Thornton for Harden:

[Kingster]

I still think you're reading the argument incorrectly if you think it's an exaggeration. Bricklayer just explained it. It's not that nobody is guarding Harden or that Durant and Westbrook are always double-teamed leaving other players all alone. It's that the defensive attention is primarily on Durant and Westbrook and so on another team where Harden would need to be the #1 wing scorer his effectiveness would likely drop. That's not an exaggerated position. Don't read more into it than is there.

The comment said: DOUBLE AND TRIPLE TEAMING. How plain can it be? And what happens when you double and triple team? You leave one or two guys unguarded. It's not that complicated. If you want want to hedge and qualify and modify then fine. But don't tell me I'm reading it wrong when that's what it says.

 

[uolj]

The comment said: DOUBLE AND TRIPLE TEAMING. How plain can it be? And what happens when you double and triple team? You leave one or two guys unguarded. It's not that complicated. If you want want to hedge and qualify and modify then fine. But don't tell me I'm reading it wrong when that's what it says.

Ok, it says "not only does he not face doubles or traps". First, note that as far as I can tell you added the "triple" teams part. Second, it only says Harden doesn't face double teams and traps. You then inferred that to mean he was left open. It doesn't actually say Harden is left alone. So it's your inference you're arguing against.

And I'm telling you that your inference is wrong. "Harden doesn't face double teams" doesn't automatically mean he has nobody guarding him. It means he is guarded by no more than one person. You can say that the comment implies that Durant and Westbrook are getting double-teamed, but there are 5 defenders on the floor so if those guys are getting double-teamed there are still enough players to also cover Harden. The double-teamer coming off of Harden is not necessarily the case (and I would argue it is usually not), and so you can't assume that's what the original comment must be saying.

More importantly, I think the real point to the comment is that if Harden became the #1 scoring option or just the #1 wing scorer, he would face significantly better defenses, which would lead to less effectiveness. Your inferences about being unguarded ignore this point. So you end up just arguing against a straw man. Do you disagree that Harden would face more difficult defensive play if he was consistently the #1 scoring option on the wing instead of #3? Do you disagree that his effectiveness would likely suffer because of it?

 

[JB_kings]

Don't know about the rest of you. But Harden just got his max contract at 5 years/80 million. I wish him and the Rockets well, but that is Joe Johnson 2.0 in the making right there. Glad the Kings had no part of that one.

 

[Gilles]

Well, Johnson's was something like $120 million over 6 years so $16 million per is better and I don't think it will reach "tradeable for expirings at best" but it might become a problem.

 

[bajaden]

Don't know about the rest of you. But Harden just got his max contract at 5 years/80 million. I wish him and the Rockets well, but that is Joe Johnson 2.0 in the making right there. Glad the Kings had no part of that one.

His isn't as bad as Johnson's, and lets remember, he's a lot younger than Johnson. Look, Houston was left empty handed during freeagency, and with a lot of money left over to spend. They needed someone with some star power that was young enough to build around. Now you can argue whether that should have been Harden or not, but there wern't a lot of options available at this point.

also, despite Hardens new contract, they'll still be around 20 mil under the cap next offseason. So they still have quite a bit of flexability.

 

[Hoovtrain]

37 pts 12 ast. Great debut. Better continue with that contract he inked.

 

[baller13]

If you would not trade marcus thornton for James harden then you should not be allowed to watch basketball. Period!!!!

 

[Big Cuz 15]

If you would not trade marcus thornton for James harden then you should not be allowed to watch basketball. Period!!!!

trading is one thing. resigning is another. that kind of max money needs to go to cousins!

 

[JB_kings]

Not a knock on Harden. I just don't think he is max money type of player. And in reality it wasn't a question of trading Thornton for Harden - it was actually reported that the Thunder wanted Cousins for Harden. I don't think many people would bite on that.

 

[beb0p]

I thought it's a very reasonable deal. I've liked Harden since he was in college and always thought his game was under-appreciated. He's the ultimate clue guy, he makes everyone around him better. Those guys are very hard to find. He may not be the #1 option but he's a great #2 and he's paid a good chunk less than that of Joe Johnson (JJ's contract was 6 yrs for $119 millions) or Rashard Lewis.

I think finding a great #2 is only slightly tinny bit easier than finding a great #1. If the Rockets can swing a deal for real #1, they'd be set. Title contender.

And it's not completely out of the question that they won't land that elusive #1. The Rockets have the cap room and trade assets.

 

[Tetsujin]

I thought it's a very reasonable deal. I've liked Harden since he was in college and always thought his game was under-appreciated. He's the ultimate clue guy, he makes everyone around him better. Those guys are very hard to find. He may not be the #1 option but he's a great #2 and he's paid a good chunk less than that of Joe Johnson (JJ's contract was 6 yrs for $119 millions) or Rashard Lewis.

I think finding a great #2 is only slightly tinny bit easier than finding a great #1. If the Rockets can swing a deal for real #1, they'd be set. Title contender.

And it's not completely out of the question that they won't land that elusive #1. The Rockets have the cap room and trade assets.

But you need to factor in that those contracts are from the old CBA.

 

[JB_kings]

I thought it's a very reasonable deal. I've liked Harden since he was in college and always thought his game was under-appreciated. He's the ultimate clue guy, he makes everyone around him better. Those guys are very hard to find. He may not be the #1 option but he's a great #2 and he's paid a good chunk less than that of Joe Johnson (JJ's contract was 6 yrs for $119 millions) or Rashard Lewis.

I think finding a great #2 is only slightly tinny bit easier than finding a great #1. If the Rockets can swing a deal for real #1, they'd be set. Title contender.

And it's not completely out of the question that they won't land that elusive #1. The Rockets have the cap room and trade assets.

I would rather spend that money on a #1 guy and then see about the #2. I think Cousins is that #1 guy and he's going to get that max. This whole thread started off wondering about getting Harden for the Kings. If the original post had us trading Cousins for Harden, it would have been an entirely different conversation. The reality was the player that the Thunder wanted was Cousins. I think Petrie hung up on that one.

 

[beb0p]

But you need to factor in that those contracts are from the old CBA.

Yes, and that's also my point - the new CBA has made Harden's contract a whole lot more reasonable now. Plus, going forward, this is how much one expects to pay for a guy as good as Harden under the new CBA. So it's a reasonable, market rate contract.

I would rather spend that money on a #1 guy and then see about the #2. I think Cousins is that #1 guy and he's going to get that max. This whole thread started off wondering about getting Harden for the Kings. If the original post had us trading Cousins for Harden, it would have been an entirely different conversation. The reality was the player that the Thunder wanted was Cousins. I think Petrie hung up on that one.

The scary thing is that the Rockets are still far enough under the cap to offer another big contract - Harden's contract doesn't kill their chances at a #1. To me, guys like Salmons and Outlaw are overpaid; Harden isn't overpaid - he's worth every penny. I'd much rather have one Harden than the combined trio of Salmons/Outlaw/Garcia; and Salmons/Outlaw/Garcia combined make more than Harden and combined they contribute 20% (if that) of Harden's production.

To me, the Kings are the suckers for having these overpaid and under produced guys on the team. I wish they think more like the Rockets - pay real money for real talent, instead of filling the team with average players with average salaries.

 

[Bricklayer]

Yes, and that's also my point - the new CBA has made Harden's contract a whole lot more reasonable now. Plus, going forward, this is how much one expects to pay for a guy as good as Harden under the new CBA. So it's a reasonable, market rate contract.




The scary thing is that the Rockets are still far enough under the cap to offer another big contract - Harden's contract doesn't kill their chances at a #1. To me, guys like Salmons and Outlaw are overpaid; Harden isn't overpaid - he's worth every penny. I'd much rather have one Harden than the combined trio of Salmons/Outlaw/Garcia; and Salmons/Outlaw/Garcia combined make more than Harden and combined they contribute 20% (if that) of Harden's production.

To me, the Kings are the suckers for having these overpaid and under produced guys on the team. I wish they think more like the Rockets - pay real money for real talent, instead of filling the team with average players with average salaries.

Oh, remember all the guys the Rockets had on their rosters the past few seasons? This pay real money for real talent thing is very new. Like a few months old. And really this offseaosn has just been them paying their young guys, sometime spaying them a LOT more than they have proven, a year or two before us. Our time is coming.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

...paying their young guys, sometime spaying them...

Point of advice to Rockets players: If the front office makes you an appointment with the team veterinarian, just run away!

 

[Spike]

Point of advice to Rockets players: If the front office makes you an appointment with the team veterinarian, just run away!

And I thought we had problems with the FO/Coaching staff neutering the talents of our team...

 

[JB_kings]

Yes, and that's also my point - the new CBA has made Harden's contract a whole lot more reasonable now. Plus, going forward, this is how much one expects to pay for a guy as good as Harden under the new CBA. So it's a reasonable, market rate contract.




The scary thing is that the Rockets are still far enough under the cap to offer another big contract - Harden's contract doesn't kill their chances at a #1. To me, guys like Salmons and Outlaw are overpaid; Harden isn't overpaid - he's worth every penny. I'd much rather have one Harden than the combined trio of Salmons/Outlaw/Garcia; and Salmons/Outlaw/Garcia combined make more than Harden and combined they contribute 20% (if that) of Harden's production.

To me, the Kings are the suckers for having these overpaid and under produced guys on the team. I wish they think more like the Rockets - pay real money for real talent, instead of filling the team with average players with average salaries.

The Rockets have been trying to lock up that #1 player with Howard haven't they? I don't think money has been their issue so far. And the way this has been playing out in recent years, it's not going to work. Most of the big name free agents either get locked up with their team or go exactly where they want to be... LA, NY.