Thinking we can entice Rondo may be moot

[andjel]

Blake and CP3 didn't arrive the same year. Griffin was actually drafted two years before Paul arrived but of course he lost a year due to injury. The next year he was the ROY and leading scorer and rebounder (22.5 ppg, 12 rpg) while playing all 82 games. That team had Griffin, it had Jordan, and it had Bledsoe. The biggest change was adding Chris Paul the next year. And Redick has been a nice piece but he's only been on the team for the past three seasons. They were already winning 50+ games before his addition.

The very season the Clippers put together their core (star big in Griffin, star PG in Paul and high level role player big in Jordan) they immediately started winning. The rest of the roster has shifted quite a bit over the last few seasons but those three key players catapulted the team into being a playoff squad and contender.

My point being that if Rondo/WCS/Cousins were the same type of core the Kings wouldn't be tanking these last few games to keep yet another top 10 pick. They didn't need other pieces to make it work. So I'm just not convinced the Kings have a core that can be similarly successful, even with some added role players. But if they are going to move forward with Rondo I certainly hope Rudy Gay is traded. SOMETHING has to change with this often lackluster starting 5 and maybe the Kings will see the same boost that Toronto got when they shipped out a ball dominant Rudy whose efficiency plummets when tasked with being the main scorer.



This season, sure. But this is also Rondo's best rebounding season. For their careers Rondo only averages 0.4 more rebounds per game than Paul. And even per 36 the difference is less than a rebound per game.



I'd love to be that optimistic. I really would. But I came into this season just hoping the Kings could claw their way into the 7th or 8th spot over an aging Dallas team, a blown up Portland team, a Houston squad in disarray and a Jazz team that was dealt a blow losing their best on ball defender and starting PG and who missed the playoffs last year. Instead this team was pretty awful, at times just getting run off the floor by hungrier teams like that terrible game in Mexico against the Celtics.

Brick thinks with a new coach Rondo will stop being an awful defender and return somewhere near his championship days in Boston on that end of the floor. You think the Kings are a SG, a new coach and a tweak or two away from being a 50+ win team. I just don't see it. Maybe that's because every time I do get my hopes up that the Kings are going to turn a corner they fall flat and disappoint me yet again. We'll see I guess.

Fully understand where you are coming from, I keep my pessimistic side for real important things I can influence to reduce disappointments.
I just choose to be optimistic in these cases for a healthy balance

 

[kingsboi]

I think it does mean one or the other. Both have 1 year remaining on their contract. Schroeder is on his rookie contract right now.

Yes the Hawks do have Schroeder's RFA rights, but rumors are that if he doesn't start, he wants out. If they extend Schroeder, Teague will likely leave for a starting job. If they extend Teague, and match Schroeder, Schroeder will be disgruntled.

You might say, "soooo, he doesn't have a say". Well, look at how the entire Goran Dragic scenario turned out. Constant locker-room problems that forced the Suns to trade both Dragic and IT.

1year rental of Teague could be interesting.

Who would you rather have if you're the Hawks? 22yearold PG vs. 27yearold PG

Depends what your goal as a team is. Teague is in his prime right now so he will help you win right now and that's what he has been helping Atlanta do since being drafted. Unless Atlanta feels they can't go anywhere with this roster, and they can't....then they may let Horford walk or they may not, it will be very telling what direction they want to head in.

 

[chief bromden]

If the Kings plan to end games with Willie at all, they shouldn't resign Rondo. Two minus outside shooters makes it easy on defenses, especially at the end of games. I've admired Rondo's ability to hit the 3 this year, but unless he keeps improving his shot and becomes more aggressive with it late in games, I'd let him walk and wish him well.

 

[itzcoatl]

If the Kings plan to end games with Willie at all, they shouldn't resign Rondo. Two minus outside shooters makes it easy on defenses, especially at the end of games. I've admired Rondo's ability to hit the 3 this year, but unless he keeps improving his shot and becomes more aggressive with it late in games, I'd let him walk and wish him well.

WCS is showing improving shot and good touch with his jumper. I think some more experience would help. I don't think WCS will be the offensive liability you're assuming he will be.

 

[hrdboild]

If the Kings plan to end games with Willie at all, they shouldn't resign Rondo. Two minus outside shooters makes it easy on defenses, especially at the end of games. I've admired Rondo's ability to hit the 3 this year, but unless he keeps improving his shot and becomes more aggressive with it late in games, I'd let him walk and wish him well.

This kind of comment is becoming almost comical for me at this point in the season. Rondo has made 62 out of 170 three pointers for an average of 36.5% this season. Only 10 starting PGs have been better. And at 45.4% from the field only 5 starting PGs are better overall at converting shot opportunities into points. Closing out games shouldn't be reduced to three point shooting or even the ability to hit open jump shots. What you want to do in the fourth quarter is force the tempo of the game to play to your strengths. You do that by stopping the other team from scoring and controlling the shot clock to maximize your own possessions. We can certainly do that with Rondo and Cauley-Stein on the floor at the same time. You could instead point to Rondo's poor free throw percentage as a potential end-game problem, particularly in the playoffs when opposing coaches will take any advantage they can get to win a close game. That's a fair criticism, though not reason enough to dismiss him outright.

To go one step further though, I see two big problems for this team right now: we're lacking aggressive perimeter defenders and a reliable wing scorer. Rudy Gay at his best was at least a reliable scoring threat but he hasn't been looking to score as much this season or when he does try to force the issue it more often results in a turnover or a missed shot. And that makes the lackadaisical defense harder to accept. Ben has some good qualities as a defender but he's still not strong enough and gets pushed off-balance too often or baited into fouls. Collison has been our only reliable perimeter scoring threat in the fourth quarter this season but keeping him on the floor forces us into unfavorable defensive matchups. We're giving up just as many points as we're getting back having him play out 4th quarters at SG all the time.

To solve these issues I think the key pieces we need to look for in the off-season are (1) a defensive stopper at SG who can guard 3 positions (2) a high-level 3 and D wing at SF who can convert shot opportunities efficiently and be a jack of all trades on defense and (3) An aggressive perimeter scoring threat off the bench (this could potentially be Seth Curry). Then you have options down the stretch. If you need another floor spacer you can bring in Omri at PF which we've done at times this season. If the game is close and getting stops is more important, than you stick with Cauley-Stein next to Cousins. You have your defensive stopper at SG who can guard the other team's biggest scoring threat if they're a PG, SG, or some SFs or you can bring in your scoring guard to push the pace and put points on the board quickly. And your 3-and-D SF is out there mainly as a catch and shoot threat but does most of their work on defense working with Cauley-Stein and Cousins to hold down the middle of the court and allow the guards to stay home on outside shooters.

In other words, I'm far more worried about making the game difficult for the other team's offense than I am about the other team's defense. The Rondo/Cousins two-man game is always going to be a problem for other teams to stop -- we just have to keep the game close enough to where we don't need a three point shooting barrage to claw back into it. And we do that by focusing on fielding the best defensive lineup we can and pressuring the other team to make mistakes. And actually -- in the anti George Karl basketball world that I live in -- I think you can apply a lot of pressure on the other team's defense just by making it hard enough for them to score that every mistake they make defensively is magnified.

 

[206Fan]

This kind of comment is becoming almost comical for me at this point in the season. Rondo has made 62 out of 170 three pointers for an average of 36.5% this season. Only 10 starting PGs have been better. And at 45.4% from the field only 5 starting PGs are better overall at converting shot opportunities into points. Closing out games shouldn't be reduced to three point shooting or even the ability to hit open jump shots. What you want to do in the fourth quarter is force the tempo of the game to play to your strengths. You do that by stopping the other team from scoring and controlling the shot clock to maximize your own possessions. We can certainly do that with Rondo and Cauley-Stein on the floor at the same time. You could instead point to Rondo's poor free throw percentage as a potential end-game problem, particularly in the playoffs when opposing coaches will take any advantage they can get to win a close game. That's a fair criticism, though not reason enough to dismiss him outright.

To go one step further though, I see two big problems for this team right now: we're lacking aggressive perimeter defenders and a reliable wing scorer. Rudy Gay at his best was at least a reliable scoring threat but he hasn't been looking to score as much this season or when he does try to force the issue it more often results in a turnover or a missed shot. And that makes the lackadaisical defense harder to accept. Ben has some good qualities as a defender but he's still not strong enough and gets pushed off-balance too often or baited into fouls. Collison has been our only reliable perimeter scoring threat in the fourth quarter this season but keeping him on the floor forces us into unfavorable defensive matchups. We're giving up just as many points as we're getting back having him play out 4th quarters at SG all the time.

To solve these issues I think the key pieces we need to look for in the off-season are (1) a defensive stopper at SG who can guard 3 positions (2) a high-level 3 and D wing at SF who can convert shot opportunities efficiently and be a jack of all trades on defense and (3) An aggressive perimeter scoring threat off the bench (this could potentially be Seth Curry). Then you have options down the stretch. If you need another floor spacer you can bring in Omri at PF which we've done at times this season. If the game is close and getting stops is more important, than you stick with Cauley-Stein next to Cousins. You have your defensive stopper at SG who can guard the other team's biggest scoring threat if they're a PG, SG, or some SFs or you can bring in your scoring guard to push the pace and put points on the board quickly. And your 3-and-D SF is out there mainly as a catch and shoot threat but does most of their work on defense working with Cauley-Stein and Cousins to hold down the middle of the court and allow the guards to stay home on outside shooters.

In other words, I'm far more worried about making the game difficult for the other team's offense than I am about the other team's defense. The Rondo/Cousins two-man game is always going to be a problem for other teams to stop -- we just have to keep the game close enough to where we don't need a three point shooting barrage to claw back into it. And we do that by focusing on fielding the best defensive lineup we can and pressuring the other team to make mistakes. And actually -- in the anti George Karl basketball world that I live in -- I think you can apply a lot of pressure on the other team's defense just by making it hard enough for them to score that every mistake they make defensively is magnified.

You have to look at how Rondo gets his 3s. It's from defenders sagging, and doubling the post/Cousins. Someone on Reddit showed one of his biggest problems on offense https://www.reddit.com/r/kings/comments/4dvk1c/not_sure_if_its_real_insight_but_here_are_some/


Defenders don't even bother to guard Rondo off the ball at the 3pt line A LOT of the times. I don't have anything to back this up, except my eyeballs.

Same eyeballs that tell me that Rondo is a terrible defender who just gambles in the passing lane instead of actually playing real man-man defense or recovering. This is why his steals are extremely high. Rondo is our biggest culprit in perimeter defense, which is why I agree with you on us needing more perimeter defenders. Rudy Gay is an average at best defender, and Ben/Curry is a lot better than Rondo currently is. This leads to me thinking we need to replace Rondo's defense.

I compare Rondo's defense to being a FS in football, when he should be the CB. The CB's job is to cover the WR AND intercept balls. The FS' job is to roam around until he can make an interception. (1st grade explanation)
Rondo needs to play like a CB where he has to both A) stay in front of his man and B) get steals. Instead, Rondo plays more like a FS where he decides he should only A) gamble for the steal.

I just don't know if you can successfully go forward with a core of Rondo-WCS-Cuz. WCS-Cuz is already a crowded front court. Rondo gets most of his baskets in the paint.
So if you're going to replace our SG with a defensive-type player, and our SF with a 3&D guy, it becomes extremely questionable if the team would even have a real #3 option in the starting lineup.

It just seems a lot easier if we decided to move away from Rondo, and start with a PG who can actually shoot and defend. Granted, there aren't a lot of them in FA, but *gulps* someone like Jeremy Lin would be a better alternative.

 

[Showtime]

Better choice is to keep DC and Curry and use that 15 mil on upgrading the 2 spot and bench.

 

[Bosnian Diehard]

The more I see Curry play the less I velieve we need Rondo.

 

[upinsmoke]

Rondo can kick rocks.

 

[randymoss1881]

Better choice is to keep DC and Curry and use that 15 mil on upgrading the 2 spot and bench.

It will be more like 21 mill but either way Rondo needs to leave and I don't care if Cousins throws a hissy fit after.

Take the 21mill give 18mill to Barnes and offer Gay/Ben in a sign and trade to Washington for Beal.

Collison/curry
Beal/Marco
Barnes/Casspi
WCS/acy
DMC/KK

 

[upinsmoke]

It will be more like 21 mill but either way Rondo needs to leave and I don't care if Cousins throws a hissy fit after.

Take the 21mill give 18mill to Barnes and offer Gay/Ben in a sign and trade to Washington for Beal.

Collison/curry
Beal/Marco
Barnes/Casspi
WCS/acy
DMC/KK

Beals injury history makes me not make that move. I would move Rudy to the backup 4 and use the cap space and pick to get a 2 and 3

 

[hrdboild]

You have to look at how Rondo gets his 3s. It's from defenders sagging, and doubling the post/Cousins. Someone on Reddit showed one of his biggest problems on offense https://www.reddit.com/r/kings/comments/4dvk1c/not_sure_if_its_real_insight_but_here_are_some/


Defenders don't even bother to guard Rondo off the ball at the 3pt line A LOT of the times. I don't have anything to back this up, except my eyeballs.

Same eyeballs that tell me that Rondo is a terrible defender who just gambles in the passing lane instead of actually playing real man-man defense or recovering. This is why his steals are extremely high. Rondo is our biggest culprit in perimeter defense, which is why I agree with you on us needing more perimeter defenders. Rudy Gay is an average at best defender, and Ben/Curry is a lot better than Rondo currently is. This leads to me thinking we need to replace Rondo's defense.

I compare Rondo's defense to being a FS in football, when he should be the CB. The CB's job is to cover the WR AND intercept balls. The FS' job is to roam around until he can make an interception. (1st grade explanation)
Rondo needs to play like a CB where he has to both A) stay in front of his man and B) get steals. Instead, Rondo plays more like a FS where he decides he should only A) gamble for the steal.

I just don't know if you can successfully go forward with a core of Rondo-WCS-Cuz. WCS-Cuz is already a crowded front court. Rondo gets most of his baskets in the paint.
So if you're going to replace our SG with a defensive-type player, and our SF with a 3&D guy, it becomes extremely questionable if the team would even have a real #3 option in the starting lineup.

It just seems a lot easier if we decided to move away from Rondo, and start with a PG who can actually shoot and defend. Granted, there aren't a lot of them in FA, but *gulps* someone like Jeremy Lin would be a better alternative.

That reddit post is nonsense. They show 4 plays from one game and that's supposed to count as sufficient evidence that Rondo is killing our offense? That game was November 15th. Obviously nobody on Toronto respected Rondo's jumper 5 months ago but they have to now, especially in the corners where he shot 43% this season. And that was also a game that we won 107-101 against the second best team in the Eastern Conference this year. Anyone who is scouting Rondo for next season has to acknowledge that leaving him wide open in the corners is probably a bad idea. He shot a better percentage from three this season than Mike Conley, Isaiah Thomas, Reggie Jackson, John Wall, Jordan Clarkson and D'Angelo Russell, Deron Williams, Jrue Holiday, Goran Dragic, Kyrie Irving, Russell Westbrook, Brandon Knight, Jeremy Lin... the list goes on. Are all of them off the table too if we want to put Cauley-Stein in the starting lineup?

If you only want to look at shooting stats for tightly contested jumpers, a whole lot of players are going to look terrible. Usually taking and making open shots is called smart shot selection. I don't know when floor spacing supposedly became the number one priority for every player on the floor, but I'm old school enough to think other skills are valuable as well and there are maybe 5 players in the league who don't have a significant weakness somewhere in their game. Maybe we're not a top 5 offense without a volume shooter at starting PG, but then again maybe we could be. We were this year. And if our defense gets a lot better we don't need to be.

Speaking of which you spend the bulk of your post talking about defense which, okay, fair enough. All Rondo discussions eventually circle back to there. "He can't shoot" and "he's hunting assists at the expense of the team" are both just stepping stones on the path to "he's clearly the worst defender on the team" and all three of them are equally lazy and inaccurate arguments. I'll grant you that Rondo's defense has been poor much of the season (not worst on the team poor, but I digress...). My point all along has been that you don't expect your starting PG to be a defensive stopper anyway. And Rondo is getting us extra possessions with his steals and rebounds. Your analogy about the defensive secondary in football is an apt one but I'm not sure you applied it correctly. Let me take a crack at it....

The reason you have different roles in your secondary is because the other team can run the ball or pass it, fair enough? So you have your cornerbacks to guard against the long ball, you have your strong safety to help stop the run or short yardage pass, and then you have your free safety to read the quarterback and get themselves in position to make a play on the ball. I'm a relative newby when it comes to football so I may be missing something important. But the way I see it, you can't very will defend a play with just speedy cornerbacks or hard-hitting safeties, you need both. Similarly, a smart basketball coach can design a defense to take advantage of multiple skillsets. Cousins is tough to move in the post but can't really get off the ground to defend shots in the air. Cauley-Stein is long armed and quick on his feet but not strong enough to hold position in the post. On the perimeter you've got guys who excel at face-guarding the ball, guys who excel at denying passes to their man, and guys who excel at anticipating passes and getting in position to deny them or intercept them. You can't very well do all of them at once so it's probably in your best interest if you have a variety of different skillsets and a gameplan that allows all of them to fill a role. You wouldn't want all of your defenders to be identical because that would leave without key skill areas.

So looking at next season, I'm only worried about Rondo's defense to the extent he shows a tendency to coast or opt out of defensive plays when he feels like it. Whoever the coach is next season they need to nip that in the bud real quick. And I don't think it would be that hard -- Rondo plays with a lot of pride. He's been selected to 4 all-defense teams in the past. Rub his nose in it until he gets pissed off and shows you he can play defense when he wants to. And then tell him he needs to play like that every game. Just simply stating the D word and expecting it to happen on it's own is not enough. But as for everything else, I'm not worried about his tendency to sit off the ball and play passing lanes or leave his man to crash the boards because a capable defensive unit would turn those into strengths not weaknesses.

For those other two spots in the lineup, I want the defensive stopper at SG not SF because a great defensive 2 guard can also guard most of the PGs and SFs in the league. Also, the SF role has changed a lot in the last 10 years. It's probably the toughest spot to fill in a starting lineup. They have to be able to slide down to the 4 and guard shooting bigs and they have to be able to switch onto speedy wing players off pick and roll action. And then you've got a number of 6-8, 6-9, 6-10 scoring specialists who will back you down and shoot over you if you can't body them up and hold position. It calls for a completely different defensive skillset and I don't think you want a stopper so much as you want a high-energy player who's willing to work hard to at least contest shots and fight for rebounds in the paint. Also, since you have to think about offense, I'd rather my best shooter start at SF than SG because then the other team can't guard them with a PG and you pull at least one wing away from the basket. Get me those 2 players, and I'll build an intimidating defense with Rondo there at the head of it.

 

[hrdboild]

It will be more like 21 mill but either way Rondo needs to leave and I don't care if Cousins throws a hissy fit after.

Take the 21mill give 18mill to Barnes and offer Gay/Ben in a sign and trade to Washington for Beal.

Collison/curry
Beal/Marco
Barnes/Casspi
WCS/acy
DMC/KK

Washington is not giving up on Bradley Beal. He's as important to their team as John Wall is. Harrison Barnes I think you can get though if you beat whatever price point GS has in mind because he's no better than 6th in the pecking order after Curry, Thompson, Green, Bogut and Igoudala.

The more I see Curry play the less I velieve we need Rondo.

Oh I see exactly the opposite. Curry is a capable scorer and a smart/opportunistic passer, but he's not a playmaker. The same goes for Collison for that matter. Both of them look great when they come into the game and hit shots, but it's no coincidence that both Cousins and Cauley-Stein have their best games with Rondo in the starting lineup. The difference with Rondo is that he comes into the game looking to create shots for everyone else and he has the necessary skill and know-how to get them the ball in great position to score easy baskets. That's why he's one of the better (only?) pure PGs in the league right now and why it's not easy for me to give up on him without finding a comparable long-term replacement.

 

[ParniValjak]

People need to understand that the root of this season's failure is the senile old coach whose days are numbered. Give this exact roster a good, solid coach and we wouldn't have just played the last game at ARCO. This team with any of Thibs, Brooks, McHale or even Malone is a play off team this year.

People will be signing to a very different tune this time next year.

 

[Section 101]

Washington is not giving up on Bradley Beal. He's as important to their team as John Wall is. Harrison Barnes I think you can get though if you beat whatever price point GS has in mind because he's no better than 6th in the pecking order after Curry, Thompson, Green, Bogut and Igoudala.

Oh I see exactly the opposite. Curry is a capable scorer and a smart/opportunistic passer, but he's not a playmaker. The same goes for Collison for that matter. Both of them look great when they come into the game and hit shots, but it's no coincidence that both Cousins and Cauley-Stein have their best games with Rondo in the starting lineup. The difference with Rondo is that he comes into the game looking to create shots for everyone else and he has the necessary skill and know-how to get them the ball in great position to score easy baskets. That's why he's one of the better (only?) pure PGs in the league right now and why it's not easy for me to give up on him without finding a comparable long-term replacement.

Yep. One thing we learned is Collison needs a structured offense. He's great coming off the bench as a scorer first, but making plays for others isn't his strength and for post players his post feeds are well below average.

 

[Showtime]

Oh I see exactly the opposite. Curry is a capable scorer and a smart/opportunistic passer, but he's not a playmaker. The same goes for Collison for that matter. Both of them look great when they come into the game and hit shots, but it's no coincidence that both Cousins and Cauley-Stein have their best games with Rondo in the starting lineup. The difference with Rondo is that he comes into the game looking to create shots for everyone else and he has the necessary skill and know-how to get them the ball in great position to score easy baskets. That's why he's one of the better (only?) pure PGs in the league right now and why it's not easy for me to give up on him without finding a comparable long-term replacement.

This issue at hand, IMO, is that the term "playmaker" in your post should be substituted with "passer". A playmaker can create, develop openings, and exploit opportunities for himself AND other players. You can have a guy like Westbrook and he's still a playmaker even if he's looking to score a lot of the time. In that regard, this team doesn't need a guy like Rondo unless you run this horrible dribble-drive offense that depends on somebody creating off the pick and roll and looking to pass 90% of the time. In a slower-paced system, running the offense through the high-post with DMC, they need shooters/scorers. This is why the Kings with Webber had guys like Bibby and Jackson instead of the John Stockton archetype; they didn't need that because their bigs moved the ball around. Collison and Curry are not that bad as passers anyway. Collison put up 27/8 last night against one of the top backcourts in the game. He is inconsistent, which has always been his problem, but it isn't like this team won't have anybody if Rondo walks. Additionally, in order for Rondo to use his skills to distribute, he needs the ball in his hands, so it is almost a catch-22 at times because other guys don't get as involved in getting their offense going because they are watching Rondo and waiting for him to make a play for them, whereas we have seen this team move the ball around very well without him in several games.

Running the offense through DMC, using the combo guard skills of Curry, DC, another free-agent perhaps in the backcourt, and upgrading the bench with somebody like Ryan Anderson, and you can have a very potent team on both ends of the court with the right coaching style.

 

[gunks]

People need to understand that the root of this season's failure is the senile old coach whose days are numbered. Give this exact roster a good, solid coach and we wouldn't have just played the last game at ARCO. This team with any of Thibs, Brooks, McHale or even Malone is a play off team this year.

People will be signing to a very different tune this time next year.

Indeed. Besides SG, our current roster isn't nearly as bad as the record would indicate. Future HOFer or not, Karl is an awful coach. Just doesn't have it anymore. ...

.... but congrats on bilking Vivek, Karl!

 

[Showtime]

Indeed. Besides SG, our current roster isn't nearly as bad as the record would indicate. Future HOFer or not, Karl is an awful coach. Just doesn't have it anymore. ...

.... but congrats on bilking Vivek, Karl!

I agree that Karl has mismanaged this team from the start, but this is a league where talent impacts success moreso than perhaps any other sport. We've seen a singular force will teams that had no business being as successful as they were. This team had the talent to win despite coaching if their effort and attitudes were better.

 

[jcwkings]

You have to build your entire team around Rondo, and he isnt good enough and too old for that at this point. Keep Darren, Seth, see if you can draft a guy like Dunn to develop behind Darren. Sign a backup PG. Maybe take a shot on a young guy like Frazier of New Orleans. If you are gonna build around Cousins he should be one of your main facilitators anyways.

 

[Section 101]

This issue at hand, IMO, is that the term "playmaker" in your post should be substituted with "passer". A playmaker can create, develop openings, and exploit opportunities for himself AND other players. You can have a guy like Westbrook and he's still a playmaker even if he's looking to score a lot of the time. In that regard, this team doesn't need a guy like Rondo unless you run this horrible dribble-drive offense that depends on somebody creating off the pick and roll and looking to pass 90% of the time. In a slower-paced system, running the offense through the high-post with DMC, they need shooters/scorers. This is why the Kings with Webber had guys like Bibby and Jackson instead of the John Stockton archetype; they didn't need that because their bigs moved the ball around. Collison and Curry are not that bad as passers anyway. Collison put up 27/8 last night against one of the top backcourts in the game. He is inconsistent, which has always been his problem, but it isn't like this team won't have anybody if Rondo walks. Additionally, in order for Rondo to use his skills to distribute, he needs the ball in his hands, so it is almost a catch-22 at times because other guys don't get as involved in getting their offense going because they are watching Rondo and waiting for him to make a play for them, whereas we have seen this team move the ball around very well without him in several games.

Running the offense through DMC, using the combo guard skills of Curry, DC, another free-agent perhaps in the backcourt, and upgrading the bench with somebody like Ryan Anderson, and you can have a very potent team on both ends of the court with the right coaching style.

In order to run the offense through DMC you first need to get him the ball. DC has problems getting him the ball in the post where Rondo excels. The other problem is nobody else is very good at it either.

 

[Bricklayer]

I agree that Karl has mismanaged this team from the start, but this is a league where talent impacts success moreso than perhaps any other sport. We've seen a singular force will teams that had no business being as successful as they were. This team had the talent to win despite coaching if their effort and attitudes were better.

Yes, but we've also seen very talented teams stuck in mud because they had the wrong coach who could not reach them.

You're looking for a meeting of the minds between coach and players, and ESPECIALLY between coach and star(s). You get that alliance, and then everybody else knows what to do and falls in place.

 

[bajaden]

Yes, but we've also seen very talented teams stuck in mud because they had the wrong coach who could not reach them.

You're looking for a meeting of the minds between coach and players, and ESPECIALLY between coach and star(s). You get that alliance, and then everybody else knows what to do and falls in place.

Don't disagree. The question is, who exactly is that! Does anyone have any guarantee's? I'm all up for a guarantee.

 

[Flopi]

People need to understand that the root of this season's failure is the senile old coach whose days are numbered. Give this exact roster a good, solid coach and we wouldn't have just played the last game at ARCO. This team with any of Thibs, Brooks, McHale or even Malone is a play off team this year.

People will be signing to a very different tune this time next year.

100% agree.
No doubt in my mind that, with a good coach, this roster would make the playoff.
But a biggest question is can this roster, especially the Rondo/Gay/DMC core, be more than a 1st/2nd round playoff team ?

 

[KingMilz]

100% agree.
No doubt in my mind that, with a good coach, this roster would make the playoff.
But a biggest question is can this roster, especially the Rondo/Gay/DMC core, be more than a 1st/2nd round playoff team ?

You can't say no doubt there is always doubt has to be when you consider in the last 3-4 years the core of Rudy/Rondo/Cousins has done nothing in terms of winning separate or together.

 

[hrdboild]

This issue at hand, IMO, is that the term "playmaker" in your post should be substituted with "passer". A playmaker can create, develop openings, and exploit opportunities for himself AND other players. You can have a guy like Westbrook and he's still a playmaker even if he's looking to score a lot of the time. In that regard, this team doesn't need a guy like Rondo unless you run this horrible dribble-drive offense that depends on somebody creating off the pick and roll and looking to pass 90% of the time. In a slower-paced system, running the offense through the high-post with DMC, they need shooters/scorers. This is why the Kings with Webber had guys like Bibby and Jackson instead of the John Stockton archetype; they didn't need that because their bigs moved the ball around. Collison and Curry are not that bad as passers anyway. Collison put up 27/8 last night against one of the top backcourts in the game. He is inconsistent, which has always been his problem, but it isn't like this team won't have anybody if Rondo walks. Additionally, in order for Rondo to use his skills to distribute, he needs the ball in his hands, so it is almost a catch-22 at times because other guys don't get as involved in getting their offense going because they are watching Rondo and waiting for him to make a play for them, whereas we have seen this team move the ball around very well without him in several games.

Running the offense through DMC, using the combo guard skills of Curry, DC, another free-agent perhaps in the backcourt, and upgrading the bench with somebody like Ryan Anderson, and you can have a very potent team on both ends of the court with the right coaching style.

I think we just use the terms differently. Someone who is talented at putting the ball in the basket but needs screens and timely passing to get their shot off I would call a "shooter" or potentially a "slasher" if they score mostly on layups or floaters instead of jumpers. If that same player can pull-up off the dribble or has a split-second release or otherwise is able to maneuver themselves in position to create good high-percentage shots without being assisted than they're a "scorer". The most talented scorers in the league are superstar players who can put up 20+ points per game every night regardless of who their teammates are and what the other team tries to do defensively. I reserve the term "playmaker" for players who are talented at setting up other players with good quality shots. Anybody can be a passer, that's just about a willingness to move the ball. And if you have four willing passers on the court who can all shoot than yeah, maybe you don't need a playmaker at that point you just keep moving the ball until someone is open. But even teams that rely on motion principles in their offense usually have somebody who can create easy shots in the halfcourt. You brought up Webber, Bibby, and Bobby Jackson but Doug Christie and Vlade Divac were the best playmakers on that team and they created all kinds of backdoor layups with patience, vision, and precision bounce passing. I don't recall people complaining that Vlade held the ball too much and a lot of his assisted baskets looked very similar to Rondo's.

I'm fine with Curry or Collison as the backup PG because they both have attributes which allow them to put pressure on the defense. Collison is extremely hard to stop in the open court with his speed and he's a master at getting to his spot with the defender off-balance and then pulling up for the midrange jumper. Curry doesn't have the overwhelming speed but he has range on his jumper and you can't give him space or he'll shoot over you and that allows him to put pressure on the defense in other ways. But as for running the offense for a full game, we run into problems with both of them in that role because they struggle to get all the way to the basket in the halfcourt. As Section 101 already said, we saw Collison struggle with the post entry pass last season when he was the primary PG. For all of Rondo's perceived weaknesses, the one thing he does better than anyone else on the team is get Cousins the ball in position to score. That takes the pressure off of Cousins to always have to create with his back to the basket. The player who's suffered the most this year with the more PG dominant offense is probably Rudy Gay because he was our main ball handler on the perimeter last year and this year he wasn't given much of a chance to find a rhythm as a scorer. But you could point to Collison or Belinelli as players that were taking the ball out of his hands this season as much as Rondo. I think George Karl's love of 3 and 4 guard lineups is what marginalized Rudy Gay this season, there's no reason why he couldn't still be a strong second option, particularly if we retain a low usage PG like Rondo who handles the ball a lot but prefers to finish off possessions with a pass instead of a shot. I don't know that I want Rudy back unless he commits himself to playing defense more than he ever has in his career, but there's no reason why it couldn't work offensively.

 

[funkykingston]

I think we just use the terms differently. Someone who is talented at putting the ball in the basket but needs screens and timely passing to get their shot off I would call a "shooter" or potentially a "slasher" if they score mostly on layups or floaters instead of jumpers. If that same player can pull-up off the dribble or has a split-second release or otherwise is able to maneuver themselves in position to create good high-percentage shots without being assisted than they're a "scorer". The most talented scorers in the league are superstar players who can put up 20+ points per game every night regardless of who their teammates are and what the other team tries to do defensively. I reserve the term "playmaker" for players who are talented at setting up other players with good quality shots. Anybody can be a passer, that's just about a willingness to move the ball. And if you have four willing passers on the court who can all shoot than yeah, maybe you don't need a playmaker at that point you just keep moving the ball until someone is open. But even teams that rely on motion principles in their offense usually have somebody who can create easy shots in the halfcourt. You brought up Webber, Bibby, and Bobby Jackson but Doug Christie and Vlade Divac were the best playmakers on that team and they created all kinds of backdoor layups with patience, vision, and precision bounce passing. I don't recall people complaining that Vlade held the ball too much and a lot of his assisted baskets looked very similar to Rondo's.

I'm fine with Curry or Collison as the backup PG because they both have attributes which allow them to put pressure on the defense. Collison is extremely hard to stop in the open court with his speed and he's a master at getting to his spot with the defender off-balance and then pulling up for the midrange jumper. Curry doesn't have the overwhelming speed but he has range on his jumper and you can't give him space or he'll shoot over you and that allows him to put pressure on the defense in other ways. But as for running the offense for a full game, we run into problems with both of them in that role because they struggle to get all the way to the basket in the halfcourt. As Section 101 already said, we saw Collison struggle with the post entry pass last season when he was the primary PG. For all of Rondo's perceived weaknesses, the one thing he does better than anyone else on the team is get Cousins the ball in position to score. That takes the pressure off of Cousins to always have to create with his back to the basket. The player who's suffered the most this year with the more PG dominant offense is probably Rudy Gay because he was our main ball handler on the perimeter last year and this year he wasn't given much of a chance to find a rhythm as a scorer. But you could point to Collison or Belinelli as players that were taking the ball out of his hands this season as much as Rondo. I think George Karl's love of 3 and 4 guard lineups is what marginalized Rudy Gay this season, there's no reason why he couldn't still be a strong second option, particularly if we retain a low usage PG like Rondo who handles the ball a lot but prefers to finish off possessions with a pass instead of a shot. I don't know that I want Rudy back unless he commits himself to playing defense more than he ever has in his career, but there's no reason why it couldn't work offensively.

I absolutely do not want to see both Rondo & Gay back next season. I'd be okay with Rondo walking and Gay being traded (assuming the Kings get a decent return for him) but I don't see any team built around those three players being successful. If I had to pick one of the two to return I'd rather see Rondo than Gay. Rajon's game works with Cousins where Rudy's has never been a great fit. Both Rondo and Gay are ball dominant players and between the two I'd rather have the guy who is looking to setup teammates with his ball dominance rather than the guy who is trying to work for his own shot.

Finally, both guys seem capable of playing good defense but lacking in the desire to do so regularly. Honestly I'd love to see Rudy traded for something like Ariza and the Rockets pick (#14).

 

[hrdboild]

You can't say no doubt there is always doubt has to be when you consider in the last 3-4 years the core of Rudy/Rondo/Cousins has done nothing in terms of winning separate or together.

There's unfair statements and then there's this. Were we even trying to win here the last two seasons? In 2013/2014 we were trying to rebuild the roster and the team culture. Then the 2014/2015 season was swallowed up in petty in-fighting about offensive philosophy, pace, and which ego was going to win control of the front office. This is the first season you can even say that we made an effort to compete for something and George Karl was smack dab in the middle of all of it. Rondo spent most of that time recovering from ACL surgery. This is the first season he looked completely healthy and he matched or exceeded the production that got him to 4 straight All-Star games with Boston. We were a top 5 offense in almost every category. That's good enough to win if the defense isn't historically bad, which... of course #Kang, it was exactly that.

 

[Bricklayer]

You can't say no doubt there is always doubt has to be when you consider in the last 3-4 years the core of Rudy/Rondo/Cousins has done nothing in terms of winning separate or together.

Maybe, but a bit like the IT year a couple of years ago, and the Collison year last year, we just simply haven't been able to keep them all on the floor at once (although the last week or two we've been doing it on purpose). On the year:

Rondo/Gay/Cuz oncourt = 51 games 25-26
one or more missing = 29 games Record: 7-22

With everything. With drama. With coaching, whatever. When our three best players are all on the court this year we have been a .500 team. If you could assure health next season, add a Ryan Anderson and an NBA caliber SG, add a compatible coach, having a .500 core without all that stuff would be a solid base for a playoff team.

 

[hrdboild]

I absolutely do not want to see both Rondo & Gay back next season. I'd be okay with Rondo walking and Gay being traded (assuming the Kings get a decent return for him) but I don't see any team built around those three players being successful. If I had to pick one of the two to return I'd rather see Rondo than Gay. Rajon's game works with Cousins where Rudy's has never been a great fit. Both Rondo and Gay are ball dominant players and between the two I'd rather have the guy who is looking to setup teammates with his ball dominance rather than the guy who is trying to work for his own shot.

Finally, both guys seem capable of playing good defense but lacking in the desire to do so regularly. Honestly I'd love to see Rudy traded for something like Ariza and the Rockets pick (#14).

I don't want Rudy Gay back either, but I don't think it was a bad combination on offense. If we could take back all the bad shots taken by Belinelli, Anderson, and McLemore and give them to someone else we would have won a lot more games this season. Enough to make the playoffs? Probably not without some kind of defensive commitment, but I don't think it was the offense that was broken.

 

[funkykingston]

Maybe, but a bit like the IT year a couple of years ago, and the Collison year last year, we just simply haven't been able to keep them all on the floor at once (although the last week or two we've been doing it on purpose). On the year:

Rondo/Gay/Cuz oncourt = 51 games 25-26
one or more missing = 29 games Record: 7-22

With everything. With drama. With coaching, whatever. When our three best players are all on the court this year we have been a .500 team. If you could assure health next season, add a Ryan Anderson and an NBA caliber SG, add a compatible coach, having a .500 core without all that stuff would be a solid base for a playoff team.

If the Kings keep Gay & Cousins and re-sign Rondo their only other avenues to improve will be the lottery pick (likely 8th or 9th unless the Kings finally get lucky in the lottery) and whatever caproom is left. Rondo turned down a 5 year $70 million extension from Boston in 2014 so I have a hard time thinking he'll take anything less than $16 - $18 million per season with the increased cap and his resurgent play this year. Even if the Kings renounce their rights to Moreland, let Dukan and Acy go and Butler, Curry and Anderson all opt out the team would still only have around $8-$10 million in caproom after resigning Rondo. That's won't be enough to get Ryan Anderson or Bazemore or anyone of real impact on the FA market. And of course they'll only have 9 players under contract - 10 when they sign their draft pick and need to fill 5 roster spots.

This is what I've been getting at with Rondo. If he's resigned the Kings won't have the ability to really improve any other areas via free agency unless they can find a team that would take, say Belinelli for a future 2nd without sending any salary back to the Kings. And I'm pretty sure Curry will opt out so if the Kings want him back that will likely eat into what little caproom is left after Rondo is signed to the tune of maybe $3 or $4 million.

If the Kings resign Rondo and don't trade Gay then there won't be caproom, there won't be many tradeable assets (Collison? Koufos? would anyone still see potential in McLemore?) and few avenues to improve the roster beyond very minor signings. The Kings would be counting on essentially a new coach being the difference between the lottery and the playoffs.

I don't want Rudy Gay back either, but I don't think it was a bad combination on offense. If we could take back all the bad shots taken by Belinelli, Anderson, and McLemore and give them to someone else we would have won a lot more games this season. Enough to make the playoffs? Probably not without some kind of defensive commitment, but I don't think it was the offense that was broken.

The Kings put up plenty of points with Karl's offense but Rudy Gay had a down year this season. Whether that's because he's not a good fit for the dribble drive/Karl's offense or because adding Rondo meant he had the ball in his hands less but excluding his rookie year Rudy had career lows in FGM, FGA, points and assists this season. His rebounds were a career high which is probably due in part to the pace the team played at and the number of rebounds available as Rondo had his second best rebounding year too.

I just don't think Rudy's game meshes with Rondo's all that well. Rudy isn't a catch-and-shoot, backdoor cut type wing and I think that's the best fit for what Rondo does. Add in that both guys struggle with their outside shot and that both are uh, less than intense on the defensive end and I don't like the fit. I also don't like that Rudy's efficiency plummets when he is asked to be the primary scorer. That's a poor quality to have in the guy that is your #2 option on offense.