Use our cap space with a trade?

[HighTopKicks]

You're right, I flubbed on that one. The TPE is counted against the cap unless it is renounced. So we really have practically no cap space to absorb salary.

As I read the CBA on Coon's, we get the MLE @ $5.5M, Bi-Annual Exemption @ $2M, and the Williams TPE at $3.4M. The MLE & Bi are only good for FA's, and the TPE is only good for trades.

By adding them to our base salary after the selection of our 1st rounders, would put our salary over the cap at about $61M. ( $50M+$11M) As I understand the contract, if after adding the exemptions to our salary we were still under the salary cap, we would lose all the exemptions. So, if our base salary was at $40M instead of $50M we wouldn't need or get any exemptions. And, the TPE's would automaticly be lost as well.

Also, if any time during the year the total of our actual salary + our exemptions were to total less than the salary cap we would lose the exemptions then also. Therefore, if we were to renounce our MLE & Bi exemptions, our $50M salary + the TPE $3.4M would be under the salary cap & we would lose the TPE.

So, we can renounce all the exemptions and have $7M in cap space. Or, keep the exemptions and lose all the cap space. Since I don't know what the actual salary cap will be, or the value of the MLE & Bi exemptions, or the actual team salary after the draft selections, I don't know what the actual total of the salary + MLE +Bi will be. But, if the total were to be less than the salary cap, renouncing the TPE might lose us all the exemptions also.

Of course, we would have to renounce all of our expiring contract, else their cap holds would make the topic a mute point. If we were to resign any players, the available cap space would be less than the MLE, so there would be no need to renounce anything. It all depends on whether the Maloofs want to go over or stay under the salary cap.

 

[MANoICE]

How about this...

If we get the #1 pick and are set to draft griffin:

Renounce the trade exemptions.

Send Noch, JT and #23 or #31 pick (not both) to Utah for AK-47 & #20.

This would eat most of our cap space, but AK-47 only has 2 years instad of Noch's 4. We have a better chance to pick up one of the PG's that slip (Maynor, Flynn, Teague or Holliday) @ #20 and have more freedom to get another PG or (preferably) a big at #23 or #31.

We get a strong defender at the SF position that can rebound and get steals. I believe he would florish in an uptempo system. Maybe he can even get his outside stroke back. Plus Utah is likely to loose one of their PF's this year due to the luxury tax, so this salary reduction would help. The lower pick would help with salary too. They have been looking to move this guy for at least a year and I doubt the could get a better deal than this. We might not even need to include our pick at all.

Day Dream Lineup:

PG - Teague, Beno
SG - Martin, Garcia, Vet. Min. FA?
SF - AK-47, Garcia, Greene
PF - Griffin, Thomas (Until the trade deadline deal), Vet. Min. FA?, Rookie Big
C - Hawes, Rookie Big

Thoughts? Please be gentle. I'm a rookie.

 

[Solano25]

If we get the #1 pick and are set to draft griffin:

Renounce the trade exemptions.

Send Noch, JT and #23 or #31 pick (not both) to Utah for AK-47 & #20.

I would lean towards no on this just because I think AK-47 has been inconsistent over the years and I think JT could end up being quite a bit better (albeit at a different position) and I like Noch and see his long-term contract as a good thing, not bad. I want him here that long. I can see the positives of AK-47, though. He has occassionally been a NBA defensive POY candidate and we could use as much defense as we can get.

As for the PG thing, I don't think #20 does much more for us than #23. I think Teague will likely be gone before then anyway and he and the others potentially available (Mills, Lawson, Maynor, Flynn) would not be immediate answers at PG anyway. Long term, you never know who will pan out, but short term, I think only Rubio could help us there.

I also think there is some possibility that Beno may still be able to develop into a better and more consistent PG and would rather not permanently throw him out of the future plans. (BTW, I know I'm probably the only one who thinks that at this point, but I would like to see him start for another year, and, yes, I know that makes me certifiable ).

 

[Solano25]

As I read the CBA on Coon's, we get the MLE @ $5.5M, Bi-Annual Exemption @ $2M, and the Williams TPE at $3.4M. The MLE & Bi are only good for FA's, and the TPE is only good for trades.

By adding them to our base salary after the selection of our 1st rounders, would put our salary over the cap at about $61M. ( $50M+$11M) As I understand the contract, if after adding the exemptions to our salary we were still under the salary cap, we would lose all the exemptions. So, if our base salary was at $40M instead of $50M we wouldn't need or get any exemptions. And, the TPE's would automaticly be lost as well.

Also, if any time during the year the total of our actual salary + our exemptions were to total less than the salary cap we would lose the exemptions then also. Therefore, if we were to renounce our MLE & Bi exemptions, our $50M salary + the TPE $3.4M would be under the salary cap & we would lose the TPE.

So, we can renounce all the exemptions and have $7M in cap space. Or, keep the exemptions and lose all the cap space. Since I don't know what the actual salary cap will be, or the value of the MLE & Bi exemptions, or the actual team salary after the draft selections, I don't know what the actual total of the salary + MLE +Bi will be. But, if the total were to be less than the salary cap, renouncing the TPE might lose us all the exemptions also.

Of course, we would have to renounce all of our expiring contract, else their cap holds would make the topic a mute point. If we were to resign any players, the available cap space would be less than the MLE, so there would be no need to renounce anything. It all depends on whether the Maloofs want to go over or stay under the salary cap.

Wow, I have a headache after reading all that, but it does all make sense, I think. So, it sounds like we could do a trade where the incoming salary exceeds outgoing salary by 3.4 mil using the TPE (say KT (8.5 mil next year) for someone or some collection of players making 11.9 mil for example) and still sign someone to the MLE? Does one need to happen before the other can happen?

Then again, the Maloofs probably will want to cut spending a bit this year, so maybe that would be too much. Either way, though, our cap space/exemptions and expirings are some of our best trade assets.

 

[HighTopKicks]

Wow, I have a headache after reading all that, but it does all make sense, I think. So, it sounds like we could do a trade where the incoming salary exceeds outgoing salary by 3.4 mil using the TPE (say KT (8.5 mil next year) for someone or some collection of players making 11.9 mil for example) and still sign someone to the MLE? Does one need to happen before the other can happen?

Then again, the Maloofs probably will want to cut spending a bit this year, so maybe that would be too much. Either way, though, our cap space/exemptions and expirings are some of our best trade assets.

No, exemption can't be combined.

The exemption allows you to trade even though you are over the salary cap. But, the trade must be less than the exemption. So,you can trade a draft pick for another teams higher draft plus one of their players as long as the value of the players contract is less then the TPE. But, if the Maloofs decide not to spend more than the salary cap all the exemptions are useless.

The MLE is not for trades only FA signings, and allows a team to spend a max of $5.5M over the salary cap. You can spend less but not more. You can sign 1player or multi players as long as the total doesn't go over the $5.5M max.

So, if we're at $50M in salary, the MLE & TPE added puts us over the salary cap. So, the league treats us like we're over the cap even though we're not. We can renounce them and do whatever we want with our $7M in cap space (trades or FA). Or, we can sign FA's up to the total salary of $5.5M. And, trade for up to the value of the TPE $3.4M. So, with the cap money we can sign contracts totaling $7M, but with the exemptions we can sign contracts totaling $8.9M because the exemptions allow you to spend more then the salary cap.

 

[bajaden]

No, exemption can't be combined.

The exemption allows you to trade even though you are over the salary cap. But, the trade must be less than the exemption. So,you can trade a draft pick for another teams higher draft plus one of their players as long as the value of the players contract is less then the TPE. But, if the Maloofs decide not to spend more than the salary cap all the exemptions are useless.

The MLE is not for trades only FA signings, and allows a team to spend a max of $5.5M over the salary cap. You can spend less but not more. You can sign 1player or multi players as long as the total doesn't go over the $5.5M max.

So, if we're at $50M in salary, the MLE & TPE added puts us over the salary cap. So, the league treats us like we're over the cap even though we're not. We can renounce them and do whatever we want with our $7M in cap space (trades or FA). Or, we can sign FA's up to the total salary of $5.5M. And, trade for up to the value of the TPE $3.4M. So, with the cap money we can sign contracts totaling $7M, but with the exemptions we can sign contracts totaling $8.9M because the exemptions allow you to spend more then the salary cap.

Sounds pretty accurate to me. The major difference between the two paths being that although you have a total of 8.9 mil by totaling the TPE's, you can't combine them for one player. Whereas you can use the entire 7 mil for one player when using cap space. Plus, as I understand it, you can't combine an outgoing players salary with a TPE, but you could combine the 7 mil of cap space with and ougoing player to bring back a player of greater value.

 

[HighTopKicks]

Sounds pretty accurate to me. The major difference between the two paths being that although you have a total of 8.9 mil by totaling the TPE's, you can't combine them for one player. Whereas you can use the entire 7 mil for one player when using cap space. Plus, as I understand it, you can't combine an outgoing players salary with a TPE, but you could combine the 7 mil of cap space with and ougoing player to bring back a player of greater value.

Yes You are correct about combining any exemptions. And, you can combine a player with all your cap space to trade for another player. As long as the contract of the player your receiving isn't greater than the contract of the player your trading + your cap space. Otherwise, you would be going over the salary cap and you can't do that without an exemption. So, therefore the 125% +100K rule does not apply.

 

[MANoICE]

Okay, How about this one?

I know this one is WAY out of left field and probably not the right direction for the future, but it could get interesting. I anticipate getting blasted for this, but hear me out.

Kings send NJ: K. Thomas, Garcia, #23 pick & our cap Space

NJ Sends Kings: V. Carter & #11 Pick.

They have been looking to dump VC since at least last year and want as much possible cap room for 2010. KT and our cap space gives them about 12 mil. more $$. Also, the later pick will be making less $$ than the #11 in 2010 cap numbers.

Moving up to # 11 Gives the kings the options to get the PG they want (if they get #1 and take Griffin.)

So...

PG - Beno, Maynor or Teague
SG - Martin, #31 Pick or FA
SF - VC, Noch (if he is not traded in another deal by then too), Greene
PF - Griffin, Thompson, #31 pick or FA
C - Hawes, Thompson

If they are going up tempo, this could be amazing. And since Kevin and VC both seem to not have "the man" status in them, they could share the scoring load. I also hope that Cathes is available @ #31 to help out at PG/SG and that a vet. big can be picked up to teach the youngsters some toughness. At least we might get some national attention again.

 

[dj3ptspecialist44]

For some reason I really like that trade and I know we won't be getting the human highlight reel Vince Carter, but he still has a lot of game left in him and is more of a crafty scorer. I think him and K-mart can get their points no matter what. Also it makes our line up that much more athletic and to have another top talent at 11 that's scary.

 

[HighTopKicks]

I know this one is WAY out of left field and probably not the right direction for the future, but it could get interesting. I anticipate getting blasted for this, but hear me out.

Kings send NJ: K. Thomas, Garcia, #23 pick & our cap Space

NJ Sends Kings: V. Carter & #11 Pick.

They have been looking to dump VC since at least last year and want as much possible cap room for 2010. KT and our cap space gives them about 12 mil. more $$. Also, the later pick will be making less $$ than the #11 in 2010 cap numbers.

Moving up to # 11 Gives the kings the options to get the PG they want (if they get #1 and take Griffin.)

So...

PG - Beno, Maynor or Teague
SG - Martin, #31 Pick or FA
SF - VC, Noch (if he is not traded in another deal by then too), Greene
PF - Griffin, Thompson, #31 pick or FA
C - Hawes, Thompson

If they are going up tempo, this could be amazing. And since Kevin and VC both seem to not have "the man" status in them, they could share the scoring load. I also hope that Cathes is available @ #31 to help out at PG/SG and that a vet. big can be picked up to teach the youngsters some toughness. At least we might get some national attention again.

Assuming NJ doesn't move up in the draft, why would they do that? Carter is owed $16M & KT & Cisco are owed $14M, so they'd be moving down 12 spots just to save $2-3M. Yea, they save $11M in 2010, but Cisco has 5 yrs left at almost $6M each. So, the total is $30M for Cisco & $9 for KT, while Carter is only owed $33M, so in the end it will cost them $6M to move down. They might do it for KT only.

It looks like a great deal for us, though. By the way, in your roster, what happened to our #1 pick?

Finally, the Kings are currently over the salary cap. The expiring contracts won't come off the books until July 8th. Therefore no trades are possible unless an exemption is used. We have a Traded Player Exemption from the Sheldon Williams deal worth $3.4M. Since the draft occurs before July 8th, the only way we can trade or aquire players is if their total contracts are no more than $3.4M. So, I doubt if NJ would give up a #11 for $3M, since their in no danger of going over the Luxury Tax.

 

[Gary]

OK I won't bash this trade because it's kind of legit for a team cutting costs... When a team does cut costs you always see ridiculous trades happen.. The part I don't like is Barbosa.. Dude is not a PG.. Maybe has PG size, but he's definitely not a PG.

How about Amare for KT expiring, Thompson, and out top pick (if it is not #1 or #2).. That might net him if Phoenix REALLY wants to get rid of him. We all know they want Thompson.

 

[MANoICE]

Assuming NJ doesn't move up in the draft, why would they do that? Carter is owed $16M & KT & Cisco are owed $14M, so they'd be moving down 12 spots just to save $2-3M. Yea, they save $11M in 2010, but Cisco has 5 yrs left at almost $6M each. So, the total is $30M for Cisco & $9 for KT, while Carter is only owed $33M, so in the end it will cost them $6M to move down. They might do it for KT only.

It looks like a great deal for us, though. By the way, in your roster, what happened to our #1 pick?

Finally, the Kings are currently over the salary cap. The expiring contracts won't come off the books until July 8th. Therefore no trades are possible unless an exemption is used. We have a Traded Player Exemption from the Sheldon Williams deal worth $3.4M. Since the draft occurs before July 8th, the only way we can trade or aquire players is if their total contracts are no more than $3.4M. So, I doubt if NJ would give up a #11 for $3M, since their in no danger of going over the Luxury Tax.

If you take notice, I have Griffin Starting at PF. That is our #1 Pick.

As far as the $$ saving Issue for this year for NJ, I agree that is does not help them this year, but I think you could re-package Cisco and someone they are trying to get rid of (i.e. Yi or S. Williams) to get another expiring contract for 2010. Plus, Vinces Salary goes up each year (16.3, 17.3 18m in the final year which is 51+ mil. total.) Easier to trade a fairly young energetic guy making 6-7 mil., than and aging vet making 16 mil. or more.

I also understand the implications of the draft happening before the contracts come off the books. We could either use the S. Williams exception; or have a handshake deal where we decide who they pick @ #11 and they decide who we pick @ #23. Probably not entirely legal, but i can recall hearing about deals on draft day that are delayed due to needing to get to the date that all of the contracts switch to the next year. I can't remember a specific example, but I have a recollection of it happening.

 

[bajaden]

How about Amare for KT expiring, Thompson, and out top pick (if it is not #1 or #2).. That might net him if Phoenix REALLY wants to get rid of him. We all know they want Thompson.

I'm not sure what the infatuation with Amare is. He's due to make 16 mil next year and has an early opt out clause for 2010/2011 season. So we could have him for one year and then he could walk. In the meantime we've given up Thompson and potentially another good player, plus our cap space for the end of the following year.

Offensively, I'm not sure how good Amare would be without Nash, and the dude doesn't play any defense. Something I thought everyone was concerned about. I'm also not sure how durable Amare is, something that Thompson has so far proved to be. In Thompson you have a young PF that appears to have the potential to be pretty good. Maybe more. We won't know for a couple of years, but whats wrong finding out. Why does the grass always look greener somewhere else.

 

[rainmaker]

I'm not sure what the infatuation with Amare is. He's due to make 16 mil next year and has an early opt out clause for 2010/2011 season. So we could have him for one year and then he could walk. In the meantime we've given up Thompson and potentially another good player, plus our cap space for the end of the following year.

Offensively, I'm not sure how good Amare would be without Nash, and the dude doesn't play any defense. Something I thought everyone was concerned about. I'm also not sure how durable Amare is, something that Thompson has so far proved to be. In Thompson you have a young PF that appears to have the potential to be pretty good. Maybe more. We won't know for a couple of years, but whats wrong finding out. Why does the grass always look greener somewhere else.

I agree with you. I think Amare's numbers were inflated due to playing with Nash. Personally, I don't think he is worth his contract. If/when Amare moves on, he could become the next Shawn Marion. Great with Nash, huge decline in production without him.

 

[Henkel]

I agree with you. I think Amare's numbers were inflated due to playing with Nash. Personally, I don't think he is worth his contract. If/when Amare moves on, he could become the next Shawn Marion. Great with Nash, huge decline in production without him.

Comparing Marion and Amare is a stretch. Marion has been and will always be a glorified glue guy. Like AK47 he does many things well, but lacks the tools to dominate in any area. Amare in terms of skills, and at this point athleticism, is simply better then a player like Marion.

I never understood how anyone could claim Amare was a product of Nash. Playing with Nash gets u some easy baskets, as well as playing in a up tempo offense as a big man who can run the floor, but Amare has real skills in the high and low post. Amare is hard to handle on the block with his athleticism and strength, up high he has a great jumper out to 18 feet and a amazing first step thats complimented by very good ball handling for a player his size. Let me also bring up one other thing that is always overlooked, 25 ppg career playoff average including averaging 30ppg during one run. One of maybe 3 big men to ever play Duncan even or even outplay him. Amare didn't do this by running the floor or by spotting up for threes like Marion.

Amare had a disappointing year. A lot of that had to do with Porter, injury's, and Shaq/Kerr. He is only 27 and with the knee injury behind him i think he has at least 4 more years 20+ and 9 ball ahead of him. Not to many bigs put those kind of numbers up, and in a league where any above average big is going to get around 10 million a year i don't think Amare is over payed at 16mil a year.

I agree i wouldn't take that deal only because of the length of his contract. If he signed a extension or had more years on his current deal i would seriously consider it.

 

[HighTopKicks]

If you take notice, I have Griffin Starting at PF. That is our #1 Pick.

As far as the $$ saving Issue for this year for NJ, I agree that is does not help them this year, but I think you could re-package Cisco and someone they are trying to get rid of (i.e. Yi or S. Williams) to get another expiring contract for 2010. Plus, Vinces Salary goes up each year (16.3, 17.3 18m in the final year which is 51+ mil. total.) Easier to trade a fairly young energetic guy making 6-7 mil., than and aging vet making 16 mil. or more.

I also understand the implications of the draft happening before the contracts come off the books. We could either use the S. Williams exception; or have a handshake deal where we decide who they pick @ #11 and they decide who we pick @ #23. Probably not entirely legal, but i can recall hearing about deals on draft day that are delayed due to needing to get to the date that all of the contracts switch to the next year. I can't remember a specific example, but I have a recollection of it happening.

Your absolutely right Griffin was there. I guess in my Subconscious I already had him on the team.


The final year of Carters contract is not guaranteed, but I don't know if he is due any money if he's not picked up. But, I'm sure he's due closer to $33M than $51M. It's alway easy to say that Cisco's contract can be moved. But, try to move K9's or Beno's, it's not always easy.

I suppose it would be possible to conclude the deal after the Moritorium period. They pick they guy we want & we pick the guy that they want. As long as the draft picks don't sign a contract, the picks have $0 value in trades. But, their rookie scale contract ($1.7M for the 11th pick) does count toward the team salary. So, after the draft NJ will be $4.7M over the cap unless Trenton Hassell opts out of his contract.


With your deal we would be under the salary cap but NJ would be $2.7M over and they only have a $1.2M TPE. Under the CBA, trades, even those where you end up being less over the cap that before the trade, can't be made unless you use an exemption that covers the total value of the trade. So, the only deal that might work dollar wise would be K9 plus JT or Spencer.

 

[rainmaker]

Comparing Marion and Amare is a stretch. Marion has been and will always be a glorified glue guy. Like AK47 he does many things well, but lacks the tools to dominate in any area. Amare in terms of skills, and at this point athleticism, is simply better then a player like Marion.

I never understood how anyone could claim Amare was a product of Nash. Playing with Nash gets u some easy baskets, as well as playing in a up tempo offense as a big man who can run the floor, but Amare has real skills in the high and low post. Amare is hard to handle on the block with his athleticism and strength, up high he has a great jumper out to 18 feet and a amazing first step thats complimented by very good ball handling for a player his size. Let me also bring up one other thing that is always overlooked, 25 ppg career playoff average including averaging 30ppg during one run. One of maybe 3 big men to ever play Duncan even or even outplay him. Amare didn't do this by running the floor or by spotting up for threes like Marion.

Amare had a disappointing year. A lot of that had to do with Porter, injury's, and Shaq/Kerr. He is only 27 and with the knee injury behind him i think he has at least 4 more years 20+ and 9 ball ahead of him. Not to many bigs put those kind of numbers up, and in a league where any above average big is going to get around 10 million a year i don't think Amare is over payed at 16mil a year.

I agree i wouldn't take that deal only because of the length of his contract. If he signed a extension or had more years on his current deal i would seriously consider it.

I didn't mean to come accross that way. I don't think Amare and Marion are similar players at all. And yes, Amare has MUCH more talent than Marion. But how much of it is because of Nash. I think without Nash, if he is on a team without a top 10 pg, Amare's numbers would go down. That is my only comparison between Amare and Marion. Marion fell off more than Amare ever will.

I also think they were both a product of the Sun's system. Their uptempo style of play, along with Nash will inflate anyone's numbers. But I do agree with you about seriously considering trading for him if he had more years on his contract. He still will be a top 5 power forward for a few more years. His defense is below average though, so he wouldn't help us there.

 

[Henkel]

I didn't mean to come accross that way. I don't think Amare and Marion are similar players at all. And yes, Amare has MUCH more talent than Marion. But how much of it is because of Nash. I think without Nash, if he is on a team without a top 10 pg, Amare's numbers would go down. That is my only comparison between Amare and Marion. Marion fell off more than Amare ever will.

I also think they were both a product of the Sun's system. Their uptempo style of play, along with Nash will inflate anyone's numbers. But I do agree with you about seriously considering trading for him if he had more years on his contract. He still will be a top 5 power forward for a few more years. His defense is below average though, so he wouldn't help us there.

Any system where the goal is to get a lot of shots up is going to help your numbers. I think where we disagree is the effect of Nash, or any great guard, on a player like Amare. Dirk got a long fine without Nash. Nash is a great player and he makes life easy for players who can get out on a fast break, but Amare doesn't need to play in that type of system to be successful. When the Suns got far in the playoffs they did it with Amare as their best player. Even when the game got slowed down they could find him in the half court and let him work or play off the double team. Amare doesn't need Nash for that.

I know you are not comparing Marion and Amare directly but when you say they are both going to decline because of a system or player i assumed you felt it would be for similar reason. They have some similarity's but they played far different roles in the Suns half court offense. Also people need to remember Marion started his decline before he left the Suns. Marions on the backside of his career while Amare is still in his prime.

His defense does stink and he is a lazy rebounder. I don't think a trade like Gary proposed would be a slam dunk move, but if he had a longer contract and you think Amare can be a top 15 maybe top 20 type of player then it could be a good move.

 

[AriesMar27]

you people are crazy doubting amares skills... he was rookie of the year, beating out yao ming and his team made it to the playoffs with marbury as their starting pg. yes nash has infalted his stats but then again maybe not. look at joe johnson....

 

[Solano25]

I didn't mean to come accross that way. I don't think Amare and Marion are similar players at all. And yes, Amare has MUCH more talent than Marion. But how much of it is because of Nash. I think without Nash, if he is on a team without a top 10 pg, Amare's numbers would go down. That is my only comparison between Amare and Marion. Marion fell off more than Amare ever will.

I also think they were both a product of the Sun's system. Their uptempo style of play, along with Nash will inflate anyone's numbers. But I do agree with you about seriously considering trading for him if he had more years on his contract. He still will be a top 5 power forward for a few more years. His defense is below average though, so he wouldn't help us there.

I would say very little of Amare's success is dependent on Nash. Amare's first two years with the Suns were before Nash got there and he was their best player then too. He won ROTY his first year and went to 20ppg the next year. Personally, I think Nash benefitted more from Amare than vice versa. Nash was never as good with Dirk and Finley.

 

[rainmaker]

I would say very little of Amare's success is dependent on Nash. Amare's first two years with the Suns were before Nash got there and he was their best player then too. He won ROTY his first year and went to 20ppg the next year. Personally, I think Nash benefitted more from Amare than vice versa. Nash was never as good with Dirk and Finley.

I see your point. But IMO Amare played off raw athleticism his first few years, and he was an absolute beast. He is now 27, and he won't be able to rely on his athleticism as much going forward. I ahaven't seen much improvement in his game except for his jumper. I think without Nash, and without the athleticism he displayed when he was in his early 20's, the game will get tougher for him until he show improved skills in the post.

 

[Solano25]

I see your point. But IMO Amare played off raw athleticism his first few years, and he was an absolute beast. He is now 27, and he won't be able to rely on his athleticism as much going forward. I ahaven't seen much improvement in his game except for his jumper. I think without Nash, and without the athleticism he displayed when he was in his early 20's, the game will get tougher for him until he show improved skills in the post.

IMO Amare's greatest asset was always his all around skill as well as his explosiveness. Players rarely succeed as dramatically as him without both.

That said, I would hesitate about giving up either JT or our top pick for him because of his questionable defense and, besides, the knee scares me to death. Even with a good comeback or two like he has had, you know his best days are going to end much sooner than they would have otherwise, and it's only a matter of time before he goes the way of Webb and Abdur-Rahim and can't move laterally to save his life. Then we'd have given up our future for a huge empty contract and just have to wait for it to expire.

If Phoenix is desperate to get rid of him and would take cap space and expiring garbage in return, then I think it would be well worth it, but otherwise not. I'm sure they must have a better offer on the table than that from somebody, so not.

 

[bajaden]

IMO Amare's greatest asset was always his all around skill as well as his explosiveness. Players rarely succeed as dramatically as him without both.

That said, I would hesitate about giving up either JT or our top pick for him because of his questionable defense and, besides, the knee scares me to death. Even with a good comeback or two like he has had, you know his best days are going to end much sooner than they would have otherwise, and it's only a matter of time before he goes the way of Webb and Abdur-Rahim and can't move laterally to save his life. Then we'd have given up our future for a huge empty contract and just have to wait for it to expire.

If Phoenix is desperate to get rid of him and would take cap space and expiring garbage in return, then I think it would be well worth it, but otherwise not. I'm sure they must have a better offer on the table than that from somebody, so not.

Amare has always had the athleticism and explosiveness. The skill set, not so. His midrange jumper and post game were very raw when he came into the league. But he was picked by the right team. He may not have had Nash, but he did have Marbury, who at the time was playing pretty good basketball.

I don't think anyone is trying to degrade Stoudemire, at least I'm not. I just happen to think he's on the right team for his skill set. A lot of his game depends on someone getting him the ball in the right place at the right time. He's been fortunate enough to have been surrounded by skilled players. Hardaway was a skilled passer.

I just don't think that he's a good idea for our team, at the price it would cost us at this time. By the way, he's not that bad a rebounder. I think the knock on his rebounding is that most of his rebounds are offensive. I agree, that if we could get him for a song and a prayer, hell yeah! But I doubt that will happen. The price will be expensive, and we wouldn't be in a youth movement anymore. We would be back into a win now mode, knowing we only had a few years of Amare at his peak. And thats if his knee's hold up.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

I'm not sure what the infatuation with Amare is. He's due to make 16 mil next year and has an early opt out clause for 2010/2011 season. So we could have him for one year and then he could walk. In the meantime we've given up Thompson and potentially another good player, plus our cap space for the end of the following year.

Offensively, I'm not sure how good Amare would be without Nash, and the dude doesn't play any defense. Something I thought everyone was concerned about. I'm also not sure how durable Amare is, something that Thompson has so far proved to be. In Thompson you have a young PF that appears to have the potential to be pretty good. Maybe more. We won't know for a couple of years, but whats wrong finding out. Why does the grass always look greener somewhere else.

Especially considering that most big market teams have worked to clear cap space for next summer, mortgaging very good pieces for him doesn't seem wise. If next off season was projecting to be one of those Clipper and Bobcats are the only teams under the cap summers, then the risk might be worth it.

 

[Aenadin]

i dont understand the fascination with Amare either... i wouldnt trade a high pick and Thompson for him...

why trade a 22 year old with great chemistry with your starting center of the future... and a young prospect for a 26 year old with surgically repaired kness and coming out of an eye surgery...

keep the roster.. add a few pieces here and there with the picks.. but no Amare

i dont know what people would say but to me Amare is just like an uber athletic David west...

both blossom at the presence of a good point guard

dont spend it on the likes of boozer and amare PLEASE

 

[Bricklayer]

The fascination with Amare is that he's been First Team All NBA and at this point Jason Thompson would have to get on his knees and beg to get a position as his assistant jock strap washer.

The fascination with Jason is what is questionable. Like the kid and am oh so relieved to finally have a full sized PF. But he is miles away from being an Amare, and he's not THAT much younger either. He was an old rookie and doesn't have a 5 year window of improvement the way the young kids do. If Jason isn't as good as Amare in the next two years, he never will be.

As an aside, Amare's attitude is highly questionable, but it is Shaq's presence in the paint, and as an ego, that caused Amare to slip all the down to a "mere" 22 and 8 player.

 

[Aenadin]

even if he went first team I still wouldnt trade THAT much for him

were looking for a leader and i dont think amare is a leader

 

[bajaden]

The fascination with Amare is that he's been First Team All NBA and at this point Jason Thompson would have to get on his knees and beg to get a position as his assistant jock strap washer.

I know your prone to make outragious statements. But you just created an image that I find repulsive. Its nice to know that you think so highly of Thompson, that you would have him on his knee's in front of Amare's jockstrape. I find it despicable that people feel the need to degrade one player in order to make their point about another.

 

[TheRaven]

I know your prone to make outragious statements. But you just created an image that I find repulsive. Its nice to know that you think so highly of Thompson, that you would have him on his knee's in front of Amare's jockstrape. I find it despicable that people feel the need to degrade one player in order to make their point about another.

There are these things called jokes, that sometimes use sarcasm and exaggeration. Talk about overreaction....

Bricklayer is 100% correct though. Thompson is already a solid player with the possibility to become better. That is great, a nice piece for a young rebuilding team. Pretty good pick to get at the 12 spot, but people here overrate him to a comical degree.

It is insane to talk about Thompson as though he is guaranteed to even APPROACH the sort of game that Amare puts up on a good night. He is a great talent who has been performing on an all-star level for years. We aren't talking about what a player might develop into, we are talking about a proven talent. With Nash, without Nash, he is still great.

People can talk about what-ifs concerning his knee all you want, but it is hypocritical to make that such a huge issue with Amare and then play down the issue when it comes to Hawes. For all we know Thompson could have a career-ending injury tomorrow out of nowhere, there are no guarantees.

It is fine for people to disagree and just believe Amare's salary and ego are not a good fit for our team, or believe that you would rather keep the picks and Thompson. Just don't downplay Amare and act like Thompson is even close to being as good he is, or that he is guaranteed to ever be that good.

 

[bajaden]

There are these things called jokes, that sometimes use sarcasm and exaggeration. Talk about overreaction....

Bricklayer is 100% correct though. Thompson is already a solid player with the possibility to become better. That is great, a nice piece for a young rebuilding team. Pretty good pick to get at the 12 spot, but people here overrate him to a comical degree.

It is insane to talk about Thompson as though he is guaranteed to even APPROACH the sort of game that Amare puts up on a good night. He is a great talent who has been performing on an all-star level for years. We aren't talking about what a player might develop into, we are talking about a proven talent. With Nash, without Nash, he is still great.

People can talk about what-ifs concerning his knee all you want, but it is hypocritical to make that such a huge issue with Amare and then play down the issue when it comes to Hawes. For all we know Thompson could have a career-ending injury tomorrow out of nowhere, there are no guarantees.

It is fine for people to disagree and just believe Amare's salary and ego are not a good fit for our team, or believe that you would rather keep the picks and Thompson. Just don't downplay Amare and act like Thompson is even close to being as good he is, or that he is guaranteed to ever be that good.

You may or may not be talking about me, but I never downplayed Amare. I described what he was as a player, and gave him credit. I also just deal with facts. The facts are that he's always had a very good pt guard to get him the ball. Which, early in his career was a great help to him. I doubt Amare would have been off to that great a start with Beno feeding him the ball..

Thats not a knock on Amare. I'm simply saying he was lucky to be in that situation. Do you think that Thompson would have been better if he had Nash as a pt guard? Of course he would. I'll tell you this, and its just my opinion, but Thompson is going to be a better defensive player than Amare. You know why? Because he actually tries. Something Amare does when it pleases him.

As far as my response to Bricky. Perhaps I did overreact. And yes I know what humor and scarcasm are. I've been accused of using them from time to time. Sorry, I just didn't find that one funny. You want to tell me that Amare is better than Thompson, fine. Thats a no brainer. Thompson = rookie. Amare = seasoned veteran and ex-allstar. If you want to debate the why's and why nots of making a trade for Amare, fine. I'm all for it. But don't paint me a picture of Thompson being subservient to anyone. Or perhaps you would like to wash Amare's jockstrap. Now that strikes me as funny. Perhaps you were right.