WCS

[KingsFanSince85]

We're looking to move WCS huh?

So that makes yet another draft bust.

Overreact much?

It all depends on what they get in return (should they really move him) , now doesn't it? If they net something good in return then it means he had value and that's not a bust for the Kings.

****! Can we hit on one ******* draft?! This is how teams stay crap forever.

They did. In 2010. And oddly some Kings fans want to run that player out of town. Just like the #60 pick in the 2012 draft that they also hit on.

 

[hrdboild]

Overreact much?

It all depends on what they get in return (should they really move him) , now doesn't it? If they net something good in return then it means he had value and that's not a bust for the Kings.



They did. In 2010. And oddly some Kings fans want to run that player out of town. Just like the #60 pick in the 2012 draft that they also hit on.

It may not make him a bust, but it's not a good thing either. Teams draft players in the lottery hoping that they will be building blocks for the future of the team. We already moved Nik Stauskas after 1 season, Thomas Robinson even faster. Even if they were to succeed elsewhere, that's still a run of historically bad drafting. No other team is drafting in the lottery and then dumping those players after a year or so over and over again. It's already obvious that we would have been better off taking Myles Turner or Devin Booker -- those players are already big contributors on their teams and would be here as well. There's only so many times we can screw up the draft before we just have to trade Cousins for assets and start over. And that's the particularly frustrating part. We already drafted a franchise player but there's only so long we can keep him before he'll get tired of losing and start exploring his options elsewhere.

 

[IfAt1st]

There's only so many times we can screw up the draft before we just have to trade Cousins for assets and start over. And that's the particularly frustrating part. We already drafted a franchise player but there's only so long we can keep him before he'll get tired of losing and start exploring his options elsewhere.

And that's the particularly terrifying part - if the Kings can't win after hitting the lottery with Cousins because of subsequent incompetent drafting and management, then the practical reality is that the Kings will NEVER be a winning team again.

* If the Kings can't draft well
* and when they do they screw up any support for him (and try to drive him out of town)
* and we know free agents aren't coming here when the team is a 10+ year loser and media backwater and the management a laughingstock

It's the trifecta that virtually guarantees that our 30-year lease is a doomed marriage to a perennially losing team, an embarrassment to the league.

 

[Larry89]

Willie should maybe look to pick up a rotisserie chicken from the grocery store or something later tonight for dinner, he could use those leftover bones for a spine. Would be a nice start for him since he doesn't have one

 

[206Fan]

And that's the particularly terrifying part - if the Kings can't win after hitting the lottery with Cousins because of subsequent incompetent drafting and management, then the practical reality is that the Kings will NEVER be a winning team again.

* If the Kings can't draft well
* and when they do they screw up any support for him (and try to drive him out of town)
* and we know free agents aren't coming here when the team is a 10+ year loser and media backwater and the management a laughingstock

It's the trifecta that virtually guarantees that our 30-year lease is a doomed marriage to a perennially losing team, an embarrassment to the league.

I think this is the part where the Kings need to bring in someone else who's either A) Been a successful GM or B) Has been a big part of a successful FO.

The Kings also clearly need to put a lot more money into their personnel scouting and development guys.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

It may not make him a bust, but it's not a good thing either. Teams draft players in the lottery hoping that they will be building blocks for the future of the team.

Oh, I get that. Believe me. All I'm saying is, if WCS ends up developing into an impact player over the next season or two or if they end up moving him for a piece that fits better -- it's not a bust. It's the end result that matters most.

No other team is drafting in the lottery and then dumping those players after a year or so over and over again. It's already obvious that we would have been better off taking Myles Turner or Devin Booker -- those players are already big contributors on their teams and would be here as well. There's only so many times we can screw up the draft before we just have to trade Cousins for assets and start over. And that's the particularly frustrating part. We already drafted a franchise player but there's only so long we can keep him before he'll get tired of losing and start exploring his options elsewhere.

Agreed. But a lot of the poor draft choices hinge on the instability that's plagued the franchise for the past 5 years. Different FO personnel with different ideas wanting to go in different directions. Different coaches, etc. I truly believe that if they just keep the same FO and coaches together for a while, they will start to hit on some of these draft picks.

But as you pointed out, it will likely be too late for Boogie.

 

[beb0p]

Agreed. But a lot of the poor draft choices hinge on the instability that's plagued the franchise for the past 5 years. Different FO personnel with different ideas wanting to go in different directions. Different coaches, etc. I truly believe that if they just keep the same FO and coaches together for a while, they will start to hit on some of these draft picks.

I wondered about that for a long time, but the result doesn't bear it. Only Whiteside has ever gone to another team and vastly outperformed his stint here, but I'd argue that he was never given much of an opportunity here in the first place.

IT and Reke did good (to various degree) but they've already shown they are good players with the Kings.

Otherwise, the rest of the gang are either a wash or played even worse after leaving Sacramento - Jimmer, T-Rob, Hawes, Quincy, JT, Donte Greene, etc.

The one guy who could be the outlier is Nik Stauskas. I really think he will eventually become a very solid player. He is one guy I'd argue that perhaps the Kings gave up on him too soon.
.

 

[lwc]

I'm not sure if this has been posted or not yet but here it is:

http://kentuckysportsradio.com/nba-cats/cauley-stein-reportedly-wants-out-of-sacramento/

 

[Kingsfan23]

The one draft pick I liked over the last stretch of years is Skal. I think he will be a serious player and can eventually be the compliment to Cousins. Moving WCS would open up that slot of minutes

Unfortunately that pick isn't an endorsement to Vlade though, as it was a no brainer

 

[kingsboi]

Watching Willie last night, he over helps way too much on the perimeter IMO. He then doesn't recover in time in order to stop the penetration in the middle of the defense, leaving glaring holes all over the court. I sure hope someone on the staff is teaching his dude on properly establishing position and to not over commit so much.

 

[kingsboi]

I'm not sure if this has been posted or not yet but here it is:

http://kentuckysportsradio.com/nba-cats/cauley-stein-reportedly-wants-out-of-sacramento/

Didn't Ben want out last season? By the way, based on the way he is playing, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if that was the case. Let's remember what Rudy said himself and I quote "Welcome to basketball hell"

 

[ESP47]

If we can't get some sweet trade deal then I say bench him and teach him a lesson. This dude thinks he can just go float around and half ass it on the court and get playing time over guys who are out there giving effort? Screw him. You earn your time on the court. I'm tired of watching his laziness.

McLemore might be a bust but at least he puts in the effort out there.

 

[Jimbob]

Tr

I'm not sure if this has been posted or not yet but here it is:

http://kentuckysportsradio.com/nba-cats/cauley-stein-reportedly-wants-out-of-sacramento/[/quot

Trading Willi might be the best way to improve soon. Trading Gay might keep us from losing him for nothing but it wont make us a better team anytime soon.

Last nights lose to LA just drives home that outside of Cuz and Rudy no one on this team makes that positive of a difference. We need to swing for a big like Noel, I know hes out with knee, or a young guard that has proven he belongs.

 

[Jimbob]

Well that last post messed up, typing on this small Ipad when Im not yet awake doesn't help. Anyways Im fine trading Willi if he nets us youth with serious promise.

 

[Hoovtrain]

So WCS is benched for effort and motor issues...and is unhappy with his role?

 

[Bricklayer]

I'm not sure if this has been posted or not yet but here it is:

http://kentuckysportsradio.com/nba-cats/cauley-stein-reportedly-wants-out-of-sacramento/

Well, given that I have been speculating about trading him from our end for a few weeks now, I can hardly disagree.

However, what happened there still leaves me a little non-plussed.

He is drafted. Vlade talks about liking him personally because of his thoughtfulness.

He struggles with and by the end is openly in conflict with Karl.

Cuz and rondo apparently going to bat for him behind the scenes with Karl.

Fans love him for the highlight stuff.

So offseason rolls around.

Karl is fired.

A big-man centric coach is hired to replace him.

Everything is looking great, or so I thought.

Then we draft multiple bigs (and indeed even if kept our pick the consensus choice was another big).

Then Willie turns up in Summer League, gets to try to play as an offensive player, which he has made noises about his first year. Fails miserably and looks terrible.

He comes to camp, never impresses, seems to be nancy-pantsing around out there. Loses his starting role to Koufos.

And continues that into the season. Falls into the doghouse, and the feeling appears mutual. Joerger uses coded language about effort.


So, when did it all go wrong? At the point Karl was fired and Joerger hired, I assumed that would be a big turning point for Willie. But maybe Joerger's focus on rugged slow pace ball was more important as a negative than him being a genial big man guy? The rium running was critical? Valde started drafting more big guys, and people, including me, interpreted that as Cuz insurance. Were there already problems and that was actually WCS insurance? Did Willie blame somebody else for failing as an offensive player in Summer League? Did at some point his relationship with Cuz turn sour?

I have been seeing the obvious symptoms and started talking about Willie trades in recent weeks because of it, but I still really don't understand the root causes of those symptoms.

 

[VF21]

WCS was drafted for DEFENSE. His rebounding and blocks were what made him unique and valuable, IMHO. I think his biggest problem now is that he wants to be the guy at the end of the alley-oops instead of the guy at the other end making sure the opponent doesn't ever get a second-chance bucket. We took a draft horse and tried to turn him into a Derby contender.

 

[Suicide King]

For context lets hear what WCS himself had to say

 

[hrdboild]

WCS was drafted for DEFENSE. His rebounding and blocks were what made him unique and valuable, IMHO. I think his biggest problem now is that he wants to be the guy at the end of the alley-oops instead of the guy at the other end making sure the opponent doesn't ever get a second-chance bucket. We took a draft horse and tried to turn him into a Derby contender.

I've got to disagree on this point mostly because I was so against the perception that he was a defensive stud to begin with. We had debates about his poor rebounding and shotblocking numbers before the draft. I made the point that Mikki Moore had slightly better numbers in college and we all know how he turned out. The argument for Willie was that what he does (defensively) isn't accurately counted in the stats. The argument against him was that he spends too much time doing basically nothing.

That being said, there's no reason why he can't be a defensive stud if he wanted to be. Another problem I had with Willie before the draft is that he said he said in an interview that he doesn't watch tape and doesn't feel like he needs to. That's a huge red flag for me. That means this guy is getting by solely on physical tools alone. Coach Joerger is a solid defensive coach. He should be able to teach fundamentals of positioning, boxing out, the importance of watching tape and preparing a game plan, etc. but Willie has to humble himself a bit and come into work ready to learn. And stop worrying about shots. I'm sick of players complaining about shots instead of defensive effort.

 

[VF21]

I've got to disagree on this point mostly because I was so against the perception that he was a defensive stud to begin with. We had debates about his poor rebounding and shotblocking numbers before the draft. I made the point that Mikki Moore had slightly better numbers in college and we all know how he turned out. The argument for Willie was that what he does (defensively) isn't accurately counted in the stats. The argument against him was that he spends too much time doing basically nothing.

That being said, there's no reason why he can't be a defensive stud if he wanted to be. Another problem I had with Willie before the draft is that he said he said in an interview that he doesn't watch tape and doesn't feel like he needs to. That's a huge red flag for me. That means this guy is getting by solely on physical tools alone. Coach Joerger is a solid defensive coach. He should be able to teach fundamentals of positioning, boxing out, the importance of watching tape and preparing a game plan, etc. but Willie has to humble himself a bit and come into work ready to learn. And stop worrying about shots. I'm sick of players complaining about shots instead of defensive effort.

I tried to find part of your post to disagree with, but (except for the fact I truly thought he had above-average defensive skills) alas I found nothing...

 

[Jimbob]

I would like to think Rozier for Willi would work for both both teams. Same draft class, Boston has many young guards and we need someone who can potentially neutralize all these guards lighting us up.

 

[biltalent]

I wonder if Detroid would be interested in a package built around Willie + Ben/Richardson for Stanley Johnson. They actually play him less minutes than last year as other guys like Harris and Morris seem to push him to play back up 2 guard which is certainly not his ideal position. I therefore wonder if Wcs+Ben/Richardson for Johnson is an option? Would give Detroit another athletic 5 and a wing shooter of the bench so I could see them being interested. Maybe even add PapaG in there as Detroit was apparently the reason Vlade thought he would not last until #22.

For us it would give us another young prospect that fits better with our hidden youth movement. So we would have Skal (PF), Johnson (SF), Bogdanovic (SG) + maybe a PG from this years draft developing while we try to stay competitve with Boogie + veterans.

 

[KingMilz]

I wonder if Detroid would be interested in a package built around Willie + Ben/Richardson for Stanley Johnson. They actually play him less minutes than last year as other guys like Harris and Morris seem to push him to play back up 2 guard which is certainly not his ideal position. I therefore wonder if Wcs+Ben/Richardson for Johnson is an option? Would give Detroit another athletic 5 and a wing shooter of the bench so I could see them being interested. Maybe even add PapaG in there as Detroit was apparently the reason Vlade thought he would not last until #22.

For us it would give us another young prospect that fits better with our hidden youth movement. So we would have Skal (PF), Johnson (SF), Bogdanovic (SG) + maybe a PG from this years draft developing while we try to stay competitve with Boogie + veterans.

Another option is Justin Anderson for WCS, Mavs love the athletic skinny dunking bigs, I would prefer Johnson/Rozier/Portis/Holmes for WCS

 

[gil renard]

I wanted McCaw in the draft with one of our picks in the 20's...could we get him from the Dubs for Willie straight up?

 

[biltalent]

Another option is Justin Anderson for WCS, Mavs love the athletic skinny dunking bigs, I would prefer Johnson/Rozier/Portis/Holmes for WCS

Anderson is another interesting idea. I really liked him coming out of college as a late pick. However I think I would rather give up another asset and go for Stanley. Anderson is really struggling with his shot (even more than Stanley) and is already 23 whereas Stanley is only 20. However he seems not hesistant to take them and I didn't watch any Mavs games so take that with a grain of salt. Did you catch any Mavs games so far and saw how he looked?

Regardless of whether one likes Johnson or Anderson better I would really like to get a SF so we can focus on drafting a PG if we are indeed going to keep our pick. Ntilikina, Frank Jackson and De'Aaron Fox all seem to have a lot of potential and should be around 5-10. If we are going to lose the pick up however, Terry Rozier or Cameron Payne become more interesting.

 

[gunks]

Overreact much?

Yes!!!

Let me be frustrated, alright! This one stings because I actually thought WCS could be a beast for us!

Anyways, good point about us potentially getting a decent return for him if he does indeed want out. Vlade might not be great at drafting talent, but I really love the gutsy trades he makes. WCS should still have some pretty decent value around the league based on potential. Insanely mobile 7 footers dont exactly grow on trees.

Anyways, if you dont mind me, I'm gonna go back to flying off the handle at every little setback we face. At least I'm loyal.

 

[Kingster]

WCS. His defense was overrated. His rebounding was overrated. His energy was overrated. He can run fast. Super. Trade him to the 9rs; they need some wide receiver help. Maybe the Kings can get a 7th round NFL pick and and draft somebody that actually likes physical contact.

I've been highly unimpressed with the Vlade drafts. The only guy that remotely looks like he could play in the future is Skal and that was more of a lark pick than anything else. Papa is a joke.

Vlade's fab qualification when hired was that he had scouted a few guys for the Lakers. People buy tires for their car with more due diligence than that. He was a small time small town nepotism hire and to add insult to injury he hires his buddy, also with zero experience, as the head of player personnel. Nepotism squared. The question is how long do you wait with Divac? How many gut punching future drafts are you willing to risk? The horror of it all is that if Vlade is as incompetent of a draft manager as his first two drafts indicate, and the Kings get 1st round picks as compensation in a Cousins' deal, Divac could put the final nail in the coffin by squandering those picks. The stakes are high and there is no prior track record to give confidence going forward.

 

[KingMilz]

Anderson is another interesting idea. I really liked him coming out of college as a late pick. However I think I would rather give up another asset and go for Stanley. Anderson is really struggling with his shot (even more than Stanley) and is already 23 whereas Stanley is only 20. However he seems not hesistant to take them and I didn't watch any Mavs games so take that with a grain of salt. Did you catch any Mavs games so far and saw how he looked?

Regardless of whether one likes Johnson or Anderson better I would really like to get a SF so we can focus on drafting a PG if we are indeed going to keep our pick. Ntilikina, Frank Jackson and De'Aaron Fox all seem to have a lot of potential and should be around 5-10. If we are going to lose the pick up however, Terry Rozier or Cameron Payne become more interesting.

Yeah I agree Johnson>>>Anderson all day I was just throwing out the idea since I doubt the Pistons would want another C who can't space the floor and the Mavs are actually in need of a C (Bogut is injury prone/they need young C's) and it's a fair trade since both players have low basketball IQ but Anderson plays with no regard for his body. While Johnson has been awful I think his ceiling is ridiculously high I can't see the Pistons giving him up for our assets.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Yes!!!

Let me be frustrated, alright! This one stings because I actually thought WCS could be a beast for us!

Anyways, good point about us potentially getting a decent return for him if he does indeed want out. Vlade might not be great at drafting talent, but I really love the gutsy trades he makes. WCS should still have some pretty decent value around the league based on potential. Insanely mobile 7 footers dont exactly grow on trees.

Anyways, if you dont mind me, I'm gonna go back to flying off the handle at every little setback we face. At least I'm loyal.

We're all frustrated. I yell at my TV on a nightly basis and have been doing so for 10+ years now

Think of how CUBS fans felt most of the past 108 years! They had a lot of really bad years too.

Point is, it could always be worse.

 

[CyKings]

I wonder if Detroid would be interested in a package built around Willie + Ben/Richardson for Stanley Johnson. They actually play him less minutes than last year as other guys like Harris and Morris seem to push him to play back up 2 guard which is certainly not his ideal position. I therefore wonder if Wcs+Ben/Richardson for Johnson is an option? Would give Detroit another athletic 5 and a wing shooter of the bench so I could see them being interested. Maybe even add PapaG in there as Detroit was apparently the reason Vlade thought he would not last until #22.

For us it would give us another young prospect that fits better with our hidden youth movement. So we would have Skal (PF), Johnson (SF), Bogdanovic (SG) + maybe a PG from this years draft developing while we try to stay competitve with Boogie + veterans.

would drive all 3 to the airport in a second if Detroit accepted that trade. Highly doubt they would like that offer though.