WCS willing to change roles?

#61
Wade Baldwin the number 17 pick last year was waived today by Memphis! They also waived the number 35 pick Rade Zagoric! Talk about whiffing on their draft picks!!!

To put this fail in perspective Draymond Green was the 35th pick the year he came out!

Willie and Papa are looking great in comparison.
 
#62
I think once the regular season starts, Coach Joeger will reign in the "Free Willie" offensive show. ;)

If WCS tries to get too cute on offense, I think Joeger will bench him, until he learns his limitations and plays within himself.

The pre-season and Summer league is not a good indication of what coach will allow the players to do in the regular season, once games start to count.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#63
That's super fair. I'm not saying you are wrong, looking at this wrong, or the circumstances you raise aren't right.

I'm just saying that it's fairly unclear whether Willie gets there. And that the path forward for getting him there isn't obvious based upon the person and issues in play.
I would say that's a fair statement. All I've been trying to say is that it's OK to be critical, but lets not lynch him.
 
#64
Just heard him on Grant's show this afternoon saying he sees himself as a 20-10 guy, mentioned something about having a hard job to "replace" DMC. He might be a little delusional... maybe not. Maybe he's a 20-10 guy but I hope he doesn't kill us trying to prove it.
 
#65
Just heard him on Grant's show this afternoon saying he sees himself as a 20-10 guy, mentioned something about having a hard job to "replace" DMC. He might be a little delusional... maybe not. Maybe he's a 20-10 guy but I hope he doesn't kill us trying to prove it.
The ego is actually the positive I see.. it keeps his intent on being successful at least
 
#66
The ego is actually the positive I see.. it keeps his intent on being successful at least
I have to admit when I was listening to him I was thinking "who are you and what have you done with WCS!?".

But, like I heard coach Shanahan say the other day... "I see better than I hear". Everybody sounds great and says the right stuff in radio interviews. I'll believe it when I see it. I hope so - starting tomorrow.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
#67
Not saying there aren't legit gripes about Willie. All I'm saying is maybe our expectations are a bit to high, or perhaps our time schedule isn't a fair one. Fox started playiing basketball when he was 8 yr's old. Not unusual, and most of the players playing in the NBA started at an early age. Willie started his junior year in highschool. Before that he was a very highly regarded wide receiver on his football team. So like it or not, he started from behind and is still playing catch up.

You can call that an excuse, but I simply call it a fact. Now we can either accept that, and be patient, or we can continue to howl at the moon. I happen to think there's a lot of potential there, and I want to see that come to fruition on the Kings, and not another team. One of the reasons the Kings are in the situation their in, is because they haven't had any patience. They keep changing GM's, Coaches, and Players. That said, I could be dead wrong about Willie. My wanting him to be a solid player won't make it so. But I'd like to find out.

I will certainlly grant you this. He has to perform this season. I suspect the starting job is his to lose, so it's time for him to rise to the occasion.
Valid points all, especially the last sentence. I hope he exceeds all our expectations. :)
 
#68
Just so you know, I was a big fan of Cousins, and I took the same approach with Cousins that I'm taking with Willie. Big men traditionally take 3 to 4 years to reach whatever level they're going to reach. By no means am I going to let Willie off the hook for lack of intensity. Whatever improvements he makes on the offensive side of the ball shouldn't come at the expense of the defensive side of the ball. However, I don't put a lot of emphasis on what occurs in preseason games. And, I don't think it has to be either/or.

It appears to me that their trying to run a lot of the game through Willie in the high post. When a team is working on certain things, I'm willing to excuse the lack of performance in other areas. But only in preseason. If I see some of these things carry over to the regular season, then I'll get concerned about them. But my god folks, can we at least get 20 games into the season before we start forming the lynch mob. I know some of you have put a label on Willie, and if he does anything to change that label your upset. Willie's idea of who he is may be different than yours. And his idea may not be the right one either. But I'll never fault a player for trying to expand his game. Especially a young player.

The hard part is taking the things you've worked on and smoothly merging them into your game. Most times, it doesn't happen smoothly. Plus, I think it can affect your focus in other area's. I don't think that's an excuse, but it is a historical fact. If it works you have yourself a more valuable player. If it doesn't, well, then you've wasted a lot of time. I'm hoping for the former. Whatever the outcome, Willie's fate will likely be decided at season's end. My hope is that he earn's that extension and becomes the King's center of the future. But he does have to earn it.
There is no lynch mob. Players will get criticized and there will be disagreement over the level of valid criticism.
Willie approaches his 3rd season in the NBA. Criticism isn't about this years preseason games, but about his whole body of work with the Kings. That's because the issues Willie had in preseason aren't new.
I think nobody is proclaiming right now, that Willie is a lost cause, or that the Kings should give up on him, or that his issues can't be fixed. Instead pretty much everyone writes, that Willie has all the tools and all the talent he needs.
So there is no need to exaggerate things.

You make some good points. I agree, that our current system has something to do with Willies struggles on offense. I agree that it's a great thing, when Willie tries to expand his game and I would be happy, if he actually develops into a core piece of our offense.

You wrote, that you don't let him off the hook for his lack of intensity and that his offense shouldn't affect his defense. That's excactly where I'm coming from, so I don't think there actually is that much dissens between the two of us.

From my humble point of view players should focus on the fundamentals before worrying about anything else. In general and even moreso in todays guard driven league the big man fundamentals are defense, rebounding, rolling to the basket and running the floor.
When a player has stellar physical tools like Willie, the fundamentals are basically all he needs to be a franchise cornerstone and potentially max contract player. I mean Willie is a legit 7footer, who is one of the fastest players in the league up and down the floor, who can jump straight out of the building, who is one of the most explosive bigs I ever saw and who is also blessed with way above average body coordination for a guy his size.

Buddy, Skal, Papa, KK and especially DMC don't have the kind of physical gifts Willie has. Therefore I agree, that I hold Willie to a different standard, than the above mentioned, when it comes to making athletic plays or using athleticism to cover ground on D.

It drove me crazy when DMC took plays off on D, or when he basically was put in a pick&roll everytime down the floor by the opponent, because he couldn't move his feet quick enough. But I knew that he had his physical limitations, that caused these issues and that he would try to make up for them in other areas. That's why I was in the pro Cousins crowd during his tenure as a King.

Or take Marcus Smart as an example. The guy so far is one of the worst outside shooters in the history of the game and his shot selection is aweful at times. But watch the season opener versus the Cavs and you have to admit, that Smart was one of the main reasons the Celtics came back into the game, because he found a way to contribute in other areas just due to his intensity alone. He came up with huge defensive stops, he rebounded, he got to the floor for looseballs and he posted up every Cavs player not named Lebron. His offense was gruesome in the beginning of the game and after the horrible Hayward injury, he tried way too hard on offense.
But after the half he focused on his fundamentals and made an impact.
Now Marcus Smart is 6'4, strong but not explosive or particularly fast.
Imagine a 7foot guy with Willies physical gifts would focus on the fundamentals like Smart does. Imagine the impact he could have on the floor.
That's what frustrates me, everytime I watch Willie casually float over the court. He doesn't focus enough on his fundamentals, even though that's all he needs to do to make a huge impact on the floor.
And we both watch enough basketball to know, that there may be many explanations for this, but very few excuses.
 
#69
Just heard him on Grant's show this afternoon saying he sees himself as a 20-10 guy, mentioned something about having a hard job to "replace" DMC. He might be a little delusional... maybe not. Maybe he's a 20-10 guy but I hope he doesn't kill us trying to prove it.
He might have been referring to the teams win total this upcoming year. If WCS is 13/8 with good D I would be beyond thrilled.
 
#70
There is no lynch mob. Players will get criticized and there will be disagreement over the level of valid criticism.
Willie approaches his 3rd season in the NBA. Criticism isn't about this years preseason games, but about his whole body of work with the Kings. That's because the issues Willie had in preseason aren't new.
I think nobody is proclaiming right now, that Willie is a lost cause, or that the Kings should give up on him, or that his issues can't be fixed. Instead pretty much everyone writes, that Willie has all the tools and all the talent he needs.
I wouldn’t say nobody :) (not in terms of giving up on him, but as a trade asset). Some said the summer before last, and were adamant by this past summer, that his value was at its high from their perspective, and that his issues were not too mutable. As we sit today I ‘think’ his value will not be higher, but I’m not in the FO, so I’m not privy to the offers that come in.
 
#73
Just got back from the game. If we come back from the 3 game trip, and WCS is playing the same way (not even 20-10, just a solid double-double guy busting ass on defense), I will admit I was wrong and say I'm sorry.

I felt WCS was a huge x-factor for us. If he can consistently give us 75% of what we saw tonight, I'm good.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#75
Just got back from the game. If we come back from the 3 game trip, and WCS is playing the same way (not even 20-10, just a solid double-double guy busting ass on defense), I will admit I was wrong and say I'm sorry.

I felt WCS was a huge x-factor for us. If he can consistently give us 75% of what we saw tonight, I'm good.
I thought Willie had a very good game. He played very aggressively and should have had at least 4 assists if someone could have just made a shot. He got caught ball watching a few times and allowed Capella to sneak off for a few easy baskets, but all of Capella's baskets wern't on Willie. Several times Harden drove into the lane and Willie left Capella to stop the ball. Unfortunately no one switched, which left Capella unguarded. All in all, a very good effort against a very good team. Lousy call at the end took away any last minute excitement we might have had. Bummer!
 
#76
I agree. Willie looked very good. As long as the effort on the boards and on D is there, nobody should have a problem with him looking for his offense. Had a couple of very athletic contested rebounds and could have been even more effective on offense, if our guards would already be able to find him for lob passes.
I don't care if he sometimes is trying a bit too much on offense. That's what a young player should do.
I think he could be a force on D, when he would be able to be a bit more physical. There were plenty of plays, where I asked myself, if Willie would have been able to contest the shot, if he would try 110% to close the gap. Of course on those plays there is always the risk of fouling the opponent (and to be fair also the risk of injury). But with him not in foul trouble it would have been the cherry on a very good performance, if he would have tried to reach a few of those attempts.

You have to pick your poison when facing the two man game of Harden and Capela. We chose to guard the 3pt line and to double down on Harden. Capela getting easy buckets is just the tradeoff and mostly not Willies fault.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#77
I agree. Willie looked very good. As long as the effort on the boards and on D is there, nobody should have a problem with him looking for his offense. Had a couple of very athletic contested rebounds and could have been even more effective on offense, if our guards would already be able to find him for lob passes.
I don't care if he sometimes is trying a bit too much on offense. That's what a young player should do.
I think he could be a force on D, when he would be able to be a bit more physical. There were plenty of plays, where I asked myself, if Willie would have been able to contest the shot, if he would try 110% to close the gap. Of course on those plays there is always the risk of fouling the opponent (and to be fair also the risk of injury). But with him not in foul trouble it would have been the cherry on a very good performance, if he would have tried to reach a few of those attempts.

You have to pick your poison when facing the two man game of Harden and Capela. We chose to guard the 3pt line and to double down on Harden. Capela getting easy buckets is just the tradeoff and mostly not Willies fault.
Yeah, Its a tough choice with Harden and Capela. However, Willie got caught ball watching a couple of times. He did back off Harden and stay home on a couple of his drives to the basket, and the result was a layup by Harden. So, as you said, pick your poison. At least he avoided the, "And one" on those occasions. What bugged me, was why weren't we doing to them, what they were doing to us? Willie can do what Capela was doing, but I saw very little attempt to run a similar play. Still early, so maybe down the road.

For those of you who think Capela is the next coming and love his game, remember he's starting his 4th season in the NBA, and has been playing with Harden for his entire NBA career, so they might have developed a bit of chemistry. Willie on the other hand is playing with PG's he's never played with before. So it might take a little time for that chemistry to develop. It's interesting to compare Willie's 2nd year in the league with Capela's. It's not a totally fair comparison because they're used differently, but I think it shows a natural progression.

Capela: 19 mpg - 7.0 ppg - 58.2% fgp - 37.9% ftp - 6.4 rpg - 1.2 bpg
WCS: 19 mpg - 8.1 ppg - 53.0% fgp - 66.9% ftp - 4.5 rpg - 0.6 bpg

Their stats are similar, with the major difference in their games being, Willie played away from the basket more, and his scoring came different areas of the floor. On the other hand, Capela's scoring came almost totally at the basket. If you look at his free throw percentage, you can see why. With Willie's expanded offense, all Willie needs to do is become more of an impact player on the defensive side. I think he has far more upside than Capela, or many other young C/PF's in the league. Of course none of that matters until he proves it. Capela took a nice step forward in his third year, so here's hoping that Willie does the same. Maybe even a bigger step.
 
#78
Just got back from the game. If we come back from the 3 game trip, and WCS is playing the same way (not even 20-10, just a solid double-double guy busting ass on defense), I will admit I was wrong and say I'm sorry.

I felt WCS was a huge x-factor for us. If he can consistently give us 75% of what we saw tonight, I'm good.
The waiter is ready to take your order at the Crow Cafe. The special is a wonderful Crow Souffle.
 
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#79
WCS should just see himself as a great garbage man. See the garbage, get the garbage, deposit the garbage. Garbage men have a very productive role in our society. What would we do without them?
 
#80
Yeah, Its a tough choice with Harden and Capela. However, Willie got caught ball watching a couple of times. He did back off Harden and stay home on a couple of his drives to the basket, and the result was a layup by Harden. So, as you said, pick your poison. At least he avoided the, "And one" on those occasions. What bugged me, was why weren't we doing to them, what they were doing to us? Willie can do what Capela was doing, but I saw very little attempt to run a similar play. Still early, so maybe down the road.

For those of you who think Capela is the next coming and love his game, remember he's starting his 4th season in the NBA, and has been playing with Harden for his entire NBA career, so they might have developed a bit of chemistry. Willie on the other hand is playing with PG's he's never played with before. So it might take a little time for that chemistry to develop. It's interesting to compare Willie's 2nd year in the league with Capela's. It's not a totally fair comparison because they're used differently, but I think it shows a natural progression.

Capela: 19 mpg - 7.0 ppg - 58.2% fgp - 37.9% ftp - 6.4 rpg - 1.2 bpg
WCS: 19 mpg - 8.1 ppg - 53.0% fgp - 66.9% ftp - 4.5 rpg - 0.6 bpg

Their stats are similar, with the major difference in their games being, Willie played away from the basket more, and his scoring came different areas of the floor. On the other hand, Capela's scoring came almost totally at the basket. If you look at his free throw percentage, you can see why. With Willie's expanded offense, all Willie needs to do is become more of an impact player on the defensive side. I think he has far more upside than Capela, or many other young C/PF's in the league. Of course none of that matters until he proves it. Capela took a nice step forward in his third year, so here's hoping that Willie does the same. Maybe even a bigger step.
I would have liked to have seen at least one time WCS stay with Capela and bat the ball away from one of those lobs. If Harden went in and made the layup instead, so be it; at least he expends a few extra calories, more than just lobbing the ball up in the air for an uncontested dunk.

Nene and Capela (2x) drove WCS to the basket for easy baskets. One on one. No switching, just one on one. Easy peezy. It's those kind of plays by WCS that make me scratch my head.
 
#83
I think we all just need to stop believing in him. Its what seems to spark him. The other night was a fluke game to prove us wrong. Bet he can't do it for a whole month.
 
#84
Just heard him on Grant's show this afternoon saying he sees himself as a 20-10 guy, mentioned something about having a hard job to "replace" DMC. He might be a little delusional... maybe not. Maybe he's a 20-10 guy but I hope he doesn't kill us trying to prove it.
Nobody becomes great without being delusional first.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#85
Nobody becomes great without being delusional first.
I would add that no one ever became great without thinking they could be great. No one became great without working to become great. If your a player, and you want to settle for being mediocre, then I don't want you on my team. The biggest obstacle every great person had to overcome is the negative opinions of people that told him or her they couldn't accomplish something. It comes down to whether you want to decide your path or you want to let someone else decide your path.

Personally, if I'm going to fail, I'd want to fail chasing my dream, not someone else's dream. My dream may well turn out to be delusional, but at least I'll know, instead of sitting somewhere at age 65 wondering about what might have been. Am I still writing about Willie? :rolleyes:
 
#86
I would add that no one ever became great without thinking they could be great. No one became great without working to become great. If your a player, and you want to settle for being mediocre, then I don't want you on my team. The biggest obstacle every great person had to overcome is the negative opinions of people that told him or her they couldn't accomplish something. It comes down to whether you want to decide your path or you want to let someone else decide your path.

Personally, if I'm going to fail, I'd want to fail chasing my dream, not someone else's dream. My dream may well turn out to be delusional, but at least I'll know, instead of sitting somewhere at age 65 wondering about what might have been. Am I still writing about Willie? :rolleyes:
This.
 
#87
Put it in perspective. Cousins came to town and laid down 41/20 against the Kings.
Willie was 12/2. There is plenty of room for improvement. Two rebounds is pathetic. He was outrebounded by the Kings' guards.
 
#88
The guy who wrote the post game report on StR had the nerve to say that Willie had a good game the other night. Not sure what he was watching.

What I watched was Cousins missing a hook shot. The ball came right to Willie and Willie grabbed the rebound. Then Cousins just reached over, pulled the ball out of his hands and went up and scored with it. That play was basically a microcosm of his matchup against Cousins. One guy is a bull and the other just kind of flutters around, taking what he can get.
 
#89
Put it in perspective. Cousins came to town and laid down 41/20 against the Kings.
Willie was 12/2. There is plenty of room for improvement. Two rebounds is pathetic. He was outrebounded by the Kings' guards.
This is not "In perspective". WCS is in year 3 meaning he is still nowhere near a finished product vs Imo the best big in the league. Now don't get confused with me thinking WCS is something that he's not. He's a role player athletic big but I also don't want to put a glass ceiling on him we want to get the most out of him so he's not a one dimensional player.