Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Actually Bogut, Jennings, and Salmons led that team to the playoffs, with Bogut and Salmons playing bigger roles down the stretch than Jennings did.
Tyreke, Jimmer, Thornton, and Cousins
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Actually Bogut, Jennings, and Salmons led that team to the playoffs, with Bogut and Salmons playing bigger roles down the stretch than Jennings did.
It doesn't but the only thing is they are more established than he is. Jimmer might not turn out to be a big star, but at the same time there are a lot of fans of other teams and basketball analysts that don't think ANY of our guys are stars, and therefor it's not really an insult to mention Jimmer with those 3. I don't want to be the guy saying this but for all we know Tyreke could stay about the same as he is(which is a borderline star IMO), Thornton could stay just a scorer who needs to shoot the ball a lot to be productive, and Cousins could turn into the next Derrick Coleman. I don't think that's going to happen, but it's possible. Jimmer has a chance to be a pretty good player himself, maybe not as valuable to a team like Cousins could be because of the difference in talent, or as good as Tyreke because of Tyreke's size+skill set, but I could see him being a Mike Bibby type player pretty easily. Maybe a Steph Curry(who btw actually IS a star and may be better than anyone currently on our team) if he really makes the most out of his chance. He's got a lot of learning to do but he is actually good at basketball with some skills that can help right away(shooting+decision making-yeah he makes some bad decisions too but he is a rookie). Just because people are annoyed with the BYU fan boys doesn't mean they need to treat the guy like he is a scrub.
do you think they actually would have made it with Thornton playing PG instead of Jennings? Go ask that on realgm or inside hoops and I'm retty sure 90% of people there will agree with me.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
That argument makes no sense based on the fact that Thornton is about as much of a PG as Mitch Ritchmond, which is to say that he isn't. You may as well have asked if the Bucks would have made it into the playoffs with Shaq as PG.
But yes, they actually might have with MT on the team. Luke Ridnour was the most effective PG on the Bucks by the season's end.
No he wasn't. Jennings played more minutes than Ridnour in the playoffs, scored more points, and got more assists. Ridnour had like 1 game in the playoffs where he had more assists. I don't think any games where he had more points. Jennings scored over twice as many points as Ridnour in the playoffs (18 vs 8), had more assists, and more rebounds, the only thing Ridnour did was shoot a better percentage. That is pretty much the definition of end of the season and they took a tough hawks team to 7 games. Salmons also only played 30 games with them that season and it was the most productive point in his career, which is what happens when you play with a good PG. Then he comes here and averages 8 PPG. I dont think you can say that if you took Jennings off that bucks team and put Thornton as their SG that they would make the playoffs. Thornton probably wouldn't have even started on that team since Salmons was very important for them at the 2 guard with his defense and slashing. I'm pretty sure a Jennings/Salmons backcourt would've been better than a Ridnour/Thornton backcourt.
Not quite sure if this was in response to my post. I wasn't bashing Jimmer btw, unless you think he really he is better than Kobe Bryant.
I think it's funny that people are criticizing a 22 year old rookie with no offseason and a shortened preseason for not showing enough when he's averaging like 10 ppg and 3 apg. I also think it's funny that an equal number of people are saying a 22 year old rookie averaging 10 ppg and 3 apg is better than any other player on the team. If people would just stop going to the extremes and realise that Jimmer is a rookie doing perfectly fine for us with much to learn, and probably doesn't have that high of a potential it would be so much better. And really it doesn't matter if he doesn't become an all star for us, he just needs to become a solid player that can make plays and hit good shots and someone who the team can turn to when we need some instant offense.
I'm exaggerating. People have said that we should bench Tyreke and Thornton and start him instead. People have said he's the only one on the team capable of running a play. I'm not targetting you in particular. As for potential, I don't mean that Jimmer is just some life-long role player or anything like that. But he isn't the next Dwyane Wade level superstar which a few real Jimmer fans seem to think.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Don't worry, you haven't, and quoting the Round Mound of Moron is not the way to go about it. Its hardly an incisive observation. Every bad team has a leading scorer. So does every good team. And a great many of the good team leading scorers have been bad team leading scorers at some point in their careers. LeBron, Pierce, Wade, Kobe, Durant...the list goes on. Its a circular argument that brings you right back to the point you seen to struggle with: talent assessment.
Look, you're one note and one player. If you would like I could take over and make your posts for a while, they're pretty easy to predict.
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Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
If we're playing the theoretical game here, who's to say that the Bucks would have had to have traded for Salmons if they had had MT the entire season? For all we know a Bogut/MT tandem could have worked better than a Bogut/Jennings one with the Bucks instead trading for a PG or PF to push ahead into the playoff stretch Getting back to your original post, it's rather disingenuous to say that Jennings led the Bucks to the playoffs (which is kind of like saying that Scottie Pippen led the Bulls to 6 championships without even bringing up the fact that some guy named Michael Jordan was on the team at the same time). Jennings is more important to the Bucks than MT is to us right now only because we've got a roster with better players than the Bucks.
While I do agree with your assessment of the whole "there are more good scorers on good teams than on bad teams" thing, I feel like point to a Don Nelson team as an example of that is skewing things a bit in that that entire system is designed to maximize point output from players while hoping that the other team can't outscore you. Compare that to the situation here in which our big three were scoring in spite of the system.
A lot of the star talk around MT stems from his clutch factor, something that separates him from the Kevin Martins (someone putting up similar scoring stats) of the world. While you can teach scoring and shooting and fundamentals, you can't teach clutch. That is why people are listing Reke, Cuz, and MT as our big three. IF Jimmer exhibits this (or at least starts hitting his damn shots), then maybe we can consider him being in this tier. But as of yet, he is not.
I think people proposed the idea of Jimmer starting over either Tyreke and Marcus because out of those three players, he's the most unselfish. The idea behind starting Jimmer is that the offense would run more smoothly because he's more willing to give up the ball, not because he's a superstar in the making.
Oh that's not what I have an issue with. Many have proposed starting Jimmer over Marcus so that we can bring Marcus off the bench. But if you refer to one of the threads here some poster said we have to bench BOTH Marcus and Tyreke and start Jimmer. (with who I don't know) Maybe so that we'd only have 4 guys on the floor thus ensuring that there are less people who are reluctant to pass the ball to Jimmer.
RookieOfTheDay
Starter
Exactly. Starting doesn't always have to mean that you're "better" than who's coming off the bench. Sometimes it's about what's best for the team. Doug Christie wasn't a better basketball player than Bobby Jackson but he started ahead of him because it made sense on that team.
I'm a celtics fan. I am only on this board because I drafted Jimmer in my keeper fantasy league.
Marcus Thornton is not a star. Hes the most selfish guy in the NBA. Yes hes a sick good shooter and is very good at creating offense for himself. Hes also an underrated defender. That's where it ends. He almost never passes, and even worse blatantly ignores open guys almost always. Half the time he passes it's only to avoid a turnover. He's a big reason why other guys on the team have lower %s than they should, because he ignores them when they are open and for them to get offense they have to create it for themselves most of the time. He's the type of guy who will be a 20 ppg scorer on losing teams all throughout his career. It's really disgusting to watch him play, i'm actually shocked he even has 1.6 assists per game this year.
Marcus Thornton is not a star. Hes the most selfish guy in the NBA. Yes hes a sick good shooter and is very good at creating offense for himself. Hes also an underrated defender. That's where it ends. He almost never passes, and even worse blatantly ignores open guys almost always. Half the time he passes it's only to avoid a turnover. He's a big reason why other guys on the team have lower %s than they should, because he ignores them when they are open and for them to get offense they have to create it for themselves most of the time. He's the type of guy who will be a 20 ppg scorer on losing teams all throughout his career. It's really disgusting to watch him play, i'm actually shocked he even has 1.6 assists per game this year.
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sidney
Starter
Really? Because he averaged 3.5 assists with us last year which is quite solid for a SG. Our coach just got fired for his pathetic offensive system. Every player's assists are way down this year because of it. I'm guessing you are not actually watching him play and instead watching your AARP team.
Lol what? Of course I am watching him play, that's why I made the post. Am only going by what i've seen this season, yes of course this is my first time watching the kings. So far this season I have never seen a player be more selfish in my entire life of watching basketball.
He was still super selfish in smart's first game as well. I'm sure westphal was instructing buckets to ignore wide open teammates tho.
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sidney
Starter
Yeah, really sorry to hear Jimmer's poor shooting % is hurting your fantasy team and that Thornton is putting up top 5 numbers for all SG at a high percentage.
jimmer is on my dleague squad and I don't need him at all this year so it's not.
top 5 numbers, spoken like a true loser. you have a lot to learn about winning basketball.
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sidney
Starter
Thanks for the update
Son, I'm quite sure I've been around much longer than you and know what makes a winning team. I've seen empty number players by the dozens. Marcus is not one of them
jcassio
Starter
I think your original post was quite reasonable. You clearly stated that you thought these four players have the potential to be stars in the NBA. I agree wholeheartedly. But it's the word "star" that makes this such a divisive thread, since everyone has their own idea of what that means, and some have already anointed one, two or three of those players as stars today, and not "potential stars" tomorrow. Jimmer is not a star today and won't be one tomorrow, except perhaps in popularity terms. But it's reasonable to say he has the "potential" to be a star. Right now he's a struggling rookie.
On Marcus Thornton, I'm happy to have him on the team. He's an exciting player. Although this dates me, I see him more as a Vinny Johnson than a Crawford or Terry. On a playoff team, Thornton would probably make more of an impact as the 6th man - at this point in his career. But Marcus is still developing and might become a more well-rounded player before the typecasting cement dries.
kupman
Starter
I am intrigued by the idea that once the rookies develop a little and adjust to the NBA game that we start Jimmer with Reke and bring MT off the bench with IT. I like rotations when the 2nd best scorer (MT) is brought off the bench to add a spark mid-way through the 1st quarter and not share shots with the #1 scorer on the team so much.
MT could have a Bobby Jackson kind of role. Jimmer and IT could potentially fit the role of set-up guys nicely.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
The whole team has been called selfish this year so I don't know why you have picked him out.
Thornton is averaging 19.4 pt per game and Evans, 2nd best, is averaging 14.8 pts per game.
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Because hes the most selfish of the bunch and one of, if not the most selfish player i've ever seen in my 15+ years of nba watching.
L
Lafayette
Guest
All I can say is that the future looks bright on this team. As soon as they all know they're roles and play with a simple system that plays to the players strengths, it'll be a whole new ball game. As for Jimmer, he's a great draft choice that will let the game come to him and at the moment he's doing a fine job out there for a rookie.
We overrate Thorton and non Kings fans underrate him. We know he can score and he can shoot the 3 as well as anyone. His problem is that he's undersized and isn't the best at creating his own shot. He tries to dribble into traffic and gets it stolen from him quite a bit.
Tyreke can either be a solid semi-superstar or fade away in the next couple of years. He has all the talent in the world but he doesn't look like he's going to take that next step to superstar status. He's just kind of hit a plateau and doesn't seem to have that "it" factor to pull out of it.
Demarcus has a ton of talent but he's too whiny and not very good at finishing at the basket. He has a ton of post moves but rarely do they work on a consistent basis. He needs more time before we can assess him.
Jimmer is obviously the least talented of the bunch by a lot. His #1 skill is his shot and right now it's not falling. He is ok at distributing the ball but has some horrible habits he needs to work on, such as picking up his dribble in traffic and running the clock down to 3 or 4 seconds left without getting anywhere. Obviously he's a rookie and we have to wait a while to see what he's going to turn into. So far I think he can develop into a decent role player but he doesn't look like he's going to turn into a starting PG. On defense he just gets absolutely worked on almost every possession. He's too slow and too undersized. He made Beno look like a giant while standing next to him.
Tyreke can either be a solid semi-superstar or fade away in the next couple of years. He has all the talent in the world but he doesn't look like he's going to take that next step to superstar status. He's just kind of hit a plateau and doesn't seem to have that "it" factor to pull out of it.
Demarcus has a ton of talent but he's too whiny and not very good at finishing at the basket. He has a ton of post moves but rarely do they work on a consistent basis. He needs more time before we can assess him.
Jimmer is obviously the least talented of the bunch by a lot. His #1 skill is his shot and right now it's not falling. He is ok at distributing the ball but has some horrible habits he needs to work on, such as picking up his dribble in traffic and running the clock down to 3 or 4 seconds left without getting anywhere. Obviously he's a rookie and we have to wait a while to see what he's going to turn into. So far I think he can develop into a decent role player but he doesn't look like he's going to turn into a starting PG. On defense he just gets absolutely worked on almost every possession. He's too slow and too undersized. He made Beno look like a giant while standing next to him.
Telemachus
Starter
I take it you never saw Allen Iverson play, as he is the most selfish player I have ever seen. I could give you a list of many other selfish players, but don't have the time to waste. I simply put it this way: You have seen a very small selection of game of MT with with to judge him (in a system that stressed one-on-one play). He was a much more williing passer last season, even liked the fact that the whole team seemed willing to make the extra pass (a lot has changed in an off season). I think you will start to see more of what we saw out of him last season with Smart taking over the team. You just have to give them and the coach a little time to make some changes.
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