UPDATE: Bulls match offer sheet for Zach LaVine (NEW Poll)

What's your take on the 4/78 offer to Zach LaVine?


  • Total voters
    72
These people with the advanced stats want to put together teams on paper, they want a bunch of stationary high percentage catch and shoot players and then to put the onus completely on fox to break the defense with the dribble, and distribute properly.
No. There are a lot of detailed analysis on Lavine and his metrics here. Read one of those and answer to one of those instead of making up an argument to argue against.

he'd have been a good late-shotclock option.
Player with so many weaknesses, being a good "late shotclock option" doesnt justify 4/80mil contract. Late shotclock situatuons are allways low percentage situations and since you didnt give any actuall numbers to prove he really is a "good late shotclock option" its hard to comment on that, but getting a 34% long two instead of 30% long two couple times a game doesnt mean that much to me.
 
No. There are a lot of detailed analysis on Lavine and his metrics here. Read one of those and answer to one of those instead of making up an argument to argue against.



Player with so many weaknesses, being a good "late shotclock option" doesnt justify 4/80mil contract. Late shotclock situatuons are allways low percentage situations and since you didnt give any actuall numbers to prove he really is a "good late shotclock option" its hard to comment on that, but getting a 34% long two instead of 30% long two couple times a game doesnt mean that much to me.
Making up an arguement? Is LaVine having a quick first step and excellent ability in transition some sort of fiction in your eyes?? you literally can't respond to my points because you're so tethered to your advanced stats LOL, it's simple.

Advanced stats are easily best in BASEBALL, you have this situation where u get 1 batter vs 1 pitcher and there's lots of data to extrapolate and not too many variables... what goes on in basketball is a cluster**** of variables in comparison...........................(tell me im wrong...) ........................................ the advanced stats suck compared to baseball, it's not even close.......

Is talking about the ACTUAL ****ING MOVES a player uses, not detailed analysis? LOLOLOLOLOLOL.... No? When did that happen? Not detailed enough for you? If you need numbers and %'s to look at as cold hard facts your takes will always lack vision..

"Any artist can turn a garden into a desert. But can he turn a desert into a garden?"

I love this quote it destroys most know-it-all's on forums like this, who act like talking crap/down is on some equal plane as hyping or believing insomething, no it's not the same, being a hater/wetblanket is a much simpler task, anyone who understands the basics of semantics can be a hater..

Ok fine, u don't like LaVine, WHATS YOUR SOLUTION THEN? You've got something solutions based? what do the advanced stats say the Kings should do?????????

We can;t talk about his first step or his change of direction, his burst, his creativity -------- ALL THINGS THAT THE KINGS CLEARLY COULD USE MORE OF... Only advanced stats. Only what he did for the timberwolves and chicago are what matters, projecting any sort of growth or variance could prove fatal to the Kings rebuild, staying true to advanced stats is the only safe course.
 
Last edited:
These people with the advanced stats want to put together teams on paper, they want a bunch of stationary high percentage catch and shoot players and then to put the onus completely on fox to break the defense with the dribble, and distribute properly. and for sure they will blame and point all the fingers at fox if it doesn't work. LOL. This is the stupidity of NBA fans these days tbh.

Zach LaVine was absolutely one of the premier scoring options off the dribble on the market, end of story, there's no debate. he's an ultra athlete primed to run, being on a team with a lightning fast frontcourt and PG would've been a nice fit, and in halfcourt offense he'd have been a good late-shotclock option.

Now that LaVine is off the market, the Kings options for picking up players who can contribute this way, how the team needs, are limited... this sucks..

these negative nancy types infesting basketball forums all across the net will ultimately blame the kings players, who are woefully outmatched for the task at hand.

If fox goes down this team is dunzo and they'll meekly surrender a top pick, the coach and gm will be fired and we start again next off season.

this is a terrible outcome for the kings. those celebrating it celebrate what exactly? another 20 or maybe 30 win season? HOO-RAY.. More PT for Garrett Temple and Iman Shumpert??? HOO-RAY...

LaVine was too good to be true, said it all along. You've got some form of stockholm syndrome if you think otherwise LOL.

I swear these analytics types of mob mentality people are pure comedy. Wish I could play these ppl 1v1. LOL. i'm a legit 6'1, I can dunk, i dribble real well like a PG, i can shoot the lights out, im quick and left handed so im very good at swiping away righties dribble who stay too right and don't protect the ball... been watching basketball all my life. No doubt I'd beat most of these applied mathmatics degree having dudes 15-0 1v1, but here on the forums they think their 'never played basketball past little league acumen' reigns supreme.
Please....tell us how you really feel. ;)
 
Last edited:
Making up an arguement? Is LaVine having a quick first step and excellent ability in transition some sort of fiction in your eyes?? you literally can't respond to my points because you're so tethered to your advanced stats LOL, it's simple.
This is you making up an argument:
"These people with the advanced stats want to put together teams on paper, they want a bunch of stationary high percentage catch and shoot players and then to put the onus completely on fox to break the defense with the dribble, and distribute properly."

Nobody ever said they only want stationary catch and shooters, so that means you made up an argument and started arguing against it.

Advanced stats are easily best in BASEBALL, you have this situation where u get 1 batter vs 1 pitcher and there's lots of data to extrapolate and not too many variables... what goes on in basketball is a cluster**** of variables in comparison...........................(tell me im wrong...) ........................................ the advanced stats suck compared to baseball, it's not even close.......
Im not that into baseball so I cant comment on that. What I can comment on is that even if there is a lot of variables in basketball, these advanced metrics still predict pretty well how much certain players contribute to winning basketball. As its been stated here numerous times, players with VORP or WS as bad as Lavines usually have been quite bad players and havent contributed to winning basketball. If you want to tell the rest of us how Lavine is an outlier in that group and actually contributes to winning so much he is worth 4/80mil, please do so. "Those stats are stupid" or linking his highlight tape isnt the answer.

Is talking about the ACTUAL ****ING MOVES a player uses, not detailed analysis? LOLOLOLOLOLOL.... No? When did that happen? Not detailed enough for you? If you need numbers and %'s to look at as cold hard facts your takes will always lack vision..
First of all I didnt say your analysis werent detailed, I said there are a lot of detailed analysis on his metrics that you should try to argue against rather than making up an argument. But to be honest, if your analysis completely dismisses important metrics like RPM or VORP ect, dismisses why these metrics are very poor with him, imo its not very detailed analysis. If its only posting some highlight tapes and telling people "the actual moves he uses" while dismissing a lot ot other stuff, its not very detailed.

"Any artist can turn a garden into a desert. But can he turn a desert into a garden?"

I love this quote it destroys most know-it-all's on forums like this, who act like talking crap/down is on some equal plane as hyping or believing insomething, no it's not the same, being a hater/wetblanket is a much simpler task, anyone who understands the basics of semantics can be a hater..
Tbh I have no idea what this means but there is a word hater which I find pretty funny. I dont have nearly enough emotional intrest in Zach Lavine to be his "hater". I've seen him play for many years and many times, I've seen his advanced metrics that suggest he doesnt contribute to winning basketball, I've seen him being a horrible defender and low bbiq guy so from those obseravtions I've drawn a conclusion that I really dont want to pay him 4/80.

Ok fine, u don't like LaVine, WHATS YOUR SOLUTION THEN? You've got something solutions based? what do the advanced stats say the Kings should do?????????
Doing nothing is always better than doing something bad. Taking on an untradeable four year contract is a huge net negative move. If you want to know specifically what I would like to do with our cap space, its a different and long conversation but in a nutshell: last year I hated all our signings, I wouldve absolutely wantend to do that Demarre Carroll salary dump deal. This year I want us to be very aggressive in those type of deals and preserve cap space to do these. Thats because for us the draft is the easiest way and the least risky way to find talent in a value contract Also I'd like us to do some 2+1, 3+1 cheap and very team friendly unguaranteed wing signings in order to create either a tradeable asset or a valuable player. Low risk, mediocre reward type of deals. Again, retaining flexibility is a lot better than losing it to a high risk low reward deals like Lavine for 4/80.

We can;t talk about his first step or his change of direction, his burst, his creativity -------- ALL THINGS THAT THE KINGS CLEARLY COULD USE MORE OF... Only advanced stats. Only what he did for the timberwolves and chicago are what matters, projecting any sort of growth or variance could prove fatal to the Kings rebuild, staying true to advanced stats is the only safe course.
No, we can talk both but we obviously need to address why his metrics are so poor. If the answer is "those metrics are useless" its probably a wrong answer. Especially with Lavine whose highlight tapes look nice, its important to analyze why these metrics suggest he doesnt contribute to winning. And especially when we are handing out a massive contract like that it needs to be addressed.

Then while we address those concerns, we can talk about his fit with the current team and what he brings to the table and what he doesnt. I think those points have been addressed by most of the people who also want to talk about his metrics. He brings shot creating and shooting and he doesnt bring defense or basketball iq. His fit is also poor since we already have two shooting guards that are both undersized to play sf. But thats only a part of the conversation. Him being able to shoot off the dribble doesnt mean much if he constantly sucks on defense and doesnt contribute to ball movement ect. And that is where you combine the metrics to the eye test.
 
Making up an arguement? Is LaVine having a quick first step and excellent ability in transition some sort of fiction in your eyes?? you literally can't respond to my points because you're so tethered to your advanced stats LOL, it's simple.

Advanced stats are easily best in BASEBALL, you have this situation where u get 1 batter vs 1 pitcher and there's lots of data to extrapolate and not too many variables... what goes on in basketball is a cluster**** of variables in comparison...........................(tell me im wrong...) ........................................ the advanced stats suck compared to baseball, it's not even close.......

Is talking about the ACTUAL ****ING MOVES a player uses, not detailed analysis? LOLOLOLOLOLOL.... No? When did that happen? Not detailed enough for you? If you need numbers and %'s to look at as cold hard facts your takes will always lack vision..

"Any artist can turn a garden into a desert. But can he turn a desert into a garden?"

I love this quote it destroys most know-it-all's on forums like this, who act like talking crap/down is on some equal plane as hyping or believing insomething, no it's not the same, being a hater/wetblanket is a much simpler task, anyone who understands the basics of semantics can be a hater..

Ok fine, u don't like LaVine, WHATS YOUR SOLUTION THEN? You've got something solutions based? what do the advanced stats say the Kings should do?????????

We can;t talk about his first step or his change of direction, his burst, his creativity -------- ALL THINGS THAT THE KINGS CLEARLY COULD USE MORE OF... Only advanced stats. Only what he did for the timberwolves and chicago are what matters, projecting any sort of growth or variance could prove fatal to the Kings rebuild, staying true to advanced stats is the only safe course.
I wouldn’t put it this aggressively, but do agree with the sentiment. There is a decided lack of playing experience in the current basketball internets conversation. Quite a different experience from even 5 years ago.
 
These people with the advanced stats want to put together teams on paper, they want a bunch of stationary high percentage catch and shoot players and then to put the onus completely on fox to break the defense with the dribble, and distribute properly. and for sure they will blame and point all the fingers at fox if it doesn't work. LOL. This is the stupidity of NBA fans these days tbh.

Zach LaVine was absolutely one of the premier scoring options off the dribble on the market, end of story, there's no debate. he's an ultra athlete primed to run, being on a team with a lightning fast frontcourt and PG would've been a nice fit, and in halfcourt offense he'd have been a good late-shotclock option.

Now that LaVine is off the market, the Kings options for picking up players who can contribute this way, how the team needs, are limited... this sucks..

these negative nancy types infesting basketball forums all across the net will ultimately blame the kings players, who are woefully outmatched for the task at hand.

If fox goes down this team is dunzo and they'll meekly surrender a top pick, the coach and gm will be fired and we start again next off season.

this is a terrible outcome for the kings. those celebrating it celebrate what exactly? another 20 or maybe 30 win season? HOO-RAY.. More PT for Garrett Temple and Iman Shumpert??? HOO-RAY...

LaVine was too good to be true, said it all along. You've got some form of stockholm syndrome if you think otherwise LOL.

I swear these analytics types of mob mentality people are pure comedy. Wish I could play these ppl 1v1. LOL. i'm a legit 6'1, I can dunk, i dribble real well like a PG, i can shoot the lights out, im quick and left handed so im very good at swiping away righties dribble who stay too right and don't protect the ball... been watching basketball all my life. No doubt I'd beat most of these applied mathmatics degree having dudes 15-0 1v1, but here on the forums they think their 'never played basketball past little league acumen' reigns supreme.
You have yet to tell people how their stats are wrong other than just throwing out LOLs and talking about how dumb they are and how awesome you are. I've yet to see a single rational argument from you. Please tell me how this stat is wrong...

https://www.basketball-reference.co..._is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&order_by=vorp

Please tell me how this stat is wrong...

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM

All the guys that lead their teams to the playoffs and championships are at the top of these lists and the guys that don't do squat on losing teams are all at the bottom. That's about as accurate as it gets as far as winning basketball games goes.

Yet you come around showing us highlight reels of players that are ranked like 350th in the NBA and you think it's a good idea to sign them to 20million dollar a year contracts. I'm sure all these analytical stats are completely wrong even though all the good players are at the top and all the bad players are at the bottom. They're wrong because you've been watching basketball all your life and you're 6'1" and can "dribble real well like a PG". As if that somehow trumps mathematicians that come up with analytics that somehow just happen to have all the best players in the NBA at the top. The best players aren't 350th. They're at the top. Ever wonder why the players at the top of this list are almost never available? Because they're the good players. The players 350th are available all the time because they aren't good.

LaVine's career year landed him in 139th in VORP and 388th in RPM. He's not good even when he's "good". He doesn't play defense and hasn't shown any ability to improve that in 4 years. His career more than likely will not trend upward and he more than likely will not even crack the top 100 unless an act of god happens and he all the sudden figures out how to defend. This kid will never make the playoffs as the #1 or #2 option unless the #1 option on the team is of the Lebron, Harden, Curry, Durant variety. Close the book on him because there's no evidence whatsoever that says he's going to wind up being a winning player.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
MOD NOTE: I honestly couldn't care less if you guys argue advanced stats v. performance (orwhatever the heck it is you're arguing) from now until eternity but keep it civil. No personal attacks, insults, etc. Otherwise, I'm closing the thread.
 
MOD NOTE: I honestly couldn't care less if you guys argue advanced stats v. performance (orwhatever the heck it is you're arguing) from now until eternity but keep it civil. No personal attacks, insults, etc. Otherwise, I'm closing the thread.
no personal attacks or insults??? gut punch :(
 
i'm a legit 6'1, I can dunk, i dribble real well like a PG, i can shoot the lights out, im quick and left handed so im very good at swiping away righties dribble who stay too right.
Maybe we should offer you 4/80:p
.
.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
4 second contract and $0.80 cents.
 
Albert Nahmad: Bulls, after matching Zach LaVine’s 4-year, $78M offer sheet, cannot trade LaVine without his consent, or to the Kings under any circumstances, for one year. – via Twitter AlbertNahmad

Does this mean he had a "No trade clause" with us and since they matched it's also included?