Trade Suggestion: Fox for Simmons + #28

twslam07 · Nov 12, 2021

Honestly, if I was the GM, I'd be looking to trade Barnes, Hield, & Holmes for future assets and give us a better shot at landing a higher pick in the upcoming drafts. I just don't think we have the star talent/potential to go far in the playoffs (if we can even get there).

Fox can be a star in this league but can he be THE guy on a contending team? I don't believe so. I think he tops out more as the 2nd best player on a contending team if he reaches his potential.
I see Haliburton topping out as maybe the 3rd best player on a contending team if he reaches his potential (but perhaps I'm wrong)
Mitchell is maybe a 4th best player on a contending team (could be convinced he has 3rd best player potential)
Barnes is likely the 4th best player on a contending team
Holmes is a solid C and can play a role on a contending team but he's probably your 5th/6th best player
Hield is maybe a great 6th man on a contending team

We have a lot of solid pieces that can have a place on a contending team, but I feel like we're missing THE star or at least ANOTHER star. By the time Fox, Haliburton, & Mitchell are all in their prime at the same time, Barnes, Hield, & Holmes will be 33-34.

I don't hate Barnes, Hield, or Holmes at all. I just don't agree with keeping them around when our goal should be trying to maximize our talent for when guys like Fox, Haliburton, & Mitchell are all in their prime. Not to mention selling those veterans off would give us a better shot at finding that additional star player in the draft as our record would take a hit.

SacTownKid · Nov 12, 2021

twslam07 said:

That may all be true, but you always have teams that are unique or different enough to make noise and give themselves a shot down the road. This current team has depth that most teams don't nowadays but if you continuously don't rely on your top guys the right way, regardless of where you think they'll top out at individually, for some idea of what "winning" basketball is, you'll always come up short. As Walton is displaying now.

I think you're a little low on Barnes. I think he is right in that 3rd option range when playing small ball PF. Again, this is why whiffing that number 2 hurts. Bagley, regardless of his faults, was always the only shot this franchise had to be or get that 1-2 star production counter punch.

This is what makes a Simmons deal tough. You don't trade Fox for him, you try and add him to Fox. But in this combo, do they fit? That's another question. So with any team trying to make win now moves, you have to trade your young pieces to do it. The issue with the Kings young pieces goes both ways. On one hand, there is temptation to keep them and go star for star because in the Kings case Haliburton and Davion are older and more developed. On the flipside that does indeed limit their upside and perhaps value. It just does. Haliburton is kind of showing that his game is somewhat fusing into what it likely is at this point. If there was a Haliburton deal waiting for Monte to make with Philly, Morey might be a little less interested since there hasn't been a bump from Haliburton this season so far. Not that there can't be one, he simply isn't the type of player to takeover and they certainly haven't given him the role to do it. Now he can pretty much just refine his game most likely. He still needs to add size but that's a question moving forward as well because can he? And how much? Davion is a smallish PG that plays more like a SG. As a scorer individually he has a hesi move that separates him a bit since he can generate consistent points for stretches out of it. But like any player with a move like that, what happens when defenses focus on you?

macadocious · Nov 12, 2021

whozit said:

what?

whozit · Nov 12, 2021

macadocious said:

Sarcasm doesn't go well on message boards. My daughter also has some issues, can't see the records or any say in treatment but still responsible for any medical bills incurred.

AMR42700 · Nov 13, 2021

ESP47 said:

Isaiah Thomas likens Ben Simmons to Magic Johnson if he works on his free throws. The question is: Who has greater potential? Fox to be a prime Derrick Rose MVP candidate, or Simmons to start making free throwsand be a modern day Magic Johnson? I ABSOLUTELY LOVE FOX but if Isaiah is right then a small market team has to swing for the fences. I also like Bagley and a 1st for Wood. Wood is really underrated still.

https://www.hotnewhiphop.com/isiah-thomas-delivers-solid-advice-to-ben-simmons-news.142757.html

The_Jamal · Nov 13, 2021

I think the Fox-Simmons deal should be dead at this point. The expensive core is broken. If you're selling off, sell off for future assets and build up a warchest. Holmes, Barnes and Buddy all have increased their value over the past year and while Fox has struggled this season, he'd still command a damn good package in return. I think you could pretty easily get 5-6 FRP for those 4 with some quality younger pieces coming back as well. Assuming we finish out the year sucking, you could have a pretty quick turn-around with the potential for some home-run talents.

AMR42700 · Nov 13, 2021

The_Jamal said:

When has any GM in Sacramento ever taken that route? Even Petrie never did that. A couple of trades and key FA signings brought us the "glory days." I'm not saying that approach is wrong. But I'm not sure that's the direction we will go. Also if you go that direction Im not so sure the Kings dont keep Fox bc he's still only 23. He would be the type of young player along w Mitchell and Haliburton and to a lesser extent TD and Ramsey,, a team like Sac would keep "going young." Buddy, Holmes, Barnes would all be trade candidates in your scenario though.

SacTownKid · Nov 13, 2021

AMR42700 said:

Rule 1, Isiah Thomas in any way shape or form giving any type of advice from a personnel or management perspective needs to be ignored to the fullest extent possible, haha.

Magic Johnson was Magic Johnson for what he was above the neck. His talent was the ability to be a captain in a way very few players if ANY have ever been able to do nearly as well. Simmons is the opposite of Magic in that way. Most players are.

ShastaKingsFan · Nov 13, 2021

AMR42700 said:

The big problem is that it's not just a mental block at the free throw line. The guy can't shoot from anywhere. Having a lead player who can't shoot is a disaster

sactowndog · Nov 13, 2021

ShastaKingsFan said:

He has the largest fear of failure motivation I have ever seen. It drives him on the defensive end and hurts him on the offensive end. It truely is a mental condition.

sactowndog · Nov 13, 2021

twslam07 said:

Honestly, if I was the GM, I'd be looking to trade Barnes, Hield, & Holmes for future assets and give us a better shot at landing a higher pick in the upcoming drafts. I just don't think we have the star talent/potential to go far in the playoffs (if we can even get there).

Fox can be a star in this league but can he be THE guy on a contending team? I don't believe so. I think he tops out more as the 2nd best player on a contending team if he reaches his potential.
I see Haliburton topping out as maybe the 3rd best player on a contending team if he reaches his potential (but perhaps I'm wrong)
Mitchell is maybe a 4th best player on a contending team (could be convinced he has 3rd best player potential)
Barnes is likely the 4th best player on a contending team
Holmes is a solid C and can play a role on a contending team but he's probably your 5th/6th best player
Hield is maybe a great 6th man on a contending team

We have a lot of solid pieces that can have a place on a contending team, but I feel like we're missing THE star or at least ANOTHER star. By the time Fox, Haliburton, & Mitchell are all in their prime at the same time, Barnes, Hield, & Holmes will be 33-34.

I don't hate Barnes, Hield, or Holmes at all. I just don't agree with keeping them around when our goal should be trying to maximize our talent for when guys like Fox, Haliburton, & Mitchell are all in their prime. Not to mention selling those veterans off would give us a better shot at finding that additional star player in the draft as our record would take a hit.

Day late and a dollar short. The time to make that move was last year in a Covid year with lots of wing talent. At worst you ended up with Wagner. At best Mobley or Cade.

twslam07 · Nov 14, 2021

sactowndog said:

You must be referring to the Kings FO because I've been on this train for years.

But I'll bite on your argument that it's too late to do this now... What is the alternative to that plan/direction that you think is a better choice?

TaxMan · Nov 14, 2021

AMR42700 said:

After 15 years of losing you just don’t blow it up and rebuild after a bad 4 game stretch. That’s never going to happen. This team is a new coach and a roster tinker (or perhaps more) away from being a respective team. I’m not saying I would be satisfied knowing we can make the play in game or even the 7th or 8th seed as our ceiling, but fans are dropping like flies. Ownership needs to give us something (even if most on this board realize it’s fools gold).

sactowndog · Nov 14, 2021

twslam07 said:

Yes I am. Not much of an alternative at this point as this draft at least right now doesn’t look too deep. I would trade Fox for Simmons but that has its own risk. Simmons has a fear of failure but might blossom in Sac which could be at the opposite end of Philly in terms of tough market.

EIM86 · Nov 15, 2021

Tetsujin said:

we don’t need two davions lol

AMR42700 · Nov 15, 2021

OK so this Philly based article references the Kings trading one of Fox or Halliburton (w Hield if its Halliburton) based upon the Amick/Shams report.
So if the Kings are going to make a move, which one of the two are you trading? I'm asking based on the assumption the Kings will trade for Simmons whether it's preferred or not, which one gets traded? Personally, Im keeping Halliburton and we need Buddy if Simmons comes. So yes Im reluctantly trading Fox.

AMR42700 · Nov 15, 2021

AMR42700 said:

Edit forgot link https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelp...mors-will-kings-turmoil-lead-ben-simmons-deal

dude12 · Nov 15, 2021

AMR42700 said:

OK so this Philly based article references the Kings trading one of Fox or Halliburton (w Hield if its Halliburton) based upon the Amick/Shams report.
So if the Kings are going to make a move, which one of the two are you trading? I'm asking based on the assumption the Kings will trade for Simmons whether it's preferred or not, which one gets traded? Personally, Im keeping Halliburton and we need Buddy if Simmons comes. So yes Im reluctantly trading Fox.

None of them. Not for Simmons

kb02 · Nov 15, 2021

AMR42700 said:

It'll be Fox. You can't have two poor shooters on the same court at crunch time. Salary matches better as well.

ShastaKingsFan · Nov 15, 2021

kb02 said:

At a ball handling position, you really can't even have one poor shooter on the floor and expect to be a contender. Philly found that out the hard way

AMR42700 · Nov 15, 2021

kb02 said:

Yeah agreed. Simmons will upgrade the defense. If he got to 75% FT and could take and make even 33% of his 3's then he could really be something. His history suggests he wont do those things.

AMR42700 · Nov 15, 2021

ShastaKingsFan said:

Yeah and Fox is Vlades pick. Haliburton is McNair's.

kb02 · Nov 16, 2021

ShastaKingsFan said:

Imagine Fox and Simmons on the court at the same time. Teams would just pack the paint and chant shoot, shoot, shoot whenever Fox or Simmons has the ball.

Jkbiker · Nov 17, 2021

So assuming kb02 has me up against the wall with big bat in hand, saying you must trade Fox
Here is the only offer I would consider:

On Dec 16:
DeAaron Fox 28.1m, Marvin Bagley III 11.3m, 2022 1st rd pick(Top ten protected)

for

Ben Simmons 33.0m, Matisse Thybulle 2.8m, Georges Niang 3.3m

Salary matches within 300k

If you can get Philly to bite on that one, I could be persuaded to trade Fox

Otherwise,

NO

Capt. Factorial · Nov 17, 2021

Jkbiker said:

A few comments on technicalities:

If you include Niang, the Kings would have to waive somebody, because we don't have enough open roster spots. If you don't include Niang. the trade doesn't have to wait until Dec. 16.

Simmons has a 15% trade kicker. He can choose to waive any or all of it, but if we assume that he would not, his salary for the Kings' purposes is bumped to about $38.0M, while for the Sixers it remains at $33.0M. However, under the construction of this particular deal, it does not appear to make a difference - Simmons would not need to waive his trade kicker to make the deal work (with or without Niang).

funkykingston · Nov 17, 2021

Jkbiker said:

I wouldn't send Philly a 1st. At this point Morey is likely looking for any deal that he can sell as a win. Getting Fox to pair with Embiid would fit that criterion at this point. Not to mention Morey has never cared about accumulating picks. He's always been in win-now mode and should be considering where Embiid is at in his career.

And even before Cap's clarification I also wouldn't include Niang because the Kings don't have a roster spot and would eat the cost to waive somebody. No, I say Simmons & Thybulle for Fox & Bagley. I don't know who would give the Sixers a better deal right now so why bid against yourselves?

I love Fox. I have since day 1. I want the Kings to win with him leading the team. But what I've seen this year is concerning. He's taken a step backwards and doesn't seem to mesh with Haliburton who we all agree is one of the only other building blocks on this team.

Fox just doesn't look at all comfortable playing off the ball, which is part of why he put up better numbers with Buddy Hield as the other starting guard. That and he looks a bit slower this season after adding strength and weight.

Now, Simmons presents the same issue even more severely - he's not useful on offense off the ball either. So the fit with Haliburton (and even Mitchell who can run the team at times and be a secondary playmaker) is similarly not great, but unlike Fox, Simmons adds elite defense and improves team rebounding. So it's the same wart but with additional positivies.

Plus it gets Mitchell into the starting lineup and gives you two great defenders, possibly three considering Holmes' advanced stats on that end. Not to mention I can't be the only one that feels that Haliburton and Mitchell play off one another far, FAR better than Fox and either of the other two.

Holmes
Harkless/Metu
Barnes
Haliburton
Fox

unfortunately looks like the starting lineup of yet another lottery team to me.

Holmes
Simmons
Barnes
Haliburton
Mitchell

You have additional bench shooting from Hield and Davis, an elite defender off the bench in Thybulle, a couple big wings in Harkless and Metu and Len & Thompson when you need a big body in the paint for rebounding and/or defense. Plus against opponents playing small ball you could sometimes move Simmons to the Draymond Green role and have:

Simmons
Barnes
Hield
Haliburton
Mitchell

Depending on matchups that's a hell of a five man unit to roll out.

looks like a gritty playoff team to me.

iowamcnabb · Nov 17, 2021

Fox looks uncomfortable off the ball because he is shooting 23% from 3. Swipa’s stardom depends on his 3 point shot and to a lesser extent, his free throws. If he ever gets to 36-37 percent at a high volume and 75 from the line he is a star. If not, his ceiling is just short of all star.

as far as the trade, it’s tough. I would have to at least think about it because we go from bad defensively to top 10-15. Can we replace his scoring? You would have to be confident Davion can be at least a poor mans Kemba. It doesn’t appear we can expect a ton of scoring out of Hali. I dunno.

Jkbiker · Nov 17, 2021

Capt. Factorial said:

the reason I included Niang was to balance the salaries so Philly does not increase their luxury tax bill in the trade
and also to give us a PF backup off the bench. I would have no problem with the extra roster spot, we could easily waive Woodard (he is only guar $300k next season and only 1.5m this season. With getting Thybulle we dont need Woodard.

And I am ok with the 1st going out, its worth it to get Thybulle and Niang vs a straight up trade

ShastaKingsFan · Nov 17, 2021

iowamcnabb said:

I think we can expect consistent scoring from Haliburton, within the flow of running an offense. Not expecting to give him the ball and go one on one or (1-4 flat). I know one thing for sure, I want the ball in Halilburton's hands at the end of the game to run an actual play, vs telling Fox to go 1-4 flat.....and no, Walton's idea to toss the ball back to Tyrese for a 30 footer is not what I'd consider "an actual play"

kb02 · Nov 17, 2021

Jkbiker said:

So assuming kb02 has me up against the wall with big bat in hand, saying you must trade Fox
Here is the only offer I would consider:

On Dec 16:
DeAaron Fox 28.1m, Marvin Bagley III 11.3m, 2022 1st rd pick(Top ten protected)

for

Ben Simmons 33.0m, Matisse Thybulle 2.8m, Georges Niang 3.3m

Salary matches within 300k

If you can get Philly to bite on that one, I could be persuaded to trade Fox

Otherwise,

NO

I think that is a do-able deal. Do it, McNair.

Trade Suggestion: Fox for Simmons + #28

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