Trade idea that makes sense....for real!

AriesMar27 said:
i spent the entire summer comparing evans to brandon roy and john salmons(to a lesser extent) and got nothing but grief. but all of a sudden its the thing to do now, comparing him to good but not great players that arent pgs... if you dont wanna do it, i'll be the first to say it. evans will be the next brandon roy.... a good but not great sg with above average passing skills... who is a pretty good rebounder for his position. he will more than likely be voted in as an all-star reserve by the coaches at least once in his career. i think it will be his 3rd year, martin will be moved by next trade deadline.
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I believe you're misreading Brick's post if you're thinking it bolsters your assessment.
 
NME said:
I believe you're misreading Brick's post if you're thinking it bolsters your assessment.
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I believe he is intentionally misreading my post. ;)

Here you go Aries, try to spin this:

Tyreke Evans is a jumpshot away from treating this league like his personal chewtoy. When that jumper arrives, he is a Top 20 type talent. He may in fact end up being a Top 10 type talent. A perennial All Star talent.
 
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'Reke's early numbers are very comparable to D Wade's numbers when he was a rookie at a similar age. How is that for comparison to a great player?
 
Kingster said:
Not ignoring that at all. Instead, I perceive with some on this board think that having Evans is the be all and end all. It's not. I look at our future competition. OKC and Portland, for example. OKC has three legit stars. We have one. Maybe one and half if you count Donte as 1/2 (he has a high enough ceiling to be a legit star). Portland has at least two, if not three legit stars. To compete in the future with these teams, we can't sit back and waste our capital on pedestrian players like Okafor and Dalembert. We'll be the Utah and they they will be the Lakers and Boston.
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I think you are giving OKC and Portland's players too much credit. OKC has 1 legit star in Durant. Westbrook is showing signs of becoming a 2nd star, but no other player on that team is more than a solid NBA player. Portland has a star in Brandon Roy. Greg Oden is finally showing some signs that he will become a star (must be more consistent and stay healthy). Everyone else on Portland is also no more than a solid NBA player.

The Kings look they they have found a star in Tyreke Evens. Martin would be classified as a star by many around the league (I would put him as a solid NBA player). Greene may become a star (too early to tell), and the rest of the team is no better than solid NBA players.

The biggest difference between Portland and Sacramento would be the quality of the players 3-8. As for OKC, I don't see that much difference between them and Sac other than a little experience.
 
Kingster said:
Not ignoring that at all. Instead, I perceive with some on this board think that having Evans is the be all and end all. It's not. I look at our future competition. OKC and Portland, for example. OKC has three legit stars. We have one. Maybe one and half if you count Donte as 1/2 (he has a high enough ceiling to be a legit star). Portland has at least two, if not three legit stars. To compete in the future with these teams, we can't sit back and waste our capital on pedestrian players like Okafor and Dalembert. We'll be the Utah and they they will be the Lakers and Boston.
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What can give Tyreke the edge over stars such as Kevin Durant is his ability to play defense at a very high level. So teams such as OKC and Portland might have their main guy, but they don't bring the defense the way that Tyreke can. And his ability to play defense really allows the Kings a lot more flexibility in finding line-ups which can work to make this team a contender.

Barring injury I'd rather have Oden over Hawes, but for the same reason I'd want Oden over Hawes I'd want JT over LaMarcus. And if Westhphal can continue to push Donte to mature, I think Donte has the ability to be better than anyone on the Portland team except for Roy, and be our second best player behind Tyreke.
The fact that both Donte and Tyreke are so young bodes very well for this team, as it means their upside is still tremendous.

We all agree that this is a star-driven league. But sometimes a good fit is more important than a star. I think that Billups is a better player than AI, but at the time of the trade no-one thought that Billups would mesh with Melo as well as those two did, and a good amount of people considered AI the best player/star in that trade.

I think we're one legit defensive bigman away from playoff consideration right now, and since a good draft-pick seems out of the question now, the best way for us to get in on the better free-agent pickings is to be a good team so that other players will want to sign with us.

I'd be willing to part with pretty much any of our pieces (Kevin, KT's expiring, our 1st, Hawes, JT, Noc, Beno, ect.) if we could get a legitimate star back. The problem is that teams don't normally trade away young, healthy, star players so sometimes you've got to bring in the best talent/fit that you can, even if it isn't a superstar. For us, that would be a defensive-minded center, and I'm positive that is the primary item on Geoff's list.
 
Bricklayer said:
I believe he is intentionally misreading my post. ;)

Here you go Aries, try to spin this:

Tyreke Evans is a jumpshot away from treating this league like his personal chewtoy. When that jumper arrives, he is a Top 20 type talent. He may in fact end up being a Top 10 type talent. A perennial All Star talent.
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Pure poetry...
 
Its sooooo true too.

His rebounding numbers will probably not rise all that dramatically over the course of his career, maybe topping out at 5.5 or 6 for a season or two. I dont expect him to ever really put up more than 7 apg either.

...But once he gets a shot (Coachie willing), Reke will be AT LEAST a 25 ppg scorer at a high FG% for a guard.


...And he plays D too..
 
gunks said:
Its sooooo true too.

His rebounding numbers will probably not rise all that dramatically over the course of his career, maybe topping out at 5.5 or 6 for a season or two. I dont expect him to ever really put up more than 7 apg either.

...But once he gets a shot (Coachie willing), Reke will be AT LEAST a 25 ppg scorer at a high FG% for a guard.


...And he plays D too..
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Best case for Reke is he tops out with a Dwayne Wade type of stat line... I was saying that before the draft and I still feel that way.
 
Bricklayer said:
We have a star, now we are trying to put together the team around him. Be wonderful to get a 2nd star, but those very very rarely come via free agency. And most of the stars in free agency would directly conflict with the one we already have -- nto a reason not to get them, but certainly a reason to recognize that there may be other avenues to maximizing our position. Sitting around waiting to sign LeBron isn't really a likely plan anymore than buying a lottery ticket is a plan toward financial success.

Right now we have a team playing .500 ball with youth youth and more youth. We've got the star guard. I am increasingly confident we have our SF, although I go back and forth over whether its the potential star (Greene) or the potential super-roleplayer (Casspi). Either way the other one can make a very effective 6th man. That spot next to Reke almost does not seem to matter in the short term -- we can put almost anyone over there it seems and they all succeed in their own way. Some of that is definitely all the attention which Reke is drawing, and will draw into the future. So the positon of need, the spot we need to bump, is inside. Find a star big man. Barring that, find a stopper of a big man. And then sit on it. In 2 years Reke, Donte, Casspi, Jason, Hawes, possibly Sergio & Brockman -- over half our roster is going to be better, and likely considerably better, than it is today.

We've got three major assets making little to no impact on our current success (Kevin, the #1 pick, and Kenny's ender), we've got one minor asset not making any contribution ot our current success (Cisco), and we've got 1 or 2 potentially expendable expenisve assets making solid contributions (Beno, Noc). Between all that, if there is a deal to be made out there, we should be able to put forward a strong package to make it. In fact a Kevin, #1 and Kenny (ender) package woould be one fo the strongest anyone in the league could make for an available player wihtout cutting into their core. So we should be out there actively looking. Take a yougn team playing well together, add something to fix their biggest hole without subtracting anything/losing any of the youth, and you could make a legit playoff run out of nowhere with one of the youngest rosters in the league and all kinds of room to get better year after year therafter. Would be a spectacularly successful season if you could pull that off.
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First, we need more than one star. The future competition will be fierce, other teams have two or three stars. Second, I'm not limiting this discussion to getting a star through FA. The universe to find this star could come through FA, trade, or draft. Third, LeBron is an example, not the principle thrust of my post. Fourth, "sitting around" can sometimes be the very best thing you can do to improve your team. Sitting is important in getting whoppers. You can go down to the aquarium very quickly and get a minnow, but getting a whopper requires patience at the wattering hole.

If I understand you correctly, I disagree with the thrust of your post. In essence, it's the "all we have to do is get a functional piece or two and wait until these young guys get better". I just vehemently disagree with that notion. I don't disagree with the notion that the young guys will get better. They will. I just disagree with what seems to be a fairly complacent response to our future competition. Sure, I can definitely see us getting into the playoffs in a couple of years. But as you very well know, getting a ring is an entirely different situation.

Maybe some of the disagreement is just semantics. You, after all, have suggested getting Bosh (a star), and would like to get Oden (who I believe to be a future star) and Noah (on the brink of becoming a star). This is where everybody can quibble about who is a star and who isn't. But I think we can agree who isn't a star - the Dalembert's and Okafor's of the NBA.

Lastly, if this team as it's now constituted actually is at .500 at the end of this year, I will agree with you that all we have to do is sit back and watch the pot boil (after throwing in a couple of lobsters that come through trade), but I highly doubt that we're at that level.
 
Bricklayer said:
I believe he is intentionally misreading my post. (i needed the extra smilie)am27

Here you go Aries, try to spin this:

Tyreke Evans is a jumpshot away from treating this league like his personal chewtoy. When that jumper arrives, he is a Top 20 type talent. He may in fact end up being a Top 10 type talent. A perennial All Star talent.
Click to expand...

i'll try to spin this... :D

so what? if he gets his jumper down to a science he will be one hell of a scorer. okay...:rolleyes: that doesnt make him a pg. i never said that he was a bad player, i think that he will be a good player. juts not a pg.

why does this sound so familiar? hmmmm....:confused: oh yeah, this is all we talked about over the summer. once you guys get over the fact that i dont dislike evans this place will be a lot more peaceful. just because i dont think that he will be a pg doesnt mean that i think that he will be a bust. just not a pg.... now why does this sound familiar? hmmm... oh yeah, this is the same thing that happened when we drafted douby. i wanted sergio because he was a real pg and everyone got on my case because i wasnt an nba gm like petrie who can do no wrong in the draft.

oh man... this is gonna be a long season. its only december 2nd.
 
Kingster said:
Maybe some of the disagreement is just semantics. You, after all, have suggested getting Bosh (a star), and would like to get Oden (who I believe to be a future star) and Noah (on the brink of becoming a star). This is where everybody can quibble about who is a star and who isn't. But I think we can agree who isn't a star - the Dalembert's and Okafor's of the NBA.
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If Noah qualifies for the brink of stardom, then so does Thompson, so we're up to at least two. :)
 
Marcin Gortat is interesting, everytime he plays for Howard he tears it up.
 
Kingster said:
That's where I would quibble. I think Thompson is a tad below Noah in star potential.
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Woah, woah, woah. Noah has the potential to be a SUPER role player, but honestly he lacks really any star potential. Thompson has the tools to become a star, he may or may not be the better player right now, but in 3 years I think he most definitely will be.
 
All this cart-before-the-horse discussion has my head spinning. Stars, semi-stars, emerging stars, super stars, etc, etc, etc. Up until this year Kevin was our "star", a borderline All-Star on a bad team. Remember Mitch Richmond? Same thing, star on bad teams, but he not only became an All-Star, he earned an MVP of the All-Star game. Then injury (Kevin), an emerging star (Evans), emerging star#2 (JT), new coach, 6 new players (I could say 7 if we count Greene's breakout). All the sudden one more star and off the Kings go.

Heck, we don't even know what they can do this year and how well they learn to play together. The Kings still are a 17-win team from last year with a wild long shot to even get close to playoffs. None of the big names, especially the tall ones, are going to want to come to Sacto..............yet. When the top echelon teams skim the cream off the top, if they choose, then the Kings are in good position to land a 2nd tier "star" or nearly so. And I know GP is not going to throw big money at someone who is likely to take the money and run.

To be practical, we should consider in our passionate discussions, the reality side of the Kings situation. From a players perspective, who "wants" to come west to the Kings and do they see a fit that GP sees? Having a 3rd "big" is essential I think. But is it a Milicic? possibly. Is it a Bosh? not likely. Is there a CWebb out there who becomes a star after coming to the Kings? Thats what what I'm looking for. Who is it? Have no clue at the moment. But there are diamonds in the rough around. Look at Donte Greene, a borderline bust last year then all the sudden, steps up a notch and a half. Who woulda thought?
 
Kingster said:
The Lakers got Gasol for a song. They basically said to Memphis: We'll give you nothing for Gasol. How about it? They asked the incredibly outlandish question. It was so "illogical". It was ridiculous. Petrie needs to ask that ridiclously outlandish question when it comes to every star he perceives in the NBA currently, not waste time and capital thinking about players like Okafor and Dalembert.
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1 - We don't know that Petrie isn't.

2 - While the Grizzlies could have gotten more for Pau if they had shopped him around, I remain one of the few people who actually feel they get overly criticized for that deal. I know I am opening myself up for flaming here, but quite frankly they significantly jump started their rebuilding and would be even further ahead with a better GM.

Look at the facts. Gasol is a solid #2 player. He was never going to lead Memphis anywhere as their #1 player. In return for him, the Grizzlies got Marc Gasol who this year is playing nearly as well as Pau and is younger. They freed up significant cap space with Brown and McKey's expiring contracts. They gained two first round picks (one of which was used to draft Donte Green) and the other still comes next year. And they guaranteed a worse record that season which landed them the #4 pick (which they used on OJ Mayo). They also acquired another intriguing young prospect in the deal in Javaris Crittenton who was a bust, but had showed some potential. Crittenton was later traded to the Wizards in exchange for a future first round pick that the Grizzlies had previously traded the Wizards for Juan Carlos Navarro. Now Chris Wallace has bungled some of the assets they gained by using the cap space to acquire Zach Randolph and trading Donte Green for Darrel Arthur.

So all totaled the Grizzlies gained:


  • Marc Gasol (Pau lite, but younger)
  • Donte Green + another first round pick
  • 8-10 million dollars in cap space
  • OJ Mayo instead of likely Jared Bayless or DJ Augustine
  • Their own first round pick back (the first year they finish out of the lottery)
Overall, the Grizzlies did not do nearly as bad as most people seem to believe. Now, Chris Wallace has mucked it up with some other terrible moves. However, I still believe the Grizzlies get overly criticized for this trade.
 
Bosh has to be the most likely big name to sign elsewhere next year. I wonder what teams have the money and championship potential to attract him.
 
Arkitect said:
Bosh has to be the most likely big name to sign elsewhere next year. I wonder what teams have the money and championship potential to attract him.
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Miami, New York, Chicago. All of these teams have alot of cap room, located in large media markets, looking to sign multiple big names. One of those teams will DEFINITELY be MUCH better next year.
 
Nobody knows what Miami is going to do. I think they only have 2 or 3 players under contract... if DWade signs somewhere else, they might go into full tank rebuilding mode. New York is just weird... I have no idea if Bosh would be good for that offense. Yes, he can shoot very well for a big man, but he's not as athletic as Stoudamire so I'm not sure if he'd be the perfect 5 for that offense. Chicago is probably the best bet, they've needed a true C for a while now, and he and Noah could flip flop at the 4 and 5. Would make Bosh pretty effective if Noah was fighting for the boards and cleaning up the glass. He's a pretty good rebounder so I'm sure they'd have a tough time doubling Bosh on the block.
 
Bricklayer said:
Look hither Mr. Bosh! You'll find a team playing some defense...(or at least trying to) ;)
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Toronto got burned bad last night by Atlanta 115-146. Shouldn't be long before Toronto starts shopping him just so they aren't left empty handed at the end of the year.
 
Bricklayer said:
Somehow I am thinking going down in history as the All-time worst team is not your best recruiting pitch to a would be free agent savior wiht title dreams. ;)
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True, true. But John Wall, Brook Lopez and a new stadium in Brooklyn might mitigate that. ;)

(Of course, I'm not closely following the possible Brooklyn move, so I don't know where that stands. But I think it would help tremendously if something were in motion.)
 
vikinginferno said:
Woah, woah, woah. Noah has the potential to be a SUPER role player, but honestly he lacks really any star potential. Thompson has the tools to become a star, he may or may not be the better player right now, but in 3 years I think he most definitely will be.
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It depends what you mean by star. If you mean points, he's not going to make the cut. But he can be an excellent defender/rebounder/garbage-man star.
 
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AriesMar27 said:
i'll try to spin this... :D

so what? if he gets his jumper down to a science he will be one hell of a scorer. okay...:rolleyes: that doesnt make him a pg. i never said that he was a bad player, i think that he will be a good player. juts not a pg.

why does this sound so familiar? hmmmm....:confused: oh yeah, this is all we talked about over the summer. once you guys get over the fact that i dont dislike evans this place will be a lot more peaceful. just because i dont think that he will be a pg doesnt mean that i think that he will be a bust. just not a pg.... now why does this sound familiar? hmmm... oh yeah, this is the same thing that happened when we drafted douby. i wanted sergio because he was a real pg and everyone got on my case because i wasnt an nba gm like petrie who can do no wrong in the draft.

oh man... this is gonna be a long season. its only december 2nd.
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Ahhhh! Stupid me. I'm about to actually get serious with you for a second. So here goes. first off, I don't think that anyone thinks you dislike Tyreke. At least I don't think so. Secondly, I don't remember Bricky ever mentioning anything about point guards in his comparisons. When he compared Evans to Roy, it was about comparing Evans to a star and saying that his numbers were comparable. YOU, were the one that tried to turn it into a point guard conservation.

As I have previously stated, I don't care what you want to call Evans. Call him a center if you want. I only care that he's successful and that he becomes a star. Hopefully a superstar. I was a proponet of drafting Evans. I know that Kingster was as well. My original statement was something along the lines of, that in my opinion, the Kings need a star, a superstar is even better. And, in my opinion there are only two players in the draft that I think have a chance to be superstars. Griffin, and Evans. If we can't get Griffin, then we should draft Evans.

My opinion had nothing to do with his being a point guard or not. It had to do with his being a special player. However, that doesn't mean I think he can't be a point guard. The problem is that everyone has his or her own opinion of what they think a point guard is. But as far as I'm concerned, if Evans eventually ends up averaging 26 points, 8 assists, 8 rebounds, 2 steals, and 2 blocks a game, by god you go ahead and call him whatever you want.:D
 
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