Trade Suggestion: Fox for Simmons + #28

#1
Fox for Simmons + 28. Fox is the penetrating PG that the 76ers need.

With Fox gone, Hali takes over the starting PG spot. Simmons slides in as the 4/3 for the Kings. The Kings take BPA at #9 (Jalen Johnson? Scottie Barnes? Davion Mitchell?) and grab Ayo Donsumu, Tre Mann, Herb Jones, or Jared Butler at #28 and #39. Kings make the playoffs next year.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#2
Fox for Simmons + 28. Fox is the penetrating PG that the 76ers need.

With Fox gone, Hali takes over the starting PG spot. Simmons slides in as the 4/3 for the Kings. The Kings take BPA at #9 (Jalen Johnson? Scottie Barnes? Davion Mitchell?) and grab Ayo Donsumu, Tre Mann, Herb Jones, or Jared Butler at #28 and #39. Kings make the playoffs next year.
Feels like that's actually selling really low on Fox at this point. Team controlled for a half decade. No character issues. Improving jump shot. One of the best 4th quarter scorers in the league. If the Sixers really want him, it'd take more than a super low first and a dude who is currently the internet's favorite target.

The Sixers destroyed any leverage they had in a Simmons move when their coach and star player actively threw him under the bus last night. If they threw in another first or two and maybe Maxey there's a chance I'd think about it.
 

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
#3
I moved this to the Personnel Moves forum, and updated the title slightly. We should be careful with our thread titles so that they can't be accidentally misinterpreted to suggest something has happened which has not.
 
#4
Feels like that's actually selling really low on Fox at this point. Team controlled for a half decade. No character issues. Improving jump shot. One of the best 4th quarter scorers in the league. If the Sixers really want him, it'd take more than a super low first and a dude who is currently the internet's favorite target.

The Sixers destroyed any leverage they had in a Simmons move when their coach and star player actively threw him under the bus last night. If they threw in another first or two and maybe Maxey there's a chance I'd think about it.
I see it more as buying low on Simmons. He presents a unique blend of size, athleticism, and skill. And, age wise, Fox is 23 while Simmons is 24. So neither is a finished product. And between the two, Simmons unicorn rating is a big higher than Fox's (harder to find a 6'10 big with ball handling skills and elite defense than a 6'3 PG with elite speed and potentially elite defense).

Plus it allows Hali to be the full time PG. I trust Hali's decision making significantly more than Fox's. And I think Hali and Simmons would play better than Simmons and Fox.

As for asking for more than #28, I considered that, but wanted to be realistic. I think Simmons + 28 is realistic, especially given the relationship between the GMs.

#28 and #39 gives us a shot at Donsumu, Butler, Herb Jones, and/or Mann. All four are underrated and will be long term pros.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#5
I see it more as buying low on Simmons. He presents a unique blend of size, athleticism, and skill. And, age wise, Fox is 23 while Simmons is 24. So neither is a finished product. And between the two, Simmons unicorn rating is a big higher than Fox's (harder to find a 6'10 big with ball handling skills and elite defense than a 6'3 PG with elite speed and potentially elite defense).

Plus it allows Hali to be the full time PG. I trust Hali's decision making significantly more than Simmons. And I think Hali and Simmons would play better than Simmons and Fox.

As for asking for more than #28, I considered that, but wanted to be realistic. I think Simmons + 28 is realistic, especially given the relationship between the GMs.
How the hell does trading for a 6'10" point guard who reportedly refused to play off the ball allow Haliburton to be the point guard full time?
 
#6
How the hell does trading for a 6'10" point guard who reportedly refused to play off the ball allow Haliburton to be the point guard full time?
Both can take turns bringing the ball up. Simmons can grab a board and go (he's elite doing so). In those situations, Hali can slide down and expand the court. He did that often this year and showed a deadly shot when he's catching and shooting. In half court sets, let Hali run the ball. He needs to bulk up, so he can penetrate better, but his vision is elite. Because of his vision plus his craft, I trust him more than Fox at the end of game.

I love Fox, so I'm totally fine if he remains a King. But long term, if both Fox and Hali are on the Kings, I think we see Fox more as the scoring combo guard rather than the lead guard in crunch time.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#7
Both can take turns bringing the ball up. Simmons can grab a board and go (he's elite doing so). In those situations, Hali can slide down and expand the court. He did that often this year and showed a deadly shot when he's catching and shooting. In half court sets, let Hali run the ball. He needs to bulk up, so he can penetrate better, but his vision is elite. That vision plus his craft, I trust more than Fox at the end of game.

I love Fox, so I'm totally fine if he remains a King. But long term, if both Fox and Hali are on the Kings, I think we see Fox more as the scoring combo guard rather than the lead guard in crunch time.
So instead of having two guys who can score in crunch time, you'd rather have one guy and another guy who is so afraid of scoring buckets when it matters that he'll pass up open dunks?>
 

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
#8
The Sixers destroyed any leverage they had in a Simmons move when their coach and star player actively threw him under the bus last night. If they threw in another first or two and maybe Maxey there's a chance I'd think about it.
That's the crazy thing. I have no actual idea what his trade value even is. He's owed $147M over four years, he won't even shoot in crunch time, and the Sixers owe stupid money to Harris as well as Embiid on top of Simmons. Now the coach and Embiid are throwing him under the bus? You'd initially thin it would take a Godfather offer, but now...is this a fire sale?

I know folks want to compare this to the Webber acquisition, but at least there weren't a whole lot of on-court questions about CWebb. So yeah, it would be nice to get a player of Simmons' potential, but I think if it takes a Godfather offer I'd rather let somebody else make it. I'd be pretty comfortable going with Buddy, our 2022 pick unprotected, and a 2023 pick swap...but if it gets more expensive than that I worry we actually hurt our team.

Obviously I'd feel a lot different about it if Simmons were locked in at $15M per year instead of almost $37M per year- as would a lot of other front offices. So it goes.
 
#9
So instead of having two guys who can score in crunch time, you'd rather have one guy and another guy who is so afraid of scoring buckets when it matters that he'll pass up open dunks?>
I'm betting on the guy, who will make the right play than force it. Hali needs muscle, but I think next year, he's the better crunch time option whether Fox is here or not.
 
#10
That's the crazy thing. I have no actual idea what his trade value even is. He's owed $147M over four years, he won't even shoot in crunch time, and the Sixers owe stupid money to Harris as well as Embiid on top of Simmons. Now the coach and Embiid are throwing him under the bus? You'd initially thin it would take a Godfather offer, but now...is this a fire sale?

I know folks want to compare this to the Webber acquisition, but at least there weren't a whole lot of on-court questions about CWebb. So yeah, it would be nice to get a player of Simmons' potential, but I think if it takes a Godfather offer I'd rather let somebody else make it. I'd be pretty comfortable going with Buddy, our 2022 pick unprotected, and a 2023 pick swap...but if it gets more expensive than that I worry we actually hurt our team.

Obviously I'd feel a lot different about it if Simmons were locked in at $15M per year instead of almost $37M per year- as would a lot of other front offices. So it goes.
It is the essence of buying low. Obviously, I have more belief in Simmon's talent than others here.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#11
That's the crazy thing. I have no actual idea what his trade value even is. He's owed $147M over four years, he won't even shoot in crunch time, and the Sixers owe stupid money to Harris as well as Embiid on top of Simmons. Now the coach and Embiid are throwing him under the bus? You'd initially thin it would take a Godfather offer, but now...is this a fire sale?

I know folks want to compare this to the Webber acquisition, but at least there weren't a whole lot of on-court questions about CWebb. So yeah, it would be nice to get a player of Simmons' potential, but I think if it takes a Godfather offer I'd rather let somebody else make it. I'd be pretty comfortable going with Buddy, our 2022 pick unprotected, and a 2023 pick swap...but if it gets more expensive than that I worry we actually hurt our team.

Obviously I'd feel a lot different about it if Simmons were locked in at $15M per year instead of almost $37M per year- as would a lot of other front offices. So it goes.
Right, the issue with coming up with Simmons trades is that the Sixers will probably be thinking of him as a star and look for a star return whereas most might be looking at him more as an extraordinarily overpaid glue role player. Like I love Draymond Green and Lonzo Ball but I certainly wouldn't trade Fox for either of them and I think Simmons might actually be in the same boat.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#12
I'm betting on the guy, who will make the right play than force it. Hali needs muscle, but I think next year, he's the better crunch time option whether Fox is here or not.
I think this year's playoffs have shown us that it's probably better to have multiple guys like that rather than just one, regardless of the hierarchy. Trading Fox for Simmons accomplishes nothing in that regard unless you're banking on Jalen Johnson or Scotty Barnes suddenly turning into guy #2.
 
#13
That's the crazy thing. I have no actual idea what his trade value even is. He's owed $147M over four years, he won't even shoot in crunch time, and the Sixers owe stupid money to Harris as well as Embiid on top of Simmons. Now the coach and Embiid are throwing him under the bus? You'd initially thin it would take a Godfather offer, but now...is this a fire sale?

I know folks want to compare this to the Webber acquisition, but at least there weren't a whole lot of on-court questions about CWebb. So yeah, it would be nice to get a player of Simmons' potential, but I think if it takes a Godfather offer I'd rather let somebody else make it. I'd be pretty comfortable going with Buddy, our 2022 pick unprotected, and a 2023 pick swap...but if it gets more expensive than that I worry we actually hurt our team.

Obviously I'd feel a lot different about it if Simmons were locked in at $15M per year instead of almost $37M per year- as would a lot of other front offices. So it goes.
I think McCollum is maybe the best they can get. Another guy 2-3 seasons ago who was considered an elite second to their franchise player who the franchise has taken a complete turn on.

However, the Blazers might blink at that contract, since Paul Allen's death they seem to have tightened their coinpurse a bit.
 
#15
Right, the issue with coming up with Simmons trades is that the Sixers will probably be thinking of him as a star and look for a star return whereas most might be looking at him more as an extraordinarily overpaid glue role player. Like I love Draymond Green and Lonzo Ball but I certainly wouldn't trade Fox for either of them and I think Simmons might actually be in the same boat.
I doubt the 76ers would expect a star in return after Doc and Embid threw him under the bus. Perfect world, Buddy + #9 for Simmons. I don't think that gets Simmons though I'd love to try.
 
#17
But you don't sell low to buy low.
I don't think we'd be selling low on Fox in the traditional sense. He played well this year. We'd sell low, if he continues to improve and jumps levels, and Simmons stagnates. But so can Simmons, who is like a few months older than Fox. Neither are in their primes. I think Simmons' ceiling is higher than Fox's. Hence why I'm willing to make the proposed trade.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#19
I don't think we'd be selling low on Fox in the traditional sense. He played well this year. We'd sell low, if he continues to improve and jumps levels, but so can Simmons, who is like a few months older than Fox. Neither are in the primes. I think Simmons' ceiling is higher than Fox's. Hence why I'm willing to make the proposed trade.
Maybe, but if it's a question of who's more likely to reach their ceiling, I'm going with the guy who has improved every year over the dude who has actively gotten worse as his career has progressed.
 
#20
I doubt the 76ers would expect a star in return after Doc and Embid threw him under the bus. Perfect world, Buddy + #9 for Simmons. I don't think that gets Simmons though I'd love to try.
I feel like that's where you start. If they want us to throw someone else in we can ask for someone to fill that player's spot. But no way I send Fox or Haliburton, two guys that want to be here and are already in our long term budget. Everyone else is negotiable.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#21
I feel like that's where you start. If they want us to throw someone else in we can ask for someone to fill that player's spot. But no way I send Fox or Haliburton, two guys that want to be here and are already in our long term budget. Everyone else is negotiable.
Right, the goal of team building is to accumulate as many good players as you can and trading good player for good player sorta gets in the way of that.
 
#22
Right, the goal of team building is to accumulate as many good players as you can and trading good player for good player sorta gets in the way of that.
Especially fan favorites for a guy who is everyone's lapdog.

Although we sorta did that with Mitch, but that was also a clear talent win and also an era where you built around bigs not guards.
 
#23
Morey is not going to trade Ben Simmons for Cj McCollum or a lesser player. There is just no way. Maybe he tries to move Harris and dangles Maxey and a pick or two for a scoring pg?

the Sixers need cap space to sign Lowry. I’d assumed they will try to find a way to make that happen.
 
#27
Were it a high lotto pick then maybe but it's the 28th pick. I'd almost prefer an unprotected pick in a couple of years just gambling on the Sixers having an off-year or something.
If the Kings can get 28 plus an unprotected first in say 2026, I would be all over that. I think that might be a bridge too far though for Morey.

That said, given their (Morey and McNair) backgrounds, I can see a much larger trade where Buddy/Barnes/Bagley goes to Philly and other pieces come back. Plus draft picks.
 
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#28
I don't see how you can build a team around Simmons unless you pair him with a big time perimeter scorer. All the Sixers really need right now is a high usage guard who can create instant offense so they don't have to run everything inside out. They probably should try to trade Tobias Harris for that player and put a 3 and D type in that second forward spot to balance the floor better.

If we were going to try and buy low on Simmons, a lineup with Fox and Simmons would make more sense to me than pairing Haliburton and Simmons because I think Fox is going to eventually become a reliable outside shooter but I don't know if Haliburton even wants to be an iso-guy. I don't really want to trade either of our young guards though. Especially when we don't even know where we're picking in the draft this year. If we're in position to draft a top PG like Jalen Suggs or even Davion Mitchell I'd think about making the Fox deal and going defense-first but even then I'd have a major issue with trading Fox. He's been unwavering in his commitment to Sacramento so trading him is really sending a bad message to Haliburton and anyone else thinking about potentially signing here. It's hard to ask your players for loyalty if it's clear the sentiment won't be returned.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#29
Call me crazy because the Kings haven’t sniffed the playoffs but here’s my take on the Kings with Fox. I think they would have a better shot at playoffs and winning in the playoffs by keeping Fox and continue to build around him and Hali and the other pieces than with replacing Fox with Simmons.

Fox is a player the opposition has to scheme for. Those are hard to get. We got one. Simmons has his unique skill set and is tremendous defensively but you better have the right specific pieces around him as all players do but Simmons has the best big man in the game and Simmons was a guy they had to take off the floor at times.
 
#30
Call me crazy because the Kings haven’t sniffed the playoffs but here’s my take on the Kings with Fox. I think they would have a better shot at playoffs and winning in the playoffs by keeping Fox and continue to build around him and Hali and the other pieces than with replacing Fox with Simmons.

Fox is a player the opposition has to scheme for. Those are hard to get. We got one. Simmons has his unique skill set and is tremendous defensively but you better have the right specific pieces around him as all players do but Simmons has the best big man in the game and Simmons was a guy they had to take off the floor at times.
I personally think Simmons is a better player than Fox due to his defense and near triple double averaging. I also agree that teams have to scheme for Fox more than Simmons and you also have to build a specific team around Simmons in order to succeed.

Here is my only worry about a Fox and Hali backcourt. They could potentially just be a very poor man's Lillard and McCollum and Lillard and McCollum are a bit of a poor man's western conference playoff team.

Fox scores a bit like Lillard without the killer shot. Hali looks like he's going to be able to do a bit of everything like McCollum. So far both Fox and Hali have been really bad defensively. Hali has a shot to improve and you'd think Fox would have improved at least somewhat by now but he really hasn't. They could potentially just be a lesser version of the Blazers from this point forward.

I think it's worth thinking about at least.