Thoughts on Hawes?

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Hawes's strength is obviously his offense. His weakness is defense. So simple logic tells you that in order for him to help the team you need to get him him the ball on offense as much as possible. He should not be a "garbage" man, even if he is a rookie. He needs to get the ball in the post more - a lot more. The guards are hogging the ball now when he's on the floor. I know, I know - he's a rookie. SO WHAT? Feed him the freaking ball, especially in the low post, that is IF they have the capability of actually passing him the ball in the post. Then he can pass the ball out to them. If they feed Miki Moore and the other pf to rename nameless then it's a no brainer to feed the ball A LOT MORE TO HAWES!
 
One thing about being at Arco and not watching on t.v.: you get to watch the before game warmups and half time warmups. We decided to just watch Hawes. The kid can shoot the ball!!! And after two games, it seems too early to make some of the predictions that have been posted--the truth is there isn't a crystal ball. So, let's wait and see what is REALLY going to happen with this 19 year old and then postings will be valid. Annie.
 
He was pushed under the hoop and out of rebounding position by both Milsap and Boozer.


I seriously did not see that.. I saw him fighting to get position a couple times, but never pushed out of the way once he had position... Is that what you were saying or were you saying he was beat out getting position? I think he did pretty well for how lojng he has played.

Hawes is a smart player so I think he will develop some tricks to make up for lack of strength.
 
My question is, what should the people developing Hawes really work on with him? If he lacks the predisposition to rebound and/or defend, should they focus on him learning techniques to try to get those areas to be average? Or should they focus on his offensive kills that are already relatively excellent and try to make those NBA-level excellent?

If all of the above was possible, then that's obviously the answer, but if you can't focus a lot of time on everything, where do you put the effort?
 
Has anything changed since the beginning of the year?? Did anyone expect it to??

We knew this guy could score. Some of us might have wanted to see it for themselves before they believed in his scoring ability, but the rest of us knew that part of his game would translate relatively easily. Furthermore, we knew of all his shortcomings: youth, lack of strength, lack of nack for rebounding/defending the paint. We knew these things, and we should be thankful that there weren't any unexpected changes.

That said, Hawes is still at least a 2-3 year project, minimum. This year should be all about him getting comfortable in the league. After a season of getting acclimated, we/he/the team will really be able to identify what areas he needs to work on. Many of us have jumped the gun, and rightfully so, and have identified that he will need to get stronger, need to learn rebounding positioning, need to develop a nose for shotblocking, etc. And many of us still feel that he should still be paired with a rebounding/shotblocking freak-of-a-PF, irregardless of how he develops.

As for this year, I am just going to enjoy watching a 19 year old, get comfortable playing at the highest level. And once we have established a rebounding/shotblocking base for him this year, then I will look for improvement in years-to-come. I will also look to see if we can run some offense through him. That does't mean we should abandon Theus' run-and-gun philosophy, but when we do get in the halfcourt, we should begin to feed him the ball. He could really provide some stability to an otherwise erratic offense, even if it is off the bench for now.

This is how I see it, too.

Expecting too much too soon from this young man, though, was predictable. Kings fans, after suffering through last season, WANT a hero; they want to find things to celebrate and I think they want instant gratification from this year's draft selection, forgetting perhaps that most players don't make an instant impact on their team (with, of course, the notable exceptions like Lebron James).

This is gonna be a long season. I advice people to cheer for the small things when they can and not get too overly excited or dismayed with what we'll see the majority of the time.
 
My question is, what should the people developing Hawes really work on with him? If he lacks the predisposition to rebound and/or defend, should they focus on him learning techniques to try to get those areas to be average? Or should they focus on his offensive kills that are already relatively excellent and try to make those NBA-level excellent?

If all of the above was possible, then that's obviously the answer, but if you can't focus a lot of time on everything, where do you put the effort?

I think Hawes is a smart enough guy to work on a multitude of things to improve his game. I think he has a knack offensively which shouldn't go away. I say they work on strength training, and position to get rebounds. Defense will come with age and once he learns how each player out there plays. Once he gets to play a few of the opposing centers out there he will learn their tricks.
 
My question is, what should the people developing Hawes really work on with him? If he lacks the predisposition to rebound and/or defend, should they focus on him learning techniques to try to get those areas to be average? Or should they focus on his offensive kills that are already relatively excellent and try to make those NBA-level excellent?

If all of the above was possible, then that's obviously the answer, but if you can't focus a lot of time on everything, where do you put the effort?

I'll take a shot at answering that.

1) Offensively -- I was a little alarmed when I heard Reggie casually say that we were a pick and pop team with Brad and Spenser and that only Ron had a post game. Mortifying for Reef I am sure. But a major concern with the kid. I do not know whether Reggie said that because he has a bad read on Hawes' talents, or whether because the kid is already following through on his misguided threat to model himself after Brad (that he made around draft time). Either way...no. Get his *** in the post. He can shoot? Fine. Nifty. Irrelevant for the moment. Park his *** in the post and make him work it -- I have seen this kid show all kinds of nifty moves in there, but you can't let him become yet another lazy softie lurking on the perimeter. Make him post, keep him there, and only when he's established himself as a major threat inside do you let him pop out ot mix it up. He has the moves already -- you don't need to teach him them. You need to teach him the importance of using them. Oh, and if he takes another three, spank him. I mean, right there, on the sideline. Call a timeout, take him out of the game, get a big ole paddle, and give him a spanking.

2) Rebounding -- Spenser does not seem to have instincts as a rebounder. Does not react quickly, explode after them, snatch them. Not much of a body for it either, but not so bad there that its impossible. So two things. First, by getting his *** in the post, one side benefit is that you should keep him in offensive rebounding position, which he will not be if he does become Brad part II. Secondly, work very hard, make it a major focus, on blocking out. He rarely does it, and has been moved around and beat in there in nearly every game I have watched him in summer league/this season. So focus on the basics. Teach him to block out, EVERY time. He will still not have great instincts about where the ball is going, will still get muscled, but if you hammer it into him to block out and block out and block out, it will at least keep him focused on the ball, on trying to rebound, on impeding the man he is blocking out, and at his height he should be able to get some.

3) Defense -- a bit of a mystery. He does not appear to have the instincts here either. Will never be Marcus Camby no matter how many drills you run. But he's tall/long enough that he should be able to get you 1+ blocks a game with starter's minutes. Its highly unlikely he'll ever be any good as a team's primary shotblocker though -- high end is more of a decent support guy. And there is no drill you can run to make him into primary guy. So you have to make up your mind whether, given our lack of shotblcoking, you want to even put him into that role with all it implies of leaving his man to come over and try to help as our "goalie", or whether it s better to keep him on his guy, blocking out, impeding, but not trying to be a special presence inside. Man defense = who knows. Best thing there is at his height, have him workout, workout, and workout some more. He has the length, I think he has some competitiveness, so concentrate on building strength.


If he's going to be a starter one day here are the rough threshold numbers you need to get him to:

Rebounds: 8.0
Blocks: 1.5

Those are still weak. But they are the kind of minimal competence numbers that can justify a guy being out there if he develops into a strong scorer.
 
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And the award for post of the day is:

Bricklayer said:
...Oh, and if he takes another three, spank him. I mean, right there, on the sideline. Call a timeout, take him out of the game, get a big ole paddle, and give him a spanking...

I do NOT want to see our frontcourt shooting threes, unless - for some reason known only to Stern and the great God Naismith - the value of a spinning half-hook from the low post is suddenly increased to three points.
 
And the award for post of the day is:



I do NOT want to see our frontcourt shooting threes, unless - for some reason known only to Stern and the great God Naismith - the value of a spinning half-hook from the low post is suddenly increased to three points.

I totally disagree with you and Brick. If the kid has a skill, use it! He can shoot outside and inside. He can pass from the high post or the low post. Use it! If he has a big guy like Shaq guarding him, take him outside. If he has a smaller guy guard him, take him inside. Why wouldn't you want him to take a Mutombo-like player outside to reduce his ability to block shots and rebound? Makes no sense to me. To prevent him from doing one is to tie one arm behind his back. Don't try to fit him into your ideal center model. Build the center model around what he can do, not what you think he should do.
 
I totally disagree with you and Brick. If the kid has a skill, use it! He can shoot outside and inside. He can pass from the high post or the low post. Use it! If he has a big guy like Shaq guarding him, take him outside. If he has a smaller guy guard him, take him inside. Why wouldn't you want him to take a Mutombo-like player outside to reduce his ability to block shots and rebound? Makes no sense to me. To prevent him from doing one is to tie one arm behind his back. Don't try to fit him into your ideal center model. Build the center model around what he can do, not what you think he should do.
But isn't that the point? He has excellent low post skills, so don't let him get near the three point line.

If he had excellent three-point shooting skills, you might have an argument, but I don't think he does.
 
The only range that's really needed is the ability to hit an open 15-footer. If he gets pushed outside the paint and a defender is forced to stay with him, it creates opportunities for other players.

It can be detrimental for his development to start thinking about the three point line; I'd prefer him to never leave the area around the basket, since he can be VERY creative offensively there. That's a talent few players in the NBA have, but you can find just about anyone that can toss up a three.
 
I'm not sure people are actually disagreeing at least on what we know. The disagreement has to do with what we don't know and are assuming.

Kingster's 2nd sentence is the gist of his argument. As I don't know if Hawes has three point range, I don't know what he should work on. Certainly he has quite a range on his shot. If someone here knows that he cannot hit an NBA three pointer, let us know. Let us not assume he doesn't have it. IF he has a decent three point shot, he will be a monster to defend.

If he does not have NBA three point range, of course I agree that isn't what he should be working on.

Personally, I think the kid is pretty bright and knows what he needs to work on offensively. He has an uncle who played in the NBA (I think) so probably knows very well what his limitations are.

_________


Just as a further comment on his lack of rebounding and shot blocking skills: I'm not sure these can be taught or can't be taught. It would not surprise me if he has virtually ignored learning any rebounding skills. There is only so much one can master by age 19 and clearly he has spent a lot of time on his offense.
 
Yeah somebody should tell that Dirk guys to quit taking 3's. Big men shouldn't do that you know. :rolleyes:

If he can hit 'em, shoot 'em.
 
Comparing Hawes to Dirk? Based on what, exactly?

Come on... How many times have people complained and whined about Miller stepping back and taking a three? They complained about Webber doing it, too.

We don't need another outside shooter, especially if it pulls a legitimate big man out of position. If he's going to do any kind of rebounding, he needs to be close enough to catch the stupid ball.

I think he should be focusing on what we need. And that's NOT another big who thinks he's a perimeter shooter. Encouraging him at this point in time just seems very premature and not what I was hoping for at all.
 
Yeah somebody should tell that Dirk guys to quit taking 3's. Big men shouldn't do that you know. :rolleyes:

If he can hit 'em, shoot 'em.

Good god man. Ever wonder why the mavs got owned in the playoffs last year. They never had a post presence. Having a guy in the post gives you solid reliable scoring. Look at the shooting percentages of guys who primarily play in the post. The good ones are always 50+%.

Yao Ming shoots 90% from the foul line and has a great jumpshot. Hell in China he shot 3 pointers. You want him camping out there. Of course not, because he's a beast in the post. Having a post game is so critical when jump shots aren't falling. It gives you guaranteed offense. It creates so many mismatches and forces teams to double.

Shooting a midrange shot every now and then is one thing. Settling for 3s is another. Also, it messes up your rebounding position to shoot lots of jumpers. And considering Hawes isn't exactly Dennis Rodman, it would probably serve him better to hang out in the post.

Let your guards shoot the ball. Have Hawes in the post.
 
Yeah somebody should tell that Dirk guys to quit taking 3's. Big men shouldn't do that you know. :rolleyes:
You're damned right they shouldn't... It comes as no surprise (at least, not to me), that Dallas has yet to win the big one. And, as long as Nowitzki is content to camp out at the three-point line, they're never going to.

I personally would just as soon have nothing to do with "bigs" like that.

EDIT - What supamari0 said
 
Actually, I thought I remember reading/hearing that Avery Johnson greatly reduced the number of three point shots Nowitzki was taking and that coincided with the Mavs becoming legitimate contenders.

Yup... a check of that stats says that he went from over 4.5 attempts a game from 00-03 to 3.3 the year they went to the Finals and 2.2 last year.
 
I think what Kingster was saying, is to let the game dictate how he plays. If the other team has a shot blocking center, it may be advantagous to have Hawes play away from the basket at times to open up the middle for other people. I watched him play in college and he seldom took three pointers. One of his favorite shots is a 15 to 18ft. fall away on the left baseline. He has a hook shot with either hand from either side, and was near unstoppable under the basket in college when he got the ball. I personally think he will remind people more of Valde than Miller as he likes to play in the low post and is a great passer.
 
Good god man. Ever wonder why the mavs got owned in the playoffs last year. They never had a post presence. Having a guy in the post gives you solid reliable scoring. Look at the shooting percentages of guys who primarily play in the post. The good ones are always 50+%.

Yao Ming shoots 90% from the foul line and has a great jumpshot. Hell in China he shot 3 pointers. You want him camping out there. Of course not, because he's a beast in the post. Having a post game is so critical when jump shots aren't falling. It gives you guaranteed offense. It creates so many mismatches and forces teams to double.

Shooting a midrange shot every now and then is one thing. Settling for 3s is another. Also, it messes up your rebounding position to shoot lots of jumpers. And considering Hawes isn't exactly Dennis Rodman, it would probably serve him better to hang out in the post.

Let your guards shoot the ball. Have Hawes in the post.

There is a big difference between camping out and taking the occasional 3, and if you are going to shoot a 2 point shot 2 inches inside the 3 point line, why not step back a little! Hey it's an extra point right! There is no doubt that Spencer's main weapon is, and should be, his post play, but the fact that he can step out and knock down a long jumper is not a bad thing!! I don't think anyone that has seen Spencer play would want or expect him to "camp out at the 3 point line" but to not use his skill out there would be misuse. And pulling him out of rebounding position? To what, grab an offensive board or two a game? It in no way inhibits his defensive rebounding, which is our main gripe if you are keeping score at home folks! Wrong side of the floor for a full-blown rebounding argument.

And I wasn't comparing him to Dirk, just disagreeing with the idea that a big man shooting the 3 is some sort of "sin". It's really hard to compare him to Brad Miller. Brad Miller has no post game (same as Dirk), him stepping out to the three point line is basically the only way he can change up his shot selection on a consistent basis. I like the fact that Spencer can one day possibly become a legit inside/outside big man.
 
I think what Kingster was saying, is to let the game dictate how he plays. If the other team has a shot blocking center, it may be advantagous to have Hawes play away from the basket at times to open up the middle for other people. I watched him play in college and he seldom took three pointers. One of his favorite shots is a 15 to 18ft. fall away on the left baseline. He has a hook shot with either hand from either side, and was near unstoppable under the basket in college when he got the ball. I personally think he will remind people more of Valde than Miller as he likes to play in the low post and is a great passer.

And here we have a fact: he doesn't shoot threes. Moot point. Look at all the words wasted over nothing.
 
But isn't that the point? He has excellent low post skills, so don't let him get near the three point line.

If he had excellent three-point shooting skills, you might have an argument, but I don't think he does.

It remains to be seen if he is an excellent 3 point shooter. But there is no doubt that he can hit outside shots on a consistent basis. So use both of those skills! THAT'S the point!
 
Comparing Hawes to Dirk? Based on what, exactly?

Come on... How many times have people complained and whined about Miller stepping back and taking a three? They complained about Webber doing it, too.

We don't need another outside shooter, especially if it pulls a legitimate big man out of position. If he's going to do any kind of rebounding, he needs to be close enough to catch the stupid ball.

I think he should be focusing on what we need. And that's NOT another big who thinks he's a perimeter shooter. Encouraging him at this point in time just seems very premature and not what I was hoping for at all.

You must think that by restricting Hawes's game to the inside we would be making the playoffs this year...:DWhat we need is to build this team for the long term, not sacrifice Hawes's game by restricting it to the inside. We certainly don't need to take a talent who has the flexibility to hit outside and inside shots and tell him to restrict his game to the inside. I want him to be able to play both inside and outside. You would be inhibiting his long-term growth as a player and the team's long term growth if you restricted him just to the inside. (I remember in the draft there was a tall european player (name escapes me) who's "brilliant" coach told him to restrict his game to the inside. The result? He lost confidence in his outside shot. Now he only has an inside game.)

So Hawes plays against Shaq and you want to tell him to take Shaq inside? That's absurd. Or, conversely, he plays against Golden State and Don Nelson wants puts Jackson on him. Obviously, you want him to go inside then. Flexibility on offense is a great advantage. I see no reason to take away that flexibility. Instead, I would emphasis and augment it. And, I would hope that the coach devises an offense to take full advantage of a center who can do both.
 
riiiight.jpg


The next great big man with a significant outside game will be the very first one; pardon me if I don't quite believe that Spence Hawes is that one.
 
So Hawes plays against Shaq and you want to tell him to take Shaq inside? That's absurd.

if you have our center shooting outside against the shaqs of the world, who's helping us on the offensive glass? i'd rather hawes develop into a banger with no outside game and give us a glimmer of hope on the inside, than to develop his versatility. for once it'd be nice to have someone who can do something else well besides score.

i remember years back when dallas moved nowitzki to the 5 spot to draw out opposing centers. that didn't work so well.
 
Most 6'9" guys play the SF position today; hell, some 6'10" guys play SG. I'm actually surprised that Bird played SF, since players his height actually did actually tend to be big men in his day.

But Bird wasn't a big man; he didn't particularly play like a big man, despite his rebounding, and with McHale and Parrish patrolling the paint, it's kind of silly to even intimate that he was.
 
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What we need is to build this team for the long term, not sacrifice Hawes's game by restricting it to the inside. We certainly don't need to take a talent who has the flexibility to hit outside and inside shots and tell him to restrict his game to the inside. I want him to be able to play both inside and outside. You would be inhibiting his long-term growth as a player and the team's long term growth if you restricted him just to the inside.
It's not restricting to the inside, it's focusing. Hawes should be focusing on what he does best and make that his star level skill(s).

Flexibility is nice, but it doesn't trump excellence in a specific area.
 
Let us consider this scenario: Hawes evolves into a great outside shooter (and it appears he either is right now or will be.) In the course of the offense, he is playing the high post much as Vlade, Miller, C-Webb have done in the past and he happens to be 20 feet from the basket. Shaq has been pulled away from the basket and is in no position to rebound. The entire inside has been opened up as a big shot blocker has been pulled away from the basket.

Hawes can now hit Martin, Cisco, or Salmons as they cut into this open space if Hawes is guarded or shoot if his defender sags off him.

What is being said by most of you is that Hawes should NOT shoot because he also is in no position to rebound. Never, ever, ever, should he shoot. Is that correct? In other words It does no good in any fashion for the offense if you have a 7 footer who must be guarded no matter where he stands on the floor.

I am trying to understand this position. If this is the opinion of most people here, that's fine because opinions are opinions.

Each player is unique and brings a unique set of skills to the game. I believe it is the great coaches who know how to squeeze every ounce of talent out of their players and don't force a player with unique skills to give them up just because no one else can do it.

Hawes has a great inside game and that will not go away simply because he also can shoot from a distance. That's my opinion.

___

The above has been written for the sake of this argument as winning an argument is more important than understanding another point of view. I can reluctantly play that game.

Now what do I want from Hawes? I want what I have been hinting at since I first saw him and that is that he develop into a Kevin McHale. Kevin had more inside moves than most people in the history of basketball. Kevin couldn't shoot a three.

I don't want Hawes to hover at the three point line 'cause that would be silly. I want him near the basket. I also want him to have a complete offense because a great inside game can help open up the outside for the team (draws double teams) as well as an outside game can open up the inside for the team (draws the big defender away from the basket).

My opinion - not written in stone - can be altered when new data arrives.

In any case, I'm glad we have a guy that has enough skill to be worth discussing as opposed to the never ending trashing (fully warranted) of our other bigs.
 
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