[Game] [VSL Game 1] Kings vs Magic, 7/10/2025 4:30 Pacific 7:30 Eastern (NBATV)

[NiNetNiNe]

I don’t know where this notion that you have to be 6’8” to be a SF came from; hell, the two teams in the finals were very guard heavy. Clifford is right b
there at the height of the OKC and Pacers SFs.

He wouldn’t even be starting anyway, ideally, Keegan would be the SF and one would hope Maxine can play next to Sabonis eventually. Cliffords versatility coming off the bench and being able to play 1-3 helps a ton. So he could theoretically play PG on offense, guard up on defense, and have Ellis guard the guards. Monk can then be put on weakest player while also providing some PG duties.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

I don’t know where this notion that you have to be 6’8” to be a SF came from; hell, the two teams in the finals were very guard heavy. Clifford is right b
there at the height of the OKC and Pacers SFs.

He wouldn’t even be starting anyway, ideally, Keegan would be the SF and one would hope Maxine can play next to Sabonis eventually. Cliffords versatility coming off the bench and being able to play 1-3 helps a ton. So he could theoretically play PG on offense, guard up on defense, and have Ellis guard the guards. Monk can then be put on weakest player while also providing some PG duties.

Maxine shouldn’t play next to Sabonis he needs to be the center to take advantage of his skill set

 

[SacTownKid]

Is Summer League lesser talent than the G-League? I actually would have thought the opposite but maybe I’m wrong?

For instance, you have guys like Cooper Flagg, Tristan Da Silva, Jace Richardson, DaRon Holmes, Dalton Knecht, Terrence Shannon Jr, Rob Dillingham, Nikola Topic, Ajay Mitchell, Nique Clifford, Maxime Raynaud, Devin Carter, etc. playing in the summer league when all of these guys are going to be on NBA rosters this year (not playing in the G-League).

I don’t know enough about the entire player composition of SL vs. G-League to have a definitive take, but I do know that there are players that play in the SL that will be on a NBA roster this season and not playing in the G-League. That makes me think SL has more talent.

Then on top of it having more talent, you add in the fact that these guys have 2-3 practices to get familiar with each other and you can get a lot of ugly, chaotic basketball (especially when you’re trying to learn/play PG for the first time in your life)

You're definitely right, at the top end it's more talented but every year we see more and more names drop out early. The main difference is the G league is more organized whereas the summer league is the best a coach can do to organize slop. Some teams just click, some players just click, history shows if you're looking for pure productivity or talent this isn't the place. Look at the list of summer league MVP's and outside of back in the day when Blake, Dame, and Wall won it back to back to back it isn't exactly star studded. Shooters and pure scorers tend to look the best along with pure hustle types. Summer league for almost anyone else is about improving on what you can't do and showing what you can.

 

[NiNetNiNe]

Maxine shouldn’t play next to Sabonis he needs to be the center to take advantage of his skill set

They can both play, nothing wrong with having two bigs that can do everything. Sabonis can guard the centers since he can’t be pushed around, and Maxine can guard the perimeter like he was in the SL game. It would be similar to Vlade and Webber, two intelligent biga that can do everything.

 

[SacTownKid]

I mean yes and no.

Carter’s likely ceiling is a Caruso, Smart, Hart, DiVincenzo, etc. type. Those types aren’t known for generating offense. They are known for taking advantage of advantageous offensive situations usually caused by other offensive stars/engines. They’re also known for being good rebounders, good on-ball defenders, good team defenders, good decision makers, respectable shooters (some more than others), etc.

We’re asking Carter to play PG and be the offensive engine of this SL team….when he’s reportedly never played PG before in his life…after only being able to practice with this team 2-3 times. Maybe if he was touted as a very talented offensive player, it wouldn’t matter that much, but that’s not what Carter is touted as. Coming out of college he was touted as someone who could be an elite defender, elite rebounder, respectable shooter, respectable secondary ballhandler, connective passer/smart decision maker.

That is a role player skillset. High level role player but role player nonetheless. Now there was speculation about his offensive potential due to his combination of length, strength, athleticism, & ability to get to the FT line, but he needed to prove his shot was for real (so far, he hasn’t shown that’s the case in the NBA) and work on his handle and finishing if he wanted to have a shot at being a very good offensive player. Like I said, that seemed like a long shot considering the amount of skills he’d need to develop & elevate, but he at least had the physical attributes to help him get there if he could put it all together.

I think if Carter doesn't become a productive assist getter and his scoring is decent then the comp I see is Avery Bradley. His top ceiling with his tools is as high as it gets, but this is still about figuring out what he is and what team will allow him to develop or show it if it does. There were also some really bad non calls on Carter yesterday. That was a 10 free throw game if any.

 

[The_Jamal]

Maxine shouldn’t play next to Sabonis he needs to be the center to take advantage of his skill set

Potentially, but theres crazy value in a true 4/5 stretch big. If he can stay on big wings defensively AND be able to be a stretch 5 in different sets.

I dont see a problem with him and Domas on offense at all.

 

[SacTownKid]

But, which is why we need to give him time to ACTUALLY develop. Don't quit on him 500 minutes into his career because the instant results aren't there. And honestly, he already showed the defensive impact last year. Kings were like 3 points better defensively with him on the floor. Tiny sample of course. I think if you ran him 20-25 minutes in the cason Wallace, Caruso role, you'd see great results from game 1.

I'd like to explore what his ceiling as a lead ball handler can be though. Fully vet if he can be that jrue Holiday ceiling type

Precisely. With the Kings in the "gap" they are, anyone on a rookie contract should be a thing they don't want to move unless it's for a good return. Carter is a boom/bust type with not really a ton of bust potential because his defense will get him on some pro team, but the Kings thinking they can turn over another lottery pick immediately and get value is their problem. The Kings NEVER see the long term picture and repeatedly take more steps back than forward in the end trying to leap up to the top from middle rather than climbing the ladder like every other team that doesn't suck perpetually.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I agree with this answer. It's not really the talent level of Summer League that "brings it down". Remember, until a few years ago they were running a "G-League All-Stars" team at Summer League and that squad didn't really ever shine all that much.

You see more NBA-*ready* talent at Summer League than you do in the G-League, but the teams have been thrown together recently and had only a handful of practices before they're sent out there to play. And a lot of it is showcase for the up-and-comings, don't doubt that. When you've got a G-League team that is coached together for a year and built more closely around the concepts and schemes that the big squad is running, the "talent" level may be lower, but the technical execution is much better. Thriving in the G-League for something like a year (see: Keon Ellis) is a real good indicator that you've got something going. One game in Summer League is not really enough - or the right situation - to draw a big conclusion from.

Still, I did like what I saw from our two rooks in Game 1!

The consensus seems to be that you can't tell if a player will be good from summer league, but you can tell if a player will be bad.

This probably holds true for G-League as well, but at least in G-League you can evaluate how a player operates within a system/scheme whereas even if a summer league team is well coached you are going to have free lancers going into business for themselves hoping to secure a job with 29 other teams plus any Euro scouts.

I guess because I have never been to a summer league, I really don't recall the G-League All-Stars playing there! Did the Kings ever play them?

 

[Rain man]

No I’m basing it on the fact he is extremely undersized for a 3 and most (not all as Josh Hart proves) people his size struggle doing it night in and night out.

I also found it interesting our GM is talking about him as a back-up PG.

And yet at the same time, he spent the entire game guarding a pretty big 3/4 wing. Time will tell.

By the way, my initial comment was just a playful poke at you. You are actually a good sport about things. It isn't easy to be the contrarian on a message board filled with overly optimistic/hopeful fans, and you make an easy target for people who want to have a common enemy. I appreciate your perspective. This place would be an echo chamber without it.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Potentially, but theres crazy value in a true 4/5 stretch big. If he can stay on big wings defensively AND be able to be a stretch 5 in different sets.

I dont see a problem with him and Domas on offense at all.

Plus lets not forget all the people who say Domas is really a 4, well then Domas is your 4 and Maxime is your 5, in this hypothetical twin towers lineup.

Both guys would seemingly best pair with a "big nasty" type but if Maxime is to blossom into a more than 12mpg player he's probably going to have to be able to share court time with Domas.

 

[The_Jamal]

The consensus seems to be that you can't tell if a player will be good from summer league, but you can tell if a player will be bad.

This probably holds true for G-League as well, but at least in G-League you can evaluate how a player operates within a system/scheme whereas even if a summer league team is well coached you are going to have free lancers going into business for themselves hoping to secure a job with 29 other teams plus any Euro scouts.

I guess because I have never been to a summer league, I really don't recall the G-League All-Stars playing there! Did the Kings ever play them?

Yeah, to me, thats sort of silly. So if Cooper flagg keeps struggling, is he bad?

To me, I've landed on SL just being a snap shot of where these guys game are. That they still have to go prove when the games actually count.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I guess because I have never been to a summer league, I really don't recall the G-League All-Stars playing there! Did the Kings ever play them?

I don't specifically recall but my gut says "yes".

 

[Joshyjosh31]

They can both play, nothing wrong with having two bigs that can do everything. Sabonis can guard the centers since he can’t be pushed around, and Maxine can guard the perimeter like he was in the SL game. It would be similar to Vlade and Webber, two intelligent biga that can do everything.

The fowards he’d be defending in the regular season are night and day from summer league unless we’re talking bout backups and not him starting. His advantage would be spreading the floor at center and beating close outs from centers that advantage isn’t really there at PF.

Potentially, but theres crazy value in a true 4/5 stretch big. If he can stay on big wings defensively AND be able to be a stretch 5 in different sets.

I dont see a problem with him and Domas on offense at all.

It’s defense that would be the problem starting wise, I’m sure they can share the floor for a while but rather not start both even if it’s the season after this one. Look at OKC both bigs are better defenders and Chet is all world defense and they had to adjust and play one big in the playoffs

 

[twslam07]

But, which is why we need to give him time to ACTUALLY develop. Don't quit on him 500 minutes into his career because the instant results aren't there. And honestly, he already showed the defensive impact last year. Kings were like 3 points better defensively with him on the floor. Tiny sample of course. I think if you ran him 20-25 minutes in the cason Wallace, Caruso role, you'd see great results from game 1.

I'd like to explore what his ceiling as a lead ball handler can be though. Fully vet if he can be that jrue Holiday ceiling type

Well I actually said to keep him in this PG role the entirety of the SL so I think we’re in agreement

 

[sactowndog]

And yet at the same time, he spent the entire game guarding a pretty big 3/4 wing. Time will tell.

By the way, my initial comment was just a playful poke at you. You are actually a good sport about things. It isn't easy to be the contrarian on a message board filled with overly optimistic/hopeful fans, and you make an easy target for people who want to have a common enemy. I appreciate your perspective. This place would be an echo chamber without it.

Thank you. I appreciate the kind words.

And some of the playful barbs in my direction are well deserved. My comment earlier about “proving people wrong” was said in the same vein. If we as Kings fans can’t give each other good spirited ribbings then the seasons will be even longer than they seem.

 

[TaxMan]

To be clear, I'm not looking to just dump Carter if he doesn't shine in SL. I just personally need to see more before I get too excited about him at this point. At his size, he needs to be able to either play a little point and/or be a knock down three point shooter. Anything less, and he's a high end defensive role player that probably at best becomes a sought after journeyman bench guy in his career. There is definitely value in that, but I doubt he'd be a lifelong King. I wouldn't dump him, but wouldn't have a problem putting him in a deal for Kuminga.

 

[SacTownKid]

Yeah, to me, thats sort of silly. So if Cooper flagg keeps struggling, is he bad?

To me, I've landed on SL just being a snap shot of where these guys game are. That they still have to go prove when the games actually count.

Exactly. Also, summer league is also the place to FAIL. Do the things that make a player uncomfortable and see how they react. This is the place to test out all that work a player has supposedly been doing in a situation that in the end doesn't harm anyone or mean anything. It would be nice to win another summer league title though, haha. Summer league however is not the place to build trade value. Do that and you're probably just undercutting everyone else's development anyway.

 

[sactowndog]

I don’t know where this notion that you have to be 6’8” to be a SF came from; hell, the two teams in the finals were very guard heavy. Clifford is right b
there at the height of the OKC and Pacers SFs.

He wouldn’t even be starting anyway, ideally, Keegan would be the SF and one would hope Maxine can play next to Sabonis eventually. Cliffords versatility coming off the bench and being able to play 1-3 helps a ton. So he could theoretically play PG on offense, guard up on defense, and have Ellis guard the guards. Monk can then be put on weakest player while also providing some PG duties.

I think you need to be careful going off of height. Those players are pretty long. Better to use Wingspan and Standing reach.

Nesmith has no standing reach reported but has a 6’ 10” wingspan versus 6’8” for Clifford.

Jalen Williams is even longer with a 7’ 2” wingspan (same as Raynaud) and a 8’ 9” standing reach versus 8’6.5 for Clifford.

 

[sactowndog]

Maxine shouldn’t play next to Sabonis he needs to be the center to take advantage of his skill set

Why are you certain he cannot be a stretch 4? From what I have seen Markannan seems to be a reasonable comp. His defensive technique appears to be lacking but I’m guessing he gets more than a few pointers from the staff.

 

[sactowndog]

The consensus seems to be that you can't tell if a player will be good from summer league, but you can tell if a player will be bad.

This probably holds true for G-League as well, but at least in G-League you can evaluate how a player operates within a system/scheme whereas even if a summer league team is well coached you are going to have free lancers going into business for themselves hoping to secure a job with 29 other teams plus any Euro scouts.

I guess because I have never been to a summer league, I really don't recall the G-League All-Stars playing there! Did the Kings ever play them?

Too bad you missed out on summer league in the 80’s -90’s. I remember walking into the Loyola Marymount Gym to watch Danny Manning and Charles Smith play. No cost. Maybe 40 hard core fans in the gym. Amazing what it has become.

 

[sactowndog]

I don’t value SL as much as you do in this regard. For starters, these teams are hacked together a lot of the time and they have very little time to practice, get familiar with each other, etc. The other component is that teams sometimes use SL to experiment (e.g., putting Carter at PG, playing Adebayo at PG, etc.).

I actually think someone’s G-League play is more predictable of future success than their SL play. I feel like there is more structure in the games being played in the G-League vs. SL can sometimes be a glorified pickup game.

And what Carter has going for him is that he actually posted very impressive per 36 min stats in the 5 games he played in the G-League…

.696 TS%
18.7 FGA
.517 FG%
8.4 2PA
.675 2P%
10.3 3PA
.388 3P%
3.2 FTA
.733 FT%
28.0 PTS
9.9 REB
5.7 AST
2.1 STL
1.1 BLK
4.0 TO
1.1 PF

And they had Mason Jones playing the PG role next to Carter for those games if I’m not mistaken (vs. they’re having Carter play the PG role during SL).

I’m worried about Carter. I don’t see time for him at the 2. He needs to be able to transition to the point to stick long term in the NBA. He didn’t seem to see the floor extremely well in that game. Maybe he gets better. We can hope because I love his on ball defense.

 

[twslam07]

I’m worried about Carter. I don’t see time for him at the 2. He needs to be able to transition to the point to stick long term in the NBA. He didn’t seem to see the floor extremely well in that game. Maybe he gets better. We can hope because I love his on ball defense.

I very much disagree with the bolded.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I’m worried about Carter. I don’t see time for him at the 2. He needs to be able to transition to the point to stick long term in the NBA. He didn’t seem to see the floor extremely well in that game. Maybe he gets better. We can hope because I love his on ball defense.

Our best short term situation is if we get rid of 2 of Monk/DDR/LaVine and have Keon with the survivor at the bulk of the 2 minutes so Carter needs to be able to cover the 1 if he is to be a 10mpg+ player (I guess if somehow Monk was sole survivor it might be different?).

There's also no way I would be happy keeping Carter over Keon at this point, even knowing we have to extend Keon while we get three years of "cheap" Carter.

We're essentially dead in the water until we break up those three, unless suddenly they are playing high level defense which I don't see happening.


I think its evident why we brought Dennis here. If we get more picks next year hopefully a PG is on the menu along with a big wing.

 

[Rain man]

Why are you certain he cannot be a stretch 4? From what I have seen Markannan seems to be a reasonable comp. His defensive technique appears to be lacking but I’m guessing he gets more than a few pointers from the staff.

Any minutes you can get him to credibly play stretch 4 are minutes where we are solving some of our significant size challenges. Being able to get minutes of a Domas-Maxime-Keegan frontline would be huge (quite literally).

 

[Caccia]

Maxine shouldn’t play next to Sabonis; he needs to be the center to take advantage of his skill set.

I would say it's too early to tell. We can hope that Coach Christie will at least experiment with different combinations & rotations. If, for example, Reynaud takes the place of Trey Lyles in the rotation, he would sometimes play the four and sometimes play the five. That is what I anticipate right now.

 

[sactowndog]

I very much disagree with the bolded.

Okay. Carter is an odd one on length. He is built very much like Harrison Barnes with abnormally wide shoulders.

So his wingspan is great at 6’ 8.75” which is good size even for a 2 guard.

But his standing reach is 8’ 2” which is the bottom 10 of all players in the last 2 combines combined. I’m not talking drafted players, I’m talking all players at the combine.

Very few players have such a build.

 

[Rain man]

I would say it's too early to tell. We can hope that Coach Christie will at least experiment with different combinations & rotations. If, for example, Reynaud takes the place of Trey Lyles in the rotation, he would sometimes play the four and sometimes play the five. That is what I anticipate right now.

Honestly, having Raynaud replace Lyles is the way good teams are built in the current era. Almost all of your money should be spent on your top 6-7 guys. You generally want your 8-9 man rotation to be 3 or so high-priced max and near max stars, 2-3 quality veteran role players, and 2-3 quality rookie deal role players. The rest of the roster should be rookie deal and minimum guys making up the rest. Your start to screw things up when you have fewer rookie deal and minimum guys occupying your 8-15 spots. Paying Lyles $8M and JV $10M are the things that kill your cap.

On the Kings, your big money stars are Domas, Lavine, and Demar. The problem is that this group, as whole, is simply not good enough and doesn't seem to fit well together. But under the model above, they are the "stars."

Your quality veteran role players are Keegan (once he is extended), Schroeder, and Monk. You can argue their quality, and also whether two of your veteran role players should be small guards, but they are what they are.

Your rookie level role players are Keon, Clifford, Carter, Raynaud, I. Jones, Crawford. You can't have enough of these guys because not everyone is going to pan out, but you want as many arrows in your quiver in this group, and hope that 3 of them can be rotation worthy in any given year.

The rest should be minimum level vets- Eubanks, TD, etc...

So while we need better stars, and probably need more quality and size in the veteran (high paid) role player tier, it seems like Perry at least understands the value of adding numerous cost controlled young guys to fight for the 7-10 spots in the rotation, instead of paying Lyles and JV $18M per year to play a combined 20 minutes per game.

 

[gunks]

I don't care about 1 SL game because Carter looked good in NBA minutes!

Well, good at some things.... The shooting was crap but the defense, rebounding, ability to get in the paint, intangibles and DAWG level looked to be elite. The stuff he did on that end of the floor justifies giving him time to hopefully find his shot.

He will probably always be a backup, and he'll probably get injured a lot too because he plays like a WWE heel, but if the shooting comes around that's a valuable player.

 

[Kingster]

Regarding Carter, the offensive sputtering did not surprise so much. What disturbed me in this game was the fact he consistently went under screens and was not a force on defense. Why did he do that? And why didn't the Kings' coaching staff get on his ass immediately to stop him from doing it? The premise of his value is his defense. If he can't be a force on defense, then you're talking true bust potential. Is his shoulder, which was massively taped up, still bothering him to the point he cannot be a physical defender? This is troubling to me. I want to see the remainder of his SL games with him pestering ball handlers and disrupting the opposing offense by defending over screens, not passively dropping under them.

 

[Jdbraver137]

Carter just needs to go back to his normal game. I hate forcing players into unnatural roles