Trade Thornton & Thompson?

[Darth Divac]

This is something that's been nagging me for a while. It's clear that JT is a nice utility big, and Marcus Thornton is an above average talent at the 2, but neither is a very good fit for this roster. Both have enough trade value that we could get some (a) nice player in return. Is there anyone in specific you'd target?


I think we could package JT, MT, and a pick in exchange for Andrei Kirilenko and Derrick Williams from Minnesota.

 

[kingwin]

i dont think we should trade either of them... i think JT is the perfect 3rd big(that was prolly the best we've been with our bigs rotation, with sammy D next to cousins and jt coming off the bench, we would dominate on the boards) he can play inside or outside, is a decent rebounder;could be better, plays ok to below avg defense and can shoot that 15 - 17 foot jumpshot. hes just not a starter and should not be, and im not sure ppat is a starter bt his ability to shoot 3's gives more spacing and hes a better defender imo...bt im sure we need a shot blocker starting next to cousins( CHUCK OVER SAMMY D SMDH)....and i think thorton is a perfect 6th man and was just managed badly, i mean we seen what he could do, hes instant offense and i think he slowly bought into that role, bt i dont want him to buy into that role, look at guys like jason terry or ginobli, they live and die in that role and i think if we start winning i marcus will to and thrive..and both of their contracts arent terrible...TRADE IT PLEASE

 

[hrdboild]

I've been advocating trading these two as a package deal or individually since late last season when it was clear how much further we have to go in our rebuilding effort. Both were signed under the auspices of being a competitive team but their value to a rebuilding team is probably best maximized by trading them for a young player or players that fill needs for us -- namely defense in the post and on the wing, SF position, and potentially help at PG. Thompson showed this season I think that he tops out as a third big, not as a starter. He's just too erratic and inconsistent. Thornton is always going to be able to fill it up but the rest of his game seems to have regressed since his breakout at the end of the '10-'11 season.

I suppose you could wait to see if a new coach can find a better fit for them. There is a line of thinking that we already have enough talent to be competitive with a decent coach (reinforced by games like DMC's end of the season dunk party) but realistically I think we still have too far to go to be banking on backups and role-players as essential building blocks. I don't deny that both of them have been solid contributors for us but we desperately need an identity, some swagger, a balanced roster, help defensively. I could go on. I'm operating under the assumption that Cousins and Evans are still our building blocks though. If we're going to jettison one of those two than potentially one of Thompson or Thornton would take on more responsibility in the rotation.

 

[sidney]

This is something that's been nagging me for a while. It's clear that JT is a nice utility big, and Marcus Thornton is an above average talent at the 2, but neither is a very good fit for this roster. Both have enough trade value that we could get some (a) nice player in return. Is there anyone in specific you'd target?


I think we could package JT, MT, and a pick in exchange for Andrei Kirilenko and Derrick Williams from Minnesota.

Gortat is probably the one guy I'd target. Phoenix would be a good spot for JT and MT as well. Keep Patterson and have a Cousins/Gortat/Patterson primary rotation up front.

 

[The Hammer]

I've never understood the foregone conclusion that we should trade Thornton. The only argument that I've heard is that he doesn't fit. To me, that hasn't been proven. Let's all remember that this team hasn't seen a decent coach in what, five years? We were all enamored with Thornton when we first got him, maybe because we only gave up Landry. But the guy can play. What do people think he's done to play his way off the team? He's not that bad defensively.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Gortat is probably the one guy I'd target. Phoenix would be a good spot for JT and MT as well. Keep Patterson and have a Cousins/Gortat/Patterson primary rotation up front.

That'd be perfect! I really like that big man rotation.

I wonder what would we have to throw in to get Dudley as well? He seems like an ideal SF for us. JT and MT for Gortat and Dudley works, salary wise, but I imagine PHX will want more. They did just fire their GM, I think, so the new guy may be looking to start over/shake things up.

 

[hrdboild]

I've never understood the foregone conclusion that we should trade Thornton. The only argument that I've heard is that he doesn't fit. To me, that hasn't been proven. Let's all remember that this team hasn't seen a decent coach in what, five years? We were all enamored with Thornton when we first got him, maybe because we only gave up Landry. But the guy can play. What do people think he's done to play his way off the team? He's not that bad defensively.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think he's played his way off the team. I think he's a proven 20ppg scorer at the SG position and given the dearth of quality SGs in the league right now, that represents one of the only valuable commodities we have to offer. As for the why trade him argument, it's not any one thing. Partially it's because Jimmer, IT, and Thornton are redundant as undersized shooting guards who like to dominate the ball and shoot a lot of shots. Partially it's because Thornton's contract is eating up a large chunk of our salary cap space for production that doesn't directly translate to wins (not his fault, but with Tyreke and DeMarcus demanding a lot of shots and scoring more efficiently, there is less need for another scorer whereas our defense is worst in the league bad and Thornton holds his own there but he's not usually a difference maker). But mainly for me it's opportunity. If you're trying to construct a trade for a valuable player rather than someone else's castoffs you have to give up something valuable in return. A solid third big who can give you starter quality production some of the time at either front court position has value in the league as does a 20ppg guard who can score from anywhere on the floor when he gets hot.

I don't think we need to trade either of these guys, but we can't fill all of our needs through the draft and we might be able to entice a mid-level guy that nobody else wants all that bad, but every other FA is going to a contender or at least a franchise with a better reputation. If Thornton could play the SF position it would be a different story. Maybe if we draft one of the few SFs available and a new coach finds a better role for MT which justifies the contract then he could become too important to trade. I'm not ruling out that possibility, I just hate being passive.

 

[Chupacabra]

I would definitely trade Thompson and Thornton if it meant i could acquire a 1st or or really good second tear defensive specialist. What worries me about this trade is redundancy. Trading a scorer for a scorer so to speak. If we make the trade to fill a NEED then im all for it. Id honestly rather put replace Thornton with IT in this package. I value Thorntons ability to make big shots. I think he has more of that ability than IT.

 

[Bricklayer]

This is something that's been nagging me for a while. It's clear that JT is a nice utility big, and Marcus Thornton is an above average talent at the 2, but neither is a very good fit for this roster. Both have enough trade value that we could get some (a) nice player in return. Is there anyone in specific you'd target?


I think we could package JT, MT, and a pick in exchange for Andrei Kirilenko and Derrick Williams from Minnesota.

While I agree that they both may be square pegs, and possibly our two most obvious/talented spare pieces on midrange contracts that could net something, that's not exactly the package I would be after.

 

[jalfa]

That'd be perfect! I really like that big man rotation.

I wonder what would we have to throw in to get Dudley as well? He seems like an ideal SF for us. JT and MT for Gortat and Dudley works, salary wise, but I imagine PHX will want more. They did just fire their GM, I think, so the new guy may be looking to start over/shake things up.

well, they would definitely be doing it with the pick involved. they get a new gm, who's probably going to try and put his stamp on this team and will be going for a rebuild. acquiring two first round picks in a draft is going to look perfectly acceptable, even if they'd have to take on extra salary. they'd also be getting rid of a malcontent and a guy coming off a down year (although it wasn't that bad, honestly).

so getting this deal done should be possible. maybe it even works with IT/Jimmer instead of the pick, the thing is just that, once the Kings put the pick into the package, it's a too steep price for us, once it gets dropped in favour of IT or Jimmer, they would probably not do it. need to wait for the lottery first, to have a better handle on how valuable that pick is (nevermind that in the meantime there might be news that would make this whole thing completely uninteresting anyway).

 

[ParniValjak]

Thornton could get us the type of player that fills our need so he is the obvious trade bait here.

JT is an ideal 3rd big/1st big off the bench. He can give you a really solid 25 minutes split at PF and C and he is the type of a role player that every team would like to have. I would personally keep him and find that ever elusive shot blocker/interior defensive anchor to play next to Cousins.

Then sign another C as a 4th big (eg Aldrich) and some developing young prospect as the 5th big and the frontcourt rotation is pretty much set! The full sized frontcourt rotation of rookie Cousins, Dalembert and JT were kicking butts and taking names a couple of years back after the Landry/Thornton trade. I would like to re-create something like that again where all 3 guys are at least 6'10" and srrong rebounded who are able to play with each other.

Whether we use Thornton to get that player or we sign him up and use Thornton to get the SF, I am not fussed but we need to do something.

Persoanlly, I would keep Cousins, Evans and JT and make everyone else expandable. I wouldn't mind somehow getting Dudley and would absolutely LOVE to get Favors from Utah. Cousins/Favors/JT frontcourt rotation would be INSANE!

 

[jalfa]

Thornton could get us the type of player that fills our need so he is the obvious trade bait here.

JT is an ideal 3rd big/1st big off the bench. He can give you a really solid 25 minutes split at PF and C and he is the type of a role player that every team would like to have. I would personally keep him and find that ever elusive shot blocker/interior defensive anchor to play next to Cousins.

Then sign another C as a 4th big (eg Aldrich) and some developing young prospect as the 5th big and the frontcourt rotation is pretty much set! The full sized frontcourt rotation of rookie Cousins, Dalembert and JT were kicking butts and taking names a couple of years back after the Landry/Thornton trade. I would like to re-create something like that again where all 3 guys are at least 6'10" and srrong rebounded who are able to play with each other.

Whether we use Thornton to get that player or we sign him up and use Thornton to get the SF, I am not fussed but we need to do something.

Persoanlly, I would keep Cousins, Evans and JT and make everyone else expandable. I wouldn't mind somehow getting Dudley and would absolutely LOVE to get Favors from Utah. Cousins/Favors/JT frontcourt rotation would be INSANE!

preeeetty sure that getting Favors is a non-starter. not too familiar with the current thinking of the fo, but it wouldn't surprise me if they resigned neither Millsap nor Jefferson and just rolled with a Favors/Kanter frontline.

generally all the ideal complements to Cuz, guys like Ibaka/Sanders/Favors/Drummond/Henson (and a solid "goddamnit, Geoff!" on the last two names), are just quite simply unobtainable. from the standpoint of shifting Cuz to the PF and getting a shotblocking/defensive C, Dalembert could be a nice stopgap, but getting Gortat/Dudley is probably as close to a homerun as you're gonna get, which is why I'd endorse a trade for them, if the pick doesn't jump into the top3.

 

[KingMilz]

Thornton is a perfect 6th man if he gets consistant mins just look at guys like Jamal Crawford/Kevin Martin, JT imo is expandable with Patterson on the roster, we just need to get a quailty starting PG/SF tho.

 

[jalfa]

Thornton is a perfect 6th man if he gets consistant mins just look at guys like Jamal Crawford/Kevin Martin, JT imo is expandable with Patterson on the roster, we just need to get a quailty starting PG/SF tho.

It starts getting difficult to find appropriate minutes for MT, as long as you don't start playing him with Reke. We don't have sufficient sample size to know if it works, but it was kinda iffy when we did.

 

[bajaden]

This is something that's been nagging me for a while. It's clear that JT is a nice utility big, and Marcus Thornton is an above average talent at the 2, but neither is a very good fit for this roster. Both have enough trade value that we could get some (a) nice player in return. Is there anyone in specific you'd target?


I think we could package JT, MT, and a pick in exchange for Andrei Kirilenko and Derrick Williams from Minnesota.

I totally disagree on Thompson. He's a great fit for this team. His only problem is that he should be the third big off the bench. He seldom gets injured, and he can play both PF and Center. He doesn't demand the ball. He's just a good blue collar rotational player that every team needs. Thornton is another story altogether. I like Thornton, but SG's of his calibar are a dime a dozen. I know a lot of folks would disagree, but I can name at least 4 or 5 players coming out of college that could easily grow into the same role, and maybe be better than Thornton.

That doesn't mean I want to get rid of him, it just means he is more easily replaced. So for the right deal, yes, I would trade him. Also, Kirilenko is an unrestricted free agent. So it would be very hard to trade for him. There was a time on this fourm when people did their homework before posting.

 

[sidney]

There is a lot to like about JT which is why he has trade value. However, he does not spread the floor for Cousins and Evans to work inside nor is he a defensive anchor. That's why I'd target a Gortat package with JT since that anchor role is vacant and essential.

I love Thornton's fire but he's just underutilized with Tyreke in front of him. Give Jimmer those backup SG minutes and see if we can get some value back for Thornton.

 

[Darth Divac]

I totally disagree on Thompson. He's a great fit for this team. His only problem is that he should be the third big off the bench. He seldom gets injured, and he can play both PF and Center. He doesn't demand the ball. He's just a good blue collar rotational player that every team needs. Thornton is another story altogether. I like Thornton, but SG's of his calibar are a dime a dozen. I know a lot of folks would disagree, but I can name at least 4 or 5 players coming out of college that could easily grow into the same role, and maybe be better than Thornton.

That doesn't mean I want to get rid of him, it just means he is more easily replaced. So for the right deal, yes, I would trade him. Also, Kirilenko is an unrestricted free agent. So it would be very hard to trade for him. There was a time on this fourm when people did their homework before posting.

You're quite right, I didn't do my homework on that one....

 

[DesertFox]

What I like about JT is you can match him up with any player and he can fit, maybe not perfectly, but he will adjust for the team.

While it is foolish to feature him in the post too often with Cuz next to him, few teams have 2 bigs who can score in the post better than JT. He has enough size to play center against most lineups, and can take advantage of a a small-ball 4 in the post.

JT is by no means a stretch 4, but he can hit those long 2's, and can stay in front of athletic 4's.

And although he has struggled this year, JT has in the past shown himself to be very good on the offensive glass, and solid on the defensive glass.


MT on the other hand, has a very specific skill set, and he is being paid very well to do what 4 other guards can do with similar efficiency.

 

[KingsFanGER]

Thornton: Nothing too special for a NBA caliber SG. He has plenty of weaknesses in his game: undersized, selfish, bad ballhandler, bad passer, bad courtvision, bad decisionmaking, bad defense. I m sick of watching Thornton play for the Kings and he would be the first player of the current roster i would trade. You can replace him with any SG able to hit open Jumpshots from long range and give the role to provide this instant offensive spark from the bench to IT.

Thompson: I like Thompson, but he provides nothing that Patterson doesnt bring to the team. So if you keep Patterson there is no reason to keep Thompson and vice versa. Hopefully one of the two can be traded to get some defensive specialist in return.

 

[The_Jamal]

Both guys have value around the league and we should absolutely look to deal both of them. Reke's best position is at SG: no if's, ands, or buts. Add in the fact IT can do Thornton better than Thornton can and he's absolutely an expendable piece. JT is the same way. Valuable energy big with lots of great qualities, but nothing that Ppat can not do at a higher level for cheaper. Even rebounding, the only "strength" that JT can boast over Ppat was drastically smaller to end the year.

 

[jalfa]

Both guys have value around the league and we should absolutely look to deal both of them. Reke's best position is at SG: no if's, ands, or buts. Add in the fact IT can do Thornton better than Thornton can and he's absolutely an expendable piece. JT is the same way. Valuable energy big with lots of great qualities, but nothing that Ppat can not do at a higher level for cheaper. Even rebounding, the only "strength" that JT can boast over Ppat was drastically smaller to end the year.

agreed with all of this. you could just simply not resign Patterson, but that'd be letting a real asset go to waste and an s&t never nets as much of a return value as would've been appropriate. that's why I'm in favour of resigning 2pat and trading Thompson. if you keep both, they're kind of standing in each other's way and neither of them is an ideal complement to Cuz, so you have to let go of one and since I believe that 2pat works better with Cuz and JT is better asset to trade that's the way the Kings should go. breaks my heart too, JT seems to be a really good dude and is completely at home in Sacramento. loves the fans, the fans love him and everything.

 

[upinsmoke]

Jt+mt+1st should net us a quality player ideally a sf.

 

[Kingster]

Thornton could get us the type of player that fills our need so he is the obvious trade bait here.

JT is an ideal 3rd big/1st big off the bench. He can give you a really solid 25 minutes split at PF and C and he is the type of a role player that every team would like to have. I would personally keep him and find that ever elusive shot blocker/interior defensive anchor to play next to Cousins.

Then sign another C as a 4th big (eg Aldrich) and some developing young prospect as the 5th big and the frontcourt rotation is pretty much set! The full sized frontcourt rotation of rookie Cousins, Dalembert and JT were kicking butts and taking names a couple of years back after the Landry/Thornton trade. I would like to re-create something like that again where all 3 guys are at least 6'10" and srrong rebounded who are able to play with each other.

Whether we use Thornton to get that player or we sign him up and use Thornton to get the SF, I am not fussed but we need to do something.

Persoanlly, I would keep Cousins, Evans and JT and make everyone else expandable. I wouldn't mind somehow getting Dudley and would absolutely LOVE to get Favors from Utah. Cousins/Favors/JT frontcourt rotation would be INSANE!

Nope. You've got to give up Tyreke to get Favors. Otherwise, no deal. Tyreke has played his best against Utah. Utah desperately needs help at guard to balance the roster. So do you make the deal? Or no?

 

[Padrino]

Nope. You've got to give up Tyreke to get Favors. Otherwise, no deal. Tyreke has played his best against Utah. Utah desperately needs help at guard to balance the roster. So do you make the deal? Or no?

uhm... why? because you would prefer it that way?



besides, tyreke evans is a restricted free agent this offseason. barring a sign-and-trade scenario (which is fairly unlikely given the parameters of the new CBA), tyreke is either re-signing with the kings, or signing elsewhere. but he's not trade bait...

and if utah desperately needs help at the guard positions to balance their roster, then marcus thornton's their man. you don't part with tyreke evans for derrick favors when you can build an attractive package without him. what kind of armchair gm are you, exactly? the goal is to realistically acquire useful assets while giving up as few as possible...

 

[DesertFox]

uhm... why? because you would prefer it that way?



besides, tyreke evans is a restricted free agent this offseason. barring a sign-and-trade scenario (which is fairly unlikely given the parameters of the new CBA), tyreke is either re-signing with the kings, or signing elsewhere. but he's not trade bait...

and if utah desperately needs help at the guard positions to balance their roster, then marcus thornton's their man. you don't part with tyreke evans for derrick favors when you can build an attractive package without him. what kind of armchair gm are you, exactly? the goal is to realistically acquire useful assets while giving up as few as possible...

Marcus Thornton is not going to get Derrick Favors. Besides Cuz (which would be unrealistic for both sides), Reke is the only player that would start a talk. I doubt MT could even get back Milsap or Jefferson.

If you want to come up with dream trades, go ahead and imagine a package led by MT would net Favors. I would do that trade yesterday, and throw in IT, a 1st, and take back Marvin William's big contract.

 

[Padrino]

Marcus Thornton is not going to get Derrick Favors. Besides Cuz (which would be unrealistic for both sides), Reke is the only player that would start a talk. I doubt MT could even get back Milsap or Jefferson.

If you want to come up with dream trades, go ahead and imagine a package led by MT would net Favors. I would do that trade yesterday, and throw in IT, a 1st, and take back Marvin William's big contract.

no, marcus thornton doesn't bring back derrick favors. but a package that includes marcus thornton, any other combination of kings outside of cousins and evans, and draft picks could, in theory, get the job done. favors has looked good in limited minutes thus far in his career, but he remains an unproven commodity. such players are sold low when they are traded, particularly when their contract is at rookie scale. it's hard to get back "value" when "potential" is the operative word on either side of the equation. the more moot point is that utah would be looking to unload milsap or jefferson so they can move forward with favors and kanter, so, even though favors could be had theoretically at cost, given the recent history of transactions across the league, you'd have to buy high given utah's desire to keep him. takes two to tango, and all that. and i wouldn't buy high on derrick favors at this stage of his career...

 

[Arkitect]

Derrick Favors is JT with shot blocking. Which is pretty much exactly what we need. He is at best a super role player. My only question is if Favors is good enough to anchor a defense. We need a defensive anchor next to Cuz or we might as well trade Cuz because we aren't going anywhere without it. I have no doubt we could get Favors if we wanted. The thing about Utah is they do not have a super star or any players that have superstar potential. At best, they are a 6th seed if they wait for all of their players to mature. For a team in that position, the only hope is to hit the jackpot with a high draft pick. The only way to get high draft picks is suck or to trade assets in return for lottery draft picks which could have superstar potential. The fact that we have a high first and some decent contracts gives us an advantage in trading with teams like Utah. An advantage we wasted the last two years.

 

[upinsmoke]

Jazz are NOT trading Favors to us for anything less than dmc or #13. Next topic.

 

[bajaden]

Derrick Favors is JT with shot blocking. Which is pretty much exactly what we need. He is at best a super role player. My only question is if Favors is good enough to anchor a defense. We need a defensive anchor next to Cuz or we might as well trade Cuz because we aren't going anywhere without it. I have no doubt we could get Favors if we wanted. The thing about Utah is they do not have a super star or any players that have superstar potential. At best, they are a 6th seed if they wait for all of their players to mature. For a team in that position, the only hope is to hit the jackpot with a high draft pick. The only way to get high draft picks is suck or to trade assets in return for lottery draft picks which could have superstar potential. The fact that we have a high first and some decent contracts gives us an advantage in trading with teams like Utah. An advantage we wasted the last two years.

So why is it that you see Favors as a role player only? I'm just amazed how people come to these conclusions. Based on what? His current record. Lets remember that he's had to play behind Jefferson and Millsap since he's been there. While they may not be considered superstars, both are dammed good players. I've sais many times that it takes a big sometimes 3 or 4 years to finally reach his potential, and Favors has only averaged around 22 minutes a game. He averaged 1.7 blks in that time this season. Adjust that out to 32 or 34 minutes, and he probably at a 2.2 to 2.5 blocks a game rate, which is very good for a PF in the league.

In short, I don't think we've seen all there is to see from Favors, and I would love to have him on our team. I seriously doubt that the Jazz want to move him. They see Favors and Kantor as their future frontcourt. If, and its a big if, they were willing to trade him, I think either Patterson or JT would have to be part of the deal. JT's salary comes the closest to matching, so it would probably have to be him. If we were to throw Jimmer into the deal, that might intice them, since Jimmer is almost god like in Utah. However, I doubt they'd be interested.

 

[Arkitect]

So why is it that you see Favors as a role player only? I'm just amazed how people come to these conclusions. Based on what? His current record. Lets remember that he's had to play behind Jefferson and Millsap since he's been there. While they may not be considered superstars, both are dammed good players. I've sais many times that it takes a big sometimes 3 or 4 years to finally reach his potential, and Favors has only averaged around 22 minutes a game. He averaged 1.7 blks in that time this season. Adjust that out to 32 or 34 minutes, and he probably at a 2.2 to 2.5 blocks a game rate, which is very good for a PF in the league.

In short, I don't think we've seen all there is to see from Favors, and I would love to have him on our team. I seriously doubt that the Jazz want to move him. They see Favors and Kantor as their future frontcourt. If, and its a big if, they were willing to trade him, I think either Patterson or JT would have to be part of the deal. JT's salary comes the closest to matching, so it would probably have to be him. If we were to throw Jimmer into the deal, that might intice them, since Jimmer is almost god like in Utah. However, I doubt they'd be interested.

Generally speaking, franchise level talents come into the league as franchise level talents. Sure in some cases mediocre big men develop into a good big men. But I can't think of a single case where a good big man developed into a franchise level talent which is what Utah needs right now. There is a talent gap between Favors and players like Reke or DMC. Favors has shown nothing at this point beyond elite level shot blocking in limited minutes. If Utah thinks they can build a contending level team starting Kantor and Favors drafting where they will likely be drafting for the foreseeable future, they have an excessive amount of faith in the ability to develop players. Even if Favors becomes Serge Ibaka, they still need Westbrook and Durant to be competitive and they won't draft those type of talents where they will be drafting in the future. As long as Utah realizes that fact, a deal is possible.