Trade Thornton & Thompson?

[bajaden]

Generally speaking, franchise level talents come into the league as franchise level talents. Sure in some cases mediocre big men develop into a good big men. But I can't think of a single case where a good big man developed into a franchise level talent which is what Utah needs right now. There is a talent gap between Favors and players like Reke or DMC. Favors has shown nothing at this point beyond elite level shot blocking in limited minutes. If Utah thinks they can build a contending level team starting Kantor and Favors drafting where they will likely be drafting for the foreseeable future, they have an excessive amount of faith in the ability to develop players. Even if Favors becomes Serge Ibaka, they still need Westbrook and Durant to be competitive and they won't draft those type of talents where they will be drafting in the future. As long as Utah realizes that fact, a deal is possible.

I think the Jazz are interested in building a team. You can spend the rest of your life looking for the next superstar, a term thats overused in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, if you find a potential superstar, you lock him up, but they don't come down the pike that often. I think of Favors as a player that can come close to bringing what Ibaka brings, and to me, thats a lot. In a way, Ibaka is a superstar at what he does. You can say that the Thunder will never win a championship without Durant or Westbrook, but you could also argue the neither of them could win a championship with Ibaka. They are in fact, a team!!! All the pieces fit together well. How many superstars does the Spurs have? How many does the Nuggets have? Duncan is hardly a superestar anymore, but he still a very good basketball player.

Now one can argue that Favors just finished hid 4th year in the league and has been in the league as long as Ibaka. But Ibaka is 2 years older and played in the spanish league against good competition. Favors made the mistake of going to Georgia Tech where he stagnated for a year and learned nothinig. If I'm the Jazz, I hang on to Favors. Maybe Kantor doesn't live up to expectations, but I believe Favors will.

 

[mac]

I think the Jazz are interested in building a team. You can spend the rest of your life looking for the next superstar, a term thats overused in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, if you find a potential superstar, you lock him up, but they don't come down the pike that often. I think of Favors as a player that can come close to bringing what Ibaka brings, and to me, thats a lot. In a way, Ibaka is a superstar at what he does. You can say that the Thunder will never win a championship without Durant or Westbrook, but you could also argue the neither of them could win a championship with Ibaka. They are in fact, a team!!! All the pieces fit together well. How many superstars does the Spurs have? How many does the Nuggets have? Duncan is hardly a superestar anymore, but he still a very good basketball player.

Now one can argue that Favors just finished hid 4th year in the league and has been in the league as long as Ibaka. But Ibaka is 2 years older and played in the spanish league against good competition. Favors made the mistake of going to Georgia Tech where he stagnated for a year and learned nothinig. If I'm the Jazz, I hang on to Favors. Maybe Kantor doesn't live up to expectations, but I believe Favors will.

Based on his stats this year he is arguably still playing at near superstar level. He put up 18pts 10 rebonds 2.6 blocks on 50% shooting in just 30mpg.
Cousins' stats were 17 points 10 rebounds 0.7 blocks on 46.5% shooting in roughly the same minutes.

 

[KingMilz]

I think of Favors as a player that can come close to bringing what Ibaka brings, and to me, thats a lot. In a way, Ibaka is a superstar at what he does. You can say that the Thunder will never win a championship without Durant or Westbrook, but you could also argue the neither of them could win a championship with Ibaka.

Ibaka has got to be the most overrated PF right now, the guys actual man to man defense sucks, can he block shots yeah but his defense when hes not flying in to where someone can't see him and blocking them is very average. On offense he can only make easy plays nothing even close to medium of hard. Give me Favors going forward over Ibaka anyday and yeah OKC could easily win the championship and someone like Paul Milsap over Ibaka. I can never get why people rate this guy so highly.

 

[upinsmoke]

Your on one andre Miller. Ibaka is a certified game changer without him okc is not a contender.

 

[KingMilz]

Your on one andre Miller. Ibaka is a certified game changer without him okc is not a contender.

Any team which has both Westbrook/Durrant is a contender, any above average PF could be great on that squad, what lets OKC down is there C and bench. Nick Collison other that blocking shots pretty much does everything else better than Ibaka.

Just wait in this years playoffs after hes finished going up against the likes of Greg Smith/Carlos Deflino and when he has to guard the likes of Bosh and other skilled PF's to see him get abused badly.

 

[KingsFanGER]

Any team which has both Westbrook/Durrant is a contender, any above average PF could be great on that squad, what lets OKC down is there C and bench. Nick Collison other that blocking shots pretty much does everything else better than Ibaka.

Just wait in this years playoffs after hes finished going up against the likes of Greg Smith/Carlos Deflino and when he has to guard the likes of Bosh and other skilled PF's to see him get abused badly.

Ibaka may not be the best man-defender, but he is a damn good help-defender for sure. This guy makes driving to the basket for any Guard or SF extremely difficult, which is crucial in these days of all the athletic, slashing PG/SG/SF. The oldfashioned 1vs1 low-post-game is nearly non-existent in the current NBA, cause the majoritiy of the PF relies on hitting Jumpshots more then attacking in the post, where they are more vurnerable to double-teams, so it s not important that Ibaka has issues against some PF/C. Whats important is that guys like Ibaka, Sandler are quick off their feet and can contest any drive to the basket. Nick Collison is not athletic enough to do that, while he is the superior post-defender.
Regarding Favors i think he is pretty similar to Ibaka. A long, athletic guy with great timing for blocks and rebounds. Given the minutes he will be a defensive force for the Jazz. In my opinion any contender needs such a defensive minded, hard working guy and these guys have their value, so that the Jazz will never trade Favors for role-players like JT or selfish SG like Thornton.

 

[KingMilz]

so it s not important that Ibaka has issues against some PF/C. Whats important is that guys like Ibaka, Sandler are quick off their feet and can contest any drive to the basket. Nick Collison is not athletic enough to do that, while he is the superior post-defender.

When in the Western Confernce in the playoffs you have players like M.Gasol,Z-Bo, Duncan/Splitter, Griffin, Dwight/P. Gasol, David Lee (got injured), Carl Landry yeah it is a big problem, its just the greatness of Durrant/WB overshadows it and than if the Thunder do make it to the finals he has to most likely deal with Bosh and thats a massacar waiting to happend so how is it not a problem? His defense is grossly overrated and most Thunder fans who I talk to say the same thing hes a overrated player. Give me good solid defense over blocks and steals anyday off the week. People who had this guy as one of the DPOY candidates seriously ethier have never watched him play defense other than his block shots highlights is Cousins a elite defender cause he gets tons of steals? NO.....

Again like I said just wait till they have to play a team with legit post options and not stone handed undersized stiffs in Greg Smith/Delfino. In saying that we would actually be a good fit next to Cousins but no way Thunder give him up for JT.

 

[KingsFanGER]

When in the Western Confernce in the playoffs you have players like M.Gasol,Z-Bo, Duncan/Splitter, Griffin, Dwight/P. Gasol, David Lee (got injured), Carl Landry yeah it is a big problem, its just the greatness of Durrant/WB overshadows it and than if the Thunder do make it to the finals he has to most likely deal with Bosh and thats a massacar waiting to happend so how is it not a problem? His defense is grossly overrated and most Thunder fans who I talk to say the same thing hes a overrated player. Give me good solid defense over blocks and steals anyday off the week. People who had this guy as one of the DPOY candidates seriously ethier have never watched him play defense other than his block shots highlights is Cousins a elite defender cause he gets tons of steals? NO.....

Again like I said just wait till they have to play a team with legit post options and not stone handed undersized stiffs in Greg Smith/Delfino. In saying that we would actually be a good fit next to Cousins but no way Thunder give him up for JT.

I m looking forward to see, how Ibaka does in those matchups, to see if it proofs your point. ;-)
I watched most of the Thunder Games this Season and so i have watched Ibaka play defense and thats why i think he is a weapon when it comes to stopping penetration. This guy just makes it extremely difficult to get quality shots off around the basket due to his presence alone. He might get overpowered by strong PF/C like Z-Bo, Griffin or Dwight but those are the few dangerous true post-players he will face during the playoffs. The majority of the big-men you named, including Bosh, is settling more for jumpshots created by penetration or P&R and Ibaka should be quick enough to handle that decently.
Like you said a player like Ibaka would be a good fit next to Cousins. Sadly those players have to much value too aquire them with a trade including JT or Thornton.

 

[KingMilz]

I m looking forward to see, how Ibaka does in those matchups, to see if it proofs your point. ;-)
I watched most of the Thunder Games this Season and so i have watched Ibaka play defense and thats why i think he is a weapon when it comes to stopping penetration. This guy just makes it extremely difficult to get quality shots off around the basket due to his presence alone. He might get overpowered by strong PF/C like Z-Bo, Griffin or Dwight but those are the few dangerous true post-players he will face during the playoffs. The majority of the big-men you named, including Bosh, is settling more for jumpshots created by penetration or P&R and Ibaka should be quick enough to handle that decently.
Like you said a player like Ibaka would be a good fit next to Cousins. Sadly those players have to much value too aquire them with a trade including JT or Thornton.

I agree with all of what you said there, I look forward also to seeing if he has improved when he comes up against better opposition

 

[mac]

I agree with all of what you said there, I look forward also to seeing if he has improved when he comes up against better opposition

The thing with good post players is that you aren't going to really stop them. The defender's job is just to make it as hard as he can for the offensive player to get good looks. I'm not sure if you've been watching the Lakers-Spurs series, but Matt Bonner of all people spent game 2 battling Dwight Howard and did a pretty darn good job. Got Howard to pick up a couple of offensive fouls and even a technical. And this is Matt Bonner we're talking about. You know, run around stay at the 3 point line Matt Bonner? As KingsfanGER has mentioned, Ibaka's true strength lies in his ability to stop guards from getting easy looks around the rim. Both Cousins and Evans have repeatedly been destroyed by Ibaka's shotblocking ability. Ibaka is only going to face one of Griffin or Z-Bo, and then probably Duncan. Denver and GS don't have good post players, and Ibaka will be very useful helping on both those teams' guard penetration.

Lastly comes Miami or perhaps Indiana. Again, no post threat. The last time Chris Bosh caught a ball in the low block he was in Toronto lol.

 

[KingMilz]

The thing with good post players is that you aren't going to really stop them. The defender's job is just to make it as hard as he can for the offensive player to get good looks. I'm not sure if you've been watching the Lakers-Spurs series, but Matt Bonner of all people spent game 2 battling Dwight Howard and did a pretty darn good job. Got Howard to pick up a couple of offensive fouls and even a technical. And this is Matt Bonner we're talking about. You know, run around stay at the 3 point line Matt Bonner? As KingsfanGER has mentioned, Ibaka's true strength lies in his ability to stop guards from getting easy looks around the rim. Both Cousins and Evans have repeatedly been destroyed by Ibaka's shotblocking ability. Ibaka is only going to face one of Griffin or Z-Bo, and then probably Duncan. Denver and GS don't have good post players, and Ibaka will be very useful helping on both those teams' guard penetration.

Lastly comes Miami or perhaps Indiana. Again, no post threat. The last time Chris Bosh caught a ball in the low block he was in Toronto lol.

We will see now with Westbrook out how good Ibaka really is, when I say hes overrated people were calling for him to be a All-Star and all this and that well lets see now how he is without one of there main guys out there. I really hope Ibaka does prove me wrong but theres really nothing about his game that impresses me tbh.

 

[mac]

We will see now with Westbrook out how good Ibaka really is, when I say hes overrated people were calling for him to be a All-Star and all this and that well lets see now how he is without one of there main guys out there. I really hope Ibaka does prove me wrong but theres really nothing about his game that impresses me tbh.

Well nobody here is talking about him being an all-star. We were talking about his impact on the defensive end of the floor, which you said was overrated. Westbrook going out doesn't change the impact that Ibaka will have or should have. The only way to assess Ibaka's impact is for Ibaka to go down, and then watch the impact that it has on the Thunder. People are saying that the Thunder don't win without Ibaka, not that they will win without Westbrook. You've jumped from criticizing his value as a defensive player to now implying that others say his value is on the offensive end of the court.

 

[bajaden]

Well nobody here is talking about him being an all-star. We were talking about his impact on the defensive end of the floor, which you said was overrated. Westbrook going out doesn't change the impact that Ibaka will have or should have. The only way to assess Ibaka's impact is for Ibaka to go down, and then watch the impact that it has on the Thunder. People are saying that the Thunder don't win without Ibaka, not that they will win without Westbrook. You've jumped from criticizing his value as a defensive player to now implying that others say his value is on the offensive end of the court.

For what its worth, I agree with you. By the way, hows the weather in Singapore? Been pretty good here in baja.

 

[mac]

For what its worth, I agree with you. By the way, hows the weather in Singapore? Been pretty good here in baja.

Alternating between hot (as it always is) and recently we've been getting rather heavy rain every other day, which is strange this time of year. Good to hear it's going well in baja

 

[KingMilz]

Well nobody here is talking about him being an all-star. We were talking about his impact on the defensive end of the floor, which you said was overrated. Westbrook going out doesn't change the impact that Ibaka will have or should have. The only way to assess Ibaka's impact is for Ibaka to go down, and then watch the impact that it has on the Thunder. People are saying that the Thunder don't win without Ibaka, not that they will win without Westbrook. You've jumped from criticizing his value as a defensive player to now implying that others say his value is on the offensive end of the court.

The only reason to me his defense is overrated is cause people are talking about him being a top DPOY which hes not even close to being, the best defenders are all round defenders not just ones that block shots, and there was plenty of talk about him making the All-Star team prior to the game which was a complete joke considering how stacked the PF/SF position is in the West.

 

[mac]

The only reason to me his defense is overrated is cause people are talking about him being a top DPOY which hes not even close to being, the best defenders are all round defenders not just ones that block shots, and there was plenty of talk about him making the All-Star team prior to the game which was a complete joke considering how stacked the PF/SF position is in the West.

Again, your claim that he is not an all-round defender is just weird. The fact is that he makes a huge impact on the defensive end of the floor, of which a large amount can be attributed to his shotblocking ability. He should very well be in the discussion for DPOY.

 

[KingMilz]

Again, your claim that he is not an all-round defender is just weird. The fact is that he makes a huge impact on the defensive end of the floor, of which a large amount can be attributed to his shotblocking ability. He should very well be in the discussion for DPOY.

I guess DeAndre Jordan should be in the discussion as well than since he blocks shots to......................................

 

[mac]

I guess DeAndre Jordan should be in the discussion as well than since he blocks shots to......................................

My goodness. It's not just about blocking shots, agreed. But the point is that Ibaka does more than just block shots. Now you can disagree on that if you want, but then him being over rated just becomes your personal opinion, which doesn't seem to be one that is shared amongst many. It's just like the guy who said that Kobe is not one of the best ever to play the game of basketball. If you're seeing something different from the rest of the world and have nothing to back it up then there's not much point in trying to discuss it is there?

 

[KingMilz]

My goodness. It's not just about blocking shots, agreed. But the point is that Ibaka does more than just block shots. Now you can disagree on that if you want, but then him being over rated just becomes your personal opinion, which doesn't seem to be one that is shared amongst many. It's just like the guy who said that Kobe is not one of the best ever to play the game of basketball. If you're seeing something different from the rest of the world and have nothing to back it up then there's not much point in trying to discuss it is there?

You see his epic tip in in game 4? Great player lmao

 

[mac]

You see his epic tip in in game 4? Great player lmao

Again, what the **** does that play have to do with his defense? Dude you've lost me. You clearly either don't understand English or are just plain stupid or something.

 

[KingMilz]

Again, what the **** does that play have to do with his defense? Dude you've lost me. You clearly either don't understand English or are just plain stupid or something.

Dude his defense again is amazingly overrated just like he is as a player, hes not even the best defender on his own team and people are talking like hes a DOPY candidate. I think where we disagree on is that I don't beleive he does anything on defense other than block shots (which hes good at no doubt), but that to me does not make him an amazing defender. His impact is largely overrated and all his weaknesses are masked by playing with Westbrook/Durrant on top of that hes got Perkins who yeah is a stiff but a above average defenseive centre, Westbrook/Thabo are both excellent for the most part on D and Durrant ain't bad himself with his length and quickness. The whole OKC defense is way above average which also helps Ibaka a lot there bench has Collison, Liggins, Brewer and Jackson who are all good defenders.

Tbh I don't even think hes a top 2 defender on his own team let alone in the whole NBA, I'm not saying hes a terrible player I just think hes in a perfect situation (good for him) and people are tending to overrate what he brings, you could replace Ibaka with 10-15 other PF's and OKC would be just as good if not better.

For me DPOY candidates are guys like MGasol (well done big fella for winning it, the man is a delight to watch), Duncan, Hibbert, T Allen, Iggy, Noah, and a few others I can't think of right now, they all provide elite man to man D while being able to cause turnovers, Ibaka can only do the latter part.

 

[mac]

Dude his defense again is amazingly overrated just like he is as a player, hes not even the best defender on his own team and people are talking like hes a DOPY candidate. I think where we disagree on is that I don't beleive he does anything on defense other than block shots (which hes good at no doubt), but that to me does not make him an amazing defender. His impact is largely overrated and all his weaknesses are masked by playing with Westbrook/Durrant on top of that hes got Perkins who yeah is a stiff but a above average defenseive centre, Westbrook/Thabo are both excellent for the most part on D and Durrant ain't bad himself with his length and quickness. The whole OKC defense is way above average which also helps Ibaka a lot there bench has Collison, Liggins, Brewer and Jackson who are all good defenders.

Tbh I don't even think hes a top 2 defender on his own team let alone in the whole NBA, I'm not saying hes a terrible player I just think hes in a perfect situation (good for him) and people are tending to overrate what he brings, you could replace Ibaka with 10-15 other PF's and OKC would be just as good if not better.

For me DPOY candidates are guys like MGasol (well done big fella for winning it, the man is a delight to watch), Duncan, Hibbert, T Allen, Iggy, Noah, and a few others I can't think of right now, they all provide elite man to man D while being able to cause turnovers, Ibaka can only do the latter part.

You argue that Ibaka's impact on defense is overstated because "The whole OKC defense is way above average which also helps Ibaka" but think it's fine that Marc Gasol can be a DPOY winner when one of your own DPOY candidates Tony Allen is on his team. Tayshaun Prince is a good defender as well. Your logic is ... "flawless". You still haven't proved anything about why Ibaka's defense is overrated. Everything you've said is just your opinion out of thin air. I can just as easily say that Duncan, Hibbert, Iggy, Noah etc. all have team mates that are good defenders. If you want to prove a point that is contrary to popular opinion, how about actually showing us why you think Ibaka is a poor man defender with some stats or something?

 

[KingMilz]

You argue that Ibaka's impact on defense is overstated because "The whole OKC defense is way above average which also helps Ibaka" but think it's fine that Marc Gasol can be a DPOY winner when one of your own DPOY candidates Tony Allen is on his team. Tayshaun Prince is a good defender as well. Your logic is ... "flawless". You still haven't proved anything about why Ibaka's defense is overrated. Everything you've said is just your opinion out of thin air. I can just as easily say that Duncan, Hibbert, Iggy, Noah etc. all have team mates that are good defenders. If you want to prove a point that is contrary to popular opinion, how about actually showing us why you think Ibaka is a poor man defender with some stats or something?

I clearly stated that all those guys are elite man to man defenders while being able to force turnovers throught block/steals/good defensive rotation Ibaka is simply not a elite man to man defender or even a above average one. I base things of watching players not stats so I can't really give you a stat that proves that tbh. Hes not in the top tier of defenders in the NBA imo and all those people are, as well as some others are far better and don't get half the credit Ibaka does.

 

[mac]

I clearly stated that all those guys are elite man to man defenders while being able to force turnovers throught block/steals/good defensive rotation Ibaka is simply not a elite man to man defender or even a above average one. I base things of watching players not stats so I can't really give you a stat that proves that tbh. Hes not in the top tier of defenders in the NBA imo and all those people are, as well as some others are far better and don't get half the credit Ibaka does.

Clearly stating something not based on anything but your own opinion does not lend an argument much credibility. Are you saying that all the other people who watch the Thunder and Ibaka aren't right but you are? If you've got nothing to back your argument up other than personal opinion then don't act as if your opinion is fact and criticize others for thinking otherwise.

 

[KingMilz]

Clearly stating something not based on anything but your own opinion does not lend an argument much credibility. Are you saying that all the other people who watch the Thunder and Ibaka aren't right but you are? If you've got nothing to back your argument up other than personal opinion then don't act as if your opinion is fact and criticize others for thinking otherwise.

A lot of Thunder fans I talk to on other forums and people I play ball in real life feel the same about Ibaka overall and on D, The only person I crticized was the one who said without Ibaka the Thunder are not a contender which is a joke. You can surrond Durrant/Westbrook with garbage and they will always be in the playoffs and there abouts.

I really thought it was common knowledge that Ibaka's man to man D left a lot to desired but I guess maybe not, again we will let the rest of the playoffs ethier prove me wrong or you right and I really do hope Ibaka is better than I think but I just have not seen it.

 

[Darth Divac]

A lot of Thunder fans I talk to on other forums and people I play ball in real life feel the same about Ibaka overall and on D, The only person I crticized was the one who said without Ibaka the Thunder are not a contender which is a joke. You can surrond Durrant/Westbrook with garbage and they will always be in the playoffs and there abouts.

I really thought it was common knowledge that Ibaka's man to man D left a lot to desired but I guess maybe not, again we will let the rest of the playoffs ethier prove me wrong or you right and I really do hope Ibaka is better than I think but I just have not seen it.

I always thought that they should've kept Harden instead of Ibaka. Harden, as we've seen this year, is a force on defense, unlike most of his team. I keep wondering why they started Thabo over him, as Harden is almost as good on defense and posses offensive skills that Sefolosha can only dream of.

 

[mac]

I always thought that they should've kept Harden instead of Ibaka. Harden, as we've seen this year, is a force on defense, unlike most of his team. I keep wondering why they started Thabo over him, as Harden is almost as good on defense and posses offensive skills that Sefolosha can only dream of.

Err... 1) contract. 2) They don't need any more perimeter offense, or whatever they got back in Martin was enough. 3) There is only one ball to go around, and you don't pay a guy max money to just stand there and hit open 3s created by Durant and Westbrook.

 

[KingMilz]

Err... 1) contract. 2) They don't need any more perimeter offense, or whatever they got back in Martin was enough. 3) There is only one ball to go around, and you don't pay a guy max money to just stand there and hit open 3s created by Durant and Westbrook.

1).Harden is far harder to replace than Ibaka
2). If they don't pay Ibaka they could have given Harden the extra 5mil or whatever he wanted and signed a shot-blocking PF/C
3). Them contending for a championship became so much harder with Ibaka being there 3rd best player now
4). They do need more perimeter offense when it comes to playmaking and they never got anyone who could do that, he was there PG a lot of the time and the reason they beat the Spurs 4-2

Looking back at it only a idiot would have kept Ibaka over Harden but its easy to look back now and say that but If you were to tell me the 3rd best player on your team would be Harden I would say wow you got a serious shot at winning a title I would not say the same if you said Ibaka was. I think in time OKC will see they overrated/overpaid both Ibaka & Perkins which will most likely result in costing them 1-2 championships over the next 3-5 years unless they pull of some good trade or draft pick.

Althought I disagree with Darth on Harden's D its been fairly average this year but that has a lot to do with him having to literally do everything on offense and carry a so so team to the playoffs and the style Houston plays.

 

[KingMilz]

OKC 0-2 with Ibaka as there #2 player against an 8th seed

Dude has not made anything contested or that he created for himself he was 7/7 on wide open dunks and tip in's (at least he learnt how to make those fromt he previous game) tho which is really not impressive, didn't really impact the games with his D ethier, Houston was slicing to the rim at will. Dude can't even score over Harden in the post and yet they decided to keep him over Harden..................

 

[Bricklayer]

Ibaka is not the one missing in action in that series. That label, alas, falls on somebody a little closer to home.