Trade Suggestion: Fox for Simmons + #28
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Fit shouldn't have stopped the Kings from drafting Doncic. I was among those who valued Bagley just a bit more in that draft, and part of my argument was that the Kings' already had a lead ball handler in Fox, and Bogdanovic brought some of the playmaking you would also get from Doncic. Bagley seemed like the better fit overall, though I did like Luka quite a bit, too. I just didn't see him as a surefire star. Ultimately, I was wrong. Soooooo wrong. Wrong about Luka's trajectory, but also wrong about how to construct a successful roster in the modern NBA. And then the Kings went and drafted a heady secondary creator last off-season, anyway. Haliburton very quickly turned out to be a perfect backcourt partner for Fox. So I've taken my lumps and learned my lessons. You can never have too many creators in today's league.
You also can never have too much shooting. Unfortunately, Simmons does not help in that realm at all. He can't/won't shoot. It's an obvious problem. But Hali shoots daggers from deep, so an initial "core" of Fox/Simmons/Haliburton isn't totally sunk. They'd also represent one of the speediest, deadliest, and most dynamic fast breaks in the entire league, so the team's offensive efficiency would be helped by lots of easy money at the rim (provided Walton loosened up and let them run). And between Simmons' and Hali's collective basketball IQ, the Kings would finally have the kind of smart players that fans have been clamoring for across the last decade. If they managed to hold onto Harrison Barnes, so much the better.
I don't know who the fifth needs to be, but Fox/Hali/Simmons/Barnes is versatile as f***. The defense certainly improves with Simmons in the lineup, and yes, maybe there's not quite enough shooting (unless Fox takes a leap in that area), and maybe the paint is a little crowded at times, and if Philly's problems become Sacramento's problems as a result, well, I'd say there are worse problems to have than making the playoffs year in and year out. And I think that's the kind of potential we're talking about here. With the right head coach who could harness the creativity of a young, dynamic, and unselfish core of Fox/Hali/Simmons, it's not unthinkable that they'd be competing deep into the playoffs eventually.
Now, if the Kings didn't pursue Simmons or were unable to trade for him, there are a few players I really like at the 9-spot this year. Jalen Johnson is my first choice among players that could be available when the Kings pick. I think he provides much of what modern NBA teams need on the wing. But does he project to be better than Ben Simmons? Not really. He's got the same questions surrounding him about whether he can become a serviceable shooter in the NBA. He could be an eventual star, of course, but if scouts thought he definitely had Simmons-like potential, he'd be projected to go higher than the Kings are picking, anyway. So if the Kings are able to pursue Simmons and land him for a package that doesn't cost them Fox or Haliburton, I don't see how they could pass it up, even if Simmons' fit with Fox isn't ideal.
That said, it is absolutely a risk. It could very well crash and burn. In such a case, losing those first rounders would sting. But a franchise like this one needs to swing at opportunities to acquire all-star talent via trade, especially an all-star talent just entering his prime, and especially if it only costs them Hield and Bagley (two players that most of the fan base is ready to move on from, anyway) plus a mid-lotto pick this year and future first rounders that would presumably be in some deeper range of the draft.
You also can never have too much shooting. Unfortunately, Simmons does not help in that realm at all. He can't/won't shoot. It's an obvious problem. But Hali shoots daggers from deep, so an initial "core" of Fox/Simmons/Haliburton isn't totally sunk. They'd also represent one of the speediest, deadliest, and most dynamic fast breaks in the entire league, so the team's offensive efficiency would be helped by lots of easy money at the rim (provided Walton loosened up and let them run). And between Simmons' and Hali's collective basketball IQ, the Kings would finally have the kind of smart players that fans have been clamoring for across the last decade. If they managed to hold onto Harrison Barnes, so much the better.
I don't know who the fifth needs to be, but Fox/Hali/Simmons/Barnes is versatile as f***. The defense certainly improves with Simmons in the lineup, and yes, maybe there's not quite enough shooting (unless Fox takes a leap in that area), and maybe the paint is a little crowded at times, and if Philly's problems become Sacramento's problems as a result, well, I'd say there are worse problems to have than making the playoffs year in and year out. And I think that's the kind of potential we're talking about here. With the right head coach who could harness the creativity of a young, dynamic, and unselfish core of Fox/Hali/Simmons, it's not unthinkable that they'd be competing deep into the playoffs eventually.
Now, if the Kings didn't pursue Simmons or were unable to trade for him, there are a few players I really like at the 9-spot this year. Jalen Johnson is my first choice among players that could be available when the Kings pick. I think he provides much of what modern NBA teams need on the wing. But does he project to be better than Ben Simmons? Not really. He's got the same questions surrounding him about whether he can become a serviceable shooter in the NBA. He could be an eventual star, of course, but if scouts thought he definitely had Simmons-like potential, he'd be projected to go higher than the Kings are picking, anyway. So if the Kings are able to pursue Simmons and land him for a package that doesn't cost them Fox or Haliburton, I don't see how they could pass it up, even if Simmons' fit with Fox isn't ideal.
That said, it is absolutely a risk. It could very well crash and burn. In such a case, losing those first rounders would sting. But a franchise like this one needs to swing at opportunities to acquire all-star talent via trade, especially an all-star talent just entering his prime, and especially if it only costs them Hield and Bagley (two players that most of the fan base is ready to move on from, anyway) plus a mid-lotto pick this year and future first rounders that would presumably be in some deeper range of the draft.
I hadn't considered Jaylen Brown for the Sixers. I'm curious to see how Brad Stevens manages his new role as GM. The Celtics likely need as much of a shake-up as Philly to deliver on all of their asset collection and unfulfilled promise. I wonder if he'd swing for the fences on a Simmons trade so early in his tenure?
At any rate, I'm in agreement regarding the two things that have to happen in order for Morey to accept a Kings package that doesn't include Fox or Haliburton. Question 1: Does he feel like he must trade Simmons now? And Question 2: Does the rest of the league refuse to blink in offering up an all-star caliber talent if they suspect they know the answer to Question 1 is "yes"? If those stars align, I think the Kings' offer stands a good chance of being the most competitive without having to include either member of their starting backcourt.
At any rate, I'm in agreement regarding the two things that have to happen in order for Morey to accept a Kings package that doesn't include Fox or Haliburton. Question 1: Does he feel like he must trade Simmons now? And Question 2: Does the rest of the league refuse to blink in offering up an all-star caliber talent if they suspect they know the answer to Question 1 is "yes"? If those stars align, I think the Kings' offer stands a good chance of being the most competitive without having to include either member of their starting backcourt.
I was never with the whole "don't take the ball out of Fox's hands" take people had when talking themselves out of drafting Doncic. Fox would have been able to drive and kick to Luka for 3. That ain't happening with Simmons. Not only can he not hit the 3 but his man doesn't even need to guard him when he's out there so that adds more resistance to Fox's biggest skill, his driving.
Then it puts you in the same scenario we've been in with Bagley. Finding a unicorn 5 that can defend and spread the floor. That most likely ain't happening so now if Fox is handling the ball, you've got 2 non shooters out there with him. If Simmons is handling the ball, you have a non shooter and a below average shooter who doesn't play defense. Either Fox's on court value with drop quite a bit or Simmons' will but something will have to give there. To me it's quite a bit different than Fox and Doncic or Fox and any other player that takes the ball out of his hands but can shoot.
Still I do agree that it's not the worst trade attempt ever but I think it would mean inevitably trading Fox in the end because I can't see a path to success for those two next to each other. Plus money is going to be a huge concern. His contract is massive. I'm always down to take a chance because the last thing I want to do is run it back again but I just think the odds of this are even lower than the current path.
Then it puts you in the same scenario we've been in with Bagley. Finding a unicorn 5 that can defend and spread the floor. That most likely ain't happening so now if Fox is handling the ball, you've got 2 non shooters out there with him. If Simmons is handling the ball, you have a non shooter and a below average shooter who doesn't play defense. Either Fox's on court value with drop quite a bit or Simmons' will but something will have to give there. To me it's quite a bit different than Fox and Doncic or Fox and any other player that takes the ball out of his hands but can shoot.
Still I do agree that it's not the worst trade attempt ever but I think it would mean inevitably trading Fox in the end because I can't see a path to success for those two next to each other. Plus money is going to be a huge concern. His contract is massive. I'm always down to take a chance because the last thing I want to do is run it back again but I just think the odds of this are even lower than the current path.
Instead of hoping to dig up a unicorn 5, I'd search for an adequate 3-and-D wing to replace Buddy and trot out an unconventional lineup of Fox/Hali/(flex wing)/Barnes/Simmons.
Simmons is a legit 6'11", 240 lbs. He's actually a little taller/bigger than Richaun Holmes. Hell, the Kings' best and most modern lineup this season was Fox/Hali/Hield/Barnes/Holmes. If it's going to be the era of "positionless basketball," then we should commit. Manage to trade for Simmons without giving up Fox/Hali and you could potentially play a flexible, switchable line-up with rim running and shooting and playmaking all over.
Simmons is a legit 6'11", 240 lbs. He's actually a little taller/bigger than Richaun Holmes. Hell, the Kings' best and most modern lineup this season was Fox/Hali/Hield/Barnes/Holmes. If it's going to be the era of "positionless basketball," then we should commit. Manage to trade for Simmons without giving up Fox/Hali and you could potentially play a flexible, switchable line-up with rim running and shooting and playmaking all over.
Not so much the cash call, but the carry. Residential RE has popped due to low supply and low interest rates, but commercial props haven’t followed due to WFH, a lack of patrons at restaurants/stores, etc, and bans on evictions. The properties around G1C are mainly commercial. I know folks on both sides of the commercial equation, some (like the Kings) are both owners of some props and tenants at others. The carry is pretty crazy.
It would be like how the Bucks use Giannis at the 5 but with less unbridled aggression. (Both guys are questionable shooters but also 6'11" unicorns but Giannis isn't afraid to attack while Simmons is dealing with possibly the worst mental block in modern NBA history.)
That said, using him as a roller and getting him the ball while running Ty or De'Aaron off of secondary action away from the pick would be unstoppable in a way that the Bucks pick and rolls with Jrue aren't.
That said, using him as a roller and getting him the ball while running Ty or De'Aaron off of secondary action away from the pick would be unstoppable in a way that the Bucks pick and rolls with Jrue aren't.
I see the allure, but the red flags are big. I’d definitely not give up 3 first round picks for the guy.
I also find it interesting that he’s dealing with some crazy mental block, and Markelle Fultz went through something similar when he was in Phili...Probably just coincidence, but it’s definitely strange.
I also find it interesting that he’s dealing with some crazy mental block, and Markelle Fultz went through something similar when he was in Phili...Probably just coincidence, but it’s definitely strange.
Adding future 1st's like candy is a scary thought. If this team were known to be a legit playoff contender one Simmons level player away? Maybe you take that gamble aside from the fact that he's probably not worth that to begin with. If Simmons comes in and it's not the answer congrats, you potentially just became the Isiah Thomas Knicks.
Those of you harping on the playoff drought should be totally on board with trading for Simmons.
He’s exactly the type of elite level unicorn talent the KINGS should be taking a chance on.
W/O the warts, they’d have very little to absolutely no shot of acquiring a player like him in FA or via trade. The most realistic shot is via the draft and we all know how that usually plays out.
Having said that, I fully agree that 3 first round picks added to a package of Buddy and Bagley is a ridiculous expectation. That’s what an org should be asking for if they had zero interest in moving the player — which I don’t believe is the case here.
I’m not sure I’d even surrender 2 first round picks in that package, but I’d consider it. Mostly because I’d be more in favor of losing #9 this year and a future 1st versus including Swipa or Haliburton.
But if, say, Haliburton was on the table — no chance I’m giving up a draft pick too.
Buddy, Bagley, filler contract, #9 and a future 1st is something I likely would do.
Buddy, Haliburton and filler contract w/o including any draft picks is something I’d consider.
I’m not trading Swipa. Period, end of story. And I’m only considering trading Hali IF draft picks aren’t included.
Again, acquiring Simmons is something the KINGS should strongly consider. But only for a somewhat reasonable price.
No to Swipa. No to 3 first round picks. No to Hali + draft pick.
He’s exactly the type of elite level unicorn talent the KINGS should be taking a chance on.
W/O the warts, they’d have very little to absolutely no shot of acquiring a player like him in FA or via trade. The most realistic shot is via the draft and we all know how that usually plays out.
Having said that, I fully agree that 3 first round picks added to a package of Buddy and Bagley is a ridiculous expectation. That’s what an org should be asking for if they had zero interest in moving the player — which I don’t believe is the case here.
I’m not sure I’d even surrender 2 first round picks in that package, but I’d consider it. Mostly because I’d be more in favor of losing #9 this year and a future 1st versus including Swipa or Haliburton.
But if, say, Haliburton was on the table — no chance I’m giving up a draft pick too.
Buddy, Bagley, filler contract, #9 and a future 1st is something I likely would do.
Buddy, Haliburton and filler contract w/o including any draft picks is something I’d consider.
I’m not trading Swipa. Period, end of story. And I’m only considering trading Hali IF draft picks aren’t included.
Again, acquiring Simmons is something the KINGS should strongly consider. But only for a somewhat reasonable price.
No to Swipa. No to 3 first round picks. No to Hali + draft pick.
If the core is Fox, Haliburton, Simmons then you'd need two other shooters around them.
That means you almost certainly have to play small.
Simmons
Barnes
????
Haliburton
Fox
As a starting lineup. Sign a big bodied center for those nights that you have to play Denver or Philly but otherwise play small and fast.
I don't like the idea of trading Fox but it would actually make building around Simmons easier. But given the offers that are rumored I would definitely ask for at least Simmons and Thybulle. That trade is in the Kings favor but the Sixers likely aren't going to get market value in this situation.
That means you almost certainly have to play small.
Simmons
Barnes
????
Haliburton
Fox
As a starting lineup. Sign a big bodied center for those nights that you have to play Denver or Philly but otherwise play small and fast.
I don't like the idea of trading Fox but it would actually make building around Simmons easier. But given the offers that are rumored I would definitely ask for at least Simmons and Thybulle. That trade is in the Kings favor but the Sixers likely aren't going to get market value in this situation.
I really don't care if the fit is awkward or if it doesn't project into a team that could ever win the championship.... I just want to see a fun team that is consistently in the playoffs, and, given a little luck just might go on a improbable run. It is highly unlikely that Sacramento will ever have a team that will perennially be considered a championship favorite. If we can get a star (even if he's not a "superstar" some would like, has warts, or a potentially bad fit with the team), you go for it. This is the exact situation McNair was referring to when he talked about his strategy of having flexibility to jump when an opportunity presents itself.
As overly complicated as that may be, if rumors that Jody wants to sell the Blazers are true, Buddy's declining deal and Bagley's 1 year become huge assets in making it happen.
No idea if it works under the cap.
Also not sure if this beats the Warriors package of Wiseman, Wiggins, 7 and 14 plus whatever additional goodies (2023 pick?) they have to throw in to spice it up, but that would totally hinge on whether or not the Blazers for sale is true or not.
No idea if it works under the cap.
Also not sure if this beats the Warriors package of Wiseman, Wiggins, 7 and 14 plus whatever additional goodies (2023 pick?) they have to throw in to spice it up, but that would totally hinge on whether or not the Blazers for sale is true or not.
If they do that they will join us in permanent 7-10 pick purgatory. Simmons I just don't see having the ability to win a dozen games on his own the way Lillard does which is what has set them over the top. They really are not a good team outside of Dame.
I know Lillard doesn't have any say with his contract being what it is, but I don't think Philly is on his list of destinations.
I know Lillard doesn't have any say with his contract being what it is, but I don't think Philly is on his list of destinations.
From a quick glance it looks like it safely works under the cap for all teams with next year's salaries. It looks like including George Hill (who was cut-bait anyway) is problematic for Portland if the trade were to be done BEFORE the draft, but Hill doesn't appear to be necessary to make the trade work if it were to happen, say, this week.
Well, I think if I were Portland I'd like it better:
#9 > #14
Hield > Wiggins
4 1sts >> 2 1sts (#7 + ??)
Wiseman ?>? Bagley
Unless they value Wiseman WAY more than Bagley then I'd say it looks like a better deal.
From the Kings point of view this looks better than some of the other Simmons deals proposed because the draft capital involved is lower. Still a bit rich for my taste, but I'm the one who still thinks Bagley has a legit NBA future. I wouldn't say "red flags", but if Simmons didn't have all those "yellow flags" I'd have to jump at it. But the yellow flags are there. Guarantee me playoffs for three straight years and that the pick we send out isn't better than #20 and I'd do it - I'm just not convinced that Simmons at the cost of shooting, a decent draft pick, and any chance for an impact front line actually gets us over the hump.
Edit: Or sure, convince me that Bagley is going to flame out by this time next year, and I'd jump at it. But unlike many on the board, I don't believe that.
Well, I think if I were Portland I'd like it better:
#9 > #14
Hield > Wiggins
4 1sts >> 2 1sts (#7 + ??)
Wiseman ?>? Bagley
Unless they value Wiseman WAY more than Bagley then I'd say it looks like a better deal.
From the Kings point of view this looks better than some of the other Simmons deals proposed because the draft capital involved is lower. Still a bit rich for my taste, but I'm the one who still thinks Bagley has a legit NBA future. I wouldn't say "red flags", but if Simmons didn't have all those "yellow flags" I'd have to jump at it. But the yellow flags are there. Guarantee me playoffs for three straight years and that the pick we send out isn't better than #20 and I'd do it - I'm just not convinced that Simmons at the cost of shooting, a decent draft pick, and any chance for an impact front line actually gets us over the hump.
Edit: Or sure, convince me that Bagley is going to flame out by this time next year, and I'd jump at it. But unlike many on the board, I don't believe that.
It worked under trade machine
Portland gets 5 #1 picks and Buddy is cheaper per yr than CJ
For Kings , Buddy and Bagley dont want to be here
We get two defensive players
Fox,Wright,Ramsey
Hali,TD,James
Simmons, Thybulle
Barnes, Metu, Woodard
Noel, Jones
Not sure where the scoring comes from
but 3 new Defensive players
Portland gets 5 #1 picks and Buddy is cheaper per yr than CJ
For Kings , Buddy and Bagley dont want to be here
We get two defensive players
Fox,Wright,Ramsey
Hali,TD,James
Simmons, Thybulle
Barnes, Metu, Woodard
Noel, Jones
Not sure where the scoring comes from
but 3 new Defensive players
I appreciate Daryl Morey's need to deal from a position of strength, but if he and his front office are considering a player like De'Aaron Fox as only a "starting point" (!!!) in trade talks for Ben Simmons, then they should be prepared to run it back with an Embiid/Simmons pairing that hasn't managed to get beyond the second round in four straight seasons while residing in the lesser conference. Good luck with that.
Nobody is going to "start" by offering a player of Fox's caliber with the need to add more to the deal in order to acquire a player whose stock has sunk throughout the league because he's too afraid to shoot the ball, particularly in crunch time situations.
Nobody is going to "start" by offering a player of Fox's caliber with the need to add more to the deal in order to acquire a player whose stock has sunk throughout the league because he's too afraid to shoot the ball, particularly in crunch time situations.