Trade / Luke or both

#31
Needs a fresh start apart from Haliburton, the new rookie and Holmes (who will be made a back up the second the Kings can find a starting C) everyone else has to go. I said last season giving Fox a max contract was insane and he's proving it. The trade does not need to be for SImmons it can be for starting level guys and picks.
 
#33
Vivek's too trusting and usually manipulated by the wrong people. That's his problem. He chooses the smooth talkers every time. He falls in love with their sharp suits and online degrees. He picks the Pete D'Allesandros over the Mike Malones. He told Vlade straight out Dumars wouldn't interfere in any way. Then Dumars did interfere in that exact way as they tried to talk Vlade into giving Joe more power. Vlade left. That's how it went down. People bashed Vlade but careful what you wish for. Vlade to his credit tried to at least somewhat head off the problems at the pass. He didn't duck his head in the sand. Meddling? I don't agree either. In order to meddle I think he would have to have a firmer grasp on the NBA as both a business and game than he even really cares to.
I am not saying Vivek doesn't have problems, and certainly not suggesting that he is a good owner. IIRC, in a recent survey, he was voted the worst owner in NBA (might even have been all of pro sports).

My objection was to the argument that the decision about hiring Bobby or otherwise will be made/influenced by Vivek. While I expect the owner to be involved in the decision to hire a head coach, I am not aware of his meddlesome ways of recent past, if any.

This includes the incident you have described. I wasn't aware of the conflict between Vlade and Joe, so perhaps I am too generous in giving him the benefit of the doubt. While we are on this topic, I do wonder if we have too many cooks. To a limited extent, it may be beneficial as they can act as a check against the mistakes of one person, but there is always a point where it will become an issue. While the results are far from satisfactory, I don't really fault Monte's moves. Yes, he lost Bogdan for nothing, but he did make a reasonable trade, but was bushwhacked from the other end. Same for Buddy. I think the only real quibble I have is that he paid Fox max money before he had earned it (still hasn't). Overall though, I think he has done a decent job, and if he is being stymied by Joe or someone else, perhaps we need to make some changes there.

Back to Vivek, his single worst move was firing Malone. He was the first good coach we had since Rick, and we got rid of him for some crazy Jazz idea.
 
#34
I am not saying Vivek doesn't have problems, and certainly not suggesting that he is a good owner. IIRC, in a recent survey, he was voted the worst owner in NBA (might even have been all of pro sports).

My objection was to the argument that the decision about hiring Bobby or otherwise will be made/influenced by Vivek. While I expect the owner to be involved in the decision to hire a head coach, I am not aware of his meddlesome ways of recent past, if any.

This includes the incident you have described. I wasn't aware of the conflict between Vlade and Joe, so perhaps I am too generous in giving him the benefit of the doubt. While we are on this topic, I do wonder if we have too many cooks. To a limited extent, it may be beneficial as they can act as a check against the mistakes of one person, but there is always a point where it will become an issue. While the results are far from satisfactory, I don't really fault Monte's moves. Yes, he lost Bogdan for nothing, but he did make a reasonable trade, but was bushwhacked from the other end. Same for Buddy. I think the only real quibble I have is that he paid Fox max money before he had earned it (still hasn't). Overall though, I think he has done a decent job, and if he is being stymied by Joe or someone else, perhaps we need to make some changes there.

Back to Vivek, his single worst move was firing Malone. He was the first good coach we had since Rick, and we got rid of him for some crazy Jazz idea.
I agree on that last point completely. It was like a perfect metaphor for what went wrong at the beginning of the Vivek era: A geek trusted analytics and other geeks far more than actual basketball professionals. Vivek got sold on a certain image rather than the actual results that were being produced. Thats what happens when you're a sucker. Credit where it is due, I don't think I have heard anything from Vivek in a long time, as it should be.
 
#36
Vivek's too trusting and usually manipulated by the wrong people. That's his problem. He chooses the smooth talkers every time. He falls in love with their sharp suits and online degrees. He picks the Pete D'Allesandros over the Mike Malones. He told Vlade straight out Dumars wouldn't interfere in any way. Then Dumars did interfere in that exact way as they tried to talk Vlade into giving Joe more power. Vlade left. That's how it went down. People bashed Vlade but careful what you wish for. Vlade to his credit tried to at least somewhat head off the problems at the pass. He didn't duck his head in the sand. Meddling? I don't agree either. In order to meddle I think he would have to have a firmer grasp on the NBA as both a business and game than he even really cares to.
Where do you come up with this. You're fooling yourself. Vivek made the decision to fire Malone. And Vivek had Pete make the call informing Malone. Vlade didn't leave. His job was taken away from him Luke stays because Vivek says he stays. This is not our GM's decision but Viveks...and I know purely a financial decision to save money and not pay another coach. And the next hire will be by Vivek. He is the owner. Come on man. Wake up. and btw. We lose, because the opposing teams have better players. Why did you think that we would be better than last year....Tristin? It is all sales hype. With good players, even you "Sactownkid" could coach the team. Kings would be better with a new coach?...can the new coach play small forward. Fire the coach, Fire the Coach, fire the coach...Well that is what they thought with the firing of Mike Malone. And off the coaching bench came Tyrone Corbin. How did that work out? little Secret "It is not the coach, It's the players." Get players who can play.
 
#37
Fire Luke. But I am not sure about trades. The roster lacks talent but because of the botched drafts before Monte was on board, with the exception of the Fox draft, our team is lacking talent it otherwise could have had. I don’t think Simmons is the answer. But hey Monte is better at talent evealuation than me, so I’ll be good with whatever he decides.
 
#39
I've been begging for a real rebuild for multiple years in a row now. Maybe this is the year? If Fox isnt truly a star level player then this roster is pretty much doomed with our limited cap situation and projected draft position.

It would be absolutely stupid if year after year we just keep chasing the 8th seed without a real plan to become an actual good team. We have to forfeit this season, trade our expensive vets that have some value, play and develope the young guys and set our focus to few years ahead. Only way or atleast the most probable way that anything changes is that for few years we make decisions that will benefit us in the future. Otherwise we can keep on doing this and year after year hope that the 9th-12th draft pick will magically change everything.

What was the famous quote? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
 
#40
Where do you come up with this. You're fooling yourself. Vivek made the decision to fire Malone. And Vivek had Pete make the call informing Malone. Vlade didn't leave. His job was taken away from him Luke stays because Vivek says he stays. This is not our GM's decision but Viveks...and I know purely a financial decision to save money and not pay another coach. And the next hire will be by Vivek. He is the owner. Come on man. Wake up. and btw. We lose, because the opposing teams have better players. Why did you think that we would be better than last year....Tristin? It is all sales hype. With good players, even you "Sactownkid" could coach the team. Kings would be better with a new coach?...can the new coach play small forward. Fire the coach, Fire the Coach, fire the coach...Well that is what they thought with the firing of Mike Malone. And off the coaching bench came Tyrone Corbin. How did that work out? little Secret "It is not the coach, It's the players." Get players who can play.
Vivek also made the call to go for the playoffs. Last year was the year to reset and set this team up for the future. Vivek wouldn’t let it happen.
 
#41
I've been begging for a real rebuild for multiple years in a row now. Maybe this is the year? If Fox isnt truly a star level player then this roster is pretty much doomed with our limited cap situation and projected draft position.

It would be absolutely stupid if year after year we just keep chasing the 8th seed without a real plan to become an actual good team. We have to forfeit this season, trade our expensive vets that have some value, play and develope the young guys and set our focus to few years ahead. Only way or atleast the most probable way that anything changes is that for few years we make decisions that will benefit us in the future. Otherwise we can keep on doing this and year after year hope that the 9th-12th draft pick will magically change everything.

What was the famous quote? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
If there is one thing we know about Vivek since his tenure here began, it's that a full rebuild will not be happening. He doesn't have the patience for it and I don't think he would be able to stomach sub 20 wins for multiple seasons
 
#44
If it were me I would make the Simmons trade and see how it goes. Luke wants to play a movement style like Golden State and Simmons is a good player for that type of game whereas Fox is a ball stopper:

You have a set of good line-ups:
Holmes, Barnes, Simmons, Hield, Haliburton

Small line-up of
Simmons, Barnes, Hield, Haliburton, Mitchell

Defensive stopper
Holmes, Simmons, Barnes, Haliburton, Mitchell

Shooters and Simmons:
Haliburton, Hield, King, Barnes, Simmons

I could well see going offense/defense at the end of games swapping Holmes and Hield.
 
#45
If it were me I would make the Simmons trade and see how it goes. Luke wants to play a movement style like Golden State and Simmons is a good player for that type of game whereas Fox is a ball stopper:

You have a set of good line-ups:
Holmes, Barnes, Simmons, Hield, Haliburton

Small line-up of
Simmons, Barnes, Hield, Haliburton, Mitchell

Defensive stopper
Holmes, Simmons, Barnes, Haliburton, Mitchell

Shooters and Simmons:
Haliburton, Hield, King, Barnes, Simmons

I could well see going offense/defense at the end of games swapping Holmes and Hield.
I think I would do the opposite. Get rid of Luke and see how it goes. I wouldn't want to make moves for Luke's preferred play, he hasn't earned that. That has nothing to do with my regard for Simmons but for Luke saying one thing and doing another. Is the product on the court what was sold to the ticket holders?

A coach playing to the strengths of the players he does have can rehab value for future moves. A coach that can only coach his system ain't worth it. Things change.....
 
#46
The roster needs to be changed. Luke isn't good but why fire him when we need to dismantal the team? No coaching change is going to change this team into a playoff contender.

Let someone start fresh next season and save $5+ million and the headache. Barnes, Buddy, Bagley, TT likely traded. I'm on the fence with Fox but am open to listening to offers. Probably better to let him get back on track so his value gets back up to all-star(ish) levels.
 
#47
The roster needs to be changed. Luke isn't good but why fire him when we need to dismantal the team? No coaching change is going to change this team into a playoff contender.

Let someone start fresh next season and save $5+ million and the headache. Barnes, Buddy, Bagley, TT likely traded. I'm on the fence with Fox but am open to listening to offers. Probably better to let him get back on track so his value gets back up to all-star(ish) levels.
Is he helping matters or making them worse? If the team was built with a vision in mind and the coach insists on playing them against that vision, how can you analyze anything conclusively?

One thing that has been consistent during Vivek's reign of terror is incompetence, there has always been a power struggle. Might work in some industries but when you need your components working as a team, you don’t need factions.
 
#49
[QUOTE="gilly420, post: 1601988, member: 1036"z] No coaching change is going to change this team into a playoff contender.

I'm not convinced of this. There is enough talent on this team to compete for a 7th/8th seed, under a coach like Malone or even Dave Joerger
I just don’t see it. The team is bad. It’s always been bad. We had half a decent season running like crazy before the league figured the team out and we sucked again. A good coach isn’t enough.
 
#50
I just don’t see it. The team is bad. It’s always been bad. We had half a decent season running like crazy before the league figured the team out and we sucked again. A good coach isn’t enough.
even if the players are good the fit of the roster is so poor it doesn’t matter. The roster construction is a complete cluster.
 
#51
Luke is so bad that I don’t think you can fairly judge either roster make up or player talent at this point.

He has completely **** the bed as HC, which I suppose is what you’d expect from somebody that got Vlade excited.

He puts every player out there in a position to fail, it’s not just a lack of knowing his roster’s strengths, it’s as if he doesn’t even know the basic skill sets each player brings. And if Luke does stumble upon something that works, he’ll go away from it and never look back.

Do we have a talent logjam in the backcourt? Yes. Do we need more wings? Yes. But I think that this roster should be playing faaaaaar better than they are. I’m still a believer in Fox too.

Fire Luke. You have to do that before even trying to figure out the rest, Luke is just that bad.
 
#52
Where do you come up with this. You're fooling yourself. Vivek made the decision to fire Malone. And Vivek had Pete make the call informing Malone. Vlade didn't leave. His job was taken away from him Luke stays because Vivek says he stays. This is not our GM's decision but Viveks...and I know purely a financial decision to save money and not pay another coach. And the next hire will be by Vivek. He is the owner. Come on man. Wake up. and btw. We lose, because the opposing teams have better players. Why did you think that we would be better than last year....Tristin? It is all sales hype. With good players, even you "Sactownkid" could coach the team. Kings would be better with a new coach?...can the new coach play small forward. Fire the coach, Fire the Coach, fire the coach...Well that is what they thought with the firing of Mike Malone. And off the coaching bench came Tyrone Corbin. How did that work out? little Secret "It is not the coach, It's the players." Get players who can play.
Malone left, PDA stayed. Those are the results, no arguing now. We saw it go down HE CHOSE PETE. GM's for any legit franchise make these decisions and every word from Vivek has been he's letting his GM do the gig. Is it true? Maybe not, but after seeing Vivek for this long, I have doubts about his actual involvement on a daily basis when it comes to anything other than letting the wrong person lead the charge from the shadows.

Again, firing the coach is a totally separate issue to me. Tell me a team that fired a GM (since he didn't leave... apparently) that hand picked a coach where that coach stayed on with the organization to long terms success?
 
#53
Luke is so bad that I don’t think you can fairly judge either roster make up or player talent at this point.

He has completely **** the bed as HC, which I suppose is what you’d expect from somebody that got Vlade excited.

He puts every player out there in a position to fail, it’s not just a lack of knowing his roster’s strengths, it’s as if he doesn’t even know the basic skill sets each player brings. And if Luke does stumble upon something that works, he’ll go away from it and never look back.

Do we have a talent logjam in the backcourt? Yes. Do we need more wings? Yes. But I think that this roster should be playing faaaaaar better than they are. I’m still a believer in Fox too.

Fire Luke. You have to do that before even trying to figure out the rest, Luke is just that bad.
Exactly. There are enough people here that recognize that Fox is damn good but Walton is effing it all up. How many of these guys are playing above or at their norm. It’s bad.
 
#54
Vivek also made the call to go for the playoffs. Last year was the year to reset and set this team up for the future. Vivek wouldn’t let it happen.
Which is a call a owners can make, and should make since it's their money. In terms of day to day operation, I don't think he's that able to function nor does he at that level otherwise I think you'd see movement to the extent it would be obvious owner meddling. Now that they are a bit desperate maybe it happens, maybe not. We'll see. This team has the tools to make the playoffs. Heck, they nearly made the play in last year with Luke Walton as coach. It's Vivek, Montes, or anyone elses mistake if they think they nearly made it because of him rather than in spite of him. Regardless, rebuild or go for it is a directional choice. Monte said that Vivek has given him all the tools to make the playoffs and compete. That's either a lie or Monte is in over his head.
 
#55
The roster needs to be changed. Luke isn't good but why fire him when we need to dismantal the team? No coaching change is going to change this team into a playoff contender.

Let someone start fresh next season and save $5+ million and the headache. Barnes, Buddy, Bagley, TT likely traded. I'm on the fence with Fox but am open to listening to offers. Probably better to let him get back on track so his value gets back up to all-star(ish) levels.
Because again, at the very least it's an optics move that sides with history and doesn't necessarily negate you from dismantling the team down the line. And if they do it gets rid of the leftover stench of failure not to mention Luke Waltons history of player development mostly includes boosting Kyle Kuzma over Ingram and Randle. No thanks to that. Walton is a holdover and now you have crowds chanting to fire the guy. Sorry, you screwed the pooch Vivek/Monte, give Luke his money and tell him to say hi to Vlade. If history was any indication it was ALWAYS going to end that way considering how this all went down to begin with.
 
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#56
Luke is so bad that I don’t think you can fairly judge either roster make up or player talent at this point.

He has completely **** the bed as HC, which I suppose is what you’d expect from somebody that got Vlade excited.

He puts every player out there in a position to fail, it’s not just a lack of knowing his roster’s strengths, it’s as if he doesn’t even know the basic skill sets each player brings. And if Luke does stumble upon something that works, he’ll go away from it and never look back.

Do we have a talent logjam in the backcourt? Yes. Do we need more wings? Yes. But I think that this roster should be playing faaaaaar better than they are. I’m still a believer in Fox too.

Fire Luke. You have to do that before even trying to figure out the rest, Luke is just that bad.
And this whole thing never started fresh and new to begin with. How can you expect change when you never go all the way with it? Vlade did the same fail tactic with Karl. As soon as that situation went full toxicity Vlade should have nipped either Cuz or Karl. Monte needed to nip Walton ASAP once it looked like things were stagnating. And there is also no conversation against this next factor, with Waltons recent usage and return to classic bball, he's going against everything Monte has built no matter how flawed the roster may or may not be. Walton isn't remotely committing to the style Monte described. Someones gotta go.
 
#59
I was behind McNair, feeling he deserves time for things to come together. But his failure to fire Walton after last night's disaster turns me against both of them now. There is a black cloud over the team and it is McNair's job to remove it. He didn't.

Fire both, let someone fresh have ago at the roster. Front office has let this team and city down, big time.