argue that a Big 3 is essential in building a multi-year repeat threat, I would be more likely to buy into that, but then you need to look for a different Big 3 than Cousins/Gay/IT. Two of these three guys are just borderline all-stars right now.... Cousins is likely to be a perennial all-star in the future (it should start this year), and Gay, if he can get back to form, could also be. IT with the right team may have a couple of all-star seasons in him, but if SAC keeps on playing like we are playing, it won't happen here.
[added via edit to keep this about Ben
] I think the question with Ben is now that you've started him, do you yank him back to the bench because of rookie-standard play only to bench him for someone whose play is only questionably better at the most... I think at least for a few more weeks you ride it out if only so that you don't destroy the young man's confidence. You send the message through less playing time though. Then, you hope that a trade of some sort happens post AS Break that allows you reshuffle one more time.
Per the IT / Ben discussion, not inextricably linked. Quite easy to extricate actually. The question on IT is, does his role as a highly efficient, but high volume scorer fit within the starting line-up that already features two really effective scorers? It's not about building a Big 3. To think that having a Big 3 is the magical formula to success is just silly, and only popular because a few teams as of recent have won with 3 high usage players. Now, if you want to argue that a Big 3 is essential in building a multi-year repeat threat, I would be more likely to buy into that, but then you need to look for a different Big 3 than Cousins/Gay/IT. Two of these three guys are just borderline all-stars right now.... Cousins is likely to be a perennial all-star in the future (it should start this year), and Gay, if he can get back to form, could also be. IT with the right team may have a couple of all-star seasons in him, but if SAC keeps on playing like we are playing, it won't happen here.
[added via edit to keep this about Ben
] I think the question with Ben is now that you've started him, do you yank him back to the bench because of rookie-standard play only to bench him for someone whose play is only questionably better at the most... I think at least for a few more weeks you ride it out if only so that you don't destroy the young man's confidence. You send the message through less playing time though. Then, you hope that a trade of some sort happens post AS Break that allows you reshuffle one more time.
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Livinthedream
All-Star
It's fun to speculate and all, but some of you are digging yourself a hole with such strong opinions of Ben after 30 games. His role and the team have changed several times in a short period. Veterans have a hard enough time with that, let alone a 20 year old rookie.
I think the comparisons to TRob are way off base too. TRob was always a hustle/effort undersized guy. He was too physical for players in college. He doesn't have that advantage in the NBA. Ben is the right size and possesses a skill already. The only thing he needs to learn is how to best utilize that skill.
Our main concern at this point is a defensive big man if you're running with IT at the point. Something to help slow that dribble penetration that IT is going to give up. preferably through the draft. Looking for a new SG is premature. Second concern is keeping Gay.
If you think Ben can develop into a Klay Thompson, then you have to be patient and live with the mistakes. Remember that is Malone putting Ben in at crunch time so he can get the experience. Malone is already willing to live with what he knows may happen.
I think the comparisons to TRob are way off base too. TRob was always a hustle/effort undersized guy. He was too physical for players in college. He doesn't have that advantage in the NBA. Ben is the right size and possesses a skill already. The only thing he needs to learn is how to best utilize that skill.
Our main concern at this point is a defensive big man if you're running with IT at the point. Something to help slow that dribble penetration that IT is going to give up. preferably through the draft. Looking for a new SG is premature. Second concern is keeping Gay.
If you think Ben can develop into a Klay Thompson, then you have to be patient and live with the mistakes. Remember that is Malone putting Ben in at crunch time so he can get the experience. Malone is already willing to live with what he knows may happen.
Uncia03
Starter
Um...I think the point here is that a prime Cousins will be better (if not already) than a lot of the guys listed there, especially at the point they won a title. With Rudy looking to be a great #2 scorer who compliments Cousins what we need is exactly what you said, "PGs that need to get out of the way and not screw things up". We need a PG who can play good defense, distribute, get the ball to Cousins/Rudy in good spots, and not hurt us on offensive. You add a defensive big and a '3-and-D' SG to that mix and you have about as balanced a starting line-up that you could possibly hope for on both the offensive and defensive sides of the ball.
The rest of the scoring can come from the bench, with the hopes that the 3rd leading scorer on the team is coming off the bench ready to light things up.
We have the hardest to obtain piece to the puzzle in Cousins so now everything from here on out should be to build the best team from that. Having Gay who is an elite wing scorer should help the FO determine the best way to move forward.
Uncia03
Starter
I voted to keep starting Ben. I think you start him at least through the AS Break. If his play continues to hurt the team, then you give more minutes to Thornton as the back-up. Similar to how IT off the bench was routinely getting more minutes than GV.
Per the IT / Ben discussion, not inextricably linked. Quite easy to extricate actually. The question on IT is, does his role as a highly efficient, but high volume scorer fit within the starting line-up that already features two really effective scorers? It's not about building a Big 3. To think that having a Big 3 is the magical formula to success is just silly, and only popular because a few teams as of recent have won with 3 high usage players. Now, if you want to argue that a Big 3 is essential in building a multi-year repeat threat, I would be more likely to buy into that, but then you need to look for a different Big 3 than Cousins/Gay/IT. Two of these three guys are just borderline all-stars right now.... Cousins is likely to be a perennial all-star in the future (it should start this year), and Gay, if he can get back to form, could also be. IT with the right team may have a couple of all-star seasons in him, but if SAC keeps on playing like we are playing, it won't happen here.
[added via edit to keep this about Ben
The only thing that would prevent Cousins from getting an all-star nod this season is the bad record. I should also mention that if both Cousins and Rudy continue to play at this pace and if the team is a winning team next year then both of them will get selected to the all-star team as I'd be hard-pressed to name many SFs in the West (Other than Durant) better than Rudy if Rudy can continue to play anywhere near his current efficiency.
Getting a starting defensive big would be the biggest step towards that winning record, followed by getting starting defensive-minded guards.
In the meantime I would keep starting IT and looking for grouth from the team on both O and D. It's awful easy to say "get a better PG tha IT" than it is to do it. I'll believe it when it happens.
Uncia03
Starter
Oh, don't get me wrong. At this stage of the game you have to start IT. You start him if you decide that he's your guy for the future and you start him if you're trying to show-case him for a trade. The only guy who you could even consider starting over IT right now would be Ray, and that is only if the FO has faith that Ray is their guy for the future. And even if the FO does believe that, they are better served starting IT to increase any potential trade-value down the line.
At this point I think the idea that IT would willingly come off the bench as a spark-plug for the Kings has passed, especially if there is no additional roster movement.
But if you are going to play IT/Rudy/Cousins together in the starting line-up, then Ben really needs to come off the bench because he's going to have a hard time developing into a shooter if he rarely touches the ball in that line-up.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Cousins/Gay is at the very least a more talented offensive duo than anything Dirk and whoever had in '10.
Its more talented than anything Orlando had with Dwight/Hedo or whatever in '08(?) when they reached the Finals.
I think we need a poll. Going to start another thread in a minute anyway, but I want to see just how deluded a view of the rest of the league people have.
Padrino
All-Star
the conversation has never really been about getting "a better PG than IT." much more relevant has been the discussion of whether or not IT is the right starting PG for this team going forward. if the kings continue to lose enough games, dante exum and marcus smart--two full-sized PG's with considerable nba potential--could very well be there for the taking in the draft. in that sense, it might not be so difficult to replace thomas. there are veteran PG's rumored to be for sale, as well, including rajon rondo, kyle lowry, and goran dragic. do any of them represent an upgrade over thomas? it's certainly debatable, but i'm inclined to believe that IT's value is about as high as it will ever get, simply because it will be difficult for him to sustain this level of efficiency across the length of an entire season. so i'd package him with a larger contract before the trade deadline to bring back some two-way talent, or, at the very least, to bring back some defensive talent...
the way i see it, if cousins/gay are meant to be the team's cornerstones, then thomas is superfluous as a scorer in the starting unit. the rest of the team is already frozen out of the offense with the number of shots that cousins/gay/thomas are taking each game, and the acquisition of gay to begin with seems to insinuate that the front office doesn't view thomas as a clear #2 to DMC's #1. that said, thomas does not necessarily represent a need amongst the kings' starters. he certainly would represent a need as the kings' sixth man, if they had a starting-caliber PG who could replace him as the initiator of the offense. but this is the nba; it can be awfully difficult to have one's cake and eat it, too, especially if one's franchise is not located in a major market. sometimes you just have to suck it up and trade offensively-inclined assets to better balance a roster, and, more than anything, what this team truly needs is defensive help...
isaiah thomas was a minor asset on a roster in flux before the season began. he's become quite a useful asset in the time since then, and because the roster is still nowhere near solidified beyond demarcus cousins, i'd most definitely dangle IT across the trade block to see if other teams are willing to bite. for the time being, thomas' production is quite sufficient, given the holes that remain in the roster and mclemore's rookie ineptitude, but defensive help isn't just going to fall out of the sky. it will take a combination of smart drafting, aggressive trading, and shrewd free agent signings to shore up those team weaknesses...
Hey all. New here. I think the situation with McLemore is pretty tough. He's a rookie still learning, and I think promoting him as starter was a bad thing now that Vasquez isn't here. Not saying that IT is a bad pg, I think McLemore was better off with Vasquez at point. I think he should have been playing off the bench and learning from a vet. We gave him a big role, and he looks confused out there. He has defensive "potential", but right now it's horrid. I think we continue to start him because his confidence is another thing. He brings in effort, but he's just not hitting his shots and has a low bball iq.
That Dallas championship was flukey. They got hot at the right time. Dirk had one of his best years. Terry was as clutch as it gets. Barea caught fire in the playoffs and they had Marion and Chandler locking people up on D. That team was built better and succeeded in the playoffs with a crappy version of IT (Barea).
You think Cousins/Gay is more talented than Dwight/Hedo from their finals year? Dwight was head and shoulders better than Cousins. Comparing Dwight then to Cousins now, they were almost equal on offense while Dwight was dominate on defense. Hedo was doing everything back then from scoring, to rebounding, to playmaking.
We're simply not going to win with Cousins/Gay and a bunch of roleplayers. We need more talent...a 3rd wheel. You think we can just plug in a Chalmers or Fisher and all the sudden get better but there's no way that's going to happen. Fisher had Shaq/Kobe. Chalmers has Lebron/Wade. Those players are/were much much better than Cousins/Gay. 3 of those guys are top 10 of all time. Since we don't have the huge stars that can take over games, we need more talent at each position and can't afford to just have these fantasy land roleplayers at every position other than C and SF.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Ideally you would want a PG that is a pass first PG, but can score if needed, and is capable of playing defense. He doesn't have to be a lock down defender, he just has to know how to play team defense, and for the most part, stay in front of his man. What would you consider Parker? A scoring PG, or a pass first PG? What about Chris Paul? There are PG's that will end up at the end of the game with 18 to 20 points, and 8 to 10 assists, and you don't remember then doing all that during the game. Its because they do everything within the flow of the game. They don't put their hero hat on every time their team starts to go south.
In the last game I thought offensively, IT played very well until the beginning of the 4th quarter, when no one touched the ball but him for 5 possessions in a row, even though Gay had the hot hand previous to that. He totally ignored Williams who was open several times. It's those times in the games that just drive me nuts. Much was made of McLemore's defense, but did anyone pay attention to IT's defense to start the game. Parker went anywhere he wanted on the floor and several times without the use of a screen. On one occasion he just shot over him. I know some of you don't want to admit it, but IT is a liability on the defensive side of the ball, and you'll never win a championship with him as your starting PG. Its not his fault, its just the reality of his size. Uncia03 made some very good points about the effect IT has on players like McLemore and Williams, rendering them almost irrelevant when their on the floor with him.
After the game that I pointed out that McLemore was open 9 times that I counted, and waving his arm for the ball, and was totally ignored by IT, it was reported in the paper that IT apologized to Ben, and promised to be better at getting him the ball. Well, that didn't happen. As they say, a tiger can't change his stripes.
Uncia03
Starter
The Spurs didn't double Cousins and he killed them. When a team commits to doubling Cousins has shown that he can make the right pass.
Gay played very good offensive isolation basketball against both LBJ and Leonard who are some of the better SF defenders in this league.
Those two combined bring enough offense to either beat their man or force a defense out of position.
If you've got those two guys doing what they can do, then 2 other players spacing the floor/setting screens/cutting into lanes/moving off of screens and finally a PG who can get the ball where it needs to go when it isn't in Cousins/Gay's hands then that's all you need on the offensive end provided that you've got good defense from the 1, 2, 4 spots.
Ideally you then have a 3rd big scorer coming off the bench who can consistently get you 15-18 points a game.
We don't have to score 110 points to be a play-off team, and if we can get 60 points from our 3 main scorers (25 Cousins/20 Gay/15 3rd scorer) and then get 8-12 points from 3-4 other guys then that is plenty of scoring to win if you're playing good defense for 48 minutes.
Chupacabra
Starter
Oh boy. I hope you're just comparing ppg. Please let him be talking about ppg.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I agree with you that we need that third wheel, but I don't think the best third wheel is IT. I can see him as our Jason Terry guy off the bench. Maybe in a year or two, McLemore will be our third wheel, maybe not. But there is one thing that almost every NBA champion has, and most of the teams that even get into the championship round, and that's experience. Right now, the most experienced good player we have on the team is Gay. After that, we're a very young team. How many teams have won a championship with their best player being a 22 year old center. To make matters worse, Gay has only played in what, 10 or so games with the Kings (sorry I didn't look it up). How long have Duncan, Ginolibi, and Parker played together? How long have Wade, Bosh, and Lebron been in the league?
Some of you people need a reality check! This team has holes in it. Yes, it has some very good talent, but most of that talent hasn't played together for more than the 29 games we've played this season. When we, and by we I mean the Kings, decide that a player is part of the future, then we need to plug him in and let him play, and keep him there. You don't just up and trade McLemore after 29 games. The idea that anyone would think he's a bust after just a few games just blows my mind. You can't build anything if your constantly changing parts. Just make sure you get good parts to begin with.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I completely agree. I wonder, does anyone remember Mike Bibby, and how he fit on the team with Vlade, Webber and Peja. We had J. Will, who was a ton of fun to watch, but he was also trigger happy, and you never knew when he was going to just pullup at the line and shoot a three pointer with no one down under the basket. Bibby was the perfect PG for that team. He'd bring the ball up the floor, and get it in to either Webb or Vlade, and then play off the ball. Whatever points he scored, he scored within the flow of the game, and Bibby, while not being a great individual defender, was a very good team defender. We traded a very talented, exciting (regular on ESPN highlights reel) but loose cannon, for an unspectacular solid, dependable PG. And it worked.
roasthawg
Starter
Got a question about McLemore... what exactly separates him from a Gerald Green? Is he just a more athletic Anthony Morrow? I didn't like him predraft but I'm a big believer in our fo... just trying to figure out Ben's ceiling at this point. I hear some of the talking heads mention possible future all-star (at least early in the year) and I'm just wondering where they get that.... what are they hoping he develops into?
Elite level athlete with good (though not great) size for the two guard position and a picture perfect shooting stroke and quick release. Ideally you're looking at a player who can light defenses up in a few years the way Klay Thompson is right now. McLemore's shooting percentages in college were great across the board and while his defensive technique needs work, he has shown the willingness to work hard on that end as well as more than enough lateral quickness to stay in front of guys. He's going to have some problems with bigger wings until he gets stronger and he's also way too over-anxious going for blocks and steals when he should be focusing on keeping his man out of the paint. He needs to get more comfortable with the longer NBA 3pt line and develop some one or two dribble escape moves and pullup shots for when his defender is playing him close. Obviously he has a ways to go, but you look at where he is already and you can project him out to be one of the better shooting guards in the league by the time he's in his prime 5 or 6 years from now. He's very young and hasn't taken the next step yet from prospect to player (he only played one year of NCAA ball), but it's very rare to find anyone in college with his combination of eye-popping athleticism and soft shooting touch.
TheBadGuy
Bench
Ben is more of an athletic Ray Allen-type player.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
To be fair I am sure he was asking this question because everything before "and a" also describes Green.
Mclemore is much better laterally than Green, who's pretty incompetent on perimeter, so has more potential as a defender. Ray Allen must vanish from comparisons though unless we are talking Boston version, but even there he flashed very good handles as a spot PG. Mclemore should be a much better finisher with hops and pretty good balance, but he's a rookie rushing things, so you get missed cheappies at the rim. His potential is all-court threat off-the-ball mover with excellent defense. Mclemore had much better second half of the season defensively in college (and that's in Conference and Tourney play, so against much better competition), so you can expect real improvements defensively once he settles in. We're still only one third into the season. Lots of basketball to play.
Bosnian Diehard
Starter
He said "talented offensive duo"...
S
SacKings2002NBAChampions
Guest
Sounds a lot like IT :O
Bibby and Webber had a special partnership and Peja and Vlade had a special partnership. In fact, it was the perfect combo. Only thing I didn't like about Bibby was the part where he was obsessed with his stats once he joined the big 3 in Sac. Albeit, that was a team chemistry never seen on court before thanks to Vlade.
I don't like the Ray Allen comparison. Ray Allen was better at absolutely everything, even as a rookie. I don't see McLemore ever putting up half the numbers Allen did. Allen averaged 22/5/4 for years and years. We'll be lucky if McLemore can average 13/4/2 with non grotesque shooting percentages.
S
SacKings2002NBAChampions
Guest
I don't see why he can't? The major downfall of McLemore is that he's got low basketball IQ. The game doesn't run smoothly for him. In the 4th quarter against the Rockets, there was a moment when Gay or IT shot the ball and all the players in the post were getting ready for a rebound, then you had Ben who was still running a play and had no idea that a shot had been taken already
I don't remember the last time I laughed so hard. Once the game becomes more natural for him, he'll be a great player. You can tell he has excellent work ethic and he's extremely fast and athletic. Extremely.... His acceleration is like an NFL player. I think it's only uphill for him. The downside, I think it will take him a couple years to fully adjust to the league. The Kings are at a stage where they need "NOW" players. I have a hard time seeing us turn down a good trade for Ben Mac if it comes. Otherwise, I think Ben will have a couple seasons of averaging 20 points per game and some rebounds with a couple assists. He won't be a hall of famer like Allen, though. After Michael Carter Williams, he has the second best potential in the squad.
Entity
Hall of Famer
I think the comparison comes because of style not stats.
He can't handle the ball....at all. Have we ever had a SG that had worse handles than Ben? I just can't see him having a successful career if he can't dribble the ball without it going off his leg or being stolen. You can say he's a rookie and all that but you just don't see players all the sudden learn how to handle the ball in the big leagues. I mean if he's still running a play while a shot is taken or something, I can chalk that up to being a rookie.
I don't see how his style matches with Allen's either. Allen could handle the ball and play point guard on some possessions. Just because Ben can shoot (well he's supposed to be able to) and jump, doesn't mean we should compare him to a HOF player. I think Gerald Green is a much better comparison.
How is he going to be able to average 20ppg? He can't find his own shot so he's going to have to rely on someone else to find him all game. There aren't many spot shooters that score 20 a game. Off the top of my head, the only one I can think of is Peja, who is an all time world class shooter. Peja also had the luxury of playing with Divac/Webber/Christie/Bibby, which was basically like having 4 point guards on the court with him.
I don't see how his style matches with Allen's either. Allen could handle the ball and play point guard on some possessions. Just because Ben can shoot (well he's supposed to be able to) and jump, doesn't mean we should compare him to a HOF player. I think Gerald Green is a much better comparison.
How is he going to be able to average 20ppg? He can't find his own shot so he's going to have to rely on someone else to find him all game. There aren't many spot shooters that score 20 a game. Off the top of my head, the only one I can think of is Peja, who is an all time world class shooter. Peja also had the luxury of playing with Divac/Webber/Christie/Bibby, which was basically like having 4 point guards on the court with him.
Chubbs
Starter
Where did this Ben has a low basketball IQ thing come from? It's suddenly popping up everywhere on this board and repeated over and over as fact. I don't think he's at a comfort level where we can even think of making any determination like that.
Is he inexperienced, raw and sometimes clueless? Yes, he's a 20 year old rookie thrown into the fire on a rebuilding team with little from his teammates. We are not in win now mode or he wouldn't be on the court. I guess I should expect absurd statements from some people and just let it go, but we are absolutely not in win now mode. That would actually be detrimental, not helpful. You try to win of course, but you don't start benching rookies cause these games are just too important to build for the future. I see no downside at all on him growing into his role. If we get a decent PG, you'll see Ben start to flourish sooner rather than later. Right now our so called "Big 3" is missing the 3rd piece. Which means we are far from win now mode. We are in asset acquiring phase. I don't think we even have a core. I don't even know that Rudy is a lasting part of the puzzle.
We have one sure thing. Cousins. That's really it. And I strongly think Ben is getting 3 years at least to prove himself. Which makes him at least as likely to be here as 2/3s of the so called big 3, one of which is a FA this year, and the other who may opt out and leave also this season.
When people say win now, what do you mean? The 8 seed and a first round exit? Is that what we're talking about? I see little value in that. Much improved team play and defense is the goal, and only that. That's all the FO has preached all season.
Some of you are digging some deep holes in regards to Ben. Be careful.
Is he inexperienced, raw and sometimes clueless? Yes, he's a 20 year old rookie thrown into the fire on a rebuilding team with little from his teammates. We are not in win now mode or he wouldn't be on the court. I guess I should expect absurd statements from some people and just let it go, but we are absolutely not in win now mode. That would actually be detrimental, not helpful. You try to win of course, but you don't start benching rookies cause these games are just too important to build for the future. I see no downside at all on him growing into his role. If we get a decent PG, you'll see Ben start to flourish sooner rather than later. Right now our so called "Big 3" is missing the 3rd piece. Which means we are far from win now mode. We are in asset acquiring phase. I don't think we even have a core. I don't even know that Rudy is a lasting part of the puzzle.
We have one sure thing. Cousins. That's really it. And I strongly think Ben is getting 3 years at least to prove himself. Which makes him at least as likely to be here as 2/3s of the so called big 3, one of which is a FA this year, and the other who may opt out and leave also this season.
When people say win now, what do you mean? The 8 seed and a first round exit? Is that what we're talking about? I see little value in that. Much improved team play and defense is the goal, and only that. That's all the FO has preached all season.
Some of you are digging some deep holes in regards to Ben. Be careful.
Yes but when I think back on those years, I remember Doug Christy bringing the ball up court and not Bibby so much. Doug was a pleasure to watch play, I still miss him.
We need another Doug Christy.
S
SacKings2002NBAChampions
Guest
Doug Christy was a dream. The kings really made some amazing moves during those years. Even our draft picks were extremely well: Gerald Wallace, Kevin Martin, Hedo Turkoglu and a few others all became stars in the league at some point in their career.
Doug Christy and Bruce Bowen were two of the most underrated players in the NBA and also the two best defenders the NBA had seen in a long time. I still remember vividly when Christy gave Rick Fox that little uppercut. I was a kid but oh man did I have a smirk on my face when that happened
Christy could shoot, pass, dribble, bring up the ball and hold it better than most point guards, and his defense needs no mention. To think he was only the 4th best player in that team....Wow.
The crazy part is that if the Kings make a couple right moves here and there and they get a decent draft pick, we could be looking at another good generation like that one. But man we really made some good moves back then that will be hard to follow in those footsteps...
Doug Christy and Bruce Bowen were two of the most underrated players in the NBA and also the two best defenders the NBA had seen in a long time. I still remember vividly when Christy gave Rick Fox that little uppercut. I was a kid but oh man did I have a smirk on my face when that happened
Christy could shoot, pass, dribble, bring up the ball and hold it better than most point guards, and his defense needs no mention. To think he was only the 4th best player in that team....Wow.
The crazy part is that if the Kings make a couple right moves here and there and they get a decent draft pick, we could be looking at another good generation like that one. But man we really made some good moves back then that will be hard to follow in those footsteps...
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